ATD Chat Thread XX

[jigglysquishy]

Centres have definitely seen the most movement in the last 10ish years. Crosby, McDavid, and Malkin have all added significantly since and are top 25 centres. MacKinnon isn't far off. Draisaitl and Matthews could get there.

For wingers, Ovechkin, Kucherov, and Kane have added significantly since the project in the top 25. I don't think anyone else active is on the cusp

On the blue line, is it just Keith and Karlsson? Doughty, Chara, and Hedman are right there for the top 25. But I don't think anyone has broken into the top 20. With Makar, Hughes, Fox all looking like all time talent this is a hard one to do now.

Goalies are a smaller list in general. Lundqvist and Price. Vasilevsky and Hellebucyk.

Centre is the easiest to justify, especially if we go past 60.

 

[Professor What]

Centres have definitely seen the most movement in the last 10ish years. Crosby, McDavid, and Malkin have all added significantly since and are top 25 centres. MacKinnon isn't far off. Draisaitl and Matthews could get there.

For wingers, Ovechkin, Kucherov, and Kane have added significantly since the project in the top 25. I don't think anyone else active is on the cusp

On the blue line, is it just Keith and Karlsson? Doughty, Chara, and Hedman are right there for the top 25. But I don't think anyone has broken into the top 20. With Makar, Hughes, Fox all looking like all time talent this is a hard one to do now.

Goalies are a smaller list in general. Lundqvist and Price. Vasilevsky and Hellebucyk.

Centre is the easiest to justify, especially if we go past 60.

I'd recommend that we did centers before the other positions, followed by wingers. Goalie just isn't going to see that much movement, I think. We'd eventually do it simply because we're reevaluating them all, but I wouldn't expect that much movement, but I'd probably save it and defense for last.

Also, there's no reason they have to be done all in order without interruption. If there's one of them that we want to push off for a year or two, we can do things like reevaluate things like the top non-NHL Euros or something like that in between some of them.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I've been doing some player ranking work for my own fun, and I think there might be more movement in some of the position projects if they were redone than we might have thought. We talked about expanding them if we redid them. I've been working on centers, and I came up with 12 guys that have significantly added to their careers (or had their whole career) that would at least compete for a spot in my top 70.

Nicklas Backstrom
Patrice Bergeron
Sidney Crosby
Leon Draitsaitl
Nathan MacKinnon
Evgeni Malkin
Connor McDavid
Joe Pavelski
Henrik Sedin
Steven Stamkos
John Tavares
Jonathan Toews

Notably, Crosby was 22nd in the previous project, and I'd have him 4th now, and McDavid, who hadn't even debuted in 2013 is knocking on the door of the top 10 for me. I'm not pressing for those projects to be done immediately since there's talk going on about a women's project, but I do think they should be up for review soon.

We don't necessarily have to do them in the same order they were done the first time. I know that some people want to see some more time for someone like Makar, for example, to establish himself, so we could delay the defensemen instead of doing it first. Anyway, just a thought.

Kopitar too


I'd like to see the Dman list expanded to be quite a bit longer, say at least 80 to get some modern guys like Josi, Pietrangelo, Burns, Suter involved.

 

[Professor What]

Kopitar too


I'd like to see the Dman list expanded to be quite a bit longer, say at least 80 to get some modern guys like Josi, Pietrangelo, Burns, Suter involved.

You're right with Kopitar. I have him top 60 right now, but overlooked him when I made that list.

I'd like to see all of the lists expanded. It doesn't have to be 70. I just used that as an example because it would be the minimum expansion. I'd actually prefer something larger myself. To me, the more players that we end up talking about, the better.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Kopitar too


I'd like to see the Dman list expanded to be quite a bit longer, say at least 80 to get some modern guys like Josi, Pietrangelo, Burns, Suter involved.

I'd much rather include pre-1900 dmen and centers than the vast majority of modern guys.

Josi, Pietrangelo, Burns, Suter, who cares? Give me Jack Campbell and Weldy Young.

 

[Professor What]

I'd much rather include pre-1900 dmen and centers than the vast majority of modern guys.

Josi, Pietrangelo, Burns, Suter, who cares? Give me Jack Campbell and Weldy Young.

I want to see all of them. Some guys really saw their stock rise in the pre-consolidation project. The reason I cited modern guys was just to show that there's been more change than I think a lot of people realize. But what have we learned is a good question to answer in the rankings too.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I'd much rather include pre-1900 dmen and centers than the vast majority of modern guys.

