ATD2011 Foster Hewitt Finals: (1) Minnesota Fighting Saints vs. (2) Hartford Whalers

[Velociraptor]

Minnesota Fighting Saints

Head Coach: Lester Patrick

Dickie Moore - Peter Stastny - Yvan Cournoyer (C)
Gordie Roberts - Russell Bowie (A) - Sergei Makarov
Murray Murdoch - Bobby Holik - Alf Skinner
Ab McDonald - Jaroslav Holik - Lorne Carr
Spares: Bohuslav Stastny, Sami Pahlsson

Ernie Johnson - Sergei Zubov
Lloyd Cook (A) - Art Duncan
Don Awrey - Jeff Beukeboom
Spares: Sami Salo, Yuri Fedorov

Georges Vezina
Jirí Králík


vs.


Hartford Whalers

Coach: Peter Laviolette
Assistant Coach: Alf Smith

Busher Jackson - Bobby Clarke (C) - Punch Broadbent
J.P. Parise - Joe Nieuwendyk (A) - Bill Mosienko
Dave Trottier - Joel Otto - John McKenzie
Doc Romnes - Erich Kühnhackl - Pat Verbeek
Spares: Igor Liba, Ladislav Trojak

Herb Gardiner (A) - Börje Salming
Paul Reinhart - Ott Heller
Glen Wesley - Phil Russell
Spares: Steve Chiasson

Ed Belfour
Riley Hern​

Click to read more...

 

[Velociraptor]

Minnesota Fighting Saints

PP1: Moore - Stastny - Cournoyer - Johnson - Zubov
PP2: Roberts - Bowie - Makarov - Cook - Duncan

PK1: Murdoch - Cournoyer - Johnson - Awrey
PK2: Bowie - McDonald - Cook- Beukeboom


Hartford Whalers

PP1: Jackson - Nieuwendyk - Clarke - Reinhart - Salming
PP2: Broadbent - Kühnhackl - Mosienko - Gardiner - Heller

PK1: Clarke - Broadbent - Gardiner - Salming
PK2: Trottier - Otto - Wesley - Heller

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Updated roster...

Minnesota Fighting Saints

GM: Nalyd Psycho
Head Coach: Lester Patrick
Captain: Yvan Cournoyer
Assistant Captains: Lloyd Cook & Russell Bowie

#12 Dickie Moore-#26 Peter Stastny-#21 Yvan Cournoyer
#11 Gordie Roberts-#13 Russell Bowie-#24 Sergei Makarov
#9 Murray Murdoch-#16 Bobby Holik-#3 Alf Skinner
#14 Ab McDonald-#5 Jaroslav Holik-#24 Sergei Makarov
#62 Sami Pahlsson*

#77 Ernie Johnson-#56 Sergei Zubov
#8 Lloyd Cook-#7 Art Duncan
#6 Don Awrey/#4 Yuri Fedorov-#23 Jeff Beukeboom/#65 Sami Salo

#1 Georges Vezina
#2 Jirí Králík

Spares: #22 Bohuslav Stastny, #19 Lorne Carr, #65 Sami Salo/#23 Jeff Beukeboom, #4 Yuri Fedorov/#6 Don Awrey

First Power Play Unit:
Moore-Stastny-Cournoyer
Bowie-Zubov

Second Power Play Unit:
Roberts-J. Holik-Makarov
Cook-Duncan

First Penalty Kill Unit:
Pahlsson**-McDonald
Johnson-Awrey/Beukeboom

Second Penalty Kill Unit:
Murdoch-Skinner
Cook-Duncan
*Pahlsson will not take a regular shift outside of the PK, but, will take key defensive zone face-offs.
**Pahlsson is always the centre on the first shift of a PK, regardless of which unit is fresher and thus playing. If a second shift change is to occur, then Pahlsson returns.
​

 

[vecens24]

So are you double shifting Makarov and dressing 7 DMen or what?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm confused by the updated lineup too. Do you mean that all 4 bottom pairing defensemen will see action at some point? It would be less confusing of you explained how you planned on using them.

I remember you said you wanted Makarov to double shift onto the 4th line and then play Pahlsson just on the PK. But I still don't think it's even close to possible for Pahlsson to play the entire PK, especially at forward.

 

[Sturminator]

It's not clear to me who Pahlsson replaces in the lineup, nevermind how he should be expected to play every minute of the penalty kill.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

It's not clear to me who Pahlsson replaces in the lineup, nevermind how he should be expected to play every minute of the penalty kill.

Makarov is the 2nd and 4th line RW. Including Pahlsson, there are only 12 different forwards listed there.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I'm confused by the updated lineup too. Do you mean that all 4 bottom pairing defensemen will see action at some point? It would be less confusing of you explained how you planned on using them.

I remember you said you wanted Makarov to double shift onto the 4th line and then play Pahlsson just on the PK. But I still don't think it's even close to possible for Pahlsson to play the entire PK, especially at forward.

