ATD2011 Louis Magnus Finals: (1) Regina Pats vs. (3) North Pole Penguinators

[Velociraptor]

Regina Pats

Head Coach: Fred Shero

Johnny Bucyk - Mark Messier (C) - Teemu Selanne
Jack Adams - Pierre Turgeon - Wayne Cashman (A)
Mel Bridgman - Murray Oliver - Bob Nevin
Dubbie Kerr - Cal Gardner - Al MacAdam
Spares: Bob MacMillan, Andre Boudrias

King Clancy - Hap Day (A)
Jim Neilson (A) - Leo Reise Jr.
Wade Redden - Joe Watson
Spares: Bryan McCabe, Lou Fontinato

Tony Esposito
Roger Crozier


vs.


North Pole Penguinators

Head Coach: Bob Johnson
Assistant Coach: Barry Trotz

Cy Denneny - Duke Keats (A) - Phil Watson
Baldy Northcott - Milan Novy - Vladimir Martinec
Joe Klukay - Craig MacTavish - Dirk Graham (A)
Jaroslav Jirik - Tom Lysiak - Corb Denneny
Spares: Fred Whitcroft, Bobby Gould

Lester Patrick (C) - Earl Seibert
Frank Patrick - Vasili Pervukhin
Terry Harper - Yuri Liapkin
Spares: Weldy Young

Johnny Bower
Dave Kerr
​

Click to read more...

 

[Velociraptor]

Regina Pats

PP1: Bucyk - Messier - Selanne- Clancy - Day
PP2: Adams - Turgeon - Cashman - Neilson - Redden

PK1: Messier - Nevin - Neilson - Day
PK2: Bridgman - Oliver - Watson - Reise

North Pole Penguinators

PP1: Denneny - Keats - Watson - Patrick - Liapkin
PP2: Northcott/Jirik - Novy - Martinec - Patrick - Liapkin

PK1: Klukay - Graham - Harper - Seibert
PK2: Northcott - MacTavish - Patrick - Pervukhin

 

[jarek]

My lineup isn't finalized yet, I'm probably going to make some changes.. give me until tomorrow.

One interesting thing I do want to point out.. both 4th line LWs in this series were wingers for the opposite GM's MLD team in MLD 2010.

 

[Velociraptor]

My lineup isn't finalized yet, I'm probably going to make some changes.. give me until tomorrow.

I'll change the OP roster when applicable.

 

[jarek]

The only thing I'm changing is my PK3.. just remove it all together. My PK spares are listed in my roster thread.

 

[seventieslord]

In this series I intend to prove that all my players are above average at everything.

 

[Dreakmur]

In this series I intend to prove that all my players are above average at everything.

That sounds familiar... but I can't think of who else is trying to do that...

 

[jarek]

In this series I intend to prove that all my players are above average at everything.

Really? I guess you're in trouble then. All my players are above above-average at everything.

 

[MadArcand]

I want to see Pierre Turgeon, the above-average fighter!

 

[seventieslord]

I want to see Pierre Turgeon, the above-average fighter!

I was a few years older than Pierre. But growing up, he was always the stronger one. He was able to take me once he was about 7 years old. I would say he was an above average fighter for sure. I still have the scratch marks to prove it.

This should be an interesting series though. Both jarek and I (and at least three other still active GMs) apparently live by the "can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs" mantra and I can't help but think we've made ourselves unpopular with some others here. jarek earned redemption last round with his 5-game victory over HomeNugget, but I can't see any reason other than politics for North Pole to place below Detroit in the regular season standings, a newbie team with a couple glaring holes, even if it was arguably the best newbie team. And Regina somehow took 7 games to squeak by a team who missed practically every pick and whose 2nd line was filled out with dregs from the 15th and 22nd rounds!

Whatever, it's a new round now. Voters will have to "pick their poison".

 

[BraveCanadian]

but I can't see any reason other than politics for North Pole to place below Detroit in the regular season standings,

Dionne, Howe and Thornton are three pretty big reasons - particularly regular season reasons.

Whatever, it's a new round now. Voters will have to "pick their poison".

I'm going to need to break out the popcorn to read this thread when the two of you get to overselling your players!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just to be clear, Regina dominated game 7 in their past series, so it wasn't quite "squeaking by."

And I thought the Detroit Riots were an outstanding regular season team. They had clear holes on the lower units (and spares!) but the top units were very strong IMO. Seriously, Joe Thornton would be one of the elite second liners of the draft if it weren't for his playoff record.

Carry on...

 

[jarek]

If I have time later tonight, I'll make some opening comments (that could possibly be my closing comments as well - I'm busy this week).

