ATD#8 Don Cherry Semi-Final: #2 New Jersey Devils vs. #3 Guelph Bitmores
- Thread starter VanIslander
- Start date
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
New Jersey Devils
PP1: Olmstead - M.Lemieux - Iginla - Niedermayer - Crawford
PP2: Gillies - Petrov - Darragh - Pronger - MacKay
PK1: Walker - MacKay - Johnson - Morrow
PK2: Muller - Nevin - Pronger - Wentworth
vs.
Guelph Biltmores
PP1: Bobby Hull - F. Boucher - Nedomansky - Sjoberg - Stanfield
PP2: Sid Smith - Kennedy - Mosienko - Mohns - Toppazzini
PK1: Marshall - Toppazzini - Brewer - E.Seibert
PK2: Bobby Hull - Kennedy - Mohns - Coulter
PP1: Olmstead - M.Lemieux - Iginla - Niedermayer - Crawford
PP2: Gillies - Petrov - Darragh - Pronger - MacKay
PK1: Walker - MacKay - Johnson - Morrow
PK2: Muller - Nevin - Pronger - Wentworth
vs.
Guelph Biltmores
PP1: Bobby Hull - F. Boucher - Nedomansky - Sjoberg - Stanfield
PP2: Sid Smith - Kennedy - Mosienko - Mohns - Toppazzini
PK1: Marshall - Toppazzini - Brewer - E.Seibert
PK2: Bobby Hull - Kennedy - Mohns - Coulter
pappyline
Registered User
I am really looking forward to this series. Should be one of the best of the second round.
New Jersey has the best player in the series in Lemieux. But I think Hull is in a better situation to succeed with his linemates. There isn't a better offensive line left in the draft than Hull-Boucher-Nedomansky. The line has everything, and they can go off for several goals in a period in a flash.
So who plays against this line? Likely Walker-Mackay-Nevin. They have a daunting task. I like BM's fourth line, I think it's the best fourth line in the draft, but I think Dornhoefer might be in trouble trying to keep up with Hull.
I love BM's first line as well. Lots of size. They'll open up room for Lemieux. Very reminscent of how Stevens-Lemieux-Tocchet wreaked havoc on the NHL from March 1992 to May 1993. An unstoppable trio. pappy has a couple of nice checking lines. Does he go with Kurtenbach's robust physical play to shadow Lemieux, or does he go with the steady Fred Stanfield?
Both teams have excellent, well-rounded second lines. I like pappy's a little more, simply for the presence of Teeder Kennedy. One of the top 50 players of all-time, IMO.
People have questioned the ability of pappy's defence to move the puck. I strongly disagree. Brewer was a strong skater and a fine puck mover. A bit of a kamikazee. Seibert could definitely move the puck. Sjoberg, Mohns and Coulter had talent, too.
I think Seibert's the best defenceman in this series. As I've said before, on the surface, Niedermayer went far too soon - likely 30 to 40 spots too soon - but BM couldn't pass up the chance to keep Nieds and Pronger together. I don't think Niedermayer is that much better than Brewer.
BM has a strong shut-down pairing with Johnson and Morrow. I think Morrow went too soon, but as a third-pairing shutdown guy, he's in the right role. The scary thing about pappy's top pairing is not only their talent, but they're rocks. Brewer was a kamikazee - he was fearless and he played much bigger than his 5'9" frame would suggest. Size is only an issue for those who let it become an issue. It's not an issue for Brewer.
I'll give Guelph a slight edge in net. Rayner and Lumley are good enough to be No. 1 goalies in this draft, but they're in the bottom tier. Both teams have excellent back-ups.
New Jersey gets the edge behind the bench, but pappy has assembled a Bob Johnson-type team.
New Jersey has the best player in the series in Lemieux. But I think Hull is in a better situation to succeed with his linemates. There isn't a better offensive line left in the draft than Hull-Boucher-Nedomansky. The line has everything, and they can go off for several goals in a period in a flash.
So who plays against this line? Likely Walker-Mackay-Nevin. They have a daunting task. I like BM's fourth line, I think it's the best fourth line in the draft, but I think Dornhoefer might be in trouble trying to keep up with Hull.
