ATD #9 Milt Dunnell Cup: Buffalo Bisons vs. Detroit Falcons

[FissionFire]

Buffalo Bisons
Coach: Dick Irvin
Asst coach & Trainer: Lloyd Percival

Busher Jackson - Stan Mikita(A) - Vaclav Nedomansky
Alex Delvecchio - Tod Sloan - Eddie Litzenberger(C)
Don Marshall - Fleming Mackell - Jerry Toppazzini
Johnny Wilson - Orland Kurtenbach - Murray Balfour
Bill Red Hay

Bill White - Pierre Pilote (A)
Carl Brewer - Neil Colville
Frank Patrick - Doug Barkley
Pat Egan

Chuck Rayner
Gerry McNeil

PP#1
Busher Jackson - Stan Mikita - Vaclav Nedomansky
Frank Patrick - Pierre Pilote

PP#2
Alex Delvecchio - Tod Sloan - Eddie Litzenberger
Carl Brewer - Neil Colville

PK#1
Don Marshall - Jerry Toppazzini
Bill White - Pierre Pilote

PK#2
Johnny Wilson - Fleming Mackell
Carl Brewer - Neil Colville



Detroit Falcons
Coach: Roger Neilson

Doug Bentley (A) - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Gordie Drillon
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Bill Goldsworthy
Bernie Morris

Red Kelly (A) - Émile Bouchard (C)
George Boucher - Si Griffis
Vitaly Davydov - Mike Grant
Glen Harmon

Frank Brimsek
Viktor Konovalenko
Tom Paton

PP#1
Doug Bentley - Bill Cowley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Red Kelly - Max Bentley

PP#2
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Gordie Drillon
George Boucher - Mike Grant

PK#1
Ed Westfall - Guy Carbonneau
Émile Bouchard - George Boucher

PK#2
Jack Walker - Bert Olmstead
Vitaly Davydov - Red Kelly
Red Kelly taking the faceoffs​

Click to read more...

 

[God Bless Canada]

I'll have more comments on this later tonight or tomorrow. (Preparing for a charity golf tournament Thursday, and big racing event in town tonight). But I will say congrats to Buffalo and Detroit on making it this far.

A bit of an ironic match-up. Pappy got this far by assembling the type of team that has usually succeeded. They're balanced, well-coached and can beat you any type of way. Yes, there are some of the usual traits of a pappyline team: lots of old-time/Original 6 players (something I've always admired about pappy's teams - five ATDs and an MLD, and he has yet to pick an active player), excellent team speed, outstanding hockey sense, and an ability to score a lot of goals in a hurry. But there's a greater emphasis on team defence and team toughness than ever before.

Eagle, meanwhile, has the type of team that usually doesn't do that well in this thing. They're sleek, skilled and savvy, but team defence is lacking, and team toughness is almost non-existent. Ironically, it's the type of team that pappy iced in his initial drafts, right down to the presence of pappy favourites like Max and Doug Bentley. (Note: it is great to see a team with the Bentley's in the final). They also don't have any active players, and their only people with a recent impact on the game are Carbonneau and Neilson. They aren't balanced, but no team in the draft could match Detroit's speed and offensive pinnache. And really, it wasn't very close.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Congratulation to the Buffalo Bisons, my favourite team in the draft. I'm really looking to this matchup.

 

[pitseleh]

Congrats to both EB and pappy for making it this far. Sorry I wasn't around much for the last set of series, life got hectic with exams then I had to head out of town for a week.

I'll post some comments in the next few days.

 

[pappyline]

Congrats to EB & his Falcons in making the finals. The Falcons have some of my favorite players (notably the Bentleys) & I am looking forward to the match up.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Some more in-depth comments....

As stated earlier (and as alluded to by pappy), it's a bit of an ironic match-up, in that Buffalo is facing a team that pappy would be proud of, and it's filled with pappy type of players.

Good to see a couple guys in the final for the first time. HO and pit are two of my favourites, but we did need someone new in here. (Note: pit, that's not why I voted against Nanaimo when they faced Trail).

