ATD #9 Foster Hewitt Final: #1 Detroit Falcons vs. #2 Minnesota Fighting Saints

FissionFire

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Detroit Falcons
Coach: Roger Neilson

Doug Bentley (A) - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Gordie Drillon
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Bill Goldsworthy
Bernie Morris

Red Kelly (A) - Émile Bouchard (C)
George Boucher - Si Griffis
Vitaly Davydov - Mike Grant
Glen Harmon

Frank Brimsek
Viktor Konovalenko
Tom Paton

PP#1
Doug Bentley - Bill Cowley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Red Kelly - Max Bentley

PP#2
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Gordie Drillon
George Boucher - Mike Grant

PK#1
Ed Westfall - Guy Carbonneau
Émile Bouchard - George Boucher

PK#2
Jack Walker - Bert Olmstead
Vitaly Davydov - Red Kelly
Red Kelly taking the faceoffs



The Minnesota Fighting Saints
Coach: Pat Burns
Captain: Jean Beliveau
Alternate Captains: Earl Seibert & Rod Langway

Rick Martin - Jean Beliveau - Danny Gare
Nick Metz - Syd Howe - Anders Kallur
Adam Graves - Bobby Holik - Pavel Bure
Bob Errey - George "Red" Sullivan - Bill Ezinicki
Hobey Baker

Rod Langway - Earl Seibert
Alexander Ragulin - Edward Ivanov
Carol Vadnais - Dallas Smith
Sylvain Lefebvre

Harry "Hap" Holmes
Mike Liut

PP#1
Adam Graves - Jean Beliveau - Pavel Bure
Carol Vadnais - Earl Seibert

PP#2
Rick Martin - Syd Howe - Danny Gare
Alexander Ragulin - Edward Ivanov

PK#1
Syd Howe - Nick Metz
Rod Langway - Earl Seibert

PK#2
George "Red" Sullivan - Anders Kallur
Alexander Ragulin - Dallas Smith​
 
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God Bless Canada

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I think this series comes down to two things:

1. How will the Fighting Saints contain the elite speed and skill of the Falcons;

2. How will the Falcons handle the brute strength of the Fighting Saints?

I think whichever team does the better job of handling a pretty significant mis-match will be victorious.

Detroit is probably the fastest team remaining, and I would say they're the most offensively dangerous. They have two very potent scoring lines, and their fourth line can contribute offensively, too. They have the best defenceman remaining in the playoffs in Red Kelly. Their defence is highly skilled and capable of moving the puck.

I think Detroit definitely has an edge in goal with Brimsek. As much as I love Holmes, Brimsek is the better goalie. I don't think that edge is going to be THE difference in this series, but I think there is an edge.

Minnesota has the edge in toughness. The question is: can they catch the Falcons speedsters? Bobby Holik has never faced anything like Max Bentley. I think Bentley is about No. 6 or 7 all-time for offensive centres. He put up points in the playoffs at an incredible rate. He's fast, he's a marvellous stick-handler and playmaker, and he thinks the game at a completely different level. People will question if he can put up points against Earl Seibert; he put up the numbers facing guys like Butch Bouchard and Black Jack Stewart. Bentley will definitely get points in this series.

This is where a guys like Beliveau, Gare and Metz will be very important for Minnesota. They're going to lean on the guys who have the speed, hockey sense and defensive ability to keep up with Detroit's gunners.

One match-up I try to avoid if I'm Minnesota is Bure vs. Doug Bentley. Avoid it at all costs. Bentley has the speed, creativity and defensive smarts to outwit Pavel at every turn, and he has the skill to put up a lot of points.

A definite edge on team defence to Minnesota. Detroit has some nice defensive forwards for their third line, and Doug Bentley is one of the best two-way forwards ever. But outside of Bure and Martin, Minnesota's forwards are excellent back-checkers. And their defence corps, with the exception of Vadenais, are reliable in their own zone.

I don't think Burns is necessarily a better coach than Roger Neilson, but I think Burns' team is definitely better-suited to his style than Neilson's team.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Because Howe's mobility would be a great asset against Max Bentley, but, as GBC pointed out, Bure vs Doug Bentley is a bad idea.

This way, either Martin-Beliveau-Gare or Metz-Howe-Ezinicki/Kallur can effectively play against the Bentleys.

Obviously shutting down the Bentleys is priority #1 for the Fighting Saints, and those forward lines combined with the Joint Chiefs of Defense will give us a better chance of containing them than any of the Falcon's previous opponents.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Just thought I'd touch on strategy for a bit.

As you may notice, I have it so Ezinicki and Kallur aren't on fixed lines. This is because I like the versitility and stylistic differences they both bring and want to gives Metz and Howe a large role, a larger role than I would give Ezinicki or Kallur. The Howe-Metz combo can effectively play against either of Detroit's scoring line, either as a pure shadow to the Bentley's or to counter attack on the worst defensive line in the draft, that being the Cowley-Drillon swiss cheese combo. (On that note, while the plan is to keep Bure far away from the Bentleys, if he's on the ice against the Cowley-Drillon line, we won't rush him off, how many times will we get the chance to say Bure isn't the worst defensive player on the ice. Heck, he may just be the 3rd worst defensive player, possibly the 4th worst in the series with Lynn "terrible playoff player" Patrick up there as well.) Sorry, got distracted by the Falcons terrible backchecking. Anyway, our strategy is to trap, grind and hit the hell out of the Falcons. We know they will make a lot more mistakes, mistakes we are fully able to capitalize on. And what's more. The longer the series goes, the longer the games go, the bigger the Fighting Saints physical advantage becomes.
 

