ATD #9 René Lecavalier Semifinal: #2 Springfield Isotopes vs. #3 Ottawa 67's

FissionFire

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The Springfield Isotopes
Coach: Mike Keenan
Captain: Sylvio Mantha
Assistant Captains: Bill Barber, Walt Tkaczuk

Bill Barber (A) - Norm Ullman - Andy Bathgate
Baldy Northcott - Bobby Smith - Teemu Selanne
Hec Kilrea - Walt Tkaczuk (A) - John MacLean
Curt Fraser - Pit Martin - Jim Pappin
Camille Henry, John Ogrodnick

Brad Park - Sylvio Mantha (C)
Zdeno Chara - Hod Stuart
Dave Burrows - Gilles Marotte
Fredrik Olausson

Ken Dryden
Sean Burke

PP#1
Bill Barber - Norm Ullman - Andy Bathgate
Hod Stuart - Brad Park

PP#2
John MacLean - Bobby Smith - Teemu Selanne
Sylvio Mantha - Zdeno Chara

PK#1
Bill Barber - Walt Tkaczuk
Zdeno Chara - Sylvio Mantha

PK#2
Baldy Northcott - Norm Ullman
Brad Park - Dave Burrows



Ottawa 67s
Head Coach: Lindy Ruff
Captain: Syl Apps
Alternates: Gordie Howe, King Clancy

Anatoli Firsov - Syl Apps - Gordie Howe
Gaye Stewart - Duke Keats - Vladimir Martinec
Craig Ramsay - Gregg Sheppard - Bengt Gustafsson
Vic Stasiuk - Dale Hunter - Claude Lemieux
Jimmy Roberts, Dave Christian

Jimmy Thomson - King Clancy
Jan Suchy - Barry Beck
Keith Magnuson - Doug Crossman
Roman Hamrlik

Georges Vezina
Roger Crozier

PP#1
Antoli Firsov - Duke Keats - Gordie Howe
Jan Suchy - Barry Beck

PP#2
Gaye Stewart - Syl Apps - Vladimir Martinec
Jimmy Thomson - King Clancy

PK#1
Craig Ramsay - Gregg Sheppard
Jimmy Thomson - Barry Beck

PK#2
Syl Apps - Bengt Gustafsson
King Clancy - Doug Crossman​
 
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Rick Middleton

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Man, we're so going to crush you. Your 2nd line LW is named Gaye. I mean, come on, Gaye? Our 2nd line LW is named Baldy. That is so much more awesomer than Gaye.
 

God Bless Canada

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Jul 11, 2004
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I wouldn't be slamming Gaye Stewart. Former goals leader, and actually a pretty tough player.

Key question for me is if Springfield can stop Ottawa's big line? Ottawa has the two best forwards in this series (I like Bathgate, but he is not as good as Apps). And Firsov is a pretty damn good goal scorer for that top line. If Springfield can stop the Apps line, they still have to face the dynamic Keats line, but if you can stop Apps, you can stop Keats. Walt Tkaczuk and Pit Martin will have their hands full.

As stated several times before, Ottawa's fourth line is the best in the draft. Their third line is very good, too.

Bathgate won't be able to dominate like he did in the last series. Not against Stewart, Ramsay and Statiuk. But he will still put up points on that great top line.

Both teams have that great blend on the blue-line. Springfield has the best defenceman; I would argue that Ottawa has the best top-pairing. Thomson is very underrated, and I think the Clancy-Thomson tandem just works.

Zdeno Chara will be a pivotal guy in this series. He's a defining player, he's a guy that scouts will be seeking "the next ..." player for a while.

Dryden vs. Vezina is probably the biggest goaltending mis-match in the second round.

Not a big fan of either coach. I think they're good enough to be in the ATD, and I would say Keenan is the better coach, but I don't think Keenan over Ruff is a difference-maker.
 

