ATD2010 Jim Robson 1st round: Halifax Mooseheads (1) vs. Green Bay Gamblers (8)
- Thread starter VanIslander
- Start date
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Halifax Mooseheads
PP1: Schriner-Boucher-Smith-Orr-Mortson
PP2: Martin-Richard-Middleton-Orr-Bubla
PK1: Poulin-Middleton-Orr-Flaman
PK2: Richard-Smith-Konstantinov-Mortson
vs.
Green Bay Gamblers
PP1: Clapper - Perreault - Cournoyer - Persson - Mohns
PP2: Leclair - Lemaire - St. Louis - Getzlaf - Barber
PK1: Murdoch - Backstrom - Harris - Clapper
PK2: Lemaire - St. Louis - McNamara - Heller
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Green Bay is one team where my personal ranking was much higher than they ended up. But anyway...
Hasek is in a familiar position - being the guy expected to steal a series for a lower seed.
One of the big keys to the series is obviously gong to be Green Bay's ability to contain Bobby Orr.
Hasek is in a familiar position - being the guy expected to steal a series for a lower seed.
One of the big keys to the series is obviously gong to be Green Bay's ability to contain Bobby Orr.
Same here, I would have preferred to run in to a couple of the other teams in the first round, but I'm still comfortable with this match up.
Not enough time for in depth commentary, but Richard's line will definitely be going up against Perreault, backed by Orr (thanks to the home ice, I should be able to take advantage of some matchups). I'm happy with Boucher's line on against any of the Gamblers other three lines, backed by Mortson's pairing.
My biggest worry is obviously Hasek (aside from Lemaire shooting from the neutral zone, of course
).Should be a good series, looking forward to getting more in to it during the week.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Congratulations on winning the division, Stalberg, your prize - playing against Dominik Hasek in the first round. Good Luck.
While it's never easy to play as 8th against the first, I like my chances.
Firstly, the edge in the goal is huge, arguably the best playoff goaltenderter versus the worst one (among ATD starters), the one who can steal a series vs the guy who lost a series for his (superior) team.
Secondly, your offence isn't built to beat Hasek, neither of your two top lines features a player who can park himself in front of the net and make it hard for my defencemen to move him out of crease on regular basis. The chances to beat Hasek are slim if he sees every shot.
Thirdly, my forwards elevate their game in playoffs, especially Lemaire and Linden scored on much higher level, which makes my 2nd and 3rd line much more dangerous.
As for on-ice match-ups, while your 2nd line is maybe the most suited to play against my first line, but they can't contribute much offencively if they are chasing Perreault and Co.
While it's never easy to play as 8th against the first, I like my chances.
Firstly, the edge in the goal is huge, arguably the best playoff goaltenderter versus the worst one (among ATD starters), the one who can steal a series vs the guy who lost a series for his (superior) team.
Secondly, your offence isn't built to beat Hasek, neither of your two top lines features a player who can park himself in front of the net and make it hard for my defencemen to move him out of crease on regular basis. The chances to beat Hasek are slim if he sees every shot.
Thirdly, my forwards elevate their game in playoffs, especially Lemaire and Linden scored on much higher level, which makes my 2nd and 3rd line much more dangerous.
As for on-ice match-ups, while your 2nd line is maybe the most suited to play against my first line, but they can't contribute much offencively if they are chasing Perreault and Co.
I think calling Esposito the worst playoff starter is a bit of a stretch, but clearly I'm not in any position to argue that I have better goaltending, just that my advantages elsewhere should be more than enough to make up for it. There is a reason I littered my line up with strong two way players, and built a devastating top four. If worse comes to worse, I can roll the dice with Dzurilla who has been known to come up huge in high pressure games...I don't see it getting that far.
You loaded up your first line, and it's relatively menacing, but with no real gamebraker in the ATD sense. It's a good thing I have one of the best second lines in the draft (if not the best), with two players who bring high level offense, tenacity and defense. Throw Orr in to the mix, both to contain the speed of Perreault and Cournoyer as well as lead the counter attack. I really don't think Green Bay has any answer for Orr. I think it would be naive to not consider my match up against your top line much of a scoring threat when I'll have the two best players on the ice (Orr and Richard), including the biggest offensive weapon. Not to mention throwing in Hooley Smith, who isn't much worse than Cournoyer, if at all.
I'd like to hear your plans for the Boucher line, before I go too far in to it. I expect them to be able to exploit (to different degrees), any match up you throw at them.
Both of our third lines are below average, I don't think either deserve very big minutes or will make or break this series. I'll concede the to Green Bay due to Backstrom down the middle, but the quality of the wingers (like my line) limits the lines effectiveness.
I like my fourth line a lot more. It's the type of line that can change the momentum of a game with a tenacious forecheck, some big hits, scraps, and the odd goal. I wouldn't be concerned with either line as much of an offensive threat, and I don't think Green Bay's line has the same potential to shift momentum or create energy.
Flaman, Mortson, and Konstantinov are going to absolutely punish your first line, and anyone else who decides to come accross our blueline with their head down (Orr should be able to help in wearing them down as well, by frustrating them and limiting their most effective weapon, speed). I think if we can wear down this line physically, then their won't be enough offense coming from the other lines for the Gamblers to produce at the same level as Halifax's top six.
I have a decisively superior first and second pairing. In terms of personel one through four, I have a superior defenseman in every single match up. (Orr>Clapper, Flaman>Mohns, Mortson or Konstantinov > Heller or Harris)I'll concede on the third pairing, but with the amount of minutes that the top four should eat, I don't think a third pairing advantage even comes close to outweighing my decisively superior top four.
I'd like to hear a bit more on your plans for Orr, I really think he is going to be able dominate this series at both ends of the ice. Also, as mentioned above I'd like to hear your plans for Boucher's line before I go too much in to it.
You loaded up your first line, and it's relatively menacing, but with no real gamebraker in the ATD sense. It's a good thing I have one of the best second lines in the draft (if not the best), with two players who bring high level offense, tenacity and defense. Throw Orr in to the mix, both to contain the speed of Perreault and Cournoyer as well as lead the counter attack. I really don't think Green Bay has any answer for Orr. I think it would be naive to not consider my match up against your top line much of a scoring threat when I'll have the two best players on the ice (Orr and Richard), including the biggest offensive weapon. Not to mention throwing in Hooley Smith, who isn't much worse than Cournoyer, if at all.
