ATD10-ML Mickey Ion semifinal: #2 Oxford Dark Blues vs. #4 Dayton Ohio Mincer Rays

[VanIslander]

7-Game Second Round Playoff Series

Mickey Ion division:


Dayton Ohio Mincer Rays

Coaches: Brian Kilrea, Bobby Kromm

Camille Henry - Marc Savard - Bill Goldsworthy (A)
John Ogrodnick - Billy Taylor - Frank "Pud" Glass (C)
Sergei Nemchinov - Peter Zezel - Claude Larose
Curt Fraser - Ron Duguay - Leeroy Goldsworthy
Ron Sutter

Ken Randall (A) - John Van Boxmeer
Darryl Sydor - Mario Marois
Doug Jarrett - Jim Morrison
Adrian Aucoin

Sean Burke
Johnny Mowers


at


Oxford Dark Blues

Coach: Viktor Tikhonov

Stephane Richer - Josef Malecek - Adam Deadmarsh
Jimmy Gardner - Moose Watson - Tom Hooper
Gaetan Duchesne - Jason Arnott - Petr Sykora
Martin Gelinas - Saku Koivu (A) - Rejean Houle
Viktor Zhluktov, Konstantin Loktev

Dickie Boon (C) - Oldrich Machac
Billy Coutu - Rick Ley (A)
Zin Bilyaletdinov - Dave Lewis
Jyrki Lumme

John Ross Roach
Don Edwards
​

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

The second round discussion runs from Saturday through Tuesday.

Wednesday is Voting Day.

Here's hoping the second round discussions are as lively as the first round ones were!!

 

[Know Your Enemy]

My team is better. Vote for me

 

[VanIslander]

How our team could lose the series:

If 1) the loosy goosy Mincer Ray centers manage to get skating room in the offensive zone against big strong Dark Blues centers Arnott and Watson and tenacious Koivu and an Oxford blueline corps that's excellent defensively; and 2) the quality top-4 Mincer Ray wingers manage to elude fast backchecking Dark Blues wingers Deadmarsh, Houle, Duchesne, Gelinas and get a shot off before the Oxford defensemen stop them, and beat the better goaltending in the series; and 3) the Mincer Rays find a way to stop the Stanley Cup playoffs clutch performing experiences of Dark Blues forwards Richer, Hooper, Gelinas, Arnott, Sykora; and 4) The Mincer Rays coaching staff manages to outprepare and outcoach Oxford's Tikhonov; and 5) the moon is made of blue cheese.

The worst nightmare of my life: having a team I helped draft lose a playoff series to a team with Marc Savard as the 1st line center, Darryl Sydor as a top-3 defensemen and Sean Burke as the starting netminder. I'm sure there are worse things to dream up, but I can't think of any at the moment.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

One thing I don't like in this match-up is I feel Dayton has one of the better blueline corps in the draft. But, that doesn't make it an advantage, because, IMO, Oxford has bar-none the best defence corps in the draft. What I love most about Oxford's defence, is that, aside from the spare, there isn't a single player who isn't strong in his own end and yet, no mobility is sacrificed and the corps is very capable of activating the forwards.

Add the best coach, and one who specializes at defensive systems at that, some of the best checking wingers and IMO the best goaltender and goaltending tandem. And well, Oxford is an iron curtain. We combine the best of the 90's trap teams with the regimented creativity of classic European hockey and the grit and defensive creativity of the Little Men of Iron.

And for those worrying about Tikhonov, we assure you, we have not hired private eyes to spy on players, and assure you that players are granted the same amount of time with their families as every other team. It takes a specific kind of management team to facilitate how he ran the team in the USSR. And Oxford does not have that type of management. So, instead, we'll just rely on his brilliant hockey mind.

I'm sure there are worse things to dream up, but I can't think of any at the moment.

Mark Messier as a Vancouver Canuck?

 

[VanIslander]

Mark Messier as a Vancouver Canuck?

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! ... with Keenan as the coach!! nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

(bad flashback)

*shudder*

 

[VanIslander]

Oxford is an iron curtain. We combine the best of the 90's trap teams with the regimented creativity of classic European hockey and the grit and defensive creativity of the Little Men of Iron.