I love BM's first line as well. Lots of size. They'll open up room for Lemieux. Very reminscent of how Stevens-Lemieux-Tocchet wreaked havoc on the NHL from March 1992 to May 1993. An unstoppable trio. pappy has a couple of nice checking lines. Does he go with Kurtenbach's robust physical play to shadow Lemieux, or does he go with the steady Fred Stanfield?
Both teams have excellent, well-rounded second lines. I like pappy's a little more, simply for the presence of Teeder Kennedy. One of the top 50 players of all-time, IMO.
People have questioned the ability of pappy's defence to move the puck. I strongly disagree. Brewer was a strong skater and a fine puck mover. A bit of a kamikazee. Seibert could definitely move the puck. Sjoberg, Mohns and Coulter had talent, too.
I think Seibert's the best defenceman in this series. As I've said before, on the surface, Niedermayer went far too soon - likely 30 to 40 spots too soon - but BM couldn't pass up the chance to keep Nieds and Pronger together. I don't think Niedermayer is that much better than Brewer.
BM has a strong shut-down pairing with Johnson and Morrow. I think Morrow went too soon, but as a third-pairing shutdown guy, he's in the right role. The scary thing about pappy's top pairing is not only their talent, but they're rocks. Brewer was a kamikazee - he was fearless and he played much bigger than his 5'9" frame would suggest. Size is only an issue for those who let it become an issue. It's not an issue for Brewer.
I'll give Guelph a slight edge in net. Rayner and Lumley are good enough to be No. 1 goalies in this draft, but they're in the bottom tier. Both teams have excellent back-ups.
New Jersey gets the edge behind the bench, but pappy has assembled a Bob Johnson-type team.
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
- Jan 16, 2005
- 9,171
- 14,534
I like how both teams have top lines that are very much based on complementing their star's style. New Jersey's top trio features a proven grinder, who can do the dirty work along the boards and feed the puck to Lemieux, and a first-rate finisher, who has the skill and speed to give him the space to take advantage of Lemieux's passes. Both players will stand up for Lemieux, reducing the risk of injury. Guelph's line features three outstanding skaters, allowing Hull to use his speed, and is centred by an exceptional playmaker, which will take pressure off Hull to move the puck up the ice, and will give #9 the opportunity to play with a better linemate than he's ever (regularly) played with before. Both lines are greater than the sum of their parts.
Kennedy and Petrov are surprisingly similar in style (excellent two-way face-off men with great skill, determination, and checking abilities; both are surprisingly medicore skaters). Still, I have to give the nod to one of the very best playoff performers in hockey history. Their LWs, Smith and Gillies, are completely different styles, but both got their jobs done in the POs (Smith having quite an edge in scoring, though). Darragh (with two retro Smythes) gives BM a line with three great big-game performers, though Mosienko provides some solid two-way play.
I would probably take Hull off the PK. I assume he'd be getting around 25 minutes per night against a fast, tough defense. Pappy, you've seen Hull play, but I'm sure Stanfield would be at least as good on the PK (though perhaps less of a SHG threat). Save Hull's energy for ES and the PP.
Pappy definitely has the best defenseman in the series with Earl Siebert. His style of play is similar to Pronger's except Siebert was extremely consistent (10-time NHL all-star) while Pronger has been frequently injured and had some off years. Both teams have an unheralded defensive rock: Pappy has Art Coulter, a hard-hitting four-time all-star who will make life miserable for Lemieux, while BM has Cy Wentworth (who led the PO in scoring one year and was named the best defenseman of the 1930s by Ultimate Hockey). Any team will have a tough time scoring against BM's third defense pair, which features a 10-time PCHA all-star and an elite shutdown defenseman from a dynasty team.
Pappy has a very clean, disciplined team, which will minimize the time spent against a devastating powerplay (Lemieux was, easily I think, the best powerplay player in NHL history). New Jersey is also quite disciplined, though I don't expect that Pronger, Gillies or Dornhoefer will find many chances to drop the gloves.
Kennedy and Petrov are surprisingly similar in style (excellent two-way face-off men with great skill, determination, and checking abilities; both are surprisingly medicore skaters). Still, I have to give the nod to one of the very best playoff performers in hockey history. Their LWs, Smith and Gillies, are completely different styles, but both got their jobs done in the POs (Smith having quite an edge in scoring, though). Darragh (with two retro Smythes) gives BM a line with three great big-game performers, though Mosienko provides some solid two-way play.