FissionFire

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I apologize for the 11th hour nature of this post. It's been a very busy couple weeks for me. I'd like to explain why I feel that the Minnesota Fighting Saints are the better team in this series and why they will prevail.

Some will point to the chemistry and play of the Bentley/Bentley/Hextall line as a mismatch for the Saints defensively because of their speed and smarts. This is simply not true for several reasons. First off, the Fighting Saints feature one of the most physical and defensively intelligent top pairings in the draft in the "Joint Chiefs of Defense", Earl Seibert and Rod Langway. Seibert was not a slow skater by any means (his nickname was "The Flying Dutchman") and his tremendous shot blocking ability is a testament to how well he thought the game and anticipated the shooting lanes. Ultimate Hockey says of him "Seibert was a strong, fast skater, and intimidating force with his stick and body. He was also one of the better shot-blockers around...Earl owned excellent puck-handling skills and he was almost impossible to knock off his skates.". Joe Pelletier echos this by saying "Defensively, Seibert was one of the best shot-blockers in the game, and he could move the puck just as quickly as anyone.". Our very own pitseleh said of him that "Many suggest that he was better than Shore defensively". His parter, Rod Langway, was no cementhead himself. In a November 1, 2002 article on NHL.com, John McGourty says that "Langway is a tall, wide-bodied, hulking figure with great strength who built an encyclopedic knowledge of offensive opponents.". Later in the same article Langway reminisces about playing with Larry Robinson, Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe by saying "There was never a lecture but we talked hockey all the time, which I loved to do. Stuff like theories on how to play a guy.". Langway was also a college player before turning pro. His raw intelligence as well as his diligent study of the opposition will certainly not leave him at any disadvantage to the Bentley's in a battle of wits on the ice. This shows that the Bentley's certainly have no speed or smarts advantage on the defenseman they will spend the vast majority of the series facing. Up front, we'll match either one of the most skilled players in history in Beliveau, or one of the most innovative defensive forwards in Metz against them. Pairing with strong and smart two-way players line Gare, Howe, and Kallur they won't find an edge against their counterparts up front either.

Another reason the Bentley's will not be effective is the physical element the Fighting Saints bring to the table. Max Bentley was 5'10" 155lbs. while Doug was an even more slender 5'8" 145lbs. After playing an unbalanced 82 game schedule in the most physical division in the ATD plus two playoff rounds where they faced Clapper, Horton, and reknowned dirty tactician Messier it's improbable to think they won't be more than a little worn down coming into their most physical test to-date having to meet Seibert, Langway, Beliveau, and Metz. My quotes above illustrated the dominant physical presence Seibert provided. Langway was also a dominant physical player throughout his career. According to the Legendsofhockey.net Pinnacle article on the on him, as a rookie subbing for an injured Guy Lapointe in the Finals "Langway made a name for himself through his physical play, shutting down the Rangers' offence and manhandling New York star Phil Esposito". Beliveau outweighs the Bentley's by nearly 60lbs and Metz was renowned for his dogged shadow and checking abilities. Add all this in to the fact that the pivot who drives the Falcon's top line, Max Bentley, is a very fragile player and it seems impossible that the line will survive the series or even be a force by the end. According to his Legends bio, Max Bentley had a heart condition so severe that the doctor told hiim to "go home and forget about hockey" or he "wouldn't live a year". This likely would have forced him into retirement with modern training standards as it has players like Greg Johnson and Jiri Fischer so it's debatable whether or not he'd even be eligible to play in the series at all. We assume the older players have the modern advantages, so wouldn't they have modern disadvantages as well? Assuming he was cleared to play, he's still a player even Peter Forsberg would consider fragile. His Legends bio sums it up well by saying "Max always looked gaunt and pale, and throughout his career he was plagued by minor injuries, pains, aches, dry throat, burning eyes, upset stomach, ulcers, diabetes and kidney trouble. He was often called "a walking drug store" because of his pharmacological tendencies.". Max Bentley was also a prima-donna. When asked to report to the Hawks AHL affiliate in Kansas City as an 18yr old rookie, he "balked at reporting and decided to retire at 18 years of age". Only because of the intervention of childhood idol Johnny Gottselig did Max agree to report. The Bentley duo also didn't take off until they had a "policeman" in Bill Thoms added to their line, a role Hextall is ill-suited to perform.