Sturminator

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You make a good point about Chara's importance in this series and to the Isotopes, in general, GBC. In fact, he will move back up to the 2nd pairing with Stuart. The new Springfield defensive pairings:

Park - Mantha
Chara - Stuart
Burrows - Marotte
- with Olausson in reserve

Onto the matchup:

- the most obvious advantage for Springfield in this series is Dryden vs. the Ottawa goalies. It shouldn't require much analysis, but I would also like to point out that Vezina is an old-time goalie and, at least in my opinion, is probably not going to be up to playing 7 consecutive playoff games, if the series goes that far. Dryden sat for 20 minutes of his entire playoff career in Montreal and will, of course, start every game for the Isotopes. The matchup here is really Dryden vs. 5-6 games of Vezina and 1-2 games of Crozier, which is even more lopsided than a straight Dryden vs. Vezina matchup.

- Springfield's other clear advantage is on defense. GBC says that Clancy - Thomson "just works" as a 1st pairing...meh, I dunno. There are two problems here:

1. Clancy's size/strength disadvantage vs. the Springfield top 6. With the exception of Teemu Selanne (who is strong on his skates, himself), all of the Isotopes scoringline forwards are a physical mismatch against Clancy. None of Barber - Ullman - Bathgate are huge, but all three possess a great deal of physical strength and Barber/Ullman were very chippy guys who liked to hit and initiate contact. Baldy Northcott was a very big player for his era (6'0" 185 in the 30's) who was known for playing a strong, aggressive game, and Bobby Smith's size/strength advantage over Clancy shouldn't need much clarification. The King is a great defenseman, but his biggest weakness is exposed against the Springfield top 6.

2. That leaves Jimmy Thomson to do a lot of the dirty work for Ottawa. The thing about Thomson is that I see little reason to consider him a legitimate #2 defenseman in an ATD setting. He was a 2nd team all-star twice in very weak seasons for 2nd-tier defensemen (he shared 2nd team honors with Leo Reise Jr. and then Hy Buller) and is not a Hall of Famer. Thomson was a good passer and puck-carrier (though that seems a bit redundant with Clancy as his partner), had above-average size and was known as a tough player, but what reason do we have to believe that his defensive abilities are ATD first-pairing calibre? If they were, given his other qualities, I can only assume that he'd be a Hall of Famer. I don't actually have any information on Thomson's defensive skills, and not for a lack of trying. As far as I know, there is none available, which leads me to believe that he was probably nothing special in his own zone.

- the Leafs dynasty of the late 40's was built around a fierce forward unit (led by Apps, Kennedy, Bentley, Sloan, Smith, Klukay, Metz and Watson at various points) and Turk Broda. The blueline was clearly not the team's area of strength, and I think all of those defensemen: Thomson, Mortson, Goldham, Stanowski and Barilko - get overrated in this forum. I have a very interesting tidbit from a Toronto Globe and Mail article on the inaugural NHL all-star game, which was played in 1947 between the defending champion Leafs and the league-all stars. The entire text is somewhat fascinating (the chippiness of the game, the introduction of glass panels behind the nets), but there is one snippet which I think is pretty telling about the Leafs team defense during their dynasty years:​

Globe and Mail said:
The game was only 25 minutes old at this stage and suddenly Leafs fell apart, tumbling over each other and making things easy for the opposition. It was an all too familiar Toronto story. A good lead and the players letting down to suddenly find themselves on the wrong end of the score.

It's a fairly stunning indictment of Toronto's team defense from the hometown paper, though I don't honestly find it surprising. I get the impression that the great Leafs dynasty of the 40's won more in spite of its blueline than because of it. Considering the defensive quality of the Toronto forwards on that 47 team (Kennedy, Watson, Metz and Klukay being the obvious standouts), serious coverage breakdowns would seem to fall on the shoulders of the defense, which had depth, but lacked high-end talent.