I'd like to hear your plans for the Boucher line, before I go too far in to it. I expect them to be able to exploit (to different degrees), any match up you throw at them.
Both of our third lines are below average, I don't think either deserve very big minutes or will make or break this series. I'll concede the to Green Bay due to Backstrom down the middle, but the quality of the wingers (like my line) limits the lines effectiveness.
I like my fourth line a lot more. It's the type of line that can change the momentum of a game with a tenacious forecheck, some big hits, scraps, and the odd goal. I wouldn't be concerned with either line as much of an offensive threat, and I don't think Green Bay's line has the same potential to shift momentum or create energy.
Flaman, Mortson, and Konstantinov are going to absolutely punish your first line, and anyone else who decides to come accross our blueline with their head down (Orr should be able to help in wearing them down as well, by frustrating them and limiting their most effective weapon, speed). I think if we can wear down this line physically, then their won't be enough offense coming from the other lines for the Gamblers to produce at the same level as Halifax's top six.
I have a decisively superior first and second pairing. In terms of personel one through four, I have a superior defenseman in every single match up. (Orr>Clapper, Flaman>Mohns, Mortson or Konstantinov > Heller or Harris)I'll concede on the third pairing, but with the amount of minutes that the top four should eat, I don't think a third pairing advantage even comes close to outweighing my decisively superior top four.
I'd like to hear a bit more on your plans for Orr, I really think he is going to be able dominate this series at both ends of the ice. Also, as mentioned above I'd like to hear your plans for Boucher's line before I go too much in to it.
Last edited:
Ok, what starter has worse playoff resume?
Goaltender is easily the most important position, he can singlehandily win (or lose) any given series, and playing goaltender who proved that he can win the series by himself while having goaltender who can proved that he can ose a series by himself is very big disadvantage to overcome. And don't say you would be comfortable to play Dzurilla in playoffs after he was back up for entire regual season.
If Perreault isn't gamebreaker than neither Richard nor Boucher are. Perreault was the best player on his line, who created plays and room for his linemates, Boucher and Richard always played with superior linemates, who got more attention from opponets' defence. You top lines lack goalscorer with Schriner being only one, and they lack net presence, so you guys would be held on perimeter and Hasek will see every shot. Again if you want your 2nd line to be the shutdownline, you can't expect them to score much, since they'll have to concentrate on their checking responsibilities. And you underrating my second line - Lemaire turned a notch up in playoffs (ask your starting goaltender).
Actually Green Bay has very good chance of slowing Orr down - the speed of our forwards allow them to skate with Orr, so he'll face aggresive forechecking and will have a backchecking forward on him all the time, so he won't have that much time and room to make plays, and he this time around he won't have Esposito in goaltenders crease to screen Hasek or score per redirection.
Umm i'd like see a prove for it. Smith was playmaking wing who was good defencively but his numbers very inflated due to playing next to Nels Stewart, while Cournoyer played behind Lafleur.
Backstrom's line is going to play against them most of the time and they can hadle them very well, Murdoch and Backstrom were great defencive players and while Linden isn't on their level, he brings the right attitude.
This maybe true for your 3rd line , but sure not for mine. Backstrom's presence alone makes it above average, Murdoch was great defencive player, and Linden is better than both of your wingers, and he's known for elevating his game in playoffs scoring over point per game during his prime, what together with Backstrom's playmaking ability makes them an offencive threat. And that line has it purpose - shut down line, while the purpose of your 4th line isn't clear for me - they aren't good enough offencively or defencively to be considered as scoring or shutdown line.
I don't see how my 4th line is worse. Hadfield is compareble to O'Reilly, while being better goalscorer, Getzlaf is better than Sullivan who was no show in playoffs, while having same knack for dirtiness, they can provide momentum shift as much as it does (especially if I play Linden with them), Loob is much better offencively than Lambert, so my line will score more, while being every bit of energy line as your.
i don't agree that you have edge offencively at all - I have much more scoring depth and our top scorers are compareble in their ability, but again you should consider that my forwards will taking shots on Esposito, while yours on Hasek.
To punish somebody you have to catch them and more often than not my forwards will catch your D out of position than your D catching my forwards with their heads down. And once again you underrating my other lines. And the chances are better than Orr would be worn down faster than my first line due to his enourmous workload and physical punishment he takes. Another point is, that your defenceman like to take chances either offencively or going for hit, so they need enough confidence in their goaltender to play that style, i'm not sure that Esposito can provide it.
You sure have better personel on your top pairings (and Heller > Mortson) which doesn't mean much - your second pairing features two similar defencemen who won't provide much offence and can they handle the speed of my forward, because my second line can fly too. My defence is built to protect Hasek and I don't see how your forwards can make it difficult for them. Having 3rd pairing that can be trusted to play more minutes than yours 3rd pairing will keep my defence fresh, the same can't be said about yours considering their style of play and speed of my forwards.
[/QUOTE]
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Dwight
The French Tickler
Aside from goaltending, I really like Green Bay's role players - more so than Halifax. While obviously the stars are vital, many playoffs in recent memory have been just as defined by an excellent 3rd-4th line guy as it has been by a star player.
The only problem is Green Bay's defense as a whole is much weaker.
The only problem is Green Bay's defense as a whole is much weaker.
i don't see how my defence is as whole weaker.
My first pairing is weaker than Halifax's, it's hard to argue against Orr and Flaman is great defenceman too. But my first pairing ain't too shabby - Clapper is legit first defenceman, and Mohns is great offencive defenceman who wasn't afraid to play the body.
i don't see how his 2nd pairing is much better than mine.
Mortson got one postseason All-Star as did Heller (1st vs 2nd) but let's see how they both played
Mortson:
Joe Pelletier said:
Heller:
Joe Pelletier said:
So both were physical and played the the body rather then puck, but Heller avoided many penalties, while Mortson got his share of hooking, holding calls - i prefer a player who can be effective without spending the whole time in the box.
PIMs are generally a problem for your second pairing - Konstantinov had never a season under 100 PIMs - so Stalberg will be be forced to play his weak 3rd pairing more or overwork Orr and Flaman even more. Again they both liked to spend some time in the penalty box, so your 3rd pairing will see more than you thought.