With the Falcons top line held in check, the importance of the Olmstead/Cowley/Drillon line on offense increases for Detroit. This line may be the worst defensive line in the entire draft. Both Cowley and Drillon were known as much for their offense as they were for their complete lack of defensive play (my esteemed co-GM Nalyd Psycho can provide quotes to this effect if you don't believe me). If the Beliveau line matches up against them Detroit will be in big trouble. Even the Metz/Howe/Kallur line will be able to produce against them while providing an effective defensive presence as well. Like the Bentley's, this line is physically dominated by the Saints with Drillon weighing in at 6'2" 178lbs and Cowley a slight 5'10" 165lbs.

Another myth I'd like to dispel is the mismatch Bobby Holik would have against either of those lines. Holik excels at faceoffs and positional defense. He's also proven that he can matchup against elite, speedy forwards and shut them down. In the 1995 Stanley Cup Finals, Holik centered the "Crash Line" that matched up primarily against Sergei Fedorov and shut him down. The Fighting Saints have a different version of this line they will ice at times which will be Graves/Holik/Ezinicki so Holik will be in a position of comfort and past success. We won't encourage this matchup often, but if it does occur we won't be holding our breath in panic either.

Some may feel that Alexander Ragulin's mobility will be a big disadvantage. Against the Bentley's it could be, but we will rarely put them in position to get this matchup at home. Pat Burn's is an X's and O's guy who knows when to play them to protect the matchups. Instead, Ragulin will face the Cowley line. This is a place where he is in a position to succeed. Olmstead is an effective corner player, but Ragulin's strength and physicality is legendary in his home country. Drillon is a crease-camper and garbage-goal player but Ragulin was known as a crease-clearer. Can a sub-180lb Drillon really outmuscle a 225lb Ragulin? Joe Pelletier says of him "He was big and very strong, as well as very good at moving out opposing forwards from the slot. When Ragulin put that "bear hug" around a player there wasn't much anybody could do about it.". His partner in Ivanov has established chemistry with him and is a much more mobile and offensively-skilled player but was just as nasty physically. Both Ragulin and Ivanov were excellent outlet passer and transitional players according to Joe Pelletier so the Saints will be able to take pull advantage of the lax backcheking and defensive play Cowley and Drillon are famous for.

Pavel Bure will spend most of the series avoiding the Falcons top 6. He'll spend lots of time playing on a line with Errey and Sullivan. This line provides tons of speed and a game-breaking player in Bure to go with a strong cornerman and physical presence in Sullivan. They'll see most of their time against the McGee and Carbonneau lines. Carbonneau in particular is a matchup we'd relish as Bure has been able to produce great results against him in every playoff matchup in the past.

I hope this has helped show any doubters that the Minnesota Fighting Saints will prevail over the Detroit Falcons offensively, defensively, and physically. The longer you think the series will go, the greater the Saints advantage will be and the more likely for the Falcon's that their top line will be hurt or ineffective.
 
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Nalyd Psycho

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Both Cowley and Drillon were known as much for their offense as they were for their complete lack of defensive play (my esteemed co-GM Nalyd Psycho can provide quotes to this effect if you don't believe me).

My favourite line about Bill Cowley comes from his coach. Say that he preferred Apps to Cowley because "a little better backchecker". Not that that means a lot on it's own, but, in context, this is after Cowley became the first player to ever have more assists than anyone else has points. If his defense shortcomings closed that much of a gap, well, you figure it out. (Source, Hockey Outsiders' Globe and Mail archive research.)

Another read between the lines quote, this time from Joe Pelletier, "Cowley never really got the notoriety such a fine player should have received. Despite his breathtaking play he was somewhat overlooked by playing for the Bruins at the time he did. In fact, on many nights Cowley was centering the second line as the famous Kraut Line of Milt Schmidt, Bobby Bauer and Woody Dumart remained Boston's key to success for much of Cowley's tenure." Now, we all know that the Kraut line was an amazing checking line. So, can we guess why they were so much more important than Cowley and Roy Conacher?

It's also worth noting that Cowley's career was cut short by injuries. Another frail Falcons forward...

As for Drillon.

Well, we all know the story, Toronto was down 3-0 in the final against Detroit. Coach Hap Day benches Drillon and replaces him with grinder Don Metz. Toronto wins it 4-3, becoming the first and subsiquently only one of two teams to pull off the feat.

In the 1937-38 season, from Hockey Outsiders Globe and Mail archive research: "The biggest story was the tie between Cecil Dillon and Gordie Drillon, who were tied in voting for the RW position. They were each awarded a tied berth on the first and second team. The newspaper notes that Dillon's "greater backchecking ability" probably forced the tie, considering Drillon's edge in scoring. Given that Drillon led the league in goals and points, and outscored Dillon by 33%, Dillon must have been an amazing defensive player (or Drillon a very poor one)."
"Interesting observation: under modern tie-breaking rules, Dillon would have been the first-team all-star and Drillon would have been the second-team all-star, because, while tied in point, Dillon has more first-place votes. However, under 1937-38 rules, it was a tie."

Ultimate Hockey rated him the worst defensive forward of the 1940s.

From his Legends of Hockey bio:
"Drillon's style of hockey was to park himself in front of the net and tip shots and swat at rebounds, and not worry about back-checking."
And considering LoH's reputation for blowing rainbow's up players rear end in their bios, that's scathing.
 