Well put.

Richer, on a defensively-minded club, led all Devils in scoring in their first Stanley Cup, with Arnott and Sykora later playing within the defensive system in New Jersey's next cup... Malecek, Machac and Bilyaletdinov certainly thrived internationally the latter two in effective defensive-minded systems... and both Boon and Gardner were members of the Little Men of Iron stanley cup championship teams of Montreal at the turn of the last century...

And Coutu was a loyal, hard working top pairing defenseman for the Canadiens for over a decade before his one infamous year as a Boston Bruin, not a wild cannon, banned for doing what the coach asked!

 

[Know Your Enemy]

*Like the last team I faced I see trouble with 1st line chemistry. The issue is who will be the playmaker? I’ve only ever read about Malacek goal scoring, was he a good passer as well? We both know Deadmarsh and richer were not know for there playmaking abilities.
*What makes deadmarsh better than my 4th line LW Curt Fraser? He's not good enough to be a top line player
* I don’t see any advantages for the Blues when looking at the top two lines from a player to player comparison. Henry is a more accomplished goal scorer than Richer, and is without a flakey attitude. Malacek may or may not be better than Savard as a player, but I think Savard is better suited to his top line that malacek is. Malacek once said that he was not good enough to play in the NHL, but I’ll be nice and say that was just him acting humble. The only thing Deadmarsh has on Goldsworthy is physicality and playoff exp., however overall playoff performance is in favor of Bill.
*Who are the players on your 2nd line? Yeah thats great that they eventually were elected into the HHOF but how did they play the game? I'm not intimidated by a player that played 92 amature hockey games. I have one of the most powerfull 2nd lines in the draft, so untill you can explain your 2nd line, advantage Mincer Rays.
*Was Arnott ever even used in a checking role in his career?
*Your defence is strong, i'd say you have a very slight advantage defensively, and i have the advanage offensively. Your defencemen will still have there hands full against my potent offense.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

The Mincer Ray checkers were not up to the task of shutting down Harry Oliver in the first round. With that in mind, Malecek could run wild if the Rays don't tighten up their checking.

Overall, the Rays may possess a little more offensive punch, but thier key players, especially Marc Savard will need be at the top of their game to overcome the balance and the Stanley Cup experience that Oxford brings to the table.

 

[Know Your Enemy]

The Mincer Ray checkers were not up to the task of shutting down Harry Oliver in the first round. With that in mind, Malecek could run wild if the Rays don't tighten up their checking.

Overall, the Rays may possess a little more offensive punch, but thier key players, especially Marc Savard will need be at the top of their game to overcome the balance and the Stanley Cup experience that Oxford brings to the table.

Thanks for reminding me. Ron Sutter will be in the lineup replacing Ron Dugay. We feel that Sutter absolutely has the defensive awarness to shutdown Malacek.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

*Like the last team I faced I see trouble with 1st line chemistry. The issue is who will be the playmaker? I’ve only ever read about Malacek goal scoring, was he a good passer as well? We both know Deadmarsh and richer were not know for there playmaking abilities.

I want to to nip this in the bud early. What separates Malecek from other pro-European greats like Bobrov, Tumba and Zabrodsky is his playmaking ability, leadership and team-first play.

In 1929 Malecek won his second European title with the Czechs in Hungary and was hailed as the best player in Europe by various newspapers. The Czech newspaper SPORT wrote:

†It was the ultimate excellence in a hockey rink. He dazzled the crowd in a way so that even the most
rabid Hungarian had to admit that he was the King of the tournament. His amazing movement and puck skills in combination with his incredible way to constantly set up his teammates was a thing of beauty.â€

He gradually became the team leader both on the club level and on the national team as the older generation of players retired. It was during the 1928 Olympics that he fully blossomed into his role as team leader.

Source

It's also worth noting that while other proto-Euro greats get mentioned on their own, Malecek's get mentioned as having a great line and working well with his linemates. Jaroslav Drobny in particular.