 

[seventieslord]

Just to be clear, Regina dominated game 7 in their past series, so it wasn't quite "squeaking by."

And I thought the Detroit Riots were an outstanding regular season team. They had clear holes on the lower units (and spares!) but the top units were very strong IMO. Seriously, Joe Thornton would be one of the elite second liners of the draft if it weren't for his playoff record.

Carry on...

Yeah, you guys are right about the Riots having a few really regular season-centric players.

I don't know or care to know what the voting totals were, but it's little consolation that Regina "dominated" game 7. To me that says it was voted closer than a series that ended in 6, but not as close as one that had a tight 7th game. Like 12-10, or maybe 13-9.

 

[MadArcand]

This should be an interesting series though. Both jarek and I (and at least three other still active GMs) apparently live by the "can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs" mantra and I can't help but think we've made ourselves unpopular with some others here. jarek earned redemption last round with his 5-game victory over HomeNugget, but I can't see any reason other than politics for North Pole to place below Detroit in the regular season standings, a newbie team with a couple glaring holes, even if it was arguably the best newbie team. And Regina somehow took 7 games to squeak by a team who missed practically every pick and whose 2nd line was filled out with dregs from the 15th and 22nd rounds!

Whatever, it's a new round now. Voters will have to "pick their poison".

I might regret being honest, but I'm drunk enough and about to go to the Canada - Sweden match (to curse at the damned Swedes )so...

C'mon, Kenora was actually a very good team - I picked your team and Kenora as the two top ones in the division. It was close, and it was IMO an early division finals.

Detroit vs. jarek was, to me, also a close matchup. Yes Detroit's team had holes - but so did jarek's. In fact, both teams had spots in the lineup that made me cringe at the very least.

 

[jarek]

See, why didn't you bring up that my team had holes during assassinations? Or during my series with Detroit? I would like to be able to defend my team, but I can't do it if I don't know what people are worried about!

 

[MadArcand]

2nd line, bottom 4 on D, MacTavish. Not all of that are holes per se ('cept MacTavish), I'd just like to hear some 'propaganda' on how you're planning for them to play.

That said, off to the last game in town.

 

[jarek]

Excuse me? You have a problem with my 2nd line? Wow..

Would also like to hear why you have a problem with bottom-4 on D, as well as why MacTavish, the Oilers' most used penalty killing forward during their dynasty years who is very highly thought of by a lot of people, is a problem as well.

 

[Sturminator]

North Pole's second line is one of the best in the draft, in my opinion, and is probably the single outstanding strength of the team. Criticism of the bottom-4 D may have some merit, but I don't see the problem with MacTavish on a pure checking line. He maybe wasn't the greatest value where jarek took him, but he fits fine between Klukay and Graham.

 

[seventieslord]

Nothing wrong with Northcott as a 2nd line glue guy of course. He's similar to Prentice or Oatman. Martinec is an outstanding 2nd line RW as well. It's Novy that probably has some concerned about its effectiveness, including me. There's lots to like, there's some not to like, and there are question marks.

Last draft jarek and I got cold feet on taking him to center a 3rd scoring/checking line and ended up taking MacLeish over him. MacLeish is (in the regular season, at least), one of the weakest 2nd line centers offensively. Now Novy may or may not be better than him, but how much better? And at 31 he came to the NHL and didn't accomplish a heck of a lot - how do we project this into how good he'd have been in the NHL throughout his 20s? Was he a top-10 scorer? top-20? A perrennial 65-75 point guy like Lysiak? It's really tough to say.

Almost every other 2nd line center in the league is a known commodity as far as their North American offensive production is concerned. I would be scared ****less of taking Novy, personally.

 

[MadArcand]

Excuse me? You have a problem with my 2nd line? Wow..

Would also like to hear why you have a problem with bottom-4 on D, as well as why MacTavish, the Oilers' most used penalty killing forward during their dynasty years who is very highly thought of by a lot of people, is a problem as well.

Not a big fan of Novy there, and while Martinec and Northcott are fine by themselves, I think the line will have ton of trouble handling physical opposition.

MacT is kinda weak offensively, but Sturm has a point that on a line with Klukay and Graham he'll work out.

As for the bottom 4, I only truly like Harper there (a lot, actually). Of course I'm open to any arguments as to the greatness of Pervukhin and Liapkin, but from all I heard and with no bio of yours to convince me otherwise they're on the low end of the scale in their slots. Patrick I can live with.

 

[jarek]

Not a big fan of Novy there, and while Martinec and Northcott are fine by themselves, I think the line will have ton of trouble handling physical opposition.