FissionFire

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Not having anyone to debate this series with has really been a downer. I feel like I'm forced to argue my team against some unknown standard without being able to refute any actual analysis of his strengths/our weaknesses.

How do you debate against voters unspoken perceptions? How do poke holes in the opponents strategy? What perceived weakness should I be disproving?

Blah. I want GBC/raleh back.
 

vancityluongo

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Where is EB? I remember you said something about him being away for family reasons or something FF. Did he specify exactly how long he'd be away?
 

shawnmullin

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Nothing you can do about that really. Real life is the priority.

But I think we're all smart enough to ignore that and evaluate the rosters on our own.
 

God Bless Canada

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Keep in mind that in the 40s, there were very, very few bad defensive forwards. Being named the worst defensive forward from the 40s is far different from being named the worst defensive forward from the 80s or 90s. Very few one-dimensional players in the 40s. Most of the one-dimensional guys didn't keep their job.

And while you constantly harp on Drillon's playoff performance in his second-to-last season, also keep in mind he was a very productive player in the post-season (41 points in 50 games is very impressive for his time) who led the post-season in goals twice.

I wouldn't blame Cowley's coach for saying he'd rather have Apps, regardless of the scoring gap. Cowley might have had the better season in 1941, but Apps was generally the better player throughout their respective careers. Apps was over a point-per-game from 36 to 42 - an incredible number when you consider how tough it was to put up those kind of numbers. Even with the big year in 41, Cowley's clip wasn't as good as Apps.

And in case you haven't realized it (and I don't think you have) the Krauts were a lot more than just an amazing checking line. Of course Cowley is going to get overshadowed when he's playing behind one of the top 30 players of all-time. (Milt Schmidt).

I think there is a speed and smarts for the Bentley's against just about any pairing, unless they're playing against someone like Orr, Shore, Harvey or Kelly. Max Bentley put up 46 points in 51 post-season games going up against guys like Bouchard and Stewart. They might not be as good as Seibert, but they're damn close.

I'd probably keep Bure where he was previously. You might take him out of the series completely, and that will leave you with one scoring line against Carbonneau. Put him with Holik, and he has to do all the work himself. Put him with Sullivan, and you really weaken your fourth line. And Pavel wouldn't be happy with the fourth line.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Keep in mind that in the 40s, there were very, very few bad defensive forwards. Being named the worst defensive forward from the 40s is far different from being named the worst defensive forward from the 80s or 90s. Very few one-dimensional players in the 40s. Most of the one-dimensional guys didn't keep their job.

I'd actually like some proof of that. When players like Drillon get basically run off their team when they are still perennial goal scoring leader threats sticks of terrible defense.

Your statement is true of 50's and 60-67 players, even the worst defensive players (I dunno, Bronco Horvath maybe?) were still decent defensively. But in the 40's, had that level of depth been re-established yet? Especially for a guy like Drillon, remember, he left for the war and then opted not to return to the NHL. So he never played in post-war NHL. And I really see no evidence to suggest that pre-war NHL was nearly as demanding defensively on forwards as O6 era was. And Cowley was done by 1947, so, again, the O6 era, and more importantly the post-war depth recovery, was simply not in full swing when he retired.

Add to that, I have to surmise that it was the massive success of the defensive Maple Leafs (Who used Nick Metz as a 1st liner.) that drove other franchises to hold their entire team and not just the defensemen to high defensive standards. And the Maple Leaf's dynasty was just beginning in 1947.

Thus, I do not believe that one can believe that the defensive play of early to mid 40's forwards was equal to the defensive play of early to mid 60's forwards. If anything, due to depth issues, that may be one of the worst eras for demands placed on forwards outside of the 80's. I highly doubt they were as stringent as the dead puck era, let alone the O6 era.
 

FissionFire

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Keep in mind that in the 40s, there were very, very few bad defensive forwards. Being named the worst defensive forward from the 40s is far different from being named the worst defensive forward from the 80s or 90s. Very few one-dimensional players in the 40s. Most of the one-dimensional guys didn't keep their job.

And while you constantly harp on Drillon's playoff performance in his second-to-last season, also keep in mind he was a very productive player in the post-season (41 points in 50 games is very impressive for his time) who led the post-season in goals twice.

Yes, he can score. Nobody is arguing that. Our point is that he can't defend. It's not often that getting benched in favor of Don Metz looks good on a players resume, especially when the entire reason for the move was the poor defensive effort put forth by Drillon. Even the generally rosy Legends bio says "Drillon's style of hockey was to park himself in front of the net and tip shots and swat at rebounds, and not worry about back-checking.". That doesn't sound alot like a player who would even be considered adequate on defense in any era. He sounds alot more like a bigger, slower version of Pavel Bure only without the game-breaking ability. I have no doubts that a skilled and responsible two-way player like Danny Gare will be able to check him on defense (especially when the 225lb Ragulin is patrolling the crease and slot, his preferred area). Then you look at Cowley vs. Beliveau and I have no idea how you think Cowley plans on defending against him. Beliveau may average 5 points a game at home against that line because of their complete lack of any defensive abilities. Even the Metz/Howe/Kallur line will produce offensively against that unit. Even a Graves/Holik/Ezinicki line will produce against that unit. That line is easily the worst defensive line left in the playoffs and probably the worst defensive line in the entire draft.

