ATD#8 Milt Dunnell Cup Championship Final: Montreal Canadiens vs. Nanaimo Clippers

VanIslander

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All-Time Draft League Championship Final:



Red Fisher Conference Champion:

Montreal Canadiens

Coach: Al Arbour
Captain: Denis Potvin
Alternates: Jean Ratelle, Yvan Cournoyer

Charlie Simmer - Newsy Lalonde - Yvan Cournoyer
Vic Hadfield - Jean Ratelle - Hooley Smith
Don Marcotte - Doug Jarvis - Pit Martin
Marcel Bonin - Troy Murray - Eddie Shack
Pierre Turgeon

Denis Potvin - Harry Howell
Marcel Pronovost - Rob Ramage
Bill Hajt - Bill Barilko
Lloyd Cook

Turk Broda
Roger Crozier
Rollie Melanson



vs.



Jim Coleman Conference champion:

Nanaimo Clippers

Coach: Hap Day
Captain: Hap Day
Alternates: Bobby Orr, Lionel Hitchman

Sweeney Schriner - Joe Primeau - Charlie Conacher
Kevin Stevens - Frank Nighbor - Ed Litzenberger
Dean Prentice - Cooney Weiland - Bobby Rousseau
Hec Kilrea - Glen Skov - Eric Nesterenko
Camille Henry

Bobby Orr - Brad McCrimmon
Lionel Conacher - Hap Day
Gilles Marotte - Lionel Hitchman
Viktor Kuzkin

Clint Benedict
Tom Barrasso
Viktor Konovalenko



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VanIslander

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Montreal Canadiens

PP1: Simmer - Lalonde - Cournoyer - Potvin - P. Martin
PP2: Hadfield - Ratelle - H. Smith - Pronovost - Ramage

PK1: Marcotte - Jarvis - Potvin - Howell
PK2: Ratelle - T.Murray - Hajt - Barilko

vs.

Nanaimo Clippers

PP1: Schriner - Primeau - C. Conacher - Orr - Rousseau
PP2: K.Stevens - Nighbor - Litzenberger - L. Conacher - Day

PK1: Weiland - Rousseau - Conacher - McCrimmon
PK2: Skov - Nesterenko - Day - Hitchman
 

raleh

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Hey so would you two guys mind not competing in the next ATD to give the rest of us a chance at winning the thing? :D

Congrats both of you.
 

God Bless Canada

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I'll post more on this series later. After raleh and I lost in the division final, I had a hunch this would be the championship match-up. Both conference finals went exactly as I predicted them.

Should be an excellent final. Two things worth noting: these are our two past champions, and these two franchises met in the conference final of the last draft. Nanaimo won that one in seven, and pitseleh is the only GM to ever knock off HO. (I won't mention the only GM to ever beat pitseleh).

The last two draft finals have gone seven games. This one won't buck the trend.
 

vancityluongo

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I knew this would be the finals. Just had a gut feeling. It'll be close as hell though, and both teams have winning experience, which will make the series that much better.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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The biggest match-up is Potvin vs. Orr.

Personally, I think Denis will be beyond motivated to finally upstage #4.
 

pitseleh

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The biggest match-up is Potvin vs. Orr.

Personally, I think Denis will be beyond motivated to finally upstage #4.

I think you've been watching too much Canada Cup '76. :D

Anyways, I want to wish good luck to HO (not that you need it), looking forward to some good debate and a long, tough series. It should be fun.
 
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Hockey Outsider

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It's a big honour to make it this far. Congrats, Pitseleh, and good luck. I won't be here tomorrow but I'll definitely be around for discussions after that.

Here's a quick look at some real-life teammates involved in this matchup.

