ATD2010 Rene Lecavalier 1st round: Regina Pats (3) vs. Detroit Vipers (6)

[VanIslander]

The Rene Lecavalier Division Quarterfinal Round:


Regina Pats

coach Fred Shero

Dany Heatley - Stan Mikita - Lanny McDonald (A)
Dean Prentice - Ron Francis (C) - Glenn Anderson
Vic Stasiuk - Rick MacLeish - Mark Recchi
Harry P. Watson - Marty Walsh - Eddie Oatman
Bernie Nicholls, Pit Martin

Sprague Cleghorn (A) - Bill Quackenbush
Moose Johnson - Bill White
Phil Russell - Teppo Numminen
Glen Wesley

Bernie Parent
John Vanbiesbrouck


vs.


Detroit Vipers

coach Hap Day

Gord Roberts - Max Bentley - Teemu Selanne
Roy Conacher (A) - Duke Keats - Bernie Morris
Jean-Paul Parise - Phil Goyette - Hec Kilrea
Mike McPhee - Steve Kasper - Bobby Schmautz
Herb Cain, Tony Amonte

Jimmy Thomson - Ray Bourque (C)
Jack Crawford - Marcel Pronovost (A)
Steve Smith - Ian Turnbull
Robert Svehla

Bill Durnan
Mike Richter​

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

Regina Pats

PP1: Anderson-Mikita-McDonald-Cleghorn-Quackenbush
PP2: MacLeish-Francis-Recchi-Numminen-Heatley

PK1: Johnson-Francis-Cleghorn-White
PK2: Prentice-Mikita-Quackenbush-Numminen

vs.

Detroit Vipers

PP1: Conacher-Keats-Selanne-Bentley-Bourque
PP2: Roberts-Goyette-Morris-Pronovost-Turnbull

PK1: Kasper-Kilrea-Thomson-Bourque
PK2: Goyette-Schmautz-Crawford-Pronovost

​

 

[Leafs Forever]

This one should be interesting. Two superbly balanced teams with powerhouse top-4's.

 

[seventieslord]

This one should be interesting. Two superbly balanced teams with powerhouse top-4's.

Jack Crawford is an "average" #4 D. You need better than that if you want to have a "powerhouse" top-4. Like Bill White.

 

[Leafs Forever]

Jack Crawford is an "average" #4 D. You need better than that if you want to have a "powerhouse" top-4. Like Bill White.

I mean the overall strrength of the top-4, the two pairings, is quite strong when I say that. Not necessarily that each member is great in their role. Sprague Cleghorn is an "average" #1D likely, doesn't change your top-4 on a whole being excellent.

 

[seventieslord]

I mean the overall strrength of the top-4, the two pairings, is quite strong when I say that. Not necessarily that each member is great in their role. Sprague Cleghorn is an "average" #1D likely, doesn't change your top-4 on a whole being excellent.

that's cause we have a poor man's #1 as a #2, a good #2 as a #3, and a good #3 as a #4.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

that's cause we have a poor man's #1 as a #2, a good #2 as a #3, and a good #3 as a #4.

While that's true, I'd argue we have an elite #1, and elite #2, a good #3 and a good #4. I think anytime you can surround a guy like Bourque with such talent, your top 4 will be considered quite good.

Also, the Crawford comment is quite unfair. My top 4 isn't elite because my #4 guy is merely "average"? While 2 through 4 you have great depth, your #1 is merely "average". So, what worse, a top-4 with an average #1 guy and elite #2-4 guys, or a top-4 with an average #4 guy, but an elite top twosome(and a good #3)? Not to say your top-4 isn't quite good, it's one of the best, but I'd say my top-4 is right up there as well.

 

[seventieslord]

While that's true, I'd argue we have an elite #1, and elite #2, a good #3 and a good #4. I think anytime you can surround a guy like Bourque with such talent, your top 4 will be considered quite good.