Key for Buffalo is stopping the Detroit trio of terror: the Bentley's and Red Kelly. In case you haven't noticed, we've been seeing a lot of Red Kelly and "Magic" Max Bentley in all-star voting. And for good reason - Kelly should be a top 15 pick in this format, and Bentley's one of the best clutch scorers of all-time. And Max has his magnificent brother playing with him. I think it's going to be a concerted effort by Buffalo to stop the Bentley's - they're fortunate in that they have three centres, plus Alex Delvecchio, who could be effective against Max Bentley. (I have my doubts about Orland Kurtenbach's ability to play against Bentley). Does pappy go with the horses that got him this far? Or does he bring in Bill Hay in place of Kurtenbach to give his team a little more speed and hockey sense?

I think Carl Brewer could be a very important player for Buffalo. I think Brewer might be the most underrated defenceman of all-time. Even more than Buffalo teammate Pierre Pilote. Brewer's quick, he's incredibly smart on the ice, and he's tough - the traits you want against guys like the Bentley's, Hextall and Cowley. He's not big, but I think he's strong enough and tough enough to handle Olmstead, too. Murray Balfour could also be an important player, as he could be a good match-up against Doug Bentley.

All this hype about Detroit's top line, but don't discount Buffalo's first line. Jackson and Mikita are two of the few players that can rival the Bentley's offensive ability. Yet they both bring a physical dimension that the Bentley's can't match. Jackson isn't the two-way player that Doug is, but he's much more physical. Mikita's all-round game is definitely better than Max's, although the offensive game is closer than you might think. Nedomansky, much like a Yakushev, uses his size and strength advantages more for the skill game than for hitting and toughness.

Personel-wise, an edge to Detroit on the second line. Detroit had a very good team before they traded for Cowley; they became a championship threat once they got him. But I think Buffalo's second line is the better line. I've been raving about it all draft. All three players can play multiple positions, and all three can play centre. Delvecchio is a game-breaker (imagine the numbers he would have put up if he played his prime after expansion), Sloan is a double-tough two-way centre, and Litzenberger is a sheer offensive threat with three top six finishes in scoring.

Detroit has obvious edges in speed, skill, and scoring. And goaltending. Rayner's a heck of a goalie, a worthy No. 1. Brimsek's a cut above him, though. It is interesting that finally a team has been rewarded for waiting to pick a goalie. pappy addressed more relevant needs first, then selected his No. 1 netminder.

But is this the time when Detroit's liabilities finally bite them hard? Team toughness has been a question mark. But they've survived. So has team defence. For the first time in the draft, they're faced with a team that isn't as potent offensively, but it's not the edge they've had in other series. And they're facing a team with excellent team toughness, team defence and team speed. Minnesota had the defence and the toughness, but not the offence or the speed.

How does Detroit handle Buffalo's depth? Do they take chances with a flat-out line for line battle? Might be a good idea. Or do they stick Carbonneau on Magic Max any chance they get? It would help. But then Buffalo's second line gets free reign. Pappy would love to have Sloan's line out there against Cowley's line, or McGee's line.

Coaching is the other big edge for Buffalo. So far, the Neilson/Detroit mix hasn't been an issue like I thought it might be. But Neilson has also faced a lot of equal coaches, guys like Burns and Keenan. The one series where there was a mismatch, versus KC's Pete Green, KC didn't have enough of an edge to exploit it. There is a big difference between Neilson and Irvin. And if you think these two teams are that close, and it's going to come down to something, it'll probably be coaching.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Congrats to both teams for making it it this far. This is such an even matchup that I'm having trouble coming up with decisive reasons why either team would win. Instead I'll just build on GBC's comments:

Personel-wise, an edge to Detroit on the second line. Detroit had a very good team before they traded for Cowley; they became a championship threat once they got him. But I think Buffalo's second line is the better line. I've been raving about it all draft. All three players can play multiple positions, and all three can play centre. Delvecchio is a game-breaker (imagine the numbers he would have put up if he played his prime after expansion), Sloan is a double-tough two-way centre, and Litzenberger is a sheer offensive threat with three top six finishes in scoring.