- Hap Day vs. Turk Broda
- Lionel Conacher vs. Hooley Smith
- Yvan Cournoyer vs. Bobby Rousseau
- Bobby Orr vs. Don Marcotte
- Marcel Pronovost vs. Glen Skov
- Jean Ratelle vs. Gilles Marotte
 

pitseleh

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We also have a bunch of returning players vying for multiple Milt Dunnell Cup Championships:

Bobby Rousseau (who going for his third straight)
Bill Hajt
Newsy Lalonde
Don Marcotte
Hooley Smith
Dean Prentice (I hadn't noticed until now that my third line is 2/3rd of your championship team's third line)

I won't be around much tomorrow either, so we'll officially begin discussions on Sunday. :)
 

Hockey Outsider

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Hap Day is also going for his second championship as a coach (and first as a player).

Bert Olmstead and Hap Holmes have both been to the final four in all three drafts but have yet to win the Milt Dunnel Cup.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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I think you've been watching too much Canada Cup '76. :D

Anyways, I want to wish good luck to HO (not that you need it), looking forward to some good debate and a long, tough series. It should be fun.

You can never watch too much Canada Cup '76. :yo:
 

shawnmullin

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Jul 20, 2005
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Is this Bobby Orr's first trip to the ATD final?

Love Orr vs. Potvin.

This would be so much fun to watch, but it's hard to say who I would actually expect to win.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Sorry for the delay, guys. I’ve been pretty busy with work and due to the holidays.

Personnel

The Canadiens have a big advantage in terms of strength down the middle. Primeau was a good playmaker for six years, but Lalonde was the best offensive player in NHA history and dominated the scoring race for the NHL’s first few seasons. He had some incredible playoff runs, and was a tough, physical player as well. Nighbor was an excellent, underrated player but I don’t think that his defensive play is enough to make up for Ratelle’s consistently excellent offense; Ratelle’s Pearson against Orr offsets Nighbor’s Hart. Weiland’s one huge scoring year occurred during the fluky 1929-30 with the offense-friendly rule changes; and while Weiland still had a great career, Jarvis’ outstanding defensive play, discipline, and PO experience makes his better suited as the third-line centre. Murray and Skov are equals, I’d say.

My team has faced some (justifiable) criticism for Simmer’s short peak. However, this applies to the Clippers as well. Litzenberger was only a top-end scorer for three years (1957-59) but never again broke topped 16 goals or 40 points. Additionally, Simmer and Stevens have very similar peaks, statistically, but Stevens was often injured and had the benefit of playing extensively with Lemieux during his best years and didn’t accomplish anything of note without him. Nanaimo clearly has the best winger in the series (Conacher), but I’d take Smith and Cournoyer as the next two.

I generally agree with VanIslander’s comments that goalies and coaches are a wash. Benedict and Broda were both among the best goalies of their era (Benedict has the regular season edge but they should be even in the PO). I doubt that either team will need to use their backup goalies, but Conn Smythe-winner Crozier gets the edge over Barrasso (who is often rumored to have an abrasive personality and for that reason might not be suitable as a backup anyway). I’d give Arbour a slight edge in coaching due to his repeated ability to pull upsets and to do more with weaker personnel than he’s often given credit for; he took the near-expansion Islanders to the conference finals in 1975, getting the most out of grinders like JP Parise and Jude Drouin. Arbour also helped upset Lemieux’s powerhouse Penguins in 1993 with a weak lineup due to instilling excellent work ethic and discipline in his players (Barrasso, Nanaimo’s backup, played poorly against the Islanders due to his frustration at his crease constantly getting swarmed).

In terms of intangibles, I will again point out that the Canadiens had a first-round bye. This means that my players will be somewhat more rested and in better physical condition. Aside from Simmer, all of my players were consistently healthy and had long, steady careers. Nanaimo has quite a few inconsistent players (Litzenberger and Stevens as discussed above; Primeau only played 8 seasons of professional hockey; and even Orr struggled with injuries).

Which team has home ice advantage?
 