I agree... except if Pronovost is an "elite #2" then so is Johnson.

 

[seventieslord]

Click on any player to see their profile.

The Regina Pats

GM: seventiesjareklordlajkosz
Coach: Fred Shero

Dany Heatley-Stan Mikita-Lanny McDonald (A)
Dean Prentice-Ron Francis (C)-Glenn Anderson
Vic Stasiuk-Rick MacLeish-Mark Recchi
Harry P. Watson-Marty Walsh-Eddie Oatman

Sprague Cleghorn (A)-Bill Quackenbush
Moose Johnson-Bill White
Phil Russell-Teppo Numminen

Bernie Parent
John Vanbiesbrouck

Spares:
Bernie Nicholls (F)
Pit Martin (F)
Glen Wesley (D)
​

 

[seventieslord]

One thing that stands out in this matchup is that both teams have strong and well-balanced top-6 forwards. But Regina will grind out the wins based on the strength of the 3rd and 4th lines. Ever since my first two drafts I have simply refused to have mediocre players on my 3rd and 4th lines. (I'm talkin' Jamie Lengenbrunner, Scott Mellanby, Ryan Smyth, Steve Thomas, Mike Ricci, Dan Maloney, Ken Linseman)

It has become a Regina trademark to feature exceptional depth throughout the forward ranks, featuring players who were not only among the better offensive players of their times, but also had the grinding/physical/agitating/tough mentality to play a 3rd/4th line role.

There is simply no one in our bottom-6 who can rival the mediocrity of J.P. Parise, Mike McPhee, Steve Kasper, and Hec Kilrea (who is a far less mediocre player than the first three but still not as good as any of Regina's bottom-6 forwards)

 

[Leafs Forever]

I have to agree that the Pats bottom-6 is a big advantage. It's a force.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

One thing that stands out in this matchup is that both teams have strong and well-balanced top-6 forwards. But Regina will grind out the wins based on the strength of the 3rd and 4th lines. Ever since my first two drafts I have simply refused to have mediocre players on my 3rd and 4th lines. (I'm talkin' Jamie Lengenbrunner, Scott Mellanby, Ryan Smyth, Steve Thomas, Mike Ricci, Dan Maloney, Ken Linseman)

It has become a Regina trademark to feature exceptional depth throughout the forward ranks, featuring players who were not only among the better offensive players of their times, but also had the grinding/physical/agitating/tough mentality to play a 3rd/4th line role.

There is simply no one in our bottom-6 who can rival the mediocrity of J.P. Parise, Mike McPhee, Steve Kasper, and Hec Kilrea (who is a far less mediocre player than the first three but still not as good as any of Regina's bottom-6 forwards)

What you call mediocrity, I call character. Almost every great team over the years has contained many a great character forward. Not to say your bottom six guys are full of lazy cancerous types, but, it's not to say mine are useless either. Many of these guys are limited offensively, but they make up for it with great defensive play, grit and overall hard work.

For the forwards, the depth in terms of offensive ability is there, but in terms of defensive it's not. Look no further than the PK for proof. Probably the best two forwards and a defenseman consist of 75% of your penalty killing forwards, and IMO this is a recipe for disaster.

 

[seventieslord]

What you call mediocrity, I call character. Almost every great team over the years has contained many a great character forward. Not to say your bottom six guys are full of lazy cancerous types, but, it's not to say mine are useless either.

No doubt they have character and all those things you want on a bottom-six. they're just not that good.

 

[seventieslord]

For the forwards, the depth in terms of offensive ability is there, but in terms of defensive it's not. Look no further than the PK for proof. Probably the best two forwards and a defenseman consist of 75% of your penalty killing forwards, and IMO this is a recipe for disaster.

Nothing wrong with using your best players in all situations if they are the best at it.

Mikita, Francis, and Prentice are the three I would refer to as defensive stars, but there is no one in the lineup who is lacking responsibility, either.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

No doubt they have character and all those things you want on a bottom-six. they're just not that good.