He wouldn't necessarily play every minute, but he would be extra shifted on the PK. I'll update it.

As for the defence. Alternating games of Fedorov-Beukeboom and Awrey-Salo.

 

[Sturminator]

Makarov is the 2nd and 4th line RW. Including Pahlsson, there are only 12 different forwards listed there.

Ah...yes. But isn't this putting Makarov at 25 minutes per game, at least? I mean...an occasional double shift is doable, but a double line role seems a little much.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ah...yes. But isn't this putting Makarov at 25 minutes per game, at least? I mean...an occasional double shift is doable, but a double line role seems a little much.

It should probably be listed as Pahlsson / Makarov, I think.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Ah...yes. But isn't this putting Makarov at 25 minutes per game, at least? I mean...an occasional double shift is doable, but a double line role seems a little much.

4th lines rarely get huge minutes and keep in mind Makarov is second PP unit. But yes, Pahlsson will be on the line in defensive situations, with Makarov in offensive situations. Thing is, I want Makarov to get 20 minutes a game...

 

[MadArcand]

I'll try to get the same line matching as against Reen whenever possible - 1v1, 2v3, 3v2, 4v4. Clarke can be extra effective against Stastny.

A very quick line comparison:

Line 1 - Nalyd has the edge on wings, as while the gap between Moore and Jackson is minimal, the gap between Cournoyer and Broadbent is obvious. OTOH Clarke is vastly superior to Stastny on C. I'd call it even.

Line 2 - obvious edge to Nalyd's line, which might just be the best 2nd line in the draft, mostly courtesy of Makarov. I'll try to match Trottier against Makarov to minimize the threat and to get Makarov off his game. What's important that Trottier can keep up with Makarov.

Line 3 - I'd say obvious edge to me, my wingers are flat out better all-around players and all my players are the better checkers.

Line 4 - not a fan of Nalyd's double-shifting of Makarov plan, but it makes the lines about even. I'm very much against Pahlsson even being in the ATD.

Overall on forward corps, one thing that sticks out to me is that I should be able to dominate in the faceoff circle. Nalyd's forwards are more offensively focused while mine focus on two-way play. I also have obvious edge in physical play.

 

[MadArcand]

Onto defense:

- I think my top pairing is clearly better, but it's not like Nalyd's pairing ain't good, it's just that it's clear that Salming is the best here by a fairly large margin and I think Zubov comes easily last
- once again, I think I have a clear edge on second pairing, courtesy of Heller
- Russell and Wesley are IMO clearly better than anyone of the 4 guys Nalyd plans to alternate on the bottom pairing - plus two of them are offensive blackholes, and Salo is made of glass.

I think I have a definite and obvious edge on the defense.

I also think I have a strong edge in goal with Belfour over Vezina (and Hern over Kralik, should it come to that).

Coach-wise, Patrick > Lavi, but Patrick !> Lavi + Smith, IMO. But I'd like to hear others' thoughts on the coaching situation, it's hard to compare one coach to two.

PPs are fairly comparable. PKs are strongly in my favor.

 

[Sturminator]

- I think my top pairing is clearly better, but it's not like Nalyd's pairing ain't good, it's just that it's clear that Salming is the best here by a fairly large margin and I think Zubov comes easily last

Agree generally, though I'm not sure there's much difference in overall quality between Zubov and Gardiner. Gardiner may be more appropriate for a top pairing, though, because he doesn't have any obvious weaknesses, while Zubov's softness is exploitable.

I also think I have a strong edge in goal with Belfour over Vezina

I'm not so sure. The more we uncover about this era, the more it appears that Georges Vezina has been underrated in the ATD relative to his peers, specifically Benedict. Rather than helping his legacy, dying young may well have hurt Vezina's legacy because we all just assumed that he was unfairly lionized due to the circumstances. Looking over contemporary publications, however, one gets the idea that there was little seperating Vezina and Benedict. I'm not quite ready to put Vezina in the Benedict category yet, but I am ready to put him on Belfour's level. I think goaltending in this series is probably a saw-off.

Coach-wise, Patrick > Lavi, but Patrick !> Lavi + Smith, IMO. But I'd like to hear others' thoughts on the coaching situation, it's hard to compare one coach to two.

Lester Patrick was a fantastic coach and a real innovator. He was good with the players, could coach an offensive or a defensive team, and could even play goalie. I don't honestly think Peter Laviolette plus a hundred assistants is as good as one Lester Patrick. There is a good argument that Patrick is in the Blake/Arbour class of coaches in this thing.

PPs are fairly comparable. PKs are strongly in my favor.

I really want to see if Nalyd is going to address the issue of Moose Johnson on his top unit powerplay. I don't question Johnson's ability overall, but I do have serious questions about his puckhandling at this level, and against a top unit PK like Hartford's, his presence at the point is a potential achilles heel.