And as for him not being good enough for the NHL:

He was in fact so good that several of the touring Canadian teams in Europe during the 1930's wanted to bring him to Canada. Some of the players who had NHL experience said that he was good enough to play in the NHL. No other European player at that time got such fine reviews from the Canadians.

Source

 

[VanIslander]

Good luck evil speaker.

Your Henry and Ogrodnick I've drafted before, your Bill Goldsworthy, Billy Taylor, Mario Marois and Jim Morrison were on our radar and would have made great Dark Blues, your Pud Glass and Curt Fraser solid picks I respect a lot.

Everyone else on your roster wouldn't have been invited to camp in Oxford. Though that goon Randall might have tried out for the 6/7 slot.

 

[seventieslord]

Great discussion, guys. You aren't making the decision easy on me, that's for sure.

Did you know that Coutu nearly severed Eddie Shore's ear at a Bruins practice?

 

[VanIslander]

Did you know that Coutu nearly severed Eddie Shore's ear at a Bruins practice?

Did you know I wrote about this on my post about him?

It was a preseason game during Coutu's ONE season as a Bruin, at age 34, after a decade as a top pairing partner on the Montreal Canadiens, where he was even Habs captain late in his tenure, before his infamous one year as a Bruin.

Art Ross was an aggressive coach who chose the name "Bruins" for the Boston franchise because he wanted a tough, mean nickname. The coach encouraged rough play and after Coutu hit Shore HARD into the boards in a preseason practice, Shore complained publicly about Coutu, until reportedly the coach made Shore recant his comments and say it was an 'accident'. It was in the playoffs of that ONE season as a Bruin at age 34 that Coutu followed coach Ross' order for someone to hit a ref the coach disagreed with, and indeed Coutu was reportedly paid the bounty the coach offered for the hit. Coutu was banned 'for life' but that is misleading because a few years later the decision was OVERTURNED, probably due to more than one report of the coach's bounty from teammates, but by then Coutu was age 43 and beyond returning.

Coutu was a HHOF-quality defenseman (who'll never be enshrined because what he did is not in the NHL's interest, is worse than gambling in the league's POV, yet they enshined Art Ross eventually, the hypocrites!) who thrived on the top pairing with Sprague Cleghorn as the lesser violent offender to Sprague's famous temper and violent episodes. Both Cleghorn and Coutu were suspended from the playoffs once in Montreal but it was Cleghorn whom the police wanted to charge with assault after two HHOFers were sent to hospital by Cleghorn, Coutu injuring a third guy, who didn't need hospitalization.

It was a rough time in the NHL and Coutu was by no means the meanest or most violent and he was not the loose cannon he's sometimes assumed to be. One of the top-100 Habs of all time, Coutu is unappreciated these days due to a very small part of his career with a very particular coach.

 

[VanIslander]

The real GOON in this series is none other than a Mincer Ray:

Ken Randall was one of the original tough guys. Coined a "Hooligan" and a "Thug", .. had an unsuccessful tryout with the newly organized Toronto Blueshirts... was on a Cup winner in 1918 when he also played right wing... During these years he was frequently in trouble for fighting and on three occasions was fined and suspended by the league president... an even more chunky player than Pitre... A good slam bang player who gave his best at hockey and as a fighter

http://www.losthockey.com/images/profiles/randall_ken/ken_feathered.gif

Randall should be a 6/7 defenseman or a 4th line winger imo, not a number one blueliner and alternate captain.

 

[seventieslord]

Did you know I wrote about this on my post about him?

uh... I forgot. It was more fresh in my mind from when I read it yesterday in a book about the Bruins.

 

[Know Your Enemy]

The real GOON in this series is none other than a Mincer Ray:

http://www.losthockey.com/images/profiles/randall_ken/ken_feathered.gif

Randall should be a 6/7 defenseman or a 4th line winger imo, not a number one blueliner and alternate captain.

Randall was a great offensive player and was a leader in the locker room. Have I not already gone through this enough?