While I do disagree, it's also not a large concern. As individuals they might not be the best, but in terms of what their roles are and whats expected of them, they're pretty good fits, and that's what I'm most concerned about.

 

[jarek]

What you call mediocrity, I call character. Almost every great team over the years has contained many a great character forward. Not to say your bottom six guys are full of lazy cancerous types, but, it's not to say mine are useless either. Many of these guys are limited offensively, but they make up for it with great defensive play, grit and overall hard work.

For the forwards, the depth in terms of offensive ability is there, but in terms of defensive it's not. Look no further than the PK for proof. Probably the best two forwards and a defenseman consist of 75% of your penalty killing forwards, and IMO this is a recipe for disaster.

What's wrong with that? Mikita can handle the minutes, and the Francis - Prentice unit is getting the shutdown assignment anyways! Isn't it normal for your shutdown 3rd line to also get top PK minutes? Because that is what we're doing, except it's the second line instead.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Nothing wrong with using your best players in all situations if they are the best at it.

Mikita, Francis, and Prentice are the three I would refer to as defensive stars, but there is no one in the lineup who is lacking responsibility, either.

No, but there's only so many minutes players can log effectively. Given that this is a Fred Shero team, I'm not sure discipline will be the biggest rule, and that will certainly take from the ES minutes of Francis and Mikita. Fine by me.

 

[seventieslord]

No, but there's only so many minutes players can log effectively. Given that this is a Fred Shero team, I'm not sure discipline will be the biggest rule, and that will certainly take from the ES minutes of Francis and Mikita. Fine by me.

Coaches don't take penalties... players do. Our squad is no more of a penalty liability than any other.

therefore, my estimate of 21 minutes for Mikita and 20 for Francis is very reasonable and acceptable.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Coaches don't take penalties... players do. Our squad is no more of a penalty liability than any other.

therefore, my estimate of 21 minutes for Mikita and 20 for Francis is very reasonable and acceptable.

Obviously they don't, but coaches do have a big influence on the way their players play. Your team has many guys who play with a bit of an edge, like Mikita, Anderson, Heatley, McDonald, White and especially Cleghorn. Under a guy like Shero, the nastiness will only come out in full effect.

 

[seventieslord]

Regina's best PK forwards are on the PK, but that doesn't mean the team lacks options if substitutions need to be made.

Among our post-expansion forwards, there are many with more than enough PK experience. Here is the percentage of PPGA that a few of them have been on the ice for:

MacLeish 20% (on perhaps the best PK of all-time)
Recchi 19%
McDonald 19%

there are also Nicholls (21%) and Martin (23%) - realistically, 1-2 forwards will be out of the lineup at any given time, and these guys are more than able to take a PK spot if they need to.

Aside from them, our pre-expansion forwards all have the skills required to be feasible PK options. (you have to read between the lines, of course, as pre-1950 PK quotes are impossible to find ) - particularly Walsh & Oatman.

Kasper, at 49%, is Detroit's best PK option at forward and he is a mediocre player otherwise. McPhee at 21% is also pretty well-established. Aside from that, there is Schmautz (18%) and among the pre-expansion guys only Kilrea sounds like the PK type.

Selanne (5%) and Parise (7%) are not viable options. Goyette (1% over 316 post-expansion games) is also highly questionable. how much of a regular was he on Montreal PK? because 1% post-expansion and 0 SHG from 1964-1967 doesn't look good. He's considered a good two-way player but it doesn't look like he ever killed penalties.

Detroit's best options for PK forwards are clearly Kasper, McPhee, Kilrea, and Schmautz, in that order, and only one of those can take faceoffs... not ideal.

 

[jarek]

Obviously they don't, but coaches do have a big influence on the way their players play. Your team has many guys who play with a bit of an edge, like Mikita, Anderson, Heatley, McDonald, White and especially Cleghorn. Under a guy like Shero, the nastiness will only come out in full effect.