Konstantinov and Harris - they were both 2nd postseason Allstars once, one may argue, while Konstantinov got some soviet allstars you may consider the competition - Fetisov and Kasatonov were in the NHL and Mikhail Tatarinov, Alexei Gusarov or Igor Kravchuk weren't nothing more than low tear NHLers. Harris got some AHL Allstar too.
Harris were every bit as physical as Konstantinov, he wasn't as good offencively but he was also smaller.
And I have one of the best 3rd pairings in this draft, while Bubla-langevin is average at best.
My defence is built to provide maximal protection for Hasek, they all are 6-0 or bigger and with exception of Persson everybody was physical, so Halifax forwards will get their share of physical punishment. But they weren't slow either - Mohns, Heller and Persson were outstanding skater. So halifax forwards won't beat them with speed, and they aren't big and phyiscal enough to go through them. And bombarding hasek with shots from perimeter isn't really good strategy - that's where he excells.
And I wanted to add small special teams analysis:
- The lack of net presence makes your PP even with 2 minutes of Bobby Orr less effective.
- Your Pk-defencemen are small (the biggest is Bobby Orr with 6-0, but i think it's the last thing you want to let him fight the battles in front of the net and get more room for Cournoyer, Perreault and Mohns) how effective can they be in moving Clapper (6-2 and was born before 1st WW) and Leclair(6-3) out of Esposito's crease.
- Your PK-defencemen are most penaltized players on your team, so you will be forced to play somebody from your 3rd pairing on the PK.
Last edited:
I'm going to start with a lineup change. Since it's playoffs time, it's defense-first, and DoMakc made a good point about my third line. That's why I'm inserting Rejean Houle in to the lineup for Mike Foligno, increasing the effectiveness of my third line defensively.
I like the build of your second line, and trust me I respect Lemaire. I just don't think the personel make up anything I can't handle. I'll be trying to use home ice to get Boucher's line out against Lemaire's but am comfortable with them against Backstrom's line as well, which would result in Poulin's line head to head with the Gamblers second line. Poulin has the skating ability to keep up, and I'm OK with Walter lining up against St. Louis. I don't expect my third line to bring any offense, but I'm sure they can eat minutes against lines 2-4 of the Gamblers when called upon, when backed by Konstantinov and Mortson clearing the crease and punishing opposition forwards.
Loob's offensive numbers aren't impressive enough beyond that one year for me to consider him much of a threat on the ice matched against any of my first three lines. Red Sullivan is also the guy on my team who will definitely be crashing and falling in to Hasek "accidentaly" just like he used to against Plante. We all know how rattled the Dominator can get with a little bit of contact, and there are guys on this line who will be happy to do it. A couple big hits and some incidental contact with Hasek for five minutes a night, and this line is doing what I built it to. It should be able to chip in once in a while as well with some garbage goals.
I'm not at all worried about Orr getting worn down by Cournoyer, Barber, and Perreault, which is who he will be matched up against for the most part. I'd be much more worried about the three above mentioned guys getting worn down by Orr, Flaman, Mortson, Konstantinov, Smith, and Richard.
With regards to the pinching comment, and getting out of position for a hit...if you're relying on that happening regularly, you're in big trouble. 3/4 of my guys are defense first (with the other one arguably being more effective defensively than all of them regardless), they know how to play the game. They aren't going to be taking runs at your players every time they come up the ice, they will be smart about it just like they were in real life. Sure they will miss from time to time, but assuming it will be a constant liability is foolhardy.
Mortson was regarded as an excellent skater in his time, he played LW at the outset of his career. Konstantinov was one of the best defensive defensemen of his time, and was great in the playoffs. I'm not worried about speed against this pairing, they've seen and handled it before.
The benefit of having a better top four is that my guys can handle the minutes at this level. I really like your third pairing, but I also would love to see them on the ice as much as possible as they will be the easiest to exploit. By all means, play them as much as possible. Bubla and Langevin can play a steady 8-10 minutes even stregnth against your third, fourth, and sometimes second lines. Bubla is mobile enough to keep up with speedy forwards, and Langevin will definitely stay at home all game. Keep in mind Orr is more than capable of taking some extra shifts as well.
You think that a team with this much leadership (8 captains) and playoff experience won't understand what it takes to win in the playoffs? Although sitting on top of the crease in his face is always thought to be most effective, believe it or not, Hasek lets in goals that he sees as well. Just look at the modern playoffs, Datsyuk, Crosby, Zetterberg, you name it, all have been parking themselves in front of the net when the chance arises because they know what it takes to win (you would never read about that in a bio). My guys don't need to sit there all game to be effective, and I don't see anyone in the lineup without the balls to drive the front of the net when the puck makes it back to the point. Just claiming that your defense is good enough to keep all my forwards to the perimiter is one thing, but I'm 100% sure they can't do it all game.
------------
So to clarify my third line will be Walter-Poulin-Houle for this series.With his experience against bigger offensive weapons as a shaddow, I think he can help look after the Gamblers second line.
That's all I have for time now, really enjoying this series so far. More to come a little later on hopefully.
Worters, for one. I don't remember ever saying I would be comfortable with Dzurilla in, and I'm certain I said I'm confident Esposito can get things done. I'll admit he's definitely near the bottom in terms of playoff starters, but he's definitely capable of playing good enough for the Mooseheads to win. It's not like he hasn't had strong playoff runs in his career. Assuming he will be a sieve is almost as bad as assuming Hasek can stop anything thrown at him if someone isn't sitting on him. I'm well aware Hasek will be standing on his head, which he has done at least as many times without team results as he has with them, in the playoffs.
I agree with the first, I think Orr is the only skater who can be a gamebreaker in this series. Schriner had 3 top 5's in goals as a one man show on broadway, I think he can be effective enough as a triggerman with one of the better playmakers in the history of the game. Middleton was a goal scorer as well, and is expected to bring more than his great two way game to the line. It's naive to think that you're defense will be able to keep this line to the perimiter for a whole game, let alone a whole series. Boucher can thread the needle back door before you even finish blinking, or Middleton could go inside out on one of your defensemen and leave him looking for his jock. Just examples, but with this kind of talent you can't expect anything other than an absolutely elite pairing defensively to be able to keep them at bay.