I think there is a speed and smarts for the Bentley's against just about any pairing, unless they're playing against someone like Orr, Shore, Harvey or Kelly. Max Bentley put up 46 points in 51 post-season games going up against guys like Bouchard and Stewart. They might not be as good as Seibert, but they're damn close.

Max Bentley never had to face Eddie Shore (before his time) or Earl Seibert (teammates) and while Stewart and Bouchard were good players, I don't think either one is really as close to Seibert as you claim. Let's keep in mind that he's 1 of only 5 players in history to be named to the 1st or 2nd All-Star team 10 consecutive seasons (Gordie Howe, Maurice Richard, Bobby Hull, and Doug Harvey were the others). As my evidence in my previous post illustrates, Seibert was more than just a physical player. He was one of the fastest blueliners of his time and was regarded by some as the superior defensive player when compared to Eddie Shore - a guy you say the Bentley's wouldn't have the smarts advantage on. They'll have speed sure, but this isn't Martin St. Louis versus Derien Hatcher here. It not a gaping mismatch, especially when you consider Seibert's huge reach. This guy was his eras version of Chris Pronger, providing offense and punishing defense, only without the brainfarts that lead to suspensions and bad penalties. He also has plenty of experience handling small, fast, elite forwards. Recall that it was Earl Seibert who accidentally killed Howie Morenz and even you can't say that the Bentley's are faster or smarter than he was. If Seibert, on a clean play, could do that to arguably one of the top 10 players ever I shudder to think what he could do to chronically injured and fragile Max Bentley. Do you really think that man is going to survive and play at 100% after 82 games in the brutally physical Foster Hewitt and 2 playoff rounds, the last of which he went head-to-head with one of the dirtiest players ever in Mark Messier? This is the ATD, not fantasyland so let's be realistic. It would be a miracle if Max survived a long series and it's probably 50/50 that he even makes it to Game 5 in one piece after dealing with the Seibert/Langway/Beliveau/Metz combo for 4 games. I'd really like to hear what imaginable reason you have that would lead you to believe the Bentley's will play the entire series at 100%, or even all the games period. There's no way a 225lb Seibert and a 218lb Langway won't wear down the fragile Bentley's (combined weight 300lbs) in a series. They may be fast, but they aren't going to score on anyone shooting from the perimeter. Eventually they'll need to drive the net to get quality shots and when they do they will be hammered hard. That's how Seibert and Langway played their entire career against players far better than Max Bentley (Morenz and Gretzky for example) and that's precisely what Brittle Bentley will be in store for.

I'd probably keep Bure where he was previously. You might take him out of the series completely, and that will leave you with one scoring line against Carbonneau. Put him with Holik, and he has to do all the work himself. Put him with Sullivan, and you really weaken your fourth line. And Pavel wouldn't be happy with the fourth line.

Actually Bure will never touch the 4th line. Really he'll be a 3rd liner with our modified checking line featuring more mobility (and offense) playing more of a 2nd line role. Burns will often employ these:

Martin - Beliveau - Gare
Metz/Howe - Metz/Howe - Kallur (both Metz and Howe can play C or LW and might switch up to give the Bentley's different looks)
Errey - Sullivan - Bure (essentially a speed line with Sullivan doing the dirt work in the corners)
Graves - Holik - Ezinicki (similar to the "Crash" line which Holik centered in the 1995 Finals where he shut down a previously dominant Sergei Fedorov)

as well as our normal lines:

Martin - Beliveau - Gare
Metz - Howe - Kallur
Graves - Holik - Bure
Errey - Sullivan - Ezinicki

Holik's shutdown elite speed/skill forwards in the past who were of similar or better abilities than Bill Cowley. I feel he's perfectly capable of doing so again. Plus, the Cowley line is such much worse defensively than anything Holik has ever faced in the past that either the Graves/Holik/Bure (most often) or Graves/Holik/Ezinicki (less often) lines should both produce at least as many goals, if not more, than their checks. Keep in mind also that Detroit doesn't have a single forward on the roster outside of Doug Bentley capable of skating with Bure to defend him, and those two players will never be on the ice together barring something catastrophic like an icing.

Pat Burn's is an X's and O's guy through and through and he won't be afraid to shake things up a bit if a matchup isn't working. He won't take several games to figure it out either, more likely making the adjustments during the same game. Neilson is an innovative guy, but has always been a very weak strategist so when it comes to in-game adjustments I think the Saints have a big advantage and in the playoffs in-game adjustments are usually the most important.

One other small roster adjustment we forgot to announce is that since he won't need to be spending lots of 5 on 5 time defending some of Pavel Bure's cherrypicking, Syd Howe will replace Bobby Holik on the PP#2 and PK#1.
 

