ATD #9 Division and Roster Discussion Thread

Nalyd Psycho

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Gotta talk about Holmes and Allaire.

1. Don't take me out of context. I was just saying what style Holmes would play. I was not saying Allaire would successfully change his style in one year.

2. What is the logical conclusion of Holmes playing in a 1920's style? Simple. That every older player is severely handicapped. If 20's players have to play the way they played in their day, playmaking becomes a real problem. The way I see it, every player has a full childhood of using modern technology and modern styles. A level playing field.

3. Goalies are graded on how they did against their peers. (Holmes was quite clearly the 2nd best goalie of his era and probably the most money goalie of his era.) Style plays a limited role in judging goalies because we have to assume that they are familiar with modern technique and equipment otherwise almost every team is handicapped against the few that have modern starters. Goaltending has just changed too much.

4. So what does Allaire offer? I don't think Holmes is the 32nd best goalie. I think he's somewhere between 20-30. Longevity, consistency and clutch. He's good, really good, should of been a starter in the 28 team drafts. That said, he's still in the bottom half of goalies. That's where Allaire comes in. We've got a goalie with an elite goaltending mentality in Holmes, but not necessarily elite skills. So how do we compensate for that? Simple, we do everything we can to ensure he has elite technique. Allaire is the best there is for teaching goaltending technique. With Allaire and Holmes together, we have a goaltender with elite mentality and elite technique. With Allaire and Liut, we have a goaltender with elite skills and elite technique. With Allaire behind the bench, our goaltending goes from a weakness to a neutrality. He raises our goaltenders games and gives us an added edge that very few people can add that late in the draft. He takes the skill we have and cranks it up one more notch.




As for the Potvin 2 all-star team births lie. Mae Culpa. Sunday night is drinks with the guys night, I wrote that after they'd all left and I was still quite tipsy. In my hasty research I interpreted two-time all-star as meaning all-star team, when in fact, it was all-star game. My mistake, I apologize.
 

Pwnasaurus

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We've got a goalie with an elite goaltending mentality in Holmes, but not necessarily elite skills. So how do we compensate for that? Simple, we do everything we can to ensure he has elite technique. Allaire is the best there is for teaching goaltending technique. With Allaire and Holmes together, we have a goaltender with elite mentality and elite technique.

But again, I just don't see how Allaire having redefined the butterfly, can transform Holmes into a guy with elite level skills in one season. I think the idea was a good one, but I didn't like the execution. I think a coach who can work with hybrid styles would have been a better fit personally.
 
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Roger's Pancreas*

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Unlike the CFL's Stampeders, this team is loaded with grit, toughness and heart. And unlike the CFL's Stampeders, offence will be a problem for the ATD Stamps.

*Quick refresher: who's your coach.
The offense will be a problem, but I think the group assembled won't let me down. They play tough. They're willing to make sacrifices. And when you have a big shot from the point like we do with MacInnis, those are going to be the players willing to pay the price in front of the net to capitalize on the chances.

I think they'll get their goals. They won't be pretty. There won't be a lot of them. But they'll get their goals; not even the best goalie in the world can stop them. Roy, Broduer, Hasek, whatever, when your players are standing two or three feet in front of the net every single night, the name on the back of the jersey doesn't matter.

In regards to coaching, MSE was responsible for this pick. Without him, I would never have known who Billy Reay was. Needless to say, I'm pleased with the coach selected.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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But again, I just don't see how Allaire having redefined the butterfly, can transform Holmes into a guy with elite level skills in one season. I think the idea was a good one, but I didn't like the execution. I think a coach who can work with hybrid styles would have been a better fit personally.

But why is he constrained to one season? Holmes has a life time of working with modern styles otherwise all non-modern players are hugely disadvantaged.
 

Pwnasaurus

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But why is he constrained to one season?

I was referring to the time allotted with said coach. The basis of the time line for each individual ATD is one season to my understanding.

Is the converse true? Is it assumed that Patrick Roy has had a lifetime of playing a stand up style so a coach who was well versed in net minding in the 1930's would also have a positive effect on him as well?

ie) Any goalie + any successful goaltending coach = significant upgrade in goal in this format?
 