MacT is kinda weak offensively, but Sturm has a point that on a line with Klukay and Graham he'll work out.

As for the bottom 4, I only truly like Harper there (a lot, actually). Of course I'm open to any arguments as to the greatness of Pervukhin and Liapkin, but from all I heard and with no bio of yours to convince me otherwise they're on the low end of the scale in their slots. Patrick I can live with.

Pervukhin there really isn't much on, but Kings of the Ice mentioned that for him there were no slumps, nor opponents he could not handle. He was also very respectable offensively, including leading an Olympics in assists (all skaters, not just defensemen). They also mention that the Pervukhin - Bilya pairing was just as dependable as the Fetisov pairing (I would imagine this refers to their defensive play).

Liapkin was an elite scorer of the USSR. He had something ridiculous like 9 top-3's in scoring among defensemen during his prime, much of which was in direct competition to Fetisov, Lutchenko, and all those great defensemen of the 70s. I'm willing to accept that he likely wasn't anything special defensively, although until conclusive proof is shown, I refuse to believe he was outright bad. That is perfectly balanced out by Harper being there, regardless.

Novy.. I don't know what else to say. I've posted his scoring finishes, which I will re-post here:

G 1st (1975, 1976, 1977, 1978), 2nd (1973, 1974, 1979, 1982), 3rd (1980, 1981), 9th (1972)
A 1st (1977, 1981, 1982), 2nd (1976, 1978, 1980), 5th (1979), 6th (1975), 10th (1971, 1974)
P 1st (1976, 1977, 1978, 1981, 1982), 2nd (1974, 1975, 1979, 1980), 3rd (1973), 9th (1972)

Olympics

1976: 2nd in goals(1st on team), 6th in points (2nd on team)
1980: 2nd in goals (2nd on team), 2nd in assists (1st on team), 1st in points

WEC-A

1976: 1st in goals, 10th in assists (4th on team), 3rd in points (3rd on team)
1977: 2nd in assists (1st on team), 3rd in points (1st on team)
1981: 8th in goals (2nd on team). 2nd on team in points

Canada Cup

1977: 1st in goals, 4th on team in assists, 4th in points (1st on team)

A few users who watched him play (VMBM and jkrx, specifically) indicated to me that he was a good defensive player and penalty killer. The excerpt from newspaper reports regarding one specific penalty kill he had against Canada, as well as him being called a "good defensive center" in his draft profile seems to support this. And while I suspect that his toughness is likely questionable, Dreakmur has the quote about him being called the answer to Bobby Clarke. To be scared ****less of having him on your team is ignorant at best, downright comical at worst, and he's surrounded by two of the best guys in their roles for 2nd line players (one of which he has known chemistry with - Martinec).

As far as Martinec, I have also heard of great praise for his intangibles game, specifically defensive play (both VMBM and jkrx confirming this). Moreover, he got beat on a ton by the Soviets, them going as far as to injure him purposely to take him out of action. They were that scared of him. And he's on my SECOND line.

I don't see why physicality should be a problem for my second line. Check out this bio from HHH:

http://lcforum.leafscentral.ca/show...III-Bio-Thread?p=493713&viewfull=1#post493713

And Martinec is a guy who I could see as being a scrappy little bugger, maybe not overpowering, but certainly not someone who will be intimidated. As well, even though it's almost certainly hyperbole, Novy being named the answer to Bobby Clarke should say much about his physicality.

Also, this line is blazing fast, between Martinec and Northcott, so I don't think they will suffer too much in physicality due to that speed.

However, if it will better serve my team, I can move Martinec up to the first line and move Phil Watson down to the second line to balance the lines out more physically, but I don't think it should be necessary.

 

[seventieslord]

Look, I like Northcott and have no problem with him there, but there's really not much to that bio. There are three good newspaper quotes (all together in the large bubble) and then some in-game quotes that don't say much, and then three sources that everyone has access to (LOH, UH, Pelletier), with the Pelletier source being posted in two parts which makes the bio look more beefed up.

He's a good 2nd line glue guy. There is definitely much work to do in proving he's elite.

As for Novy, yes, I am ignorant about him. So is just about everyone else here, including you. In the truest sense of the word, not the insulting context. We know next to nothing about Novy. What if he had played in the NHL from age 20 until age 30 (1972-1982)? What do you suggest his scoring finishes might have looked like? His point totals? His career line? We were probably on the right track when we had our 3rd line center spot down to him and MacLeish. A Rick MacLeish-like resume is probably close to what he was looking at if he had the chance to play in the NHL for his best years. Am I wrong? Maybe. Maybe you are. Who the heck really knows?

