ATD2010 Foster Hewitt 1st round: Vancouver Maroons (3) vs. Atlanta Thrashers (6)
- Thread starter VanIslander
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Vancouver Maroons
PP1: Bailey - Gilmour - Bure - Lapointe - Reinhart
PP2: Holmstrom - Schmidt - Bauer - Hatcher - Bergman
PK1: Klukay - Luce - Howell - Gardiner
PK2: Bailey - Schmidt - Lapointe - Bergman
vs.
Atlanta Thrashers
PP1: Firsov - Barry - Darragh - Taylor - Coffey
PP2: Simmer - Starshinov - Malkin - Stuart - Kuzkin
PK1: Pavelich - Bain - Laviolette - Stewart
PK2: Glass - Starshinov - Stuart - Pulford
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
- Feb 7, 2010
- 739
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You are absolutely right, two totally different teams.
So I guess what it comes down to for me, is convincing everyone that Vancouver's edge in defensive style of play and goal prevention is greater than Atlanta's (minor) edge in offensive ability.
In any offense vs defense matchup, the burden of proof or ability is on the offense. It's the forwards that have to make the plays, push the puck up, make the right passes, find the holes, beat the goalie, etc... The defense just has to sit back, follow through with their game plan, and limit their mistakes.
Vancouver has a huge advantage in this sort of match-up because....
1. Vancouver has home ice advantage, and coach Lemaire will be able to get any matchup he wants.
2. Vancouver has a much better coach, and in a series like this, you can bet the defensive mastermind that is Jacques Lemaire will be able to control the style and flow of the game. He will scheme all sorts of defensive systems to make Atlanta's speedy offensive players as ineffective as possible. Vancouver WILL play a heavy neutral zone trap to prevent the Atlanta players from having enough time to pick up speed or make long passes. The trap will also obviously force turnovers, and the Vancouver forwards are more than capable of creating chances on these turnovers and capitalizing.
3. Vancouver has at two quality defensive forwards on all 3 top lines, and a rock-solid defensive defenseman on both pairings. Either Bailey/Schmidt, Fleury/Gilmour, or Klukay/Luce will be on the ice for 50+ minutes of the game, along with 1 of Harry Howell or Herb Gardiner who will be on for 50+ minutes of the game. Of course, Patrick Roy will be on the ice for 60 minutes a game too
, and that leads me to my next point...4. Patrick Roy. He is arguably the greatest goalie of all-time, and has proven that he CAN singled-handedly make the difference in a game or series. He's a three time playoff MVP. Atlanta isn't just fighting 1 battle in this series, they're fighting two separate battles. Not only do they have to beat the trap, the forwards, the defense, and create good scoring opportunities, but that only gives them the opportunity to take on Patrick Roy. Beating Roy in itself will be a whole other challenge.
You are absolutely right, two totally different teams.
So I guess what it comes down to for me, is convincing everyone that Vancouver's edge in defensive style of play and goal prevention is greater than Atlanta's (minor) edge in offensive ability.
In any offense vs defense matchup, the burden of proof or ability is on the offense. It's the forwards that have to make the plays, push the puck up, make the right passes, find the holes, beat the goalie, etc... The defense just has to sit back, follow through with their game plan, and limit their mistakes.
Vancouver has a huge advantage in this sort of match-up because....
1. Vancouver has home ice advantage, and coach Lemaire will be able to get any matchup he wants.
3. Vancouver has at two quality defensive forwards on all 3 top lines, and a rock-solid defensive defenseman on both pairings. Either Bailey/Schmidt, Fleury/Gilmour, or Klukay/Luce will be on the ice for 50+ minutes of the game, along with 1 of Harry Howell or Herb Gardiner who will be on for 50+ minutes of the game. Of course, Patrick Roy will be on the ice for 60 minutes a game too
4. Patrick Roy. He is arguably the greatest goalie of all-time, and has proven that he CAN singled-handedly make the difference in a game or series. He's a three time playoff MVP. Atlanta isn't just fighting 1 battle in this series, they're fighting two separate battles. Not only do they have to beat the trap, the forwards, the defense, and create good scoring opportunities, but that only gives them the opportunity to take on Patrick Roy. Beating Roy in itself will be a whole other challenge.