The kind of bulldog everyone wants in the lockerroom.
Was one of the best hockey players in the new NHL.
Handled the puck well and had a good shot

Ultimate Hockey

1919-1920

Player|G|A|P
Sprague Cleghorn|16|5|21
Harry Cameron|15|5|20
Ken Randall|10|8|18
Harry Mummery|9|9|18
Georges Boucher|9|8|17

1924-1925

Player|G|A|P
King Clancy|14|7|21
Geroges Boucher|15|5|20
Ken Randall|8|10|18
Sprague Cleghorn|8|10|18

These were Randall's two best seasons when he played exclusively as a defensman. A 6/7 defensemen in the MLD? What is wrong with you?

 

[Know Your Enemy]

By the way Ken Randall was a far better player than Billy Coutu, and thats a fact.

 

[Know Your Enemy]

Good luck evil speaker.

Your Henry and Ogrodnick I've drafted before, your Bill Goldsworthy, Billy Taylor, Mario Marois and Jim Morrison were on our radar and would have made great Dark Blues, your Pud Glass and Curt Fraser solid picks I respect a lot.

Everyone else on your roster wouldn't have been invited to camp in Oxford. Though that goon Randall might have tried out for the 6/7 slot.

Well i'm glad you dont want doug jarrett, hopefully other feels the same way, because I want him on my team in every future MLD.

 

[VanIslander]

By the way Ken Randall was a far better player than Billy Coutu, and thats a fact.

Where do you get such a 'fact'? I guess it must be from the Ultimate Hockey book eh?

It is funny that both Coutu and Randall are said to have had their best offensive season(s) as a Hamilton Tiger, Billy with 8 goals and 12 points in 1921 and Ken with 8 goals and 18 points four seasons later in 1925.

Randall was more offensive minded, played right wing at times with Corb Denneny and Reg Noble, whereas Coutu was more stay at home on the top pairing in Montreal with les Canadiens for a decade.

Randall was a chunky hothead thug of a fighter who certainly was all effort whereas Coutu was Cleghorn's less rushing, less violent partner for a decade in Montreal.

Coutu's last year as a Hab, 1924/25, when he was the Canadiens captain, he and Randall come up short in the PIM department to all these ATD greats:

1. Bert Corbeau-TRS 121
2. Nels Stewart*-MTM 119
3. Billy Boucher-MTL 112
3. Punch Broadbent*-MTM 112
5. Babe Siebert*-MTM 108
6. Reg Noble*-MTM 96
7. Billy Coutu-MTL 95
8. Ken Randall-NYA 94

Coutu and Randall are top-3 in career PIMs for the Hamilton Tigers but otherwise I can't find anything about them together. Offensive chubby hothead spitfire of Toronto or stay at home top pairing defenseman in Montreal during the same era. Oh how I wish I could've seen some games!

There are sources showing Coutu as top pairing with Cleghorn for a decade on the Canadiens, including a Stanley Cup championship, but was Randall a top pairing guy? I guess so from his offensive numbers in at least a couple of seasons though he didn't make the Toronto Blueshirts when he tried out earlier on, and for some years he was a depth guy, or better: on a deep team.

Coutu is listed as one of the Top-100 Canadiens of all time. Would Randall be considered one of the top hundred in Toronto?

 

[VanIslander]

Well i'm glad you dont want doug jarrett, hopefully other feels the same way, because I want him on my team in every future MLD.

He and Dave Lewis seem of comparable value on a third pairing. I never said he wasn't of any value, just that he wouldn't have made the Oxford squad that nalyd and I were putting together.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Geez, you're making it sound like Coutu's goonery is a bad thing. It may not be the most honorable thing to do, but if a guy like Coutu goes out and spears Marc Savard on the first shift and puts him out of the series, it gives his team a better chance of winning.

 

[VanIslander]

Geez, you're making it sound like Coutu's goonery is a bad thing. It may not be the most honorable thing to do, but if a guy like Coutu goes out and spears Marc Savard on the first shift and puts him out of the series, it gives his team a better chance of winning.

Randall was also a THUG... a fighter with several suspensions... and on the top pairing in Dayton, his time in the penalty box or on suspension would do what to the Mincer Rays?

 

[Know Your Enemy]

Where do you get such a 'fact'? I guess it must be from the Ultimate Hockey book eh?