I think Detroit gets the advantage here. Sloan plays two ways but he won't come close to Cowley's offense (8-3 edge top ten in scoring; 4-1 edge top five in scoring). Drillon and Litzenberger are surprisingly close offensively; Drillon was a much more consistent scorer though Litzenberger clearly get the edge defensively. Delvecchio gets the edge offensively over Olmstead despite the latter's superior defense/physical play. Overall Buffalo has better defensive players on their second line but the Cowley/Sloan offensive comparison gives the edge to the Falcons.

Detroit has obvious edges in speed, skill, and scoring. And goaltending. Rayner's a heck of a goalie, a worthy No. 1. Brimsek's a cut above him, though. It is interesting that finally a team has been rewarded for waiting to pick a goalie. pappy addressed more relevant needs first, then selected his No. 1 netminder.

Agreed. Brimsek will likely steal a game or two. I'm not convinced that Rayner can do the same, though I'm comfortable that he won't cost Buffalo any games.

But is this the time when Detroit's liabilities finally bite them hard? Team toughness has been a question mark. But they've survived. So has team defence. For the first time in the draft, they're faced with a team that isn't as potent offensively, but it's not the edge they've had in other series. And they're facing a team with excellent team toughness, team defence and team speed. Minnesota had the defence and the toughness, but not the offence or the speed.

Agreed again. Mikita/Bentley and Sloan/Cowley are both bad matchups in terms of two-way play. Additionally, Drillon was regarded as one of the worst defensive players of his era (as per Ultimate Hockey). Detroit actually has the better shutdown line (Carbonneau/Westfall) but will the lack of two-way players on their top two lines be the difference?

How does Detroit handle Buffalo's depth? Do they take chances with a flat-out line for line battle? Might be a good idea. Or do they stick Carbonneau on Magic Max any chance they get? It would help. But then Buffalo's second line gets free reign. Pappy would love to have Sloan's line out there against Cowley's line, or McGee's line.

Agreed. I'd like to here EB's take on strategy. The Carbonneau/Westfall line is one of the best defensive duos in the draft though Buffalo has very good scoring depth on their third line.

Coaching is the other big edge for Buffalo. So far, the Neilson/Detroit mix hasn't been an issue like I thought it might be.

Agreed that Buffalo has the edge, but it's not a big edge. As I explained last round, Irvin has a surprisingly weak playoff record. Yes, he won four Stanley Cups, but he also lost in 7 SC Finals series. He consistently coached excellent teams -- 16 times they finished 1st or 2nd in the league-- and they consistently faded in the playoffs. Irvin deserves credit for his four championships, but also deserves some amount of blame for a disappointing playoff record overall.

Neilson obviously lacks Irvin's playoff success but his innovations (subtle understanding of the rulebook, extensive use of video replay) will help keep this close. Did Neilson match Irvin's playoff success? No. Can he out-coach him in a one-on-one showdown? Yes, it's possible.

 

[pappyline]

GBC & Hockey outsider have both done a good & fair analysis.

GBC makes a good point about putting Hay in for Kurtenbach to check Max and I may do that some games. People don't realize how good defensively Hay was. He started off as the million $ line set up centre for Hull & finished off as a defensive 3rd line LW. I plan on dressing Hay some games. I also plan on mixing my lines up quite a bit. I think that, Mikita, Hay, Sloan, & Mackell all match up well with Max & Cowley. Either Balfour or Toppazzini can check Doug. Buffalo has the depth & flexibility to play any team.

Hockey Outsider, you seem to have a thing against Sloan & irvin. You were critical in the last series also, I agree the Cowley is better offensively but the difference is not that great. Sloan was hampered by shoulder problems for several years otherwise he would have had more top 10 finishes. On the attack, Sloan had unique moves for his day. He was also known for his defensive game.

Coach Irvin was in 16 Stanley cup finals which is incredible. Sure he only won 4 cups but he was up against Toronto & Detroit dynasties. Hockey outsider, would you think more highly of Irvin if he only made 6 finals & won 4 of them. Neilsen, on the other hand, was in one final as a head coach & lost it.

 

[seventieslord]

Sloan having shoulder problems is part of the package you get when you pick him, though. He'd have had more top-10 finishes if he didn't have the injuries, but he did have the injuries.