I like the build of your second line, and trust me I respect Lemaire. I just don't think the personel make up anything I can't handle. I'll be trying to use home ice to get Boucher's line out against Lemaire's but am comfortable with them against Backstrom's line as well, which would result in Poulin's line head to head with the Gamblers second line. Poulin has the skating ability to keep up, and I'm OK with Walter lining up against St. Louis. I don't expect my third line to bring any offense, but I'm sure they can eat minutes against lines 2-4 of the Gamblers when called upon, when backed by Konstantinov and Mortson clearing the crease and punishing opposition forwards.
Yes, I suppose it is a two way street with Orr containing their speed and them containing his. With such an aggressive forecheck coming, you would think Orr could take the opportunity to break it down from time to time with a slick pass or move, creating good chances for the Richard line on the counter attack. Hooley Smith has no problem driving the net, and Martin will likely be the trailer ready to unload one of the tools in his lethal shooting arsenal.
I knew I'd regret not coming back to edit that, I should have stuck with almost as good. As seventies said though, I'm not buying playing with Nels Stewart as something that diminishes the impressivness his results.
As I said above, I'll try and avoid this match up a little bit, but I'm OK with it. I like Schriner lining up against Linden.
I shouldn't have commented so casually before doing a bit more reading, yes your third line is better, but I still think it's average at best defensively for a third line in this thing. I've inserted Houle in to the lineup to clarify the purpose of my third line as a defensive line, and he will also be put on the third forward PK group with Ryan Walter. Your line is more of a scoring threat, but if you're matching it against Boucher's line you can definitely expect them to produce a lot less than Richard's line against Perreault's.
Maybe I'm old school, but all I want my line doing is wearing down whoever they are out against and punishing them physically. I don't know about yours, but I'm not relying on goals from these guys playing 5 minutes a game, especially considering the fact that you would probably love to get your top six out there against my fourth line as much as I would yours. Two of the guys on my line have experience in a checking line role, so it's not like it will be much of a liability either.
Loob's offensive numbers aren't impressive enough beyond that one year for me to consider him much of a threat on the ice matched against any of my first three lines. Red Sullivan is also the guy on my team who will definitely be crashing and falling in to Hasek "accidentaly" just like he used to against Plante. We all know how rattled the Dominator can get with a little bit of contact, and there are guys on this line who will be happy to do it. A couple big hits and some incidental contact with Hasek for five minutes a night, and this line is doing what I built it to. It should be able to chip in once in a while as well with some garbage goals.
Flaman, Morston, and Konstantinov are all better defensively than offensively, and both of my pairings should be very good at moving the puck. It's a fact you can't deny, your guys will get hit. Just watch any playoff game, there are no prisoners. It doesn't matter how fast and shifty you are, especially when there are mobile defensement trying to hit you. They will get their licks in, on the boards in the very least, and that's where the size and stregnth advantage they have should take it's toll as the series goes on, in the corners. Who on that first line is going to be able to handle Flaman or Mortson in the corners without getting worked over?
I'm not at all worried about Orr getting worn down by Cournoyer, Barber, and Perreault, which is who he will be matched up against for the most part. I'd be much more worried about the three above mentioned guys getting worn down by Orr, Flaman, Mortson, Konstantinov, Smith, and Richard.
With regards to the pinching comment, and getting out of position for a hit...if you're relying on that happening regularly, you're in big trouble. 3/4 of my guys are defense first (with the other one arguably being more effective defensively than all of them regardless), they know how to play the game. They aren't going to be taking runs at your players every time they come up the ice, they will be smart about it just like they were in real life. Sure they will miss from time to time, but assuming it will be a constant liability is foolhardy.
My second pairing moves the puck more than well enough to help out in transition. Obviously they're main purpose is to be physical and defesnse-first.
Mortson was regarded as an excellent skater in his time, he played LW at the outset of his career. Konstantinov was one of the best defensive defensemen of his time, and was great in the playoffs. I'm not worried about speed against this pairing, they've seen and handled it before.
The benefit of having a better top four is that my guys can handle the minutes at this level. I really like your third pairing, but I also would love to see them on the ice as much as possible as they will be the easiest to exploit. By all means, play them as much as possible. Bubla and Langevin can play a steady 8-10 minutes even stregnth against your third, fourth, and sometimes second lines. Bubla is mobile enough to keep up with speedy forwards, and Langevin will definitely stay at home all game. Keep in mind Orr is more than capable of taking some extra shifts as well.
You think that a team with this much leadership (8 captains) and playoff experience won't understand what it takes to win in the playoffs? Although sitting on top of the crease in his face is always thought to be most effective, believe it or not, Hasek lets in goals that he sees as well. Just look at the modern playoffs, Datsyuk, Crosby, Zetterberg, you name it, all have been parking themselves in front of the net when the chance arises because they know what it takes to win (you would never read about that in a bio). My guys don't need to sit there all game to be effective, and I don't see anyone in the lineup without the balls to drive the front of the net when the puck makes it back to the point. Just claiming that your defense is good enough to keep all my forwards to the perimiter is one thing, but I'm 100% sure they can't do it all game.
------------
So to clarify my third line will be Walter-Poulin-Houle for this series.With his experience against bigger offensive weapons as a shaddow, I think he can help look after the Gamblers second line.
That's all I have for time now, really enjoying this series so far. More to come a little later on hopefully.
Your distinct advantage on the third pairing does not weigh as heavily as mine in the top four, any way you slice it.
That doesn't really clarify who was better defensively, so going with a 1st team all star vs a 2nd team, can we assume it's Morston. (Point is more that the quotes are worth about as much as the AST selections in terms of comparing the two). Mortson's PIMS went down from 1.73 per game in the regular season to 1.26 per game in the playoffs. If Mortson taking under a penalty a game is one of my bigger concerns, I'll be laughing.
Konstantinov's PIMS per game went down in the playoffs in his career as well, from 1.88 to 1.3. Again If these guys are both in the box less than once per game, on average, I don't think it's a major concern. It definitely looks like they either get away with more in the playoffs, or sharpen it up a bit. I picked up Langevin to sub in on the PK as needed for the exact reason you pointed out though, I just think you are overestimating the amount of time that he will need to play on it.