God Bless Canada

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Max Bentley was injury-prone? Last I checked, he missed nine games in his seven-year peak. And he didn't miss a playoff game. He played a very aggressive, fearless game in the offensive zone. In maybe the roughest and toughest period in the history of the sport. The end result? Nine missed regular season games during his seven-year peak. If he was as injury-prone as Legends of Hockey makes it sound, then he might be the most resilient player in NHL history. Nine missed games.

There is not much of a difference from Stewart and Seibert. Stewart was an absolutely incredible defensive defenceman. I think there's very little to choose between Stewart and Scott Stevens. Except Stewart was a little more willing to use his stick and play dirty. Stewart and Bouchard are probably two of the top 10-15 defensive defencemen of all-time, and when it comes to the great defensive defencemen, there isn't much to choose between them. Bentley was more than able to put up points against Bouchard and Stewart.

In the Bentley's, you're looking at two of the top seven offensive players ever at their respective positions. They are that good. They are potent game-breakers who can shred a defence, any defence.

Nalyd, I think the players in the 30s/very early 40s were every bit as good defensively as the post-war counterparts. You had to play a strong defensive game if you were going to keep a job. (You mentioned Horvath. Horvath was the only player to have his rights owned by every O6 team).

For all the criticism about Drillon, bottom line is two straight seven-goal playoffs. For the time in which he played, that's incredible.

You won't get much from Cowley or Drillon defensively. But one thing that will make life tough (and it hasn't been mentioned yet) is early era power forward Bert Olmstead. A double-tough SOB who won five Cups.

The Morenz-Seibert comment might be the most tasteless in this draft thus far.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Nalyd, I think the players in the 30s/very early 40s were every bit as good defensively as the post-war counterparts. You had to play a strong defensive game if you were going to keep a job. (You mentioned Horvath. Horvath was the only player to have his rights owned by every O6 team).

Prove it. The late 30's early 40's is filled with players like Drillon, Cowley, Tom Anderson, Flash Hollett etc who have no reputation of good defense but put up strong numbers then failed to last in the post war NHL. All evidence points to coaches becoming more defensively demanding in the late 40's and that the reigns were loosened when the war and depression was depleting talent pools.

You won't get much from Cowley or Drillon defensively. But one thing that will make life tough (and it hasn't been mentioned yet) is early era power forward Bert Olmstead. A double-tough SOB who won five Cups.

As good as Olmstead is, he's a complimentary player not a line leader. And I just don't think he has the speed to cover defensively. He'll make the corners and crease a war zone, but, Ragulin is a master of that domain as well.
 

FissionFire

Registered User
Dec 22, 2006
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Las Vegas, NV
www.redwingscentral.com
Max Bentley was injury-prone? Last I checked, he missed nine games in his seven-year peak. And he didn't miss a playoff game. He played a very aggressive, fearless game in the offensive zone. In maybe the roughest and toughest period in the history of the sport. The end result? Nine missed regular season games during his seven-year peak. If he was as injury-prone as Legends of Hockey makes it sound, then he might be the most resilient player in NHL history. Nine missed games.

It's a darn shame then that the ATD takes more than just a players peak into account or this statement might be more relevent. You read the quotes, I highly doubt a player at the time gets that type of reputation and nickname for no reason at all. Unless, of course, you are claiming that the thoughts of his contemporaries are less relevent than your analysis of his career (or rather only his peak). If that's the case, then any analysis of a player by his contemporaries would be less relevent than our current analysis and is that really the claim you are trying to make?

There is not much of a difference from Stewart and Seibert. Stewart was an absolutely incredible defensive defenceman. I think there's very little to choose between Stewart and Scott Stevens. Except Stewart was a little more willing to use his stick and play dirty. Stewart and Bouchard are probably two of the top 10-15 defensive defencemen of all-time, and when it comes to the great defensive defencemen, there isn't much to choose between them. Bentley was more than able to put up points against Bouchard and Stewart.

Let's follow the logic trail here. Seibert was considered by some during his era as the best defensive defenseman, better than Eddie Shore. You claim Seibert defensively is basically equal to Jack Stewart and Scott Stevens. Therefore Eddie Shore is equal defensively to Stewart and Stevens. Are you kidding? Again, I'll go out on a limb and say you never saw Stewart, Shore, or Seibert (or the Bentley's) actually play to accurately determine their relative abilities with the "Eye Test" so we're forced to rely on contemporary opinions of these players. The ones I found claim Seibert was the equal or better player in the defensive zone to Eddie Shore. Do you have some sources claiming the same about Stewart, Bouchard, and/or Stevens? Or that they were at least the equal defensively to 10-time consecutive All-Star Earl Seibert? Without some contemporary evidence your statement that Stewart/Bouchard = Seibert/Shore is really nothing more than your forumlated opinion and, again, I respect your views but would much prefer something from an accepted source to corroborate it.

In the Bentley's, you're looking at two of the top seven offensive players ever at their respective positions. They are that good. They are potent game-breakers who can shred a defence, any defence.

Nalyd, I think the players in the 30s/very early 40s were every bit as good defensively as the post-war counterparts. You had to play a strong defensive game if you were going to keep a job. (You mentioned Horvath. Horvath was the only player to have his rights owned by every O6 team).