There is SO much more to Shero than just his goon tactics or whatever. If you read his bio, and I encourage you to, you will realize that this man was a genius in many ways. We picked him because of familiarity with Parent, MacLeish was only better, and his general synergy that should be happening with our team. He liked to have 4 lines that could play the same way, and that's what we have. Players take penalties as seventies said, and most of our guys, except maybe Cleghorn, know when to draw the line. Besides, Cleghorn amounted to no more PIMs than a guy like Orpik if you delve into the numbers.

 

[seventieslord]

Obviously they don't, but coaches do have a big influence on the way their players play. Your team has many guys who play with a bit of an edge, like Mikita, Anderson, Heatley, McDonald, White and especially Cleghorn. Under a guy like Shero, the nastiness will only come out in full effect.

From Shero: The Man Behind the System (1975)

I have never objected to legal body blows in hockey, but I am opposed to violence on the ice. Of course, I have participated in my share of fighting, but I have never enjoyed punching a hockey player in the mouth or any other part of his anatomy. Coaches are notorious for making unreasonable demands on their hockey players. No coach has the right to tell his players to fight the opposition. Body checks? Yes. Fights and violence? No.

Now, does this completely negate his reputation as the coach of the "Broad Street Bullies"? No. But violence was not his sole M.O. and it was not priority #1.

He was not behind the acquisition of the tougher and dirtier players on the Flyers. That was handled by the GM. He didn't make them any tougher or dirtier than they already were.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

There is SO much more to Shero than just his goon tactics or whatever. If you read his bio, and I encourage you to, you will realize that this man was a genius in many ways. We picked him because of familiarity with Parent, MacLeish was only better, and his general synergy that should be happening with our team. He liked to have 4 lines that could play the same way, and that's what we have. Players take penalties as seventies said, and most of our guys, except maybe Cleghorn, know when to draw the line. Besides, Cleghorn amounted to no more PIMs than a guy like Orpik if you delve into the numbers.

I never said there wasn't more to Shero. But he definitely was a coach who loved and encouraged that nasty type of play, and was a big proponent of that sort of culture. He is only going to encourage hard-nosed play, so I fail to see why the guys on your team will toe the line when he'll encourage them to cross it.

Also, seventies, I'm uncertain why you bring Nicholls and Martin into the debate. Are you saying they'll play regularily throughout this series? Otherwise, why else would they see any PK time?

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

From Shero: The Man Behind the System (1975)



Now, does this completely negate his reputation as the coach of the "Broad Street Bullies"? No. But violence was not his sole M.O. and it was not priority #1.

He was not behind the acquisition of the tougher and dirtier players on the Flyers. That was handled by the GM. He didn't make them any tougher or dirtier than they already were.

At the end of the day, as the coach he has a great influence over the discilpine of his team, and his teams were typically not very disciplined. He can say whatever he wants(and no one is ever going to come out and say they preach dirty play and such), but if he didn't want his teams to play dirty, he could've easily stopped them, and he clearly didn't.

 

[jarek]

At the end of the day, as the coach he has a great influence over the discilpine of his team, and his teams were typically not very disciplined. He can say whatever he wants(and no one is ever going to come out and say they preach dirty play and such), but if he didn't want his teams to play dirty, he could've easily stopped them, and he clearly didn't.

As seventies stated, a coach can't control a player if he already has that vicious mindset. Are you telling me that Dan Bylsma is telling Matt Cooke to go out there and turn peoples' brains into pudding? Are you telling me that Cory Clouston had Andy Sutton go and kill Leopold? Etc. etc., dirty players are dirty players and nothing will change that. In the end, a coach has SOME control over the dirtiness of his own team, but not complete control of it. If you think otherwise, then you're just flat out wrong. And even if they weren't the most disciplined, they had one of the best PKs in history! You gonna try and sell that he wasn't a big part of that as well?