If I really need to argue that Konstantinov is on a different level than Harris, I will have to get to that later...but do I really?
Agreed, but a good compliment to each other and capable of handling their limited role with my superior, minute eating, top four.
Being mobile is one thing, but having the ability to break up the play of skilled attackers is another thing entirely. Your quick defenseman on each pairing can't play both sides, and passing is always the most effective way to pick a part a decent defense. Not even Hasek is going to have good chance at stopping a cross crease or rebound tap in, let alone all the shots that will be coming at him. My top two lines pass very well, and will be able to get your defensemen moving around, and Hasek moving enough laterally to cause all kinds of problems. I think you overrate your second pairing, to be blunt, but I'm sure you feel the same about me and mine, so we will probably have to get more in to that.
I'm sorry if I've missed it but which pairings will you be matching up with which lines?
You're assuming your pkers are good enough to prevent my elite passers from doing what they want with the puck, which I'm not sure they can. I think my pairings are both better defensively than yours as well, anyway. I have plenty of players who won't mind getting their noses dirty on the PP, Smith in particular will be relied on on the first unit. If worse comes to worse I have two guys on my fourth line who played on the PP during their careers, and could do a good job of just sitting on top of Hasek if it comes down to it. (Lambert, O'Reilly)
-Ok so you go on to compare sizes from different eras, and then use it as an argument that Clapper was big relative to his. Clapper is a monster in this thing, I know that. Flaman and Morston were 5'10 and 5'11 in their days, and are arguably the two toughest guys in this series. I really hope you are not questioning their ability to handle the business in front of the net. They live to work guys over in the slot. Most of us saw Vladdy play, we know what he brings. He plays much bigger than his size (5'11). I'm really not the least bit concerned, and I think my top four is tougher (at first glance, in fairness I will do more legwork comparing later on).
-I addressed the penalties with my defensmen above.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I answer most of your points tomorrow, but I wanted to answer this
You act like my defenceman are Beauchemin, Phaneuf and Finger - Dit Clapper was outstanding defenceman and he is by far the 2nd best defenceman in this match up, you fooling yourself if you think that he, or Ted Harris, who was learned under Shore or Hall of Famer McNamara, neither of them were a bad skater, at least you have to show me an evidence, i never seen something like this - they all were very good positionally, especially since Harris and McNamara will be playing safe and won't pinch that often, so I'm sure they will be able to break up a crease crossing pass, and won't overcommit to allow a backdoor play, and due to the speed of my forward you won't get many odd man rushes, also IIRC you first line doesn't play much of North-South style at least not Boucher - so your offencive plan just confirmes that your forward will stay on perimeter and will taking the shots that Hasek will see.
And you clearly wrong about Hasek - his athletic ability allowed him always make tough second and third save or defend a play you described if you get my D off guard which I doubt would happen. As for rebounds, first you have to get to ares where can cash on them, but you don't have crease crashing forwards on your Top lines and second Hasek always found a way to make a tough second or even third save.
You act like my defenceman are Beauchemin, Phaneuf and Finger - Dit Clapper was outstanding defenceman and he is by far the 2nd best defenceman in this match up, you fooling yourself if you think that he, or Ted Harris, who was learned under Shore or Hall of Famer McNamara, neither of them were a bad skater, at least you have to show me an evidence, i never seen something like this - they all were very good positionally, especially since Harris and McNamara will be playing safe and won't pinch that often, so I'm sure they will be able to break up a crease crossing pass, and won't overcommit to allow a backdoor play, and due to the speed of my forward you won't get many odd man rushes, also IIRC you first line doesn't play much of North-South style at least not Boucher - so your offencive plan just confirmes that your forward will stay on perimeter and will taking the shots that Hasek will see.
And you clearly wrong about Hasek - his athletic ability allowed him always make tough second and third save or defend a play you described if you get my D off guard which I doubt would happen. As for rebounds, first you have to get to ares where can cash on them, but you don't have crease crashing forwards on your Top lines and second Hasek always found a way to make a tough second or even third save.
Well, of course I'm being a little sparing with praise because I want to win, but I actually do like your defense, I just don't think it's good enough to keep my forwards from making plays all series long, or as good as mine (as far as the top four goes, and overall due to that). I wasn't knocking their speed or mobility, I just don't think it's realistic to expect them to read and make the right play every single time. Clapper will be a force in this series, I know. We could probably discuss Orr at more legnth too, after all you can't keep arguably the best player of all time from making a huge impact.
You're underestimating the speed of Richard's line. If your team is forechecking aggressively enough with that top line, like you indicated, to start wearing down Orr (although, I'm still not sure I'm too worried about punishing hits from Perreault and Cournoyer, the guys fast enough to get in there on him first), Martin, Smith, and Richard are certainly fast enough to take off on some 3 on 2's.
How am I clearly wrong about Hasek? Where did I say that he wasn't athletic and capable of making second and third saves? I know you're toting him as being immortal in this thing but from watching him throughout most of his prime, he still can be beat every which way. I expect Hasek to make a tough second and third saves, that's the reason this series may go to seven. As much as you're trying to make it sound that way, Hasek can't make every save. There will be rebound goals, and one-timer goals that he simply can't reach due to shot location or whatever else.
If your defensemen are staying down low to keep the crease clear, it'll be a firing squad from up high for the Mooseheads all series with my team's top lines ability to move the puck. Or am I wrong in assuming your defensemen will not commit to a forward behind the net or in the corner for the sake of keeping the crease clear and preventing cross crease passes?
(A little extreme example, but you can see what I mean, you're defensemen will have to commit, and will be exploited sometimes when they do)If your top four can prevent my top six forwards from making plays and getting opportunities in prime scoring areas, like you seem to keep claiming, than my top four should definitely be able to do the exact same thing to yours. Of course, I think both are unrealistic expectations.
You're relying too much on this crease crashing forward argument, was Bret Hull known as a crease crasher? Because he sure did score an important garbage goal on Hasek. No, he was a player who knew what it takes to win and had the balls to go in to the dirty areas to get it done. Can I not expect the same from all the leaders and winners throughout my lineup? Regardless, Hasek let in his fair share of goals where noone was parked in front of him as well. You make it sound like my guys will be hanging out along the boards all game comparing purses, rebounds can pop out to either circle, the high slot, wherever...and my guys will definitely be buzzing around the net, most of whom are tough enough to take the punishment that comes with it.