So I guess I have to prove to you guys that my offensive/skating style of play trumps the trap/defensive style of the Vancouver Maroons which I beileve does. First let me start of by saying I am completely anti-trap. I beileve the trap boggs down the game and takes away the skill,speed,and creativity that makes the game of hockey great. I think its a style of play made for teams who are completely inferior like the 1995 devils, and I would never go into an all-time draft with that as my formula for success. The thrashers will win this series because the Vancouver Maroons will be to content on sitting back in there trap waiting for the Thrashers to make mistakes to win. The Atlanta Thrashers have too much speed for the trap, and all 4 lines can score, The defense can score and hit and all three pairings can move the puck. Hap Holmes and the coaching staff are completely underrated. I think Atlanta trumps Vancouver because the thrashers have simply too much speed & firepower.
1. This is the all-time draft so home ice wont really matter. Lemaire is overrated as a coach and his whole concept bothers me. Like I said I'm not a fan of the trap. Line matchups wont matter to much for me because all 4 lines & all 3 defensive pairings can score for me. Actually I want you to be concerned with line matching because by the time lemaire is figuring out how Cyclone and Coffey got on the ice the puck will be in the back of the net already. None of your lines really concerns me enough to try matching up.
2. I beileve the exact opposite. Vancouver is going to too worried about preventing goals to win. If one of these games happens to turn into a 6-5 contest there's no way vancouver can keep up. There not going to be able to shut down the Thrashers with all there speed & skill players. I beileve you highly overrate lemaire. I think roy who is your team best player will become frustrated and start yelling at his teammates if he lets in some goals which he will. Let's not forget that Billy Reay is borderline hall of fame coach who would be in for sure if he could have gotten a cup, but he's the perfect coach for the thrashers high octane offensive team. Assistant coach eddie gerard will be sure to come up with some clever schemes to counter attact the trap I'm sure.
3. I am certaintly not buying Theo Fleury as a second liner in the ATD. He has to be one of the worst top 6 forwards in this entire draft. And its very good that you have all these forwards who's #1 asset is playing defense, but your going to need some more offense and its going to be tough to score goals with these guys so worried about playing lemaire's system and worried about who's on the ice for my team. If your guys play all those minutes there going to be very tired after chasing around Atlanta for 60 minutes and its going to be long series for them. I can see them all sitting in the locker room after the game sitting with towels draped over there heads and there sore body parts resting in ice.
4. Patrick Roy is your best player and is certaintly better than Hap Holmes, but Holmes is no slouch neither and is known for playing his best in big games. One of hockey's first true money goaltenders. He was one of the best goalies of his era who likely could have won 4-5 vezina trophies had they been awarded in those days.
With all this talk about the forwards lets mention my defense. Coffey/Stewart is one of the best pairs in this entire draff, and the perfect yin & yang. Coffey is the second greatest offensive defensemen of all-time and one of the top 3 skaters of all-time. Jack Stewart is one of the game's finest defensive/hitting defensemen and they should blend perfectly together. Hod Stuart and Harvey Pulford were the two greatest d-men of there era with Stuart being the best offensively and Pulford being the best defensively. Hod Stuart perhaps get underrated around here he was considered the Ray Bourque/Doug harvey of his day. Harvey Pulford can change the outcome of a hockey game by simply hitting. He known as one of the most devestating hitters of all-time. My 3rd pairing is perhaps the best 3rd pairing in this entire draft. Laviolette/Kuzkin are great skaters who can move the puck with ease and also rush the puck. I think these 2 might be the key for my team as they will likely see ice time against vancouver's lower tier players and can take advantage of those situations. The Atlanta Thrashers take this series without a doubt in my mind.
Nice start guys. Just a couple of things I feel strongly enough right now to address:
..And, why is that? The players here are all at a higher level, but since that's the case for all teams, it aboslutely does matter. Maybe even more, because with the added star power, having the right guy on the ice to watch the superstars is important.
..Because? Since when is this the case? 3 top 10s in goals (2, 6, 7), and a 6th and 7th in assists is actually pretty solid for a second liner, in addition to his great intangibles, plus he has a fantastic playoff record. I don't like him at LW, but if he was a natural LW, he'd be an upper-tier second line one. He's a good second liner in my mind, and I don't know where this sudden accusation comes from.
..And, why is that? The players here are all at a higher level, but since that's the case for all teams, it aboslutely does matter. Maybe even more, because with the added star power, having the right guy on the ice to watch the superstars is important.