I don't know if Nalyd hasn't addressed this issue due to an oversight or if he really believes that Johnson should quarterback a first unit ATD powerplay.

Nalyd's second unit PP forwards are unambiguously better than yours, but in my opinion, until he does something about Johnson, I can't give him an advantage on the powerplay, overall.

Agree that your PK is better.

 

[MadArcand]

Well, the PP forwards on 2nd PP thing is Makarov effect. Makarov is IMO a good first liner, he's a luxury on 2nd line and PP. But Roberts and Holik are hardly better than Broadbent and Kuhnhackl.

As for Vezina, he may very well be underrated. But I also think Belfour is quite underrated - he's arguably pretty close to Brodeur (who might be overrated OTOH). I'd also say I have clear edge in backup, so I still see the goaltending as being in my favor.

The coaching, you may be right. Too bad there's not much info on Smith, as success-wise, he did very well.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Mad, Herb Gardiner's name appeared quite a few times in the dishing the dirt thread. Between that and the better quotes in your profile, I think you can put together a better picture of what he did in his non-Hart years. I think he's probably better than Zubov but I'm not sure. I've already made my feeling about Zubov and his skillset on the top pair well known... Heh.

Belfour is underrated (this is the first draft ever that he was drafted in an appropriate place relative to other goalies), but Vezina is perhaps moreso. I pretty much agree with sturm - the ATD canon that Benedict was the best goalie of the era by far seems to be falling apart as we acquire more information.

 

[Sturminator]

Well, the PP forwards on 2nd PP thing is Makarov effect. Makarov is IMO a good first liner, he's a luxury on 2nd line and PP. But Roberts and Holik are hardly better than Broadbent and Kuhnhackl.

I wrote that post before realizing that Nalyd has already changed his PP lineup. He took out Johnson and put Bowie in on the second point of the first unit. Bowie had been centering the second unit, and is now replaced by Holik. This was a good move for the Saints' first unit, but obviously Holik is no Bowie on the second unit. Outside of Makarov, the Saints' second unit is now pretty mediocre looking, but obviously Makarov is a nice luxury to have.

edit: I will add that the Bowie / Zubov duo, while skilled, looks vulnerable to strong counterattacking penalty-killers.

Mad, I'm curious to see how you intend to use your physical advantage in this series. I don't know if you're going to beat these Saints on skill alone, but you may be able to wear them down and keep the puck away from them, especially that second line, which looks vulnerable to a unit which can cycle the puck.

 

[MadArcand]

Mad, I'm curious to see how you intend to use your physical advantage in this series. I don't know if you're going to beat these Saints on skill alone, but you may be able to wear them down and keep the puck away from them, especially that second line, which looks vulnerable to a unit which can cycle the puck.

Clarke vs. Stastny
Trottier vs. Makarov
Otto vs. Bowie
Jackson/Parise/Trottier vs. Zubov/Salo

These are the main areas where I expect superior physicality to have the most effect. My LWs should really do a number on the soft right side of Saints' defense.

 

[Sturminator]

Clarke vs. Stastny
Trottier vs. Makarov
Otto vs. Bowie
Jackson/Parise/Trottier vs. Zubov/Salo

So the Clarke line vs. the Stastny line and your 3rd line vs. his 2nd line? That's probably the approach I would take, as well. You are on visiting ice and have a coaching disadvantage here, so you can't exactly dictate the matchups, but using only your 1st and 3rd lines for defensive zone draws (as much as possible) would go a long way to ensuring you the matchups you want.

The only matchup your opponent really wants and the only one you really need to avoid is 2nd line vs. 2nd line.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

edit: I will add that the Bowie / Zubov duo, while skilled, looks vulnerable to strong counterattacking penalty-killers.

Zubov was widely recognized as the best of his generation at holding the line on the powerplay.

 

[Sturminator]

Zubov was widely recognized as the best of his generation at holding the line on the powerplay.

Huh? Zubov was good at holding the zone, but I'm not sure how wide the recognition is that he was the best of his generation. And Bowie?

 

[MadArcand]

No arguments whatsoever from Nalyd?

A quick summary of why I think I have the edge:

- clearly better D all around
- superior goaltending
- superior physical play
- superior two-way play of forwards
- Clarke shuts down Stastny
- 3rd line shuts down Nalyd's 2nd

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Honestly, I find the whole argument thing boring, and this game is supposed to be fun...

 

[seventieslord]

Well, it can certainly get boring as the playoffs wear on... but in the first couple of rounds it's a good idea to reaffirm your team's strengths.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Well, it can certainly get boring as the playoffs wear on... but in the first couple of rounds it's a good idea to reaffirm your team's strengths.

Good idea, maybe, but I find the whole aggressive "let's fight" attitude that emerges at this point extremely distasteful.