Congrats to both finalists, by the way.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Congrats to both teams for making it it this far. This is such an even matchup that I'm having trouble coming up with decisive reasons why either team would win. Instead I'll just build on GBC's comments:



I think Detroit gets the advantage here. Sloan plays two ways but he won't come close to Cowley's offense (8-3 edge top ten in scoring; 4-1 edge top five in scoring). Drillon and Litzenberger are surprisingly close offensively; Drillon was a much more consistent scorer though Litzenberger clearly get the edge defensively. Delvecchio gets the edge offensively over Olmstead despite the latter's superior defense/physical play. Overall Buffalo has better defensive players on their second line but the Cowley/Sloan offensive comparison gives the edge to the Falcons.



Agreed. Brimsek will likely steal a game or two. I'm not convinced that Rayner can do the same, though I'm comfortable that he won't cost Buffalo any games.



Agreed again. Mikita/Bentley and Sloan/Cowley are both bad matchups in terms of two-way play. Additionally, Drillon was regarded as one of the worst defensive players of his era (as per Ultimate Hockey). Detroit actually has the better shutdown line (Carbonneau/Westfall) but will the lack of two-way players on their top two lines be the difference?



Agreed. I'd like to here EB's take on strategy. The Carbonneau/Westfall line is one of the best defensive duos in the draft though Buffalo has very good scoring depth on their third line.



Agreed that Buffalo has the edge, but it's not a big edge. As I explained last round, Irvin has a surprisingly weak playoff record. Yes, he won four Stanley Cups, but he also lost in 7 SC Finals series. He consistently coached excellent teams -- 16 times they finished 1st or 2nd in the league-- and they consistently faded in the playoffs. Irvin deserves credit for his four championships, but also deserves some amount of blame for a disappointing playoff record overall.

Neilson obviously lacks Irvin's playoff success but his innovations (subtle understanding of the rulebook, extensive use of video replay) will help keep this close. Did Neilson match Irvin's playoff success? No. Can he out-coach him in a one-on-one showdown? Yes, it's possible.

As I said before, I think Detroit's second line has an edge in terms of personnel. But building great lines isn't just about having personnel. It's about finding players that will mesh together and work together. That's what matters - getting three guys to play as one. And I think the Delvecchio-Sloan-Litzenberger trio works better, as a unit, than Olmstead-Cowley-Drillon.

That's nothing against Detroit's second line. The Cowley acquisition was the most important move that Detroit made. It might be the biggest trade steal in five drafts that I have been a part of. But that Sloan line works.

I would say that Delvecchio is better defensively than Olmstead. Olmstead obviously has the physical edge - he's the one bona fide, top-notch physical presence in Detroit's top six. (Hextall can get tough when he needs to, but his physical presence is not that of Mikita, Sloan or Jackson). Delvecchio is really, really underrated around here.

I think Rayner can steal a game. He backstopped a clunker NYR team to the Cup final in 1950. And thanks to Rayner, they nearly beat a loaded Detroit team that was just starting to dominate.

 

[pappyline]

Sloan having shoulder problems is part of the package you get when you pick him, though. He'd have had more top-10 finishes if he didn't have the injuries, but he did have the injuries.

valid point. Injury issues are part of the package, I just wanted to point out that a healthy Sloan was not all that far behind Cowley offensively and also to explain why Sloan had a few down years offensively.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Hockey Outsider, you seem to have a thing against Sloan & irvin. You were critical in the last series also, I agree the Cowley is better offensively but the difference is not that great. Sloan was hampered by shoulder problems for several years otherwise he would have had more top 10 finishes. On the attack, Sloan had unique moves for his day. He was also known for his defensive game.



Coach Irvin was in 16 Stanley cup finals which is incredible. Sure he only won 4 cups but he was up against Toronto & Detroit dynasties. Hockey outsider, would you think more highly of Irvin if he only made 6 finals & won 4 of them. Neilsen, on the other hand, was in one final as a head coach & lost it.

I don't have anything against Sloan or Irvin, I just think they're the only two relative weaknesses on a very strong team.

I like Sloan as a player, but he's had unfavourable matchups in the past two series (facing off against Larionov and Cowley, both of whom I ranked in my top 80 for the HoH Top 100 project). If the second line centres he faced were, say, Federko and Damphousse, I'd be using Sloan as an argument in your favour.