For all the criticism about Drillon, bottom line is two straight seven-goal playoffs. For the time in which he played, that's incredible.

When Drillon met Seibert in the 1938 Stanley Cup Finals, Earl's Blackhawks held the Leafs to only 1 goal in 3 of the 4 games on route to a 3-1 series victory. Drillon was a non-factor that series. That was one of his 7 goal playoff seasons that you pimped up. Drillon scored most of his goals in a 3 game sweep of Boston.

The Morenz-Seibert comment might be the most tasteless in this draft thus far.

Sorry if that upsets you, but even Seibert is on record as saying he killed the guy. It wasn't something he was proud of but it is proof that he could defensively keep up with small, speedy forwards and not get turned into a pylon by them as you seem to hint the Bentley's would do. Earl will skate with them, catch them, and punish them just like he did to every other player he ever faced. The Bentley's will score some, but they won't dominate and they won't skate around freely without paying the price physically and they will wear down.
 

chaosrevolver

Snubbed Again
Nov 24, 2006
16,876
1,072
Ontario
Full Of Controversy and Crime...Saints Take Game 1.

Pre-Game Warmup:
LETS GO FALCONS, SAINTS SUCK! LETS GO FALCONS, SAINTS SUCK! The Detroit crowd was rocking as the Falcons and Fighting Saints took to the ice for pre game warmup. The Falcons were welcomed with a standing ovation and a large amount of cheers. And besides the small crowd gathered near the Saints bench, Minnesota fans were hard to find. However, by the end of this matchup..that small little group would be the ones cheering and the large sea of red..would be no where to be found.

First Period:
The first period would start off fast and furious. Bill Ezinicki was getting a little more time than expected and made the most of it. Ezinicki had 4 hits on one shift including a thunderous bodycheck layed on Gordie Drillon. The Saints had the first momentum of the series and they didn't plan on giving it up. Jean Beliveau would skate over the line and wire a shot that would be stopped but not controlled. The puck would go straight onto Danny Gare's stick and its 1-0. But Detroit would turn that momentum right around as Earl Seibert would get a little too carried away on a hold. Doug Bentley would then set up Max Bentley to tie it up at 1 with just 7:04 remaining in the period. With Detroit having the momentum in their favour, Doug Bentley would go over the Minnesota blue line and fire a shot that would just scrape the post to keep the score at 1-1 heading into the second period. Minnesota fired 8 shots on Frank Brimsek, while Detroit took 7 shots at Holmes.

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Max Bentley would tie the score at 1-1 with about 7 minutes remaining in the first.


Second Period:
"LET'S GO LET'S GO. DO THIS FOR YOUR FANS!!!!!!!! THE FANS THAT SPEND THEIR PAYCHECKS TO COME WATCH YOU PLAY EVERY DAMN GAME!!!! THOSE VERY SAME FANS WHO CHEER FOR YOU AND GO THROUGH THE ROLLERCOASTER JUST LIKE YOU DO!!!!! THE VERY SAME FANS WHO ARE AS MUCH APART OF THIS TEAM AS YOU ARE!!!!! WIN ONE FOR THEM!

That motivational speech by Roger Neilson might have just been what they needed as the Detroit Falcons would come flying out of the gates in the second period by scoring 2 goals early. One by defenseman, Red Kelly. The other goal was scored by Doug Bentley on an impressive deke that left the crowd jumping up and down and the kids running around in their underwear. It was truly a site to see. Holmes layed face first against the ice after the third goal screaming at himself for falling for the illustrious move. It was a period dominated by Detroit. In shots, goals, hits...everything was dominated by Detroit. The Falcons outshot the Saints 11-2, outscored them 2-0, and out hit them 22-4. It was a great period for the Falcons and a turning point heading down the stretch in game 1. 3-1 Falcons after two periods.


RED_KELLY_DETROIT_COLOR_PHOTO.bmp

Red Kelly as the go-ahead goal going into the third period.


Third Period:
"Take some action. No need to panic men. This game is far from over, and im not sure that the other dressing room realizes that. Let's take it to them!"

With those words by Pat Burns, the Fighting Saints knew what they had to do. That plan of action was fight back. Right off the bat the Saints would score as Jean Beliveau would fake the shot and skate around George Boucher and would proceed to wire a wristshot top shelf. The Fighting Saints just kept battling and battling and would get a glorious opportunity when Pavel Bure would be tripped up on a breakaway meaning only one thing..a penalty shot. Bure would skate in all alone on Brimsek. Fake left, go back to the right, pulls it on the forehand, the shot, the................SAVE! Frank Brimsek would stack the pads on a Dominik Hasek like move to save the Falcons lead. However, the Saints just kept coming and coming. And at the 16:07 mark of the third period, they would tie it up. Syd Howe would spring Pavel Bure in alone for his second breakaway of the game. And this time, there was no need for a penalty shot. This time, there was a goal. 3-3 Tie. It would stay 3-3 for the rest of the 3:53 remaining, and that meant only one thing...Overtime.


PavelBure-close-up.JPG

Pavel Bure would tie the game up with less than 4 minutes remaining in the game.