Clancy - Thomson is a vulnerable first pairing in general, but especially against physical forwards, and doesn't compare well to a Park - Mantha pairing which has the toughness and defensive zone ability to effectively match up with ATD first liners.

- onto the 2nd pairings: I think it's fairly obvious that Stuart - Chara is the superior unit. Hod Stuart is a high-end 2-way #3 with great size and speed who (with Cleghorn), was considered one of the two most dominant defensemen in hockey history before the Shore/Clancy era. Some considered him even better than Cleghorn, and as Joe Pelletier pointed out in the Worldwide Hockey Hall of Fame discussion, his career as a dominant player for the Silver Seven actually lasted for nine seasons before his tragic death at the age of 27. Considering that many players retired around 30 in Stuart's era, there isn't much of a knock in terms of career value here. I don't really know why Hod gets picked behind guys like Boucher and Gerard when the consensus among those who saw them play was that Stuart was the superior player.

Zdeno Chara is a guy who (on the strong assumption that he beats Phaneuf in voting this year) has got two 1st team and one 2nd team all-star nods under his belt, already, in addition to another season in which he finished 7th in Norris voting (making him a marginal 3rd teamer). That's already the resume of a strong #3 ATD defenseman. As a #4, he may be the best in the league. Playing the center zone in a left wing lock gives Chara help against wide speed on both sides (the left wing on the left and Stuart on the right) and his reach, which is obviously so good as to be considered an outlier, will make it extremely hard to go around him in transition in his reduced area of responsibility.

With the exception of the Bourque - Flaman "2nd pairing", Stuart - Chara is the best in the draft.

Suchy was a great all-around defenseman at his peak - a poor man's Clancy, in my opinion - but his peak was short (basically 68-71) due to the car crash and, like Clancy, he is a matchup problem against physical forwards. Suchy was 5'8" 160 in 60's-70's era hockey. I think Jan Suchy is a good #3 ATD defenseman with an excellent peak, but his area of weakness is exploitable by the Isotopes' forwards.

I think Barry Beck had the talent to be a solid 2-way #4 in an ATD, but as pit pointed out, a string of injuries made it impossible for him to play with much consistency. Taken as a whole, his career is really more that of a 3rd pairing ATD defenseman. Based on Norris voting, he's got three seasons in which he was a marginal 3rd team all-star (7th, 7th, 6th). He's a questionable #4 and obviously not in Chara's league. Suchy and Beck have the talent of a good 2nd pairing, but there are consistency issues, and Suchy's lack of size can be a liability. Springfield's second pair is pretty easily the better unit.
 
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Sturminator

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Walt Tkaczuk and Pit Martin will have their hands full.

As I've said a few times before, the Isotopes don't match lines. It's not my style and it's not Keenan's style, either. Keenan is a big proponent of fitness and likes to lean on his top 6 forwards and top 4 defensemen for the bulk of the icetime, which he will do with this team. Apps and Keats will be defended by Ullman and Smith, who are both fine defensive centers.

Bathgate won't be able to dominate like he did in the last series. Not against Stewart, Ramsay and Statiuk. But he will still put up points on that great top line.

Gaye Stewart was a fine offensive player and a tough guy (among other things, he got suspended for a stick-swinging duel in 1942), but he was not a special defensive player. Neither was Vic Stasiuk, whose best years were actually at right wing on the Uke line with Johnny Bucyk playing on the left. You should know that, as Bucyk is one of the RCAF's headliners. Amusingly, Andy Bathgate once beat up Stasiuk twice in the same game.

New York Times said:
In the rugged give-and-take of bigtime hockey, Bathgate has learned to give with the best of them: he once got so infuriated that he beat up Boston's Vic Stasiuk twice in a single night.

It's a pretty funny article, overall, especially the bit at the end about Andy's wife, though the bits about the brutal Rangers fans and Bathgate injuring goalies with his slapshot are interesting, as well. Suffice it to say, if there's any player over whom Bathgate enjoys an intimidation factor, it is probably Vic Stasiuk.