 

[jarek]

Look, I like Northcott and have no problem with him there, but there's really not much to that bio. There are three good newspaper quotes (all together in the large bubble) and then some in-game quotes that don't say much, and then three sources that everyone has access to (LOH, UH, Pelletier), with the Pelletier source being posted in two parts which makes the bio look more beefed up.

He's a good 2nd line glue guy. There is definitely much work to do in proving he's elite.

As for Novy, yes, I am ignorant about him. So is just about everyone else here, including you. In the truest sense of the word, not the insulting context. We know next to nothing about Novy. What if he had played in the NHL from age 20 until age 30 (1972-1982)? What do you suggest his scoring finishes might have looked like? His point totals? His career line? We were probably on the right track when we had our 3rd line center spot down to him and MacLeish. A Rick MacLeish-like resume is probably close to what he was looking at if he had the chance to play in the NHL for his best years. Am I wrong? Maybe. Maybe you are. Who the heck really knows?

I think it's absolutely hysterical to suggest that Novy would have had a career similar to MacLeish's based on how badly he dominated the Czech league (which was filled with good players at the very top during his prime). I was not ignorant about him, I am not ignorant about him now. I actually wanted him infinity times more than MacLeish, but you didn't back down. VMBM and jkrx gave me a lot of insight into how he was as a player, which I have briefly presented here. If you want, they can argue their case here, I don't have time to dig up what they told me (literally.. I'd have to re-ask VMBM, because I don't think I have his PMs anymore, and I'd have to dig through a monstrous Trillian log to grab what jkrx said).

As for Northcott, TDMM views him as an elite 2nd line glue guy. You can ask him why. Those quotes say that he was a tough, scrappy player, was very fast and was a strong defensive player. I'm not expecting much offensively out of him on a line that includes Novy and Martinec.

Not much else to say on the matter, any further arguing will drive us around in circles. Anyone have any other questions?

 

[seventieslord]

I think it's absolutely hysterical to suggest that Novy would have had a career similar to MacLeish's based on how badly he dominated the Czech league (which was filled with good players at the very top during his prime).

I'm glad you have such a great sense of humour that you find all my jokes so hysterical...

Look, MacLeish didn't have a "bad" career or anything. The guy was 4th in NHL scoring twice and top-20 two other times.

I recall Sturm saying something before about question mark players, and I agree. You look at what was the top-end potential value of the guy (in Novy's case, a perrennial top-5 scorer) and the bottom-end potential (he might have been a career NHL 2nd liner who topped out at 65 points and frequently had 50) and then look at the likelihood of each value and make your assessment somewhere in between based on those likelihoods. It's an inexact science, but what else can we do? I'm certainly not trying to make you believe he was the latter, but there is a hint of you trying to make me believe he is the former. I really doubt he was.

You know what might help to put Novy into context a little better? Take a look at a few comparable Czech league players, such as Nedomansky, and show what they did in the WHA/NHL and at what age. Projections can at least be attempted from that.

Nedomansky, for example, got a chance to show what he could do in the NHL at 34-35 and scored 147 points in 159 games those years. It stands to reason that in his 20s he was probably capable of over a point per game in the NHL. With Novy we have a pretty pedestrian season in which he was only 31. It's really hard to project that backwards. I realize that was a bit of a "feeling out" season, and Ned himself had one too.

We have enough info to make a reasonable conclusion about Nedomansky. Do we have enough information about Nedomansky or another Czech compared with Novy domestically, or other top international players in tournaments, to make a reasonable conclusion about Novy? I'm not asking because I think the answer's no. There might be good comparables and I'd like you to demonstrate them.

In the absence of that, looking at the upper and lower end and going from there is the best we can do, and honestly, MacLeish is closer to the top end than the bottom end. I'm being more than fair to you here.

I was not ignorant about him, I am not ignorant about him now. I actually wanted him infinity times more than MacLeish, but you didn't back down.

I checked my old emails. You are right about this. Doesn't mean you are right about the player, but it does show neither of us are flip-flopping here.

As for Northcott, TDMM views him as an elite 2nd line glue guy. You can ask him why.

Did you seriously just do that?

Those quotes say that he was a tough, scrappy player, was very fast and was a strong defensive player. I'm not expecting much offensively out of him on a line that includes Novy and Martinec.

Some more quotes describing him during his career would be great. There's just not much there. I mean, I agree with the canon opinion of him and I've said to you privately that Northcott "can play on my team any day" but to be an elite glue guy you'd think he'd be universally regarded as elite at something. Maybe he is, but even if all those quotes said the exact same thing in them, there's not enough substance there to call it universal.