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Frightened Inmate #2

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Kingston


Sid Smith - Mario Lemieux (C) - Bobby Bauer
John Leclair - Steve Yzerman (A) - Ace Bailey
George Hay - Harry Westwick - Tony Leswick
Venjamin Alexandrov - Alexander Almetov - Konstantin Loktev
Jozef Golonka - Dick Irvin

Ken Reardon - Doug Wilson
Larry Murphy - Jim Neilson
Vasili Pervukhin - Zinetula Bilyaletdinov

Grant Fuhr
Mike Vernon

- My initial take is that way to much was given up to get Steve Yzerman, who is a great player, no doubt about that, but I really don't see a huge amount that separates him from someone like Sakic, at least not enough to justify giving anything substantial up.
- Past the 1-2 punch up the middle, I see a team that has a huge number of holes in it, the wings are average at best and well the defence consists of 4 solid players and well a third pairing that is made up of Soviet question marks.... the way I look at the Soviet teams is there is no doubt that they have the higher end talent, but depth has never been the Russian's strong point, to this day that issue exists.... and that is only magnified on the backend.
- Lemieux and Tikhonov?
- Good clutch goaltending that could work out well if the team makes the playoffs, but right now I see a team that stands a good chance of being a fat kid on prom night and missing the dance.
 

Frightened Inmate #2

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Yeah, I was wondering about that as well, especially considering how absolutely useless an assistant coach is in this format in my opinion... a head coach is sufficient. There are a couple of Czechoslovakian defensmen who are in the IIHF Hall of Fame that I would select before the two Soviets...
 

VanIslander

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Westwick was a rover, which for most ATDs has been accepted as a legit defenseman substitute, so there he can go.

Irvin won the inaugural WCHL championship with fellow HHOFer George Hay as his wing (they actually won in another league together before that too) so Hay slips onto that line seamlessly, with Howe and Richard stopper Leswick on the other wing.

Sid Smith - Mario Lemieux (C) - Bobby Bauer
John Leclair - Steve Yzerman (A) - Ace Bailey
George Hay - Dick Irvin, Sr. (A) - Tony Leswick
Ven Alexandrov - Alex Almetov - Konstantin Loktev
Jozef Golonka

Ken Reardon - Doug Wilson
Larry Murphy - Jim Neilson
Vas Pervukhin - Zin Bilyaletdinov
Harry Westwick

Grant Fuhr
Mike Vernon
 

VanIslander

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So I'm thinking FI#2 had very little to do with this team? lol he sure doesn't seem big on his own guys anywya.
FI#2 said Mario falling in the draft was too goo to pass up (don't trade), so that defined the team, he chose Fuhr which makes sense given Mario, and though he was AWOL for several rounds when the top-3 d-men and four top wingers were being chosen, he did respond to an email about later round options. I know he was busy and hence could at most be a co-g.m. this draft. I knew I'd be busy the first week of may, goikng to Thailand and moving to a new apartment (am still int he process). So teaming up was a quick fix for our situations. FI#2 went with the Slovak centre late in the draft, and didn't reply to the PMs about drafting Russians, so I had no idea he thought some undrafted Czechs were better than one of the greatest Soviet lines of all time. I would have gladly nixed the idea and had a killer MLD top line. BUt we are both busy and made the best of this.

It is what it is.
 

God Bless Canada

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But why is he constrained to one season? Holmes has a life time of working with modern styles otherwise all non-modern players are hugely disadvantaged.
I think you overrate style. Goaltending is a very mental position. Outside of a football quarterback, a baseball catcher, and maybe a baseball pitcher, it's maybe the most mentally demanding position in team sports. Technique is overrated. It's all about stopping the puck. Period. And for your team, with the brick wall approach, that mental approach, the ability to come up with the big save after five minutes of inactivity, will be even more important.

I don't think anyone will take exception with the stand-up style of Dryden or Parent.
 

reckoning

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Of more immediate concern is the lack of a 7th defenseman. Any injury to them would be a disaster

Ever since the disaster of the Sabres in the 2006 ECF, I've believed that a solid 7th defenceman is a necessity. It's like fire insurance, you hope you don't have to use it, but you'll be glad when you do.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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I was referring to the time allotted with said coach. The basis of the time line for each individual ATD is one season to my understanding.

Is the converse true? Is it assumed that Patrick Roy has had a lifetime of playing a stand up style so a coach who was well versed in net minding in the 1930's would also have a positive effect on him as well?

ie) Any goalie + any successful goaltending coach = significant upgrade in goal in this format?