Craig Ramsay is certainly a great checking left wing, but line-matching cuts both ways, especially on visiting ice with a lower-end coach. If Ruff tries to send Ramsay's line out there to check Bathgate every shift, that will have serious consequences for the 67's offense because Springfield's top line is going to get a lot of icetime.
 
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Sturminator

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Here are two players. Which is better?

Player 1:

NHL top-10 goals finishes: 4th, 5th, 5th, 6th, 10th
NHL top-10 assists finishes: 1st, 1st, 6th, 6th
NHL top-10 points finishes: 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 6th, 7th, 8th
NHL top-10 Hart trophy finishes: 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd

Player 2:

NHL top-10 goals finishes: 1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 10th
NHL top-10 assists finishes: 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 10th
NHL top-10 points finishes: 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 6th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 10th
NHL top-10 Hart trophy finishes: 2nd, 5th, 9th

How do we compare these two players? Well, the first guy looks like a better playmaker (at least at his peak), while the second guy is clearly a better goalscorer in terms of peak and career value. Relative to their peers, they look to have roughly equal offensive peak values, with the second guy holding an advantage in terms of career value. The first guy got a lot more Hart trophy love, and we assume was therefore considered more vital to his team's success than the second guy.

These players are Syl Apps Sr. (player 1) and Norm Ullman (player 2). It's probably not surprising to those GMs with a lot of knowledge on these players, but really they are pretty similar. Ullman has the clear edge in terms of career value, while Apps has the big leadership advantage, as seen clearly in his Hart voting records. Apps lost two seasons to the war, so if we're generous his career value is close to Ullman's. Apps also has three more all-star nods than Ullman, but one came during a war year in which he only played half the season (essentially a throwout), and the level of competition the two men faced at center was not even close. Ullman shared all-star honors with Stan Mikita both seasons he made the team and frequently lost out to Beliveau, Richard and Esposito, among others. Not counting the throwout year, Apps shared all-star honors with Bill Cowley (twice), Neil Colville and Phil Watson. An average year for Ullman almost certainly would have been enough to win an all-star selection in a year that one of those players was the next best center in the league.

In terms of overall value, they really don't look all that far apart. Both men were tremendous playoff performers. Apps' teams had more success (which adds to his legend), but I don't think it can be said that he was actually a better postseason player than Ullman. Both were excellent skaters. Apps was bigger than Ullman and quite strong, but Ullman was very strong, himself, and was much more willing to initiate contact and play with an edge than the peaceful Apps.

I've never been able to find any hard information on Apps' fore or backchecking abilities. I have a hard time believing that he was a floater, but I'd like to see some praise of his secondary skills before I credit him for greatness in these areas. Ullman is described by multiple sources as being one of the greatest forecheckers and faceoff men of his era and a great digger along the boards. Joe Pelletier is generous in his praise of Ullman's backchecking abilities, and Punch Imlach called Ullman the greatest center he ever had. Given what we know about Imlach, one can only assume Ullman worked pretty hard to earn such a title.

Syl Apps has a certain mystique that Ullman lacks and I believe is more valuable mainly because he's one of the greatest leaders in NHL history. Leadership aside, however, Ullman actually appears to be the more complete player and may have an edge in career value, as well, depending on how you credit the years Apps lost to the war.

Apps is more important to the 67's because he is the team leader, but I'm not sure that he's actually the better player on the ice. Springfield has the great Sylvio Mantha (only one season behind Beliveau for the longest tenure as Habs captain in history) wearing the C, so there's not really a leadership gap, to speak of. Gordie Howe clearly gives Ottawa the advantage when the 1st lines go head-to-head, but it will be a tight competition.
 