It is funny that both Coutu and Randall are said to have had their best offensive season(s) as a Hamilton Tiger, Billy with 8 goals and 12 points in 1921 and Ken with 8 goals and 18 points four seasons later in 1925.

Randall was more offensive minded, played right wing at times with Corb Denneny and Reg Noble, whereas Coutu was more stay at home on the top pairing in Montreal with les Canadiens for a decade.

Randall was a chunky hothead thug of a fighter who certainly was all effort whereas Coutu was Cleghorn's less rushing, less violent partner for a decade in Montreal.

Coutu's last year as a Hab, 1924/25, when he was the Canadiens captain, he and Randall come up short in the PIM department to all these ATD greats:

1. Bert Corbeau-TRS 121
2. Nels Stewart*-MTM 119
3. Billy Boucher-MTL 112
3. Punch Broadbent*-MTM 112
5. Babe Siebert*-MTM 108
6. Reg Noble*-MTM 96
7. Billy Coutu-MTL 95
8. Ken Randall-NYA 94

Coutu and Randall are top-3 in career PIMs for the Hamilton Tigers but otherwise I can't find anything about them together. Offensive chubby hothead spitfire of Toronto or stay at home top pairing defenseman in Montreal during the same era. Oh how I wish I could've seen some games!

There are sources showing Coutu as top pairing with Cleghorn for a decade on the Canadiens, including a Stanley Cup championship, but was Randall a top pairing guy? I guess so from his offensive numbers in at least a couple of seasons though he didn't make the Toronto Blueshirts when he tried out earlier on, and for some years he was a depth guy, or better: on a deep team.

Coutu is listed as one of the Top-100 Canadiens of all time. Would Randall be considered one of the top hundred in Toronto?

Randall and Cameron were Toronto's top 2 defensemen from 1917-1923. Whether they played together or not, i'm not sure, but it would make sense to me to pair up a small rushing defensmen with a big hard checking partner. When Randall got moved to Hamilton he was clearly the #1 defensmen (Unless you want to argue for Jesse Spring or Charlie Langlois), and was slated to be their player-coach, however he stepped down from that position after 14 games.
I find it funny that you look down on Randall for his "goonery" when Coutu was a goon himself. I know I sound like i'm usuing Ultimate hockey as the gospel, but they had Coutu as the dirtiest player of the 1920s.

Also:

-November 15, 1921 - Fined $200 and suspended by Montreal Canadiens for rough play
-January 21, 1925 - Suspended two games and fined $100 by NHL for misconduct.
-January 19, 1926 - Suspended one game and fined $100 by NHL for tripping referee Jerry Laflamme vs Ottawa Senators.
April 13, 1927 - Suspended for life from the NHL for striking referee Jerry Laflamme after a playoff game.
-January 28, 1928 - Suspended for the season by Can-Am for hitting George Redding of Boston with his stick in January 23, 1928 game.
-March 24, 1935 - Ejected from Can-Am game due to abuse of referee Jack Cameron

-Wikipedia

 

[seventieslord]

Good luck evil speaker.

Your Henry and Ogrodnick I've drafted before, your Bill Goldsworthy, Billy Taylor, Mario Marois and Jim Morrison were on our radar and would have made great Dark Blues, your Pud Glass and Curt Fraser solid picks I respect a lot.

Everyone else on your roster wouldn't have been invited to camp in Oxford. Though that goon Randall might have tried out for the 6/7 slot.

When Morrison was drafted, didn't you say he sounds like he should be on a team with Oatman, who you have been critical of?

Coutu is listed as one of the Top-100 Canadiens of all time. Would Randall be considered one of the top hundred in Toronto?

On a properly done list that goes back to the start of the franchise (not just the Leafs) and weighs all eras evenly? Absolutely he would. That said, it's apples to oranges because the paths these two franchises took have been vastly different over the past century. 100th on a Habs list is like 50th on a Leafs list. I'm working on a top-100 Leafs project right now and it's sad how many mediocre players get serious consideration. At the bottom of the Habs list you have excellent defensive forwards and multiple cup champions like Brian Skrudland and Jim Roberts.