Josi, Pietrangelo, Burns, Suter, who cares? Give me Jack Campbell and Weldy Young.

Weldy Young came in 11th for us amongst defensemen and I think if we were to re-do the project today he would be somewhere in the 5-8 range (can't vote someone in before they are available).

Both guys stock rose a lot, but Young was a genuine superstar. If we re-do any lists, I hope the pre-merger projects guys get some real shine.

I for one, will be including Russell Bowie in my top 30 centres.

 

[Professor What]

Weldy Young came in 11th for us amongst defensemen and I think if we were to re-do the project today he would be somewhere in the 5-8 range (can't vote someone in before they are available).

Both guys stock rose a lot, but Young was a genuine superstar. If we re-do any lists, I hope the pre-merger projects guys get some real shine.

I for one, will be including Russell Bowie in my top 30 centres.

Well, Malone finished what, 23rd (going off memory) in the centers project. Bowie finished one spot ahead of him in the pre-merger project. Even when you account for more recent guys making their mark, I think you're right about that.

 

[VanIslander]

For wingers, Ovechkin, Kucherov, and Kane have added significantly since the project in the top 25. I don't think anyone else active is on the cusp...

Brad Marchand.

120th overall in the ATD, not long after Kucherov.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Brad Marchand.

120th in the ATD, not long after Kucherov.

Marchand and Pastrnak will slot into the 30-50 range. Panarin isn't far off either

 

[VanIslander]

Marchand and Pastrnak will slot into the 30-50 range. Panarin isn't far off either

Marchand could captain the Bruins to another cup soon.

 

[Professor What]

I haven't dug into anything but centers so far. Planning to go over everything. But I do have a feeling that I'm going to find more movement than people suspect in all of the positions, except probably goalie. With few exceptions, recent goalies don't really seem to stand out above their peers. That would mean that either there are few new entries or the list gets a complete overhaul, and I'd strongly lean toward believing the former.

 

[Professor What]

My top 20 centers (subject to change). Just because I'm bored, and I'm attempting to get more discussion going.

1​	Wayne Gretzky
2​	Mario Lemieux
3​	Jean Beliveau
4​	Sidney Crosby
5​	Howie Morenz
6​	Stan Mikita
7​	Frank Nighbor
8​	Mark Messier
9​	Bobby Clarke
10​	Phil Esposito
11​	Joe Sakic
12​	Connor McDavid
13​	Cyclone Taylor
14​	Bryan Trottier
15​	Steve Yzerman
16​	Newsy Lalonde
17​	Syl Apps
18​	Henri Richard
19​	Frank Boucher
20​	Ted Kennedy

I've got a feeling that my rankings of Nighbor and McDavid will probably draw some lightning bolts from people who value different eras differently. But hey, that's part of the fun of it.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I mean I have Nighbor at 6th so I can't complain. His star continues to grow.

I have McDavid at 7th though. Will reevaluate after the playoffs as I haven't done so since last offseason.

 

[Professor What]

I mean I have Nighbor at 6th so I can't complain. His star continues to grow.

I have McDavid at 7th though. Will reevaluate after the playoffs as I haven't done so since last offseason.

I suspect that McDavid ends up at 3rd or 4th when all is said and done. The only thing keeping him behind some guys is longevity. Other guys he's passed in spite of his relative lack of longevity. I'm guessing for this year, obviously, but he's going to get his 7th all-star selection, with five of them 1st team (I'm guessing MacKinnon gets 1st team all-star this year), three Harts, four Pearsons. Wow... It says more about the respect I have for the guys ahead of him than any criticism of what he's done why he's ranked where he is.

 

[VanIslander]

Marchand could captain the Bruins to another cup soon.

To be clear: i posted that during the 1st period. (Check the time)

In the 3rd, Marchand took the shot that resulted in his assist on the rebound 2nd Bruins goal. Then Marchand scored the winning goal and insurance goal.

And he's been checking more often than ever this whole season. He has the heart of a Claude Lemieux. And i mean that in a good way.

He ain't finished yet.

I couldn't post before now because here in East Asia the game was mid-morning Thursday and i am busy from noon on, my longest work day being Thursday, i getting home from after work dinner and drinks just now! It's Friday here now. *whew* TGIF.

(I bought a used SUV earlier this week, but the NFL draft is a sleep away - all weekend actually if you include all rounds and time zones; I may have to drive and stream, and ATD!)

 

[Habsfan18]

Bob Cole.

The voice of a generation. Many of my fondest hockey memories include his voice.



Rest easy, Bob.