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Hockey Outsider

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Strategy

I will match up my top line against Nanaimo’s fourth line. This has several advantages. First, Cournoyer will be matched up against Kilrea. Aside from 1930 (the fluky year with the one-time rule changes), Kilrea was never much of a scoring threat. Therefore this matchup will allow Cournoyer to fully utilize his speed and goal-scoring ability; he can go deep into the Clippers’ offensive zone. Cournoyer will be able to take on a very aggressive offensive role given the lack of a counter-attack from Kilrea. Second, this allows Simmer to matchup against Nesterenko. I realize the latter is a good defensive forward, but Simmer's game is quite simple – he plants himself in the crease and waits for rebounds, tips and screens. Simmer is quite disciplined (in fact, Nesterenko took penalties at a significantly higher rate than Simmer, which could easily turn a PP into a 2-man advantage if Nesterenko isn't careful). Simmer has a 25 lbs advantage on Nesterenko, who will have a hard time moving him from the crease. Finally, Lalone matches up against Skov. While Skov was a key player on the Wings’ dynasty, it will be difficult for him to contain Lalonde’s speed, toughness and stickhandling ability. (Keep in mind that Leswick and Pavelich usually got the really hard tasks on the Wings dynasty i.e. shutting down Rocket Richard).

I will match our second lines straight across. As discussed before, my second line has better personnel at each forward position (except possibly LW). Smith and Ratelle are the two best scorers on either line; Hadfield should match Stevens’ physical play, and Smith and Ratelle should match Nighbor’s defensive play.

The Clippers are unique because their best offensive player is a defenseman. I was considering splitting up Potvin and Howell but I’ve decided to keep them together, and on the ice versus Orr. Whenever Orr rushes with the puck, Potvin will have two tasks. First, he will try to neutralize Orr’s offense via bodychecking or dropping the gloves. Given that Potvin is one of the few physical players in the draft that can keep up with Orr, #4 will face a physical pounding that he never had to face before, either in the NHL or in the ATD. Second, Potvin will be aggressive and will try to take the puck away and rush up ice as soon as possible. Potvin’s excellent speed can create odd-man rushes against Benedict; Orr was a terrific skater but even he would have a hard time catching up to Potvin and my speedy forwards if they have a head start. (McCrimmon was a good player but speed was never his strength, so defending a Potvin-led counterattack will be especially difficult). Potvin was (arrogantly, though somewhat justifiably) angry that Orr was chosen as MVP at the 1976 Canada Cup and spent his entire career being (unfairly) compared to Orr. I’m sure he’d love the chance to prove he can keep up with #4, and I’d bet he’d be willing to drop the gloves. (I’d hate to lose Potvin for five minutes, but Orr would be a bigger loss to Nanaimo).

In the event that Potvin gets out of position looking for a check (a rarity), or gets caught on his rush, keep in mind that Harry Howell, the dependable positional blueliner, will play more conservatively and will be back in his zone on time. In short, if Orr wants to rush, he must be prepared for Potvin’s physical play and the likelihood of odd-man rushes against. This should limit Nanaimo's offense considerably.

My third line will also stay on the ice against Orr (presumably Nanaimo is playing their top line at the same time). Primeau is a very good forward, but Doug Jarvis spent his entire career shutting down the league’s centres, including Clarke, Ratelle and Sittler, often as the key defensive centre on a dynasty. This is a good matchup for the Canadiens because Primeau and Jarvis are both small and disciplined (this prevents Jarvis from getting outmatched against a larger, more physical centre). Marcotte will get a very tough opponent in Conacher, but they match up well. Marcotte, like Conacher, was a tough, physical player. Marcotte was a very aggressive checker and fighter. This means that Marcotte will be able to stand up to Conacher’s strength, and can wear him down physical due to his aggressive style. Also, Marcotte was surprisingly disciplined (317 PIM in 868 games) while Conacher took 523 PIM in 460 games; Marcotte’s intense physical play and agitation will likely force Conacher into taking some foolish penalties, removing Nanaimo’s second-best player for good portions of the game. Keep in mind that Marcotte helped contain Gordie Howe in the second round.
 
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pitseleh

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Thanks for getting things started HO. I've been under the weather for a few days but I seem to be on the mend right now.