Rick Middleton

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Despite Sturm's vehement protestations, I have decided to release a picture of the secret weapon that we have developed to neutralize Gordie Howe:

2068877972_73c82b0669_o.jpg
 

reckoning

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Jan 4, 2005
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Sorry I haven't commented here yet, just wanted to make a few points:

- I will give the Isotopes the edge in goal, though I don't think it's nearly as large as some believe. In the book Without Fear: Hockey's 50 Greatest Goaltenders Dryden was rated #7 and Vezina #9. Vezina is often underrated because his great years in the NHA tend to be forgotten, and because the Hab defence in front of him in the 1920s wasn't very strong. After he was forced to retire at the start of the 1925-26 season, Montreal plummeted to last place with their rising GAA being the main factor.

- I love Brad Park, but I still feel Clancy was better. Frank Selke in his autobiography Behind The Cheering goes so far as to say he felt Clancy was better than Doug Harvey! He was known for his low, accurate shot (low shots were Dryden's only weakness), and I don't feel his size will be any more of a detriment here than it would be for any other players from that era. He was smaller than most when he played and he was tough enough to survive, so he'll be alright here. He wasn't shy about using his stick as an equalizer in many battles, and had a reputation for being craftyenough to get away with a lot of trips without getting penalized.

- In regards to Sturm's questions about Jimmy Thomson's defensive abilities, in all fairness the above G&M article about the 1947 All-Star Game doesn't specifically blame Thomson, and regardless he was only 20 years old at the time. Defensive play doesn't leave behind statistics to judge the player by, but one indication (similar to the Vezina example is to look at the effect on Toronto's defence after Thomson was traded away:

56-57: 192 GA (4th overall) , 28.0 shots against per game (2nd overall)
57-58: 226 GA (6th overall), 33.6 shots against per game (5th overall)

It's quite a dropoff for a team with the same goalie and same defence (other than Thomson) for both years.

- As i said in my last series: I have Gordie ****ing Howe! 6 time playoff scoring leader. I can't see him being intimidated by Chara, and I can see any of their LWs providing much of a threat to stopping him. If Howe and my top line can consistently produce, the wins will come.

- What's more important than anything else is looks of the respective coaches:

frozen_inside061407.jpg

Look at him. Suave, debonair, sophisticated. He could've replaced Newman or Redford in The Sting and it would've been an even bigger movie.

Now compare that to....

e622b2ae-7c25-452c-94fb-66a0b888a898.jpg

He's so old he can't enough stay awake during the games. And he's practically bald (a direct contrast to Lindy's distinguished receding hairline.)
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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- the most obvious advantage for Springfield in this series is Dryden vs. the Ottawa goalies. It shouldn't require much analysis, but I would also like to point out that Vezina is an old-time goalie and, at least in my opinion, is probably not going to be up to playing 7 consecutive playoff games, if the series goes that far. Dryden sat for 20 minutes of his entire playoff career in Montreal and will, of course, start every game for the Isotopes. The matchup here is really Dryden vs. 5-6 games of Vezina and 1-2 games of Crozier, which is even more lopsided than a straight Dryden vs. Vezina matchup.

It's tricky to determine how many games the early goalies could have played. I think it's worth noting that Vezina played eight years in the NHL (before getting tuberculosis) and missed exactly one game during that span. He played in more games than any goalie, both in the regular season and playoffs, prior to his death. In terms of durability, Vezina was the best of his era.

Generally we accept that goalies from the distant past, who didn't have access to modern equipment and techniques, would be able to compete in the ATD. It would be inconsistent to "adjust" for an ancient goalie's technique/equipment, but not take his longevity/durability into account. Obviously I'm not saying that Vezina (or even Glen Hall) would play all 82 games + playoffs in our hypothetical season; I just mean that we should recognize that they were the most durable goalies of their respective eras and, therefore, we should work on the assumption that they have enough durability to last for 60ish regular season games and a full playoff run.
 

reckoning

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Jan 4, 2005
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Exactly. Vezina was hockey's original "Iron Man". The idea that he can't play a full series because of the era he came from doesn't make sense.