If the Mooseheads are having trouble beating Hasek, we will alternate Lambert in to the powerplay (which he spent time on in Montreal), to park himself on the edge of Hasek's crease, and in it when possible.
Well there goes a half an hour wasted at work, won't be making any more comments today.
Worters played for sorry excuse of hockey teams called Pirates and Americans, so he last one to blame on their playoff outs, he was actually the reason the Pirates made it to playoffs at all. Esposito had Hull, Mikita, four defencemen drafted in this ATD and defencive-minded coach in Billy Reay, their situations are absolutly different, and still he managed to have the worst GAA of all starting goalies in the ATD. I know GAA isn't the best to compare across the eras especially those who played before forward pass was allowed, but even comparisation to his contemporaries, who were drafted lower than him like Cheevers and Crozier, who sure didn't had as strong team as Esposito, isn't favourable to him. Even in the more highscoring 80ies ATD-goalies had better stats. Sure he had some strong series especially in 1971, but we all know how it ended. You know stats aren't everything but when they confirm the reputation then it must be true.
How about his accomplishments in the SEL? His records are still staying. If we are free to use players' accomplishments from NA leagues 1910, soviet league anno 1950-60, czech league of 60-70s, why we should we ignore SEL of 80ies? Swedish hockey was on the rise, they won their first world championship title after twenty years, thank to Loob efforts too. And he led Flames on two other occations in goals, a team that was only threrat to Oilers. He was very playoff performer and scored 8 SHG in just 5 years.
So only guys who can crash the net are going to play 5 minutes a game? I think my D can handle that. i have more worries about Esposito having Clapper's and leclair's butt in his face whole PP, and Barber, Leclair, Linden, Hadfield and Getzlaf crashing his crease on regular basis, i have more worries about his mental makeup, he is surely better known for his mental breakdowns in playoffs than Hasek.
What size advantage? (Sorry for Jim Mora reference). Perreault, Leclair, Barber are bigger than your top 4, Lemaire is same height, the only guys who are smaller are Cournoyer, who was very strong and muscellous (check Ken Dryden HHOF bio on youtube, he says he was scared that he is too weak for this league, because Yvan was first guy without his shirt and tought that everybody is like that) or Marty St.Louis who excelled in clutch and grab era, and is one best conditioned player today,were gym became he standart, so good luck dominating my forwards in the corner, especially with your small D.
But it actually works for you? My is much bigger than your Top 6, so it's fair to assume they will be dominated in the corners, isn't it?
It's common misconception about defence and physical game, I got news for you - it's not the same. You stated your 2nd pairing will constantly go for the hit, you putting yourself out of position, and it's easier to be fooled by quick forward, and i have enough of it on every line. Especially if you are relying on Mortson to cover for Konstantnov, beacuse the risk of Mortson getting an obstruction penalty is in such situation is much bigger.
You know it's just a specualtion on your part, something like if everybody can do this, my guys surely can do this too, I want to see you to prove such claim, especially if your players have such big size disadvantage.
I'm not going to argue the difference between 1st and 2nd, it can be decided by one vote and another circumstances like competitions, team etc, it's not like Mortson was making it on the regular basis. What speaks against Mortson, that he was shipped of to Chicago 2 years after his Allstar berth. During Original Six days trades happend not that often, because, if sned a good player to your rival, you'll face him 14 times next year, so Conn Smythe must have have not thought highly on Mortson.
No i won't argue that Vladi is a better player (it's actually pains me a lot to argue against him since I am russian and Redwings fan), but i wanted to show that the difference between them might be less than you may think. On one hand, Konstantinov is overrated because he left on peak amd people tend to project his career year on as the rest of his career, he was a very good player, but he is not one the same page as f.E. Flaman, despite the fact, that there are not many positions they are picked apart. personally I see him in the same tear as Mortson and Heller. On the other hand, if such not flashy player like Harris gets an Allstar nod, than he must be good at his primary responsobilities.
You shouldn't mix up toughness and ability to move somebody from the crease - you sure need to be tough to take the punishment in front of the net, but you need strength to move somebody - Clapper and Leclair were one of the strongest players of their time, so the task to move them from the net won't be easy, especially for the guys who are much smaller than they. If compare the quotes about Heller and Mortson, you'll see that the later couldn't rely much on his strength, he had to use illegal tactics, so would question his ability to defend the crease without putting his team in danger of playing 2 players short.
hasek may not make every save, but he is the best at making the save while being out of position, it takes really perfect play, backdoor play to beat him. So...
... you have to pass through the crease, where my defenceman can break it up. Because if you want to catch Hasek off guard the distance from shooter to the net must be short. If you passing the puck out of reach of my defencemen, than it looks more like perimeter passing.
Because my defencemen have a size advantage on your forwards, and your forwards doesn't have the reputaion of net crasher. And my forwards are bigger, and have this reputation (Barber, Leclair) while your defencemen aren't big enough to prevent that as efficent as my defencemen do that.
And Bobby Orr weakness were his knees, can i not expect from someone in my lineup to go after his knees in the game 1? Sound similar eh?
i don't think Clapper, Heller or McNamara have nightmares about Lambert challenging them, he is 4th liner and scored whopping 8 playoffs PPG in 9 seasons.
I would have to know more about quality of the league. My point was more that my top three lines are good enough both ways that I wouldn't be too worried about your fourth line doing any damage against them, you probably feel the exact same towards mine.
No, the players who are going to run the goalie will play 5-10 per game. This is like a vicious cycle back and forth with the crease crashing, I've stated how I feel about it. If you think my guys aren't going to be able to make it in to the slot for rebounds and garbage goals, in the playoffs no less, I think you're out to lunch.
Yes, your couple inches of height advantage, which by the way you are directly comparing over eras, surely means that my players won't be able to do anything in the corners. If you don't think Flaman and Mortson will work over any one of your forwards in the corners, I would suggest some more reading on them. I can only assume that two of the toughest and nastiest players from their own era will be able to physically work over guys that weren't considered anywhere near the top of the list for their own. That's before considering Konstantinov, who I could pull quotes on "physically punishing" his opponents with regularity. You don't think he punished tonnes of 6'+ players when he played? I watched him...he did. Not every time, but as I said, they will get their licks in.