I would have a higher opinion of Irvin if he went 4-for-6 or even 4-for-10 in the finals. Somewhere along the way to #16, the advantage of experience gets offset by the disadvantage of losing so often. Despite that Irvin clearly has a better coaching record than Neilson. (Neilsen remains one of the most intelligent, insightful and coaches I've ever followed, though, in fairness to Irvin, I probably don't know enough about him to make a fair comparison).

 

[pappyline]

I would have a higher opinion of Irvin if he went 4-for-6 or even 4-for-10 in the finals. Somewhere along the way to #16, the advantage of experience gets offset by the disadvantage of losing so often. Despite that Irvin clearly has a better coaching record than Neilson. (Neilsen remains one of the most intelligent, insightful and coaches I've ever followed, though, in fairness to Irvin, I probably don't know enough about him to make a fair comparison).

You can't win the cup without getting to the final & Irvin got there 16 times and lost a lot to some great Leaf & red Wing teams. To me that is an incredible accomplishment. IF he didn't make the final but got knocked out earlier that would give him a better final win\loss but so what.Making the finals 16 times and winning 4 is to me more impressive than winning 4 but only making the finals 6 times. Neilsen might have been insightful but he didn't win anything. As far as coaching success Irvin blows him away. To say the Bisons's coaching is a weakness just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Leaf Lander]

valid point. Injury issues are part of the package, I just wanted to point out that a healthy Sloan was not all that far behind Cowley offensively and also to explain why Sloan had a few down years offensively.

sloan was a spitfire a energy player who was said to had been the deciding reason why the leafs won there cup in 51

 

[God Bless Canada]

What's the deadline to vote for this thing? I have my votes in already, but I think I might be the only one.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I really want my third line to lineup against the Bisons's first offensive line. As much as an offensive force my first line his, I think it's the first matchup where the Bentley's would suffer playing against theo ther team first line. The Jackson-Mikita duo is one of my favourite in the whole draft. At home, the 2nd line would matchup (as I think I have an edge).

As much of a quality top-4 the Bisons have at defense, I think I edged them out. I understand mine is very offensive, but can they still play a smart defensive game if needed. I have a lot of respect for the Bisons first line of Jackson-Mikita-Nedomansky, but I feel very confident that a 5-man unit consisted of Walker-Carbonneau-Westfall-Kelly-Bouchard can stop them. At the very least, I think they will be more efficient at stopping them vs. anything the Bisons can throw at me against the Bentley's.

We talked about Irvin Sr., and I would of said it would of been an edge for the Bisons in any series except the finals. It's mind puzzling as to how a great coach as Irvin can have such a poor win-lose record in finals. It helped the Bisons making it to the finals having a brilliant coach as Irvin coaching them, but in the finals it's tough making a case it's an edge for them.

I think goaltenders is a definite edge for the Falcons. Some point it out that Raynor was able to steal som game for the Rangers in 1950. However, as much as he was a force in these playoffs, Raynor performance in 1950 was the highlight of his career: never again was he able to repeat such a feat. On the contrary, I think Brimsek constant ability to steal game is a definite edge for us. Will Rayner be able to steal a game or two for the Bisons? Perhaps, but there's a greater chance that Brimsek steal some game for the Falcons than Rayner steal some for the Bisons.

 

[pappyline]

I really want my third line to lineup against the Bisons's first offensive line. As much as an offensive force my first line his, I think it's the first matchup where the Bentley's would suffer playing against theo ther team first line. The Jackson-Mikita duo is one of my favourite in the whole draft. At home, the 2nd line would matchup (as I think I have an edge).

As much of a quality top-4 the Bisons have at defense, I think I edged them out. I understand mine is very offensive, but can they still play a smart defensive game if needed. I have a lot of respect for the Bisons first line of Jackson-Mikita-Nedomansky, but I feel very confident that a 5-man unit consisted of Walker-Carbonneau-Westfall-Kelly-Bouchard can stop them. At the very least, I think they will be more efficient at stopping them vs. anything the Bisons can throw at me against the Bentley's.

We talked about Irvin Sr., and I would of said it would of been an edge for the Bisons in any series except the finals. It's mind puzzling as to how a great coach as Irvin can have such a poor win-lose record in finals. It helped the Bisons making it to the finals having a brilliant coach as Irvin coaching them, but in the finals it's tough making a case it's an edge for them.