My point is that if we constrain goalies to the style they played when they played we are placing an unfair handicapp on older goalies. Do we really expect Benedict to drop to his knees in prayer to stop a shot? Gretzky would have a 10 goal game against that.

We have to assume a level playing field. heck, if there were goalie coaches in the 30's, I would assume they'd update what they teach with the times.

I wouldn't say significant upgrade, but I would say:
Goalie + Successful goalie coach = Improved goalie.

I think you overrate style. Goaltending is a very mental position. Outside of a football quarterback, a baseball catcher, and maybe a baseball pitcher, it's maybe the most mentally demanding position in team sports. Technique is overrated. It's all about stopping the puck. Period. And for your team, with the brick wall approach, that mental approach, the ability to come up with the big save after five minutes of inactivity, will be even more important.

I don't think anyone will take exception with the stand-up style of Dryden or Parent.
That's my point, Holmes is mentally an excellent goalie. By adding a goalie coach, we improve the technical side of his game, thus making him a bit better. I'm not saying:
Holmes + Allaire = Patrick Roy.
I'm saying:
Holmes + Allaire > Holmes - Allaire.

In Conclussion: I personally don't put much weight into style. My theory was that Holmes was not the best goalie available. Allaire probably is the best goalie coach at strengthening technique. Therefore, adding Allaire elevates some of the negatives of having a goalie that ranks in the 2nd half of goalies in the tournament. I was asked a question about technique, and, knowing that discussing the technical style of a goalie from the 10's and 20's is a losing battle, I did the best to answer it. I never had any intention of making goaltending style a major topic of discussion, I simply try to answer any and all questions placed about my team. And I do not think that trait should be held against the Minnesota Fighting Saints.
 
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pitseleh

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My point is that if we constrain goalies to the style they played when they played we are placing an unfair handicapp on older goalies. Do we really expect Benedict to drop to his knees in prayer to stop a shot? Gretzky would have a 10 goal game against that.

We have to assume a level playing field. heck, if there were goalie coaches in the 30's, I would assume they'd update what they teach with the times.

Yep, I agree. Otherwise you get into a bit of a slippery slope of arguments in all positions. Would Sprague Cleghorn inevitably get suspended for the season every draft because there is no way the stuff he pulled would pass in today's game? Would Bill Durnan's ambidextrous style confer an advantage in today's game? Or would Boom Boom Geoffrion as effective in a league where most players have a slapshot? etc.
 

Sturminator

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Strangely, I agree with points made by both sides on this goaltending argument. Not assuming a level playing field vis-a-vis goalies (and skaters) from different eras is a recipe for chaos. Number of games played and level of competition are the only area where I somewhat downgrade older goalies; style doesn't factor into the equation for me.

On the other hand, although it's something of a tangent, I agree with GBC that successful goaltending is much more mental than physical. Goalies have succeeded with a wide variety of styles. The common theme among the truly great netminders is that they had short memories when scored upon and were unbreakable under pressure.

Given that I already assume Holmes' style is essentially irrelevant, I don't think adding a goalie coach changes anything. Maybe we'll see sports psychologists drafted in the near future? Maybe "Tiny" Thompson wants to be called "Biggie" instead?

We've seen our first trainer in this draft...
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Given that I already assume Holmes' style is essentially irrelevant, I don't think adding a goalie coach changes anything. Maybe we'll see sports psychologists drafted in the near future? Maybe "Tiny" Thompson wants to be called "Biggie" instead?

We've seen our first trainer in this draft...

Why not. We may be getting needlessly bogged down in minutiae, but, I always love creativity.
 

Transplanted Caper

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Well, my votes are in. I'm off to a cottage for the weekend and won't be online. Hope the Canadian GMs have a safe and fun long weekend. I look forward to the results early next week. Remember folks, failure to vote means you're suspended from the next draft as per the rule made at the beginning of the draft. I really am optimistic about where my team will wind up in the Bob Cole Division. My team should have excellent chemistry and is one of the best overall defensive squads in the draft making it an excellent team for Ken Hitchcock to be charged with. Some will doubt the offense, but there's enough offense IMO to get at least a goal or two a game, something that will be enough most nights for my squad.

For my fellow GMs who I voted on today. Job well done. Very difficult to rank many teams in all the divisions, and the team finishing at the bottom of a group of 4, and even 5 teams that are incredibly close in talent, could very well be at the top in someone else's rankings.
 
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