 

[VanIslander]

Bob Cole was a gimpy kid Newfie who rose to star in the 1972 Summit Series, and... everything thereafter gravy, a longtime CBC staple who lost his memory at times but never his heart or gravitas. The Leafs had him by demand Saturday nights for decades.

A light extinguished but seared on the minds of millions. His descendants should be honored.

Harry Neale knows how great Bob Cole was. Neale & Cole defined MY upbringing. (We had TWO channels, some years five wirh three on U.S. cable TV, but Saturdays only skiing on ABC or golf on CBS compared to hockey on CBC or tourney events on CTV.) As a Canucks fan, Cole was not the voice of us, but as a Canadian, he was. Later, Neale tempered him, was and remains in the hearts of many out west, and deserves a big hug for all he has done with Bob Cole. Hope you read this Harry Neale. Us in B.C. think Roger Neilson & Howie Meeker tops in memory. Yet, in terms of tandem, you and Cole together were the #1 duo in our broadcasting history. We will not forget.


Happy belated 87th b-day Harry. You and Bob defined more than one generation!

 

[Professor What]

Got my centers list done. Going to do defensemen next. I'm particularly interested in seeing how much movement there might have been in the last 10 years there.

 

[Professor What]

Man, Cale Makar looks interesting. I'm projecting awards here, but looks like he's about to be a first-team all-star for the third time, and going to be a Norris finalist for the Norris for the fourth time. That's already a resume that can't be ignored even if he only has five seasons in. I mean, he can't go too high on a list because of the lack of longevity, but he's got to make a top defensemen list, right?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Man, Cale Makar looks interesting. I'm projecting awards here, but looks like he's about to be a first-team all-star for the third time, and going to be a Norris finalist for the Norris for the fourth time. That's already a resume that can't be ignored even if he only has five seasons in. I mean, he can't go too high on a list because of the lack of longevity, but he's got to make a top defensemen list, right?

He’s on the fast track for sure

 

[jigglysquishy]

I would probably have him in my top 40. How many defensemen, ever, have had a multi year reputation as a top 5 player in the league?

Fun fact. Makar has already tied Niedermayer for Norris nods. And they both have a Smythe.

 

[Professor What]

I would probably have him in my top 40. How many defensemen, ever, have had a multi year reputation as a top 5 player in the league?

Fun fact. Makar has already tied Niedermayer for Norris nods. And they both have a Smythe.

You've got him a bit higher than I do, but he's flirting with the top 50 on my working list. Got him 49 right now and he could move up or down depending on closer comparisons later. I'll be shocked if he doesn't absolutely leave Niedermayer in the dust. He'd have to basically do nothing from now on to not.

 

[nabby12]

Cale Makar is a very good hockey player. In other news, the sky is blue.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

If you had to ask me to choose one player from throughout history to build a franchise from scratch with, it just might be Sid. Not 100% certain on that, but what I am certain of is that the list of players I’d confidently choose over him is incredibly small. The “kid” is the complete package. Pretty much everything you’d want in a player.

I was thinking about this recently on a long walk. How would we rank "greatest careers with one franchise"? In other words, we get to consider all of Lemieux's career (since it's with one team). But with Gretzky, we'd have to separately rank each stint (Oilers, Kings, Blues, Rangers). Obviously this hurts players like Roy, Kelly, Messier, Chelios etc who have some of their key accomplishments split over two or more franchises:

A very preliminary list might look something like this:

1. Howe (Red Wings) - confident he'd rank first under this framework
2. Gretzky (Oilers) - I still think he did enough to end up 2nd, but it's debatable
3. Orr (Bruins)
4. Lemieux (Pens)
5. Beliveau (Habs)
6. Crosby (Pens) - he might end up in 5th depending on how the rest of his career unfolds
7. Hull (Blackhawks)
8. Richard (Habs)
9. Harvey (Habs)
10. Bourque (Bruins)
11. Lidstrom (Red Wings)
12. Ovechkin (Caps)
13. Shore (Bruins)
14. Potvin (Islanders)
15. Plante (Habs)
16. Nighbor (Sens)
17. Lafleur (Habs)
18. Mikita (Blackhawks)
19. Clarke (Flyers)
20. Hasek (Sabres) - I found him hard to rank

Originally I was trying to figure out where Sakic or Yzerman would rank. I can't find room for them in the top 20, but they can't be too far below. (The next group of players would probably be some combination of Esposito in Boston, Trottier on the Isles, Brodeur in NJ, Hall in Chicago, and then Sakic and Yzerman).