I think goaltenders is a definite edge for the Falcons. Some point it out that Raynor was able to steal som game for the Rangers in 1950. However, as much as he was a force in these playoffs, Raynor performance in 1950 was the highlight of his career: never again was he able to repeat such a feat. On the contrary, I think Brimsek constant ability to steal game is a definite edge for us. Will Rayner be able to steal a game or two for the Bisons? Perhaps, but there's a greater chance that Brimsek steal some game for the Falcons than Rayner steal some for the Bisons.

Eb. Good to hear from you. Interesting that every time I had the Bentleys I got knocked out in the first round. Glad to see a Bentley led team in the final.You have put together a nice team but you are grasping at straws when you say Irvin as a coach is a weakness.

First of all the Irvin won 4 Stanley cups. You can count the number of coaches that won 4 Stanley cups on the fingers of one hand. Secondly he made the cup finals 16 times. Has anybody else accomplished this. In mamy of those finals he coached the underdog & often it was against a dynasty. Would his record look better to you if he got knocked out in the first round more often. His teams made the final because he was one helluva coach, Your guy-Neilsen-never won anything.

As far as forward line match-ups, the Bison's have so much depth that I don't really care. I do think I have the overall home ice advantage so I will match up your third line against my 3rd or 4th & we can all get bored watching them check each other.I don't really have a checking line. I have 4 lines that can check & score. I would be happy going line against line-1stvs 1st, 2nd vs 2nd, etc.

As far as D, Kelly is the best but my top 4 are better.

In goal, I give you a slight edge with Brimsek, However, you really under-rate Rayner. Sure 1950 was his big year but he played on some pretty bad teams & missed some prime seasons during the war. Still found some time to win a Hart. Not really depending on Rayner to steal a game but he is capable of it

 

[EagleBelfour]

Eb. Good to hear from you. Interesting that every time I had the Bentleys I got knocked out in the first round. Glad to see a Bentley led team in the final.You have put together a nice team but you are grasping at straws when you say Irvin as a coach is a weakness.

First of all the Irvin won 4 Stanley cups. You can count the number of coaches that won 4 Stanley cups on the fingers of one hand. Secondly he made the cup finals 16 times. Has anybody else accomplished this. In mamy of those finals he coached the underdog & often it was against a dynasty. Would his record look better to you if he got knocked out in the first round more often. His teams made the final because he was one helluva coach, Your guy-Neilsen-never won anything.

As far as forward line match-ups, the Bison's have so much depth that I don't really care. I do think I have the overall home ice advantage so I will match up your third line against my 3rd or 4th & we can all get bored watching them check each other.I don't really have a checking line. I have 4 lines that can check & score. I would be happy going line against line-1stvs 1st, 2nd vs 2nd, etc.

As far as D, Kelly is the best but my top 4 are better.

In goal, I give you a slight edge with Brimsek, However, you really under-rate Rayner. Sure 1950 was his big year but he played on some pretty bad teams & missed some prime seasons during the war. Still found some time to win a Hart. Not really depending on Rayner to steal a game but he is capable of it

I was hard on Irvin yes, but a 4-12 record in final is nothing that impressive. I'm not sure if I called Irvin a weakness (did I), but I can't count him as an edge over Neilson at this point in the serie.

The Falcons have also great depth, but it's true that your lines are perhaps more versatile than mine. I'll definitely be harder for the Falcons in Buffalo than in Detroit.

Probably the biggest point I'll disagree with you. I do believe the Falcons have the best top-4 between us. I feel my top 2 duos are well constructed. Kelly is an edge over Pilote. Bouchard is an edge over White. Buck and Brewer are kind of equal (although I give a slight edge to Boucher) and I would take Griffis over Colville, who's versatility is of very few use now that we are in the finals. For me there's no doubt that my top-4 is an edge over yours.

I do believe Rayner is a number one goaltender in these drafts, but Brimsek is a good head over Brimsek in term of constancy and overall career. It's a point that I think no one will be able to solve: some think having an ace in goal is extremely important while others think having a capable goaltender at most in goal will do the job. We know which side your on and we know which side I am on. Anyway, at the very least we do have to agree that Brimsek is an edge over Rayner.