..Because? Since when is this the case? 3 top 10s in goals (2, 6, 7), and a 6th and 7th in assists is actually pretty solid for a second liner, in addition to his great intangibles, plus he has a fantastic playoff record. I don't like him at LW, but if he was a natural LW, he'd be an upper-tier second line one. He's a good second liner in my mind, and I don't know where this sudden accusation comes from.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Completely inferior? The 1995 Devils had virtually the same lineup that had the second best record in the entire league in 93-94, while also scoring the 2nd most goals in the league. They were a 5th seed because they slumped to begin 1995, and in the 48 game season, didn't have as much time to recover. And yes, Lemaire tightened up the trap between 93-94 and 94-95.
Anyway, carry on.
Johnny Engine
Moderator
- Jul 29, 2009
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Actually, I'd be more worried that there doesn't seem to be any forwards remotely capable of tracking Bure on your team. I don't buy the argument that the Thrashers are more multi-dimensional than the Maroons.
Anyone have the list of retro Vezinas? I did a search, but the thread seems to have disappeared.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
This has retro awards:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=409927
Did the retro Vezina use the old Vezina criteria where it is basically the equivalent of the Jennings? Because if so, it doesn't tell us much.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Yeah. JFA is fighting the good fight here, but that comment was out of line. Fleury is clearly a 2nd liner. The issue is that he's at LW.
I haven't looked at them closely enough to know for sure. But either way it's pretty tough to take them very seriously.
Ok guys maybe I was a little out of line for comments on Fleury. I apologize to my opponent but I really beileve that Fleury is a mediocre second liner. I'd say he's more of a third liner in this thing. I said the 1995 devils were inferior because detroit cleary had a better hockey team in the finals, but they just trapped them to death. The most boring stanley cup finals I've ever seen. Let's not forget because I haven't mentioned him but Atlanta has Marty Pavelich who is one of the greatest defensive forwards.
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John Flyers Fan
Registered User
I love Vancouver up the middle.
Malking as a 3rd line center ??? ... I've been killed trying to go with an offensive 3rd line in the past. Malkin is also an absolutel embarassment in the face-off circe, something that Hunter and Gilmour can certainly take advantage of.
Malking as a 3rd line center ??? ... I've been killed trying to go with an offensive 3rd line in the past. Malkin is also an absolutel embarassment in the face-off circe, something that Hunter and Gilmour can certainly take advantage of.
jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
- 10,004
- 238
Atlanta's 3rd line is a mess. On the left you have a defensive stud with no offense, in the middle a hulking beast with All Star offense, but average at best defensively in my eyes, and a guy on the right that I guess could act as a glue guy. Not really my favorite line. I'm not really sure how it can be fixed to look better, or even if it can be done at all.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
And the guy on the right was strictly a left wing in the USSR, unless JFA can show otherwise. Atlanta's 3rd line is certainly a strange mix of players.
On the other hand, Vancouver has Gary Dornhoefer on the 3rd line.
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
Vancouver made some interesting choices, and I thin would have been best served making a trade. Dornhoeffer, Holmstrom and Simpson are all very similar type players. They made their living by absolutely camping out in in front of the net, and driving goalies crazy.
Three one one team, is probably overkill
Three one one team, is probably overkill
hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
- Feb 7, 2010
- 739
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You already proved that it doesn’t when you yourself brought up the perfect example….
… and what happened in that series when the “inferior†Devils trapped the “better†Red Wings? They swept them 4-0, Detroit didn’t win a single game.
Can any of your 4 lines play defense though? Are they even remotely responsible in their own zone? Do they back-check? Cause at this level of play, Holmes isn’t nearly good enough to bail out your team.
1) Why doesn’t home ice matter? The home ice team will the exact same advantages in an ATD as it would in the NHL today.
2) To be honest, I’m not really concerned about line matching either, except for in one case…. Pavelich is the only forward on your team even capable of trying to contain Bure, and Lemaire will do his best to make sure that Bure is on when Pavelich isn’t.