Hockey Outsider said:
Generally we accept that goalies from the distant past, who didn't have access to modern equipment and techniques, would be able to compete in the ATD. It would be inconsistent to "adjust" for an ancient goalie's technique/equipment, but not take his longevity/durability into account.
Agreed. I think the same adjustments should apply to height and weight as well.
 

Sturminator

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- no comment on the book that places Vezina 9th all-time among goalies.

I love Brad Park, but I still feel Clancy was better. Frank Selke in his autobiography Behind The Cheering goes so far as to say he felt Clancy was better than Doug Harvey! He was known for his low, accurate shot (low shots were Dryden's only weakness), and I don't feel his size will be any more of a detriment here than it would be for any other players from that era. He was smaller than most when he played and he was tough enough to survive, so he'll be alright here. He wasn't shy about using his stick as an equalizer in many battles, and had a reputation for being craftyenough to get away with a lot of trips without getting penalized.

Other than the obvious advantage in physicality, I'm not sure Park really was better than Clancy. The physical advantage is telling, however. Park was a feared hip-checker and a very strong man. One of my favorite hockey memories is of Brad Park and Bobby Orr squaring off at center ice in (I think it was) game 2 of the 1972 Cup finals. It was a hell of a fight, and a hell of a brawl between the teams, actually. Clancy was, as you said, tough enough to survive, but it's hard to deny that he's at a disadvantage against strong, physical forwards - a disadvantage that Park does not suffer. Brad Park also has a sterling playoff record, and while we can't draw too many conclusions from playoff scoring among defensemen in Clancy's era, the King's postseason performances don't appear to be on the same level.

In regards to Sturm's questions about Jimmy Thomson's defensive abilities, in all fairness the above G&M article about the 1947 All-Star Game doesn't specifically blame Thomson, and regardless he was only 20 years old at the time. Defensive play doesn't leave behind statistics to judge the player by, but one indication (similar to the Vezina example is to look at the effect on Toronto's defence after Thomson was traded away:

56-57: 192 GA (4th overall) , 28.0 shots against per game (2nd overall)
57-58: 226 GA (6th overall), 33.6 shots against per game (5th overall)

It's quite a dropoff for a team with the same goalie and same defence (other than Thomson) for both years.

This is a pretty thin reed considering that Jimmy Thomson was on his last legs when the Leafs traded him and would retire after only one season in Chicago. I don't think Thomson was even a 1st pairing defenseman in Toronto by 56-57, as I recall Morrison being Horton's partner during this period. I have a hard time believing that the player Thomson was in 56-57 could have made that much difference to a team. Ted Kennedy's retirement and the fact that Tim Horton was injured in 57-58 and only played 53 games probably had a lot more to do with it.

The standards of what constitutes a good ATD #2 defenseman are quite high and there isn't really any evidence that Thomson meets them. While it's unfair to assume that he was weak in his own zone, we also have no reason to assume that he was great, and in this setting, greatness is pretty much the standard for 1st pairing players, because the forwards he's facing are great, in no uncertain terms. I don't think a player of Thomson's pedigree is a good matchup against a line like Barber - Ullman - Bathgate.

As i said in my last series: I have Gordie ****ing Howe! 6 time playoff scoring leader. I can't see him being intimidated by Chara, and I can see any of their LWs providing much of a threat to stopping him. If Howe and my top line can consistently produce, the wins will come.

No, I can't see Gordie Howe being intimidated by anyone, nor shut down by anyone. The goal is not to neutralize Howe, but to contain him. As far as the left wings are concerned, both Barber and Northcott have the strength and speed to hang with Howe, and both were very effective checkers. Nobody seems to question Northcott's checking abilities, but I wonder if some of the GMs here are unaware of what a strong 2-way player and competitor Bill Barber was. The best quotes about him come from his Legends bio, which can be found on Youtube.