Well, I wasn't going to state it for you, this is a competition afterall. It's not like I have smurfs on the blueline, it's a couple inches. Plus my guys are much nastier, from what I've seen so far...which goes a long way in dishing it out in the corners.
You'll have to direct me to where I said that they would be going for the hit every time. Being physical does not equate to going for a big hit every time. These players are high-end defensive players (better defensive pairing than your second pairing for sure), they aren't stupid, they won't just be attacking everyone that comes over the blueline with the puck. They know how to play the game, and will pick their spots.
Well for proof you can watch any game in the playoffs. Literally it happens 10+ times a period. A guy who is not known as a net presence goes to the net and sets up shop. By no means am I claiming it will be easy for them, or that they will be able to get there whenever they want. I just think it's unreasonable of you to assume that most of the personel in my top six won't be buzzing around the net throughout the game.
Pure speculation. As far as I can tell the Leafs wanted a star goalie (Lumley) at the time.
I agree on all counts. For what it's worth I didn't pick Konstantinov that early, I traded for him afterwards.
I'm not so sure it was that Mortson wasn't strong enough, just that he was a genuinely bad person and liked to work people over with the stick. I don't see any criticism of stregnth but the overall indication from what I've read is that it isn't an issue.
Refering to Mortson (and Thomson):
The bolded is the most important part of the quote, especially considering I have already shown that Mortson's PIM's per game go down dramatically from the regular season to the playoffs. Add that to the fact that he is an excellent skater, one might infer that he isn't getting beat wide, rather he is just a mean person (supported by the fact that he was twice suspended for attacking opposition players). I feel like you are significantly under-valuing Mortson defensively here. I found this to be interesting as well:Pelletier said:
So he takes pride in and focused on his defensive play more than anything, which I like. The results weren't too shabby either, with under a goal against a game while in Toronto.Pelletier said:
I think toughness goes a long way in dealing with a body in front of the net. It's not like my guys have to pick up Clapper and Leclair and throw them to the corner, I think they are definitely strong enough to push them away from the front of the net, or get better position on them in the slot frequently. Obviously Clapper and Leclair will get some screening accomplished, but it's something I think can be dealt with enough so that it won't be a huge factor.
Again we are going in circles here. Believe it or not, most of Hasek's goals against him in his career were not back door plays...he can be beat just like any other goalie, just with less frequency than most. That and your defensemen can't just be passive and allow my forwards to do whatever they want in the corners and along the boards (as is implied by your assuming they will be in a position to stop every cross ice pass all series long AND keep any of my players from a 5 foot radius of Hasek). Again, the Mooseheads will be happy to work it around the perimiter to open things up, but eventually your defensemen need to commit to break up a play, and they will eventually get beat once in a while. I don't think they are all of the pedigree to avoid that, no more so than my top four.
Fair enough with Leclair, but I still think my guys can handle him for the most part. I don't envision Barber's one inch height advantage making him as hard to move as Leclair. Stick work, cross checks, stick lifts, poke checks, all effective tactics in front of the net. This is where having better (and extremely mean) top four defensemen will pay off.
The only problem is there are likely hundreds of examples of non "crease crashers" going to the net and getting a garbage goal in the playoffs, probably even thousands of instances where a non "crease crasher" has gone to the net without results in the playoffs...and only a handful of examples of Orr's knees getting attacked.
I would expect that it is your intention to hit Orr as much as possible as it is.
As I said where you quoted, that will only be if Hasek is looking unbeatable. I personally think that the personel on either side indicate that that shouldn't be the case. Either way, if we do send him to the net, it will be to park in front of Hasek and have one of your defensemen out of the rest of the play, so he can provide a screen and open up passing lanes. There is a reason the Habs kept putting him on the PP with limited output.
No, but depth scoring is the key for a playoff series, so scoring ability of my 4th line can crucial. If you add that your 3rdline won't score much (especially with the addition of Houle) and your 2nd will be the line with the most defencive responsiblities, you're relying heavily on your top line to score.
Again you act like i drafted my players form a church choir. Cournoyer, Lemaire, Perreault played in their prime against Big Bad Bruins and Broad Street Bullys, you know the guys that found the new defintion for "physical punishment" and did fine against them, Barber was Broad Steet Bully himself, he'll be fine and St.Louis was targeted f. E. the whole series against Flames and still came on top (see game 6 of 2004 SC Finals). And Mortson and Konstantinov aren't Eddy Shore and Spargue Cleghorn or Joe Hall, nobody will be intimidated by them.
There is difference between doing something and doing something effectively. Leclair and Barber are known for being crease crasher - your guys not. I want the prove that they can do it, on top against the defence that is built to protect their goalie.
What is speculation? That he was traded or that the trades where rare? Both are facts
So you want to argue that he was strong, but mentally Pejorative Slured? And pulled that illegal stuff just because he was so bad and didn't care about risk of putting his team in numerical diasadvantage, instead of stopping them legally? i'll take it
i very much hope for them that it was true. Do you understand that he compares their first pairing to a weaker pairing, they wouldn't look very good if they would have been outplayed by second pairing.
It's not only screening, it's your much more inferior goaltending will be screened more. It's not like I have nobody to shoot on that screened goalie. Cournoyer is one of the best PP-forwards, Mohns is known for his very hard shot from the blueline and he scored 20 as defenceman, and Perreault is no slouch either. i don't think I need to specify how good shot had Lemaire, I'm sure Esposito know that.
As Red Wings fan i saw enough how perimeter play can be ineffective in playoffs.
Barber won't stay in front of the net on PP, Barber will crash it on the ES.
I don't care about hundred of non-crashers, you should provide an evidence of your players being capable of doing that on regualr basis.
Again i don't see what Lambert brings and Clapper and Co can't handle, he is lower tear power forward, and isn't skilled enough to add something besides relatively big body. Do you know how much Habs used him on PP, was he on the first unit or on the second?
Keep thinking that my second line won't be able to exploit your first line on the counter attack with Orr backing them. I could see them being the highest scoring 5 man unit in the series pretty easily. Your third line won't be doing much offensively at all, if anything, out there against my top line that has a solid defensive presence, your guys will be more than busy enough just trying to get the puck back. Your fourth line will be on their heels if they are on against either of my top two lines, and could be handled fairly easily by my Poulin line. Their only chance to score will be against my fourth line, who will have chances as well in that situation. Given the home ice advantage, and neither side having a distinct coaching advantage, I shouldn't have too much trouble getting my match ups. Although I should mention that my coach does have a bit more hardware, 1 cup and 1 Jack Adams more than Ruff.