 

[pappyline]

I was hard on Irvin yes, but a 4-12 record in final is nothing that impressive. I'm not sure if I called Irvin a weakness (did I), but I can't count him as an edge over Neilson at this point in the serie.

The Falcons have also great depth, but it's true that your lines are perhaps more versatile than mine. I'll definitely be harder for the Falcons in Buffalo than in Detroit.

Probably the biggest point I'll disagree with you. I do believe the Falcons have the best top-4 between us. I feel my top 2 duos are well constructed. Kelly is an edge over Pilote. Bouchard is an edge over White. Buck and Brewer are kind of equal (although I give a slight edge to Boucher) and I would take Griffis over Colville, who's versatility is of very few use now that we are in the finals. For me there's no doubt that my top-4 is an edge over yours.

I do believe Rayner is a number one goaltender in these drafts, but Brimsek is a good head over Brimsek in term of constancy and overall career. It's a point that I think no one will be able to solve: some think having an ace in goal is extremely important while others think having a capable goaltender at most in goal will do the job. We know which side your on and we know which side I am on. Anyway, at the very least we do have to agree that Brimsek is an edge over Rayner.

As far as Irvun goes, I think a 4-12 final record is very impressive. Anybody that thinks a 4-6 record is better doesn;t make any sense. All that says is that the coach either missed the playoffs or lost in fthe first round in those 6 seasons.Irvin is a huge edge over Neilson.

I do like your defense. Kelly & pilote are actually very close. Both were great on the offense but Pilote was tougher on defense & more physical. I think white is at worst equal to Boucher and Brewer is definitely better than Buck. Griffis, I don't know a lot about him but Colville was very skilled.

 

[EagleBelfour]

As far as Irvun goes, I think a 4-12 final record is very impressive. Anybody that thinks a 4-6 record is better doesn;t make any sense. All that says is that the coach either missed the playoffs or lost in fthe first round in those 6 seasons.Irvin is a huge edge over Neilson.

I do like your defense. Kelly & pilote are actually very close. Both were great on the offense but Pilote was tougher on defense & more physical. I think white is at worst equal to Boucher and Brewer is definitely better than Buck. Griffis, I don't know a lot about him but Colville was very skilled.

Since we are now in the finals, I think the record of 4-12 of Irvin is a disadvantage. I understnad your point that a coach making it to the final 16 times is very impressive, however in this situation, where WE ARE now in the finals, his record is somewhat hurting his stock. In any series except the finals, Irvin would of had a good advantage over Neilson. In this particular situation, the stock of Irvin is going down.

As for as the Kelly-Pilote comparision, it's really not close. It's true that Pilote as the physical edge (even though Kelly could play rough and tumble if needed) he's still ahead by a good margin offensively and defensively over Pilote. He's also the best PP and PK playero f the two. As far as your other comparision, I disagree and still stand that Emile is a better defenseman than White and Buck is equal if not better than Brewer. Griffis is in my opinion one of the best fourth defenseman in this draft and ahead of Colville in my book

 

[pappyline]

Since we are now in the finals, I think the record of 4-12 of Irvin is a disadvantage. I understnad your point that a coach making it to the final 16 times is very impressive, however in this situation, where WE ARE now in the finals, his record is somewhat hurting his stock. In any series except the finals, Irvin would of had a good advantage over Neilson. In this particular situation, the stock of Irvin is going down.

As for as the Kelly-Pilote comparision, it's really not close. It's true that Pilote as the physical edge (even though Kelly could play rough and tumble if needed) he's still ahead by a good margin offensively and defensively over Pilote. He's also the best PP and PK playero f the two. As far as your other comparision, I disagree and still stand that Emile is a better defenseman than White and Buck is equal if not better than Brewer. Griffis is in my opinion one of the best fourth defenseman in this draft and ahead of Colville in my book

Ok, Describe all of Neilsen's acomplishments in the finals. I believe he got there once & lost once. **** he wasn't even a head coach for long. Why do you think he gives you an advantage over Irvin. He couldn't hold on to a head coaching job and won squat & now you are telling me he is a better coach for a finals than Irvin. Actually my assistant coach Percival is probably on a level with Neilson. I usually don't pay much attention to coaches in these match ups but it galls me to see undeserved criicism of one of the best of all time. 4 out of 12 is a hell of a lot better than zeo out of one,