Mike Bossy said:
Billy was a very good winger - always tough to play against...and, uh...an excellent checker. He was an excellent all-around player, Billy was.

Bryan Trottier also says some pretty nice things about Barber's competitiveness and gamesmanship here, as well.

Billy Smith said:
Billy Barber had a really good habit of trying to get under your skin - getting you off your game by bumping you, distracting you, yelling at you, talking to you. He was a great competitor.

Of course, agitating Gordie Howe in such a manner (nevermind diving) is a dangerous undertaking, but Barber was a guy who was always willing to pay the price to win.

Peter McNab said:
Billy Barber was as complete a player as there was in the NHL when he played. I mean he could score. He could pass. He could check. He could certainly play in the tough games. He had great speed...

Of course, these Legends videos make everyone sound like Superman, and Barber clearly was not. He was, however, a strong 2-way player and a real competitor with the strength and speed to hang with Gordie Howe. Probably the best quote about Barber is this one, though:

Red Fischer said:
You know...Bill Barber...his greatest value to the team is that he didn't imagine himself as being better than he actually was. I mean...Bill Barber, and of course others on the team, knew that Bobby Clarke was the leader. Bill Barber knew that Bernie Parent was the goaltender who made things work. And that was good enough for Bill Barber. That's what he wanted to be and he tried to be the best that he could at that.

Fischer doesn't say what "that" actually is, but what he means is that in spite of his talent, Barber was a good soldier who was happy to play a supporting role on a team that needed him to do so. Well, he's in that role again. I said it previously, but Bill Barber may have been the most important pick Rick and I made because I knew we'd eventually have to deal with Howe or Cook in this division. Of all the 1st line left wings in the draft (meaning guys who can actually score), I can think of very few who I'd rather have matched up against Howe, not because Barber will shut Gordie down (to claim such a thing would be foolish), but because he has the right combination of physical ability, grit and skill to check Howe and prevent him from simply running wild.

The combination of tough checking LWs (and centers in support) and a very skilled and physical top-4 defense (not to mention Ken Dryden) make Springfield arguably the best suited of all the teams in the draft to defend Howe. Gordie will always get his points, but the Isotopes have the personnel to minimize the damage.
 

Sturminator

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It's tricky to determine how many games the early goalies could have played. I think it's worth noting that Vezina played eight years in the NHL (before getting tuberculosis) and missed exactly one game during that span. He played in more games than any goalie, both in the regular season and playoffs, prior to his death. In terms of durability, Vezina was the best of his era.

Generally we accept that goalies from the distant past, who didn't have access to modern equipment and techniques, would be able to compete in the ATD. It would be inconsistent to "adjust" for an ancient goalie's technique/equipment, but not take his longevity/durability into account. Obviously I'm not saying that Vezina (or even Glen Hall) would play all 82 games + playoffs in our hypothetical season; I just mean that we should recognize that they were the most durable goalies of their respective eras and, therefore, we should work on the assumption that they have enough durability to last for 60ish regular season games and a full playoff run.

Fair enough. Perhaps my prejudice against old-time goalies is unfair.
 

God Bless Canada

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I agree with your post Sturm. Norm Ullman is criminally underrated. He was every bit the player Syl Apps or even Henri Richard was.
I really like Ullman. I think he's very underrated. But he's a definite step below from Syl Apps. Sr.'s. Ullman's a credible No. 1 centre for this thing; I think you can make a case for Apps as one of the top 10 centres of all-time. He led the post-season in scoring in 42. He put up very good point totals for that time in the game's history. (I don't know if people realize how impressive eight points in nine games was in the late 40s).

He led the league in assists twice, and was second in points three times. A five-time all-star. (Only one selection, 43, came after the best went to war). He was over a point-per-game from 37 to 42 - very, very few players in the history of the game could have done that.
 