I would probably take Hull off the PK. I assume he'd be getting around 25 minutes per night against a fast, tough defense. Pappy, you've seen Hull play, but I'm sure Stanfield would be at least as good on the PK (though perhaps less of a SHG threat). Save Hull's energy for ES and the PP.
Pappy definitely has the best defenseman in the series with Earl Siebert. His style of play is similar to Pronger's except Siebert was extremely consistent (10-time NHL all-star) while Pronger has been frequently injured and had some off years. Both teams have an unheralded defensive rock: Pappy has Art Coulter, a hard-hitting four-time all-star who will make life miserable for Lemieux, while BM has Cy Wentworth (who led the PO in scoring one year and was named the best defenseman of the 1930s by Ultimate Hockey). Any team will have a tough time scoring against BM's third defense pair, which features a 10-time PCHA all-star and an elite shutdown defenseman from a dynasty team.
Pappy has a very clean, disciplined team, which will minimize the time spent against a devastating powerplay (Lemieux was, easily I think, the best powerplay player in NHL history). New Jersey is also quite disciplined, though I don't expect that Pronger, Gillies or Dornhoefer will find many chances to drop the gloves.
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pappyline
Registered User
Mario does scare me, Still assessing the situation but my initial thought is to play Kurtenbach against Lemieux. Also plan to have the D duo of Seibert and Brewer out against the Lemiux line whenever possible.
pappyline
Registered User
Not too worried about Hull having a lot of playing time. I have a DVD of a Hawk/Wings 65 playoff game and it appears Hull hardly left the ice. Out there every PP & PK, regular shift, plus occasionally on a makeshift 4th line. Must have played 35-40 minutes.
However, you make a good point. I do have some good PKer's so why not rest Hull for what he does best-scoring goals. I have set up another PK unit with Colville & Mackell up front. I read something recently about Colville being a very good PKer who was a real SHG threat.
pappyline
Registered User
Thanks to GBC & Hockey O/S for their analysis. it is very helpful.
here are my initial impressions:
-Guelph has the better team but NJ has the best player in Mario.
-It is important to contain Mario. (impossible to stop him completely). all of my centres will play him tight but Kurtenbach will be the prime matchup.
-Must minimize NJ pp's as Mario is the best (agree with hockey O/S on that point). Guelph has diciplined players to do that.
-Seibert/brewer out against the mario line as much as possible.
-Would be comfortable with matching 1st lines. Think Guelph has the edge. Although I am impreesed with NJ's first line.
-Think Guelph has the edge on 2nd & 3rd lines also though not real familiar with Some Nj players. Will be interesting to hear BM67 response.
-Guelph 4th line will not see much ice as a line. Picked mainly for special teams. May throw Hull out with Stanfield & Topper on occasion (sorry Gaye, tough being the 4th Lw on a Hull team).
-Guelph has a much stronger defense.
-Goaltending is close.
-Irvin is a great coach but Badger Bob is very suited to the guelph lineup.
Expect a tough series with Guelph prevailing.
here are my initial impressions:
-Guelph has the better team but NJ has the best player in Mario.
-It is important to contain Mario. (impossible to stop him completely). all of my centres will play him tight but Kurtenbach will be the prime matchup.
-Must minimize NJ pp's as Mario is the best (agree with hockey O/S on that point). Guelph has diciplined players to do that.
-Seibert/brewer out against the mario line as much as possible.
-Would be comfortable with matching 1st lines. Think Guelph has the edge. Although I am impreesed with NJ's first line.
-Think Guelph has the edge on 2nd & 3rd lines also though not real familiar with Some Nj players. Will be interesting to hear BM67 response.
-Guelph 4th line will not see much ice as a line. Picked mainly for special teams. May throw Hull out with Stanfield & Topper on occasion (sorry Gaye, tough being the 4th Lw on a Hull team).
-Guelph has a much stronger defense.
-Goaltending is close.
-Irvin is a great coach but Badger Bob is very suited to the guelph lineup.
Expect a tough series with Guelph prevailing.
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BM67
Registered User
Not familiar? Click the links.
PP1: Olmstead, Lemieux, Iginla, Niedermayer, Crawford
PP2: Gillies, Petrov, Darragh, Pronger, MacKay
PK1: Walker, MacKay, Johnson, Morrow
PK2: Muller, Nevin, Pronger, Wentworth
Player