3) I know you’re trying to make it seem like you don’t care about the line matching, but you have A LOT more to gain from the line-matching than I do, and it’s an advantage you won’t have for most of the series. My top 3 lines are all completely responsible in their own zone and could handle Cyclone and Firsov effectively. I also have a great defensive defensemen on both pairings. I don’t have to be afraid of getting a bad match-up. However, you do. Bure will be absolutely lethal unless you have Pavelich on him at all times. Whenever I get Bure on against any of your other lines, it could end badly for you. Same goes for your second line of Simmer – Barry – Starshinov, Schmidt-Bailey could easily contain them on the back-check, but Bure (with Schmid and Bailey as well) would be lethal. My Doug Gilmour led second line also outmatches your Marty Barry led second line.
Why would it turn into a 6-5 contest in the first place? Your team isn’t ever going to score anywhere near 6 goals in a playoff game against a Lemaire coached team playing the trap with two defensive forwards on all top 3 lines and Patrick Roy in net.
hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
- Feb 7, 2010
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Yeah, there were a few trades that really could've helped me, I tried making them but it just didn't work out.
Regardless, I don't really care too much about those three being overkill, it's kind of a moot point imo, with all due respect.
Simpson is a spare and won't even dress unless two of my forwards are injured.
Holmstrom was picked purely for the PP and as a net presence, he plays on the fourth line and that line probably won't see more then 5 minutes a game.
Dornhoeffer was picked for his character, and physical play, to compliment the two upper-tier third line players that matter most to that line (Klukay and Luce).
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Clearly better teams don't get swept!
They might have had fancier forwards on paper, but Detroit was clearly a worse team if they got swept! This is the same team that choked against San Jose in 1994 and lost to an "inferior" Colorado team in 1996, before making trades to finally bring in some more grit.
________
(This is mostly off topic, but I'll post it anyway): I think the trap shocked Detroit in Game 1. But Detroit had Scottie Bowman behind the bench, the guy who used a version of the trap back when Jacques Lemaire was a player in Montreal! If anyone could make adjustments, I think it would be Scottie.
After the shock of game 1, I think the bigger factor was the fact that Scott Stevens basically intimidated the entire Detroit team in Game 2, to where they were scared of going anywhere near him for the rest of the series! That series was basically over after Stevens destroyed Kozlov with a clean hit, mouthed "you're next!" to everyone on the Detroit bench, and nobody on Detroit did a damn thing about it. (Hence beginning my teenage mancrush on Scott Stevens).
Carry on.
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hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
- Feb 7, 2010
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Here are some Dornhoeffer quotes to help everyone understand why I think he's a good asset for any team, in any bottom-6 role...
From Joe Pelletier's blog:
From the HHOF:
From Joe Pelletier's blog:
From the HHOF:
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TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I'm not sure what to make of Paul Coffey as a trap breaker.
In theory, he seems the perfect trap breaker - a defenseman who can get the puck up ice quickly and accurately.
On the other hand, he kind of failed at that in 1995.
In theory, he seems the perfect trap breaker - a defenseman who can get the puck up ice quickly and accurately.
On the other hand, he kind of failed at that in 1995.
I think practice is more important than theory in cases like that, but was Coffey really comparably good in that sense to his best days at the time?
Johnny Engine
Moderator
- Jul 29, 2009
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But Cleary didn't get there until ten years later!
On a more useful note, do we think that Bure would be defensive liability on a trapping team, or would the trap's propensit to force turnovers make his floating even more offensively dangerous?
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
The Jacques Lemaire of the 90s would probably play Bure with Klukay and Luce because they are the best defensive players on the team. I'm serious. Bure strays from the system too much - he gets put with defensive specialists for the rest of the game/next few games.
Jacques Lemaire with Kovalchuk? I don't know. He basically lets Kovalchuk do whatever he wants (as if Lou ordered it). But he's doing a really poor job of handling him in general IMO. It's like Lemaire has no idea how to handle a guy who isn't a systems player.
But yes, in theory, Bure would be really useful off of turnovers the trap creates.
In real life, Lemaire changes his lines multiple times per game (it's even in his online profiles). But I'm not sure how that translates into the ATD.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
ATD 2010 1st round result:
The Vancouver Maroons DEFEAT the Atlanta Thrashers in 5 games.
The three stars of the series:
1. Patrick Roy, Maroons
2. Cyclone Taylor, Thrashers
3. Milt Schmidt, Maroons
The Vancouver Maroons DEFEAT the Atlanta Thrashers in 5 games.
The three stars of the series:
1. Patrick Roy, Maroons
2. Cyclone Taylor, Thrashers
3. Milt Schmidt, Maroons
hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
- Feb 7, 2010
- 739
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