As fra as defence, I still think mine is better so I guess we will have to disagree. I will let the voters decide.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Ok, Describe all of Neilsen's acomplishments in the finals. I believe he got there once & lost once. **** he wasn't even a head coach for long. Why do you think he gives you an advantage over Irvin. He couldn't hold on to a head coaching job and won squat & now you are telling me he is a better coach for a finals than Irvin. Actually my assistant coach Percival is probably on a level with Neilson. I usually don't pay much attention to coaches in these match ups but it galls me to see undeserved criicism of one of the best of all time. 4 out of 12 is a hell of a lot better than zeo out of one,

As fra as defence, I still think mine is better so I guess we will have to disagree. I will let the voters decide.

I would like you to point out where I said Neilson was an advantage over Irvin (andi f I do, I didn't meant to write this). All I'm saying, is that the advantage a Irvin would have over Neilson in the regular season is shrunk in the finals do to his mind puzzling and abysmal finals record.

And yea, we'll have to let the voters decide which of our defense is better, because we won't get a consensus between us.

 

[FissionFire]

What's the deadline to vote for this thing? I have my votes in already, but I think I might be the only one.

Since the Top 100 list is due Wednesday, I think setting the deadline as Thursday 6/17 at midnight EST is best.

 

[God Bless Canada]

If Eagle wants to try to match second lines with Buffalo, he's in a lot of trouble. Alex Delvecchio will eat Detroit's second line alive. An outstanding playoff performer who can be a difference-maker in this series, and playing against Cowley and Drillon, likely will be a difference-maker in this series. And he's feeding passes to Sloan and Litzenberger.

I don't think the second line for Detroit matches up well against the second line of Buffalo one bit. The Litzenberger-Olmstead match-up should be great. So should Sloan (really underrated player) against Cowley. But Delvecchio vs. Drillon? Delvecchio could go for two points per game.

On paper, I like Detroit's top four more than Buffalo's. I think Detroit wins a match-up, on paper, at every spot. But I think Georges Boucher could be in trouble. He hasn't really faced a team with the speed to really challenge him. He is facing that team in this series. He could be suseptible against the fast skaters that dot the Sabres line-up.

I think Detroit's No. 2 (Bouchard) is better than Buffalo's No. 2 (Brewer), but I think it's closer than people might think. And Brewer's going to be a very valuable player against Detroit; he's the guy with the best shot of containing the Bentley's.

Coaching? Irvin won four Cups. Neilson won none. There is no doubt in my mind who the better coach is. Not only that, but pappy's team is much better suited to Irvin than Detroit is to Neilson.

 

[pitseleh]

A couple of keys to the series that I see:

- I know GBC touched on it, but I see Buffalo having a fairly significant edge in overall team toughness while not giving up much in terms of skill. While Detroit has some exceptionally tough players sprinkled through the lineup (Olmstead, Bouchard, etc.), Buffalo is a tough team to contain top to bottom, from stars like Mikita and Pilote to role players like Kurtenbach and Balfour. After the grueling playoffs that both teams have been through, I think this is a distinct advantage for Buffalo. Does Detroit have the talent to make up for this disadvantage?

- On the flipside, goaltending represents an advantage for Detroit in this series. While Buffalo has been able to negate advantages other teams have had in net through superior skaters, this series is much more even skillwise top to bottom. Is Rayner, relative to Brimsek, strong enough to withstand what should be his biggest test to date?

- For both teams, will either team be able to exploit what are relative weaknesses on each team's third pairing (compared to the rest of their defensive group)? Both teams have very strong top-4s, and the best opportunities will be when the third pairings are on the ice. I like Davydov and Patrick, but both are paired with players who are question marks to a certain extent (Grant playing in the very early days of hockey, Barkley having his career cut short at a young age). While both teams will try to avoid having them out against each others' top-6 forwards, I think Buffalo has the personnel in their bottom-6 to better take advantage of that matchup.

This one is really tight though and I look forward to reading more arguments.