To start out, I would like to note that Viktor Kuzkin will draw back into the lineup in place of Marotte. At this point in the draft, I'd imagine that my #6 defenseman will get less than 10 minutes of ice time a night, and I feel more comfortable using Kuzkin as a PP specialist than I do having Marotte eat up time at ES/PK.

Here are some thoughts on personnel:

I'll start off by agreeing that coaching and goaltending are essentially a wash. I have Benedict slightly ahead of Broda, but in the playoffs it's so close that it doesn't really matter. Arbour is a better coach than Day, but again, it's close. Both teams have coaches that suit the personnel they have put together.

In terms of top-6 forwards, I think our teams are remarkably similarly constructed - albeit different in terms of positional advantage. For that reason, while positional advantage is a good place to start in the comparison, I think a better reflection is accomplished by looking at what each player brings to their respective line rather than to their position. I'm a big Newsy Lalonde fan, but I like Conacher better for his combination of toughness, size, and goal scoring ability as the centerpiece of a top line. While Cournoyer represents a step-up from either Schriner or Primeau (mitigating the advantage that Conacher brings), Simmer is the definite weak link on either top line. For that reason, I give the Clippers a slight edge.

Nighbor versus Ratelle is an interesting comparison, because one way I've seen Nighbor is as a stronger defensively Ratelle. I think they essentially represent a wash (while bringing different respective strengths). Smith and Stevens bring similar type games (with Hooley obviously bringing more consistently strong offense). Litzenberger and Hadfield represent the triggermen on the respective lines, with Litzenberger bringing a longer, higher peak.

Our third and fourth lines representing contrasting styles. Our third line has a stronger offensive focus while Montreal's brings more defensively and physically. Montreal's fourth line seems more centered around crash and bang type play and additional goal scoring while our unit is more defensively inclined (though Murray was a good defensive player). I'll get into the respective strengths and weaknesses later when I get into matchups.

Our defenses are again similarly built, with our top two defenseman anchoring our top two pairings, with the advantage of Orr/Conacher over Potvin/Pronovost going to the Clippers. While Howell is better than any other defenseman on the Clippers, I think this advantage is mitigated by advantages that the team has at other relative positions. The only other advantage that I give the Canadiens is the Hajt/Kuzkin matchup, and I figure that both will have minimal impacts on the series.

I expect this will be a very tight matchup. I'll post more on strategy later.
 

BM67

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Lets set the deadline for voting at midnight eastern Monday the 7th.

We also need to get a list of who is doing writeups. A different writer for each game was discussed, and about 4 or so guys chimed in in the draft thread.
 
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Sturminator

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I'd really appreciate it if we could extend the deadline to Monday night. I was quite busy over the holidays and haven't yet had a chance to post of think much about this finals matchup. Having this weekend would really help.
 

Transplanted Caper

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Probably will be posted elsewhere, but given the name of the Finals I thought it warrented attention.

http://www.tsn.ca/headlines/news_story/?ID=226452

TORONTO - Former columnist and sports editor Milt Dunnell, a Toronto Star legend and Hall of Fame journalist known for his deft turn of phrase and encyclopedic breadth of experience, has died. He was 102.

Dunnell died at North York General Hospital late Thursday night, a source from the Star told The Canadian Press.

"To be honest, when I was younger, I never thought I'd make it to 50," Dunnell told the Toronto Star in 2005 when he turned 100.

"In some respects, I'm healthier now than when I was younger. But I don't think there's any great achievement in living to be 100 years old."

Dunnell, who turned 102 on Christmas Eve, was an honoured member of Canada's Sports Hall of Fame, the Hockey Hall of Fame, the Canadian Horse Racing Hall of Fame and the Football Reporters of Canada Hall of Fame.





Dunnell was known around the newsroom as Mr. Sports or, more fondly, as Uncle Miltie.

"By any measure, the former Toronto Star sports editor was simply Canada's top sports columnist for more than half a century," Jim Kernaghan of the London Free Press wrote in 2005.
 