Overtime:
This overtime would be no regular overtime. It would have controversy and crime. It would have a goal by a player who most think, is the best player in the series. And it would have a player taking a trip to the hospital, and another taking a trip to court.

Right off the bat, the Falcons wanted to end this quick. Max Bentley and Brian Hextall would skate in on a 2-on-1. But would be denied by Holmes, who at this point had made 36 saves. And then...Cowley skates over the Minnesota line. Cowley fakes out Langway. COWLEY!!! OH NO!!! Bill Ezinicki would rob him of a goal. And would rob him of a chance to finish the series. Ezinicki would hit Cowley straight from behind, kncoking Cowley's throat right up against the crossbar. This cowardous act would not please the Falcons bench as all the players would storm their bench and go straight after Ezinicki. This would cause an obvious reaction from the Saints bench as there would be nothing left on that bench either. The Falcons crowd was throwing beer, popcorn, hotdogs and other other junk at Ezinicki. When this maul was done. Ezinicki got what he deserved. Bill Goldsworthy and Mike Grant would tear Ezinicki apart as "Ezi" was just covering up. However, this fight-filled overtime had to end. And would just 1 minute and 34 seconds after the mess was cleared up. Jean Beliveau would steal the puck from Red Kelly, skate in alone, and go five-hole on the Falcons goaltender, Frank Brimsek to win the game for Minnesota.


Bill%20Cowley.jpg

Bill Cowley would be taken off on a stretcher thanks to Bill Ezinicki. No word on his condition.



Minnesota Fighting Saints lead series 1-0.
 

chaosrevolver

Snubbed Again
Nov 24, 2006
16,876
1,072
Ontario
Cowley, Ezinicki Out for Series

Today, Bill Cowley was told by the doctor that because of the neck injury he suffered at the hands of Bill Ezinicki, he will be unable to play for the rest of the series. However, if the Falcons do move on to the next round, Cowley will be fit to play.

As for Ezinicki, he has been suspended for the remainder of the series. Whether it is 4 games or 7 games. His sentence will last as long as the series.
 

chaosrevolver

Snubbed Again
Nov 24, 2006
16,876
1,072
Ontario
Cough..Cough...2-0.

In a strongly played game by the Minnesota Fighting Saints, Minny would make it a 2-0 series score. Jean Beliveau would score 3 times and add 2 assists while linemate Danny Gare would score twice as the Minnesota Fighting Saints would go on to win 6-5 over the Detroit Falcons. It was clear right away that the loss of Cowley messed the minds up of the Falcons players. Such an important player gone for the series. But they eventually started to pick their game up and would make it close in the end. Red Kelly had 4 assists, Doug Bentley and Max Bentley would each score twice for the Falcons. Holmes faced 34 shots in the win while Brimsek faced a ton with 48.



Minnesota Fighting Saints lead series 2-0.
 

chaosrevolver

Snubbed Again
Nov 24, 2006
16,876
1,072
Ontario
Oh Jeepers Me...3-0.

Frank Brimsek was the star of the show tonight, but the Minnesota Fighting Saints would still prevail 2-1. Beliveau would have a goal and an assist while Kelly would score the only goal for the Falcons. Brimsek faced 52 shots and made 50 saves. Holmes faced 20 shots in the win. This game went into an overtime classic. It lasted 34 minutes and 18 seconds long before Earl Seibert would score the gamewinner off of what looked to be a screened point shot. With the score 3-0 in the series, the Falcons are in deep..deep trouble.


Minnesota Fighting Saints lead series 3-0.
 

chaosrevolver

Snubbed Again
Nov 24, 2006
16,876
1,072
Ontario
Bring Back Teriyaki

The Detroit Falcons would come out and play a very solid game against the Minnesota Fighting Saints. They would get the win too. Red Kelly had a goal and 3 assists in a 4-3 OT win over the Saints. Max Bentley scored the gamewinner with just .32 seconds remaining in the OT period. Beliveau would have a goal and 2 assists while Pavel Bure scored 3 times for Minnesota. Holmes would make 26 saves in the loss while Brimsek made 30 in the win. Now with the score 3-1, Detroit has a win under their belt...but now they need to have 3 more to go along with that.



Minnesota Fighting Saints lead series 3-1.
 

chaosrevolver

Snubbed Again
Nov 24, 2006
16,876
1,072
Ontario
Knocking on Heavens Door.

With .56 seconds remaining in the first overtime period, Doug Bentley down the side boards wires the puck..WHAT A SAVE!!! BUT OH NO!! THE REBOUND!!! HEXTALL SCORES!!! THE DETROIT FALCONS ARE KNOCKING ON HEAVENS DOORRR!!!!! Those were the sounds that echoed your living rooms across the world. What a goal to cut the lead in the series to 3-2. Brian Hextall Sr. would score twice in a 2-1 win over the Fighting Saints from Minnesota. The only goal for Minnesota was scored by Pavel Bure. Holmes would face 18 shots while Brimsek faced 33. The score 3-2, the Falcons are knocking on the Saints door.



Minnesota Fighting Saints lead series 3-2.
 

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