What about Flaman? He's the most intimidating player in the series, by far. Ask Howe and Beliveau. The first quote in Mortsons Pelletier bio is that he was one of the baddest men in hockey, and there is plenty more if you keep reading, regarding it. I'd argue him and Flaman are more intimidating in terms of pure nastiness than any of your guys on the blueline.(Granted I would like to hear some more from you about them if you wouldn't mind, as I haven't researched them as much as I would have liked)
I've seen St. Louis knocked on his ass and pushed around all the time too. I expect your guys to take the punishment, and be able to handle it, but it's all about making the series harder on them, and I have the personnel to do it relentlessly. The Calgary comparison isn't very good as they don't have anyone as rough as Flaman or Mortson, or any of their dmen ATD worthy.
Yes, Barber and Leclair will be much better at it than any of my guys. I'm not sure if I'm not getting my message accross, but I'm not saying that my guys will be as good at it as yours, I'm just saying to assume that your defensemen can keep the crease clear of a potent top six for an entire game, let alone an entire series, is crazy. No, my guys aren't going to set up shop in front of the net every time they get in the offensive zone but any respectable hockey player is going to attack the net for loose pucks and rebounds. They will get punished on the way, and might not make it through your defense to the net every time, but you don't have 4 superstat (in the ATD sense - neither do I) defensemen back there so they won't be able to handle the speed and skill of my forwards attacking the net at all times like you keep implying for some reason.
I don't know why you need proof of players driving the net, watch 1 playoff game tonight, or any other playoff game and that should be proof enough. It's how the game of hockey was played. You're going to tell me that guys like Henri Richard didn't drive the net in the playoffs, and take punishment on the way? If I really have to, I will look at some old game footage and try and get something together...but you're making completely unreasonable assumptions, given your personnel.
Common man, obviously I was refering to the unfounded claim that he wasn't thought highly of. Could it have been that you have to give to get a star goalie? That's my best guess, and much more logical.
I can't tell if this is serious...a lot more dirty play went on back then and there were always a couple of loose cannons. This guy was one of them, though he took it down a notch in the playoffs as I have shown. So yes, I will take that he was strong and somewhat of a loose cannon...no more than a Cleghorn, etc.
Sorry, I'm not following.
Fair. Everyone knows you are relying on having the much better goaltending and scoring depth(which I believe won't be very much as mentioned above), and I'm relying on my advantage top six forwards depth in production, and top four defensemen to counter it.
You didn't get the point I was trying to make. Sure things can start on the perimiter but unless your defensemen are staying by the net at all times (which is the only way on earth they would be able to keep the crease clear at all times and stop all cross crease passes as you keep indicating), I have enough great passers to find seams when they commit to the man, and break it down. Again, not all the time, but it's bound to happen frequently enough. It's not like I'm going to have the Mooseheads going for cross crease passes all game, there is enough creativity and playmaking there to make plays.
Fair enough. That's the right use for him. (I had Perreault and he together last draft)
I hope you realize how unreasonable you are being with this. MY GUYS AREN'T GOING TO BE CRASHING THE NET WITH FREQUENCY LIKE BARBER AND LECLAIR, they will go to the net when the puck heads there or when an opening in the defense allows for a pass in to the high slot just like 99.9% of people in the history of the game. I don't even know if I'd call it crease crashing (such as Leclair, Barber) as much as just driving the net for passes or rebounds, hockey 101. Yes your defense will be able to handle them somewhat regularly, but they aren't good enough to stop the speed and quality playmaking of my top six forwards all game.
If Martin throws the puck on net from the top of the circle, are Richard and Smith just going to back turn away to the boards or skate to the corners? I find it hard to believe that. I'll see if I can find some time this week to watch some old games, but I doubt I will.
I don't know for sure, based on the numbers I would guess second unit. Again, this is a last resort that I don't think the Mooseheads will have to resort to. As far as handling goes, yes they can keep moving him out of there but if he keeps coming back, then that's one less defensemen on your team we have to worry about on the PP in our passing lanes - he would be busy moving Lambert out of the slot over and over.
This is fun and all, but it's really eating in to my work day, so I'll have to work late.
Probably won't be responding to anything else until later tonight or tomorrow morning.
Probably won't be responding to anything else until later tonight or tomorrow morning.
This is fun and all, but it's really eating in to my work day, so I'll have to work late.
Probably won't be responding to anything else until later tonight or tomorrow morning.
i think i won't able to post something next two days till voting day, so you can concentrate on your work. i think we either agree on some things, or agree to disagree on other, so it'll go circles if we continue, i guess we let the voters decide, but i want to thank you for interesting discussion. Good Luck.
Thanks, you made some really good arguments for your team, I tried my best to deter most of them (and some couldn't be!)but we will leave it to the voters to decide. I'd be surprised if this one wasn't very close, I think it's the best 1v8 match up I've seen in my two drafts.
Best of luck to you as well.
With all that said, I'd be happy to try and address any concerns regarding strategy, etc, that any of the voters may have, over the next couple days...Anyone?
Ad
Latest posts
-
-
Series Talk: ECSF-Florida Panthers vs Boston Bruins (Bruins Lead 1-0)- Latest: WhiskeyYerTheDevils
Upcoming events
-
TO ADVANCE SEMIFINAL - Borussia Dortmund @ Paris Saint-Germain - 2nd leg. 1st leg result: Borussia Dortmund1-0Wagers: 1Staked: $1,000.00Event closes- Updated:
-
2024 NHL Draft Lottery Team that wins #1 pick - PICK ONLY ONE TEAMWagers: 17Staked: $19,742.00Event closes- Updated:
-
Stanley Cup 2024 Stanley Cup Champion - ONLY BET ONE TEAMWagers: 10Staked: $17,327.00Event closes- Updated:
-
Game 2 Carolina Hurricanes @ NY Rangers - NYR leads 1-0Wagers: 4Staked: $2,309.00Event closes
- Updated:
-