Diving Pokecheck*

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Rest In Peace.
Should we re-name it the Milt Dunnell Memorial Trophy?
 
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pitseleh

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RIP Milt Dunnell. His contribution to hockey was remarkable.

To start off on the strategy discussion, I'll address HO's points first. It'll be important because (I believe) Montreal has home-ice advantage, so they will have the edge in getting the matchups they want.

Strategy

I will match up my top line against Nanaimo’s fourth line. This has several advantages. First, Cournoyer will be matched up against Kilrea. Aside from 1930 (the fluky year with the one-time rule changes), Kilrea was never much of a scoring threat. Therefore this matchup will allow Cournoyer to fully utilize his speed and goal-scoring ability; he can go deep into the Clippers’ offensive zone. Cournoyer will be able to take on a very aggressive offensive role given the lack of a counter-attack from Kilrea. Second, this allows Simmer to matchup against Nesterenko. I realize the latter is a good defensive forward, but Simmer's game is quite simple – he plants himself in the crease and waits for rebounds, tips and screens. Simmer is quite disciplined (in fact, Nesterenko took penalties at a significantly higher rate than Simmer, which could easily turn a PP into a 2-man advantage if Nesterenko isn't careful). Simmer has a 25 lbs advantage on Nesterenko, who will have a hard time moving him from the crease. Finally, Lalone matches up against Skov. While Skov was a key player on the Wings’ dynasty, it will be difficult for him to contain Lalonde’s speed, toughness and stickhandling ability. (Keep in mind that Leswick and Pavelich usually got the really hard tasks on the Wings dynasty i.e. shutting down Rocket Richard).

Though Kilrea-Skov-Nesterenko isn't a top-notch checking line, I feel they have the personnel to effectively matchup against Montreal's top line. Cournoyer's biggest threat is his tremendous speed, so having Kilrea to match up against him is vital. Kilrea was one of the, if not the, fastest skaters in the league during his time (according to Ultimate Hockey he set the fastest skater record in the 30's). Even ignoring his outlier year, he was a fairly consistent offensive threat and even had another top-10 goal scoring finish.

While Nesterenko did earn his share of penalties, he was also a very reliable PKer for many years with the Blackhawks. I can't imagine him being a liability to draw a penalty on the PK. He was also a very belligerent player and wasn't afraid to drop the gloves - which probably factors in to his inflated PIM totals.

Again, while Leswick and Pavelich were better defensive players, Skov was responsible for shutting down centers who play tough games like Lalonde in Schmidt, Lach and Teeder Kennedy. Lalonde was a faster skater than the three, but Skov should be able to keep up defensively and physically.

Our fourth line will likely play around 8-10 minutes a night, so the rest of the time I expect to have either Prentice-Weiland-Rousseau or the Nighbor line on the ice against the Lalonde line. I feel as though Lalonde is the real catalyst for that line, and effectively limiting his offensive freedom will be the key to limiting their production.

I will match our second lines straight across. As discussed before, my second line has better personnel at each forward position (except possibly LW). Smith and Ratelle are the two best scorers on either line; Hadfield should match Stevens’ physical play, and Smith and Ratelle should match Nighbor’s defensive play.

I'd say that's debateable. Nighbor finished in the top-10 scorers 4 times (to Smith's six I believe) but also had a couple of great seasons in the NHA. At worst I'd say they are comparable offensively.

I also think that Stevens and Litzenberger were sufficiently better offensively than Hadfield to mitigate some of that advantage.