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God Bless Canada

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Funny, Sturm, I didn't hear any of the criticisms about Clancy in the last draft...

I think Sturm is really underrating King Clancy. Clancy's one of the best defencemen in the draft. He's quick, he's smart, and he is tough. Outside of Ted Lindsay, Clancy might be, pound-for-pound, the toughest player who ever played the game. He did face some bigger players in his time, Dit Clapper was 6'2" and Nels Stewart was 6'1", and Clancy didn't back down. And we all know about Clancy's great battles with Eddie Shore. Clancy was fearless, and he'll cause a lot of long nights for any who plays against him.

I'm not concerned about Clancy's playoff record. Defencemen were more encouraged to join the rush in Clancy's years, but keep in mind how incredibly difficult it was to put up points in the playoffs at that time. I don't know if any defenceman, except for Orr or Coffey, could have put up points in the 20s and 30s. Park certainly wouldn't have.

Sturm, I thought you and Nalyd had the best offensive trio in the last draft with Gretzky-Bathgate-Clancy. I think I called them the trio of terror. Well, reck has the Trio of Terror in this draft with Apps-Howe-Clancy.

I think Brad Park's the better defenceman, but I don't think it's by much.

As for the Thomson article, I don't know if it paints a true picture. Thomson was 19 and playing his first full year. Mortson was a 22-year-old rookie. Barilko was a 19-year-old rookie. Garth Bosch was an older rookie. Stanowski was the only real veteran on that defence. Got anything from 1951?

I don't think the 40s/50s Leafs get overrated. They seem to be the classic case of the defence that played better than the sum of its parts. Would Mortson/Thomson be the worst No. 1 defenceman ever for a dynasty team? Yes. But for whatever reason, that Leafs defence just worked.
 

reckoning

Registered User
Jan 4, 2005
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This is a pretty thin reed considering that Jimmy Thomson was on his last legs when the Leafs traded him and would retire after only one season in Chicago.
He was only 30 years old when he was traded, so I wouldn't say he was on his last legs. He was only traded because of his involvement with the Players Association, not because of any drop off in his play. He retired the next year because of the cold shoulder he was receiving, plus he was educated and capable enough to make a good living outside the game.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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West Egg, New York
He was only 30 years old when he was traded, so I wouldn't say he was on his last legs. He was only traded because of his involvement with the Players Association, not because of any drop off in his play. He retired the next year because of the cold shoulder he was receiving, plus he was educated and capable enough to make a good living outside the game.

30 was actually pretty old for a player of that generation. Very few players were able to sustain their prime production past the age of 30. Ted Kennedy, for example, retired at the age of 29 in the same offseason in which Thomson was traded.

I think Sturm is really underrating King Clancy.

Did you actually read what I wrote, GBC? I see no particular reason to repeat myself. The strongest criticism I made of Clancy was the statement that his playoff record is essentially neutral, while Park's is an obvious plus. Considering the clumsy points-per-game breakdown I could have done with the King's playoff scoring record, my comment was pretty even-handed. I don't see any reason to criticize Clancy's playoff record, but I don't see any reason to praise it, either.

The statement that Brad Park "certainly wouldn't have" put up points in the playoffs in Clancy's era is ridiculous. Brad Park is one of the greatest playoff performers in NHL history. Saying that his playoff record is better than Clancy's is hardly a stretch. In 77-78, Park finished the playoffs with a line of 9-11-20 in 15 games, one off the NHL lead in points and goals (both held by Habs players) for a team on which the next best offensive producers (in that postseason, at least) were Peter McNab and Terry O'Reilly. He was a lock for the Conn-Smythe had the Bruins prevailed in the finals, which of course, they did not. It was one of many great playoff runs for Brad Park, and quite possibly the greatest postseason performance ever by a defenseman not named Orr.

As for criticisms about Clancy in the last draft, have you forgotten how often the Seals were called small and soft?
 

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