The Clippers are unique because their best offensive player is a defenseman. I was considering splitting up Potvin and Howell but I’ve decided to keep them together, and on the ice versus Orr. Whenever Orr rushes with the puck, Potvin will have two tasks. First, he will try to neutralize Orr’s offense via bodychecking or dropping the gloves. Given that Potvin is one of the few physical players in the draft that can keep up with Orr, #4 will face a physical pounding that he never had to face before, either in the NHL or in the ATD. Second, Potvin will be aggressive and will try to take the puck away and rush up ice as soon as possible. Potvin’s excellent speed can create odd-man rushes against Benedict; Orr was a terrific skater but even he would have a hard time catching up to Potvin and my speedy forwards if they have a head start. (McCrimmon was a good player but speed was never his strength, so defending a Potvin-led counterattack will be especially difficult). Potvin was (arrogantly, though somewhat justifiably) angry that Orr was chosen as MVP at the 1976 Canada Cup and spent his entire career being (unfairly) compared to Orr. I’m sure he’d love the chance to prove he can keep up with #4, and I’d bet he’d be willing to drop the gloves. (I’d hate to lose Potvin for five minutes, but Orr would be a bigger loss to Nanaimo).

In the event that Potvin gets out of position looking for a check (a rarity), or gets caught on his rush, keep in mind that Harry Howell, the dependable positional blueliner, will play more conservatively and will be back in his zone on time. In short, if Orr wants to rush, he must be prepared for Potvin’s physical play and the likelihood of odd-man rushes against. This should limit Nanaimo's offense considerably.

My third line will also stay on the ice against Orr (presumably Nanaimo is playing their top line at the same time). Primeau is a very good forward, but Doug Jarvis spent his entire career shutting down the league’s centres, including Clarke, Ratelle and Sittler, often as the key defensive centre on a dynasty. This is a good matchup for the Canadiens because Primeau and Jarvis are both small and disciplined (this prevents Jarvis from getting outmatched against a larger, more physical centre). Marcotte will get a very tough opponent in Conacher, but they match up well. Marcotte, like Conacher, was a tough, physical player. Marcotte was a very aggressive checker and fighter. This means that Marcotte will be able to stand up to Conacher’s strength, and can wear him down physical due to his aggressive style. Also, Marcotte was surprisingly disciplined (317 PIM in 868 games) while Conacher took 523 PIM in 460 games; Marcotte’s intense physical play and agitation will likely force Conacher into taking some foolish penalties, removing Nanaimo’s second-best player for good portions of the game. Keep in mind that Marcotte helped contain Gordie Howe in the second round.

I like the way this matchup plays out for the Clippers:

1) Having Potvin-Howell on the ice for the bulk of their ice time trying to shut down Orr and our top line limits Potvin's ability to catalyze their offense other than on the PP.

2) The worry of the counter-attack against Orr's offensive pressure is limited by the offensive abilities of Marcotte-Jarvis-Martin. Though Potvin may be able to create transition offense, having those players involved in the play is much less worrisome than having to face either of Montreal's top two lines.

As for our strategies:

1) We'll look to get our top line out against Bonin-Murray-Shack as much as possible. Bonin and Shack are more known for being physical diggers with an offensive touch. For that reason, having our top line out against them gives us the best chance of creating offense against the Canadiens.

2) With Kuzkin in the lineup mostly as a PP specialist, Orr and Conacher will get double shifted quite a bit, and will likely combine for nearly the whole game on the left side at ES/PK. Just to reiterate, because of this imbalance in ice-time between the right and left side, Orr and Conacher will likely have two different partners through the game (as they have all draft). Conacher will be on the ice against the Hadfield/Smith to act as the physical presence defensively. He will see a fair bit of ice time with Hitchman when this line is on the ice to have two strong physical defensemen on the ice.

Hap Day will likely see more ice-time against the top unit of Montreal. He is a quicker blueliner than either McCrimmon or Hitchman and is very positionally sound. I feel more comfortable with him on the ice to matchup with the speed of the top line.

3) Prentice-Weiland-Rousseau is a much more offensively competent line than either of Montreal's bottom two and represents a competitive advantage for Nanaimo. They will be able to keep either of Montreal's top-two lines honest defensively while providing very solid defense.

I think the advantages that Orr and our third line give us offensively (with Potvin being relied upon more defensively) are the competitive advantages that we can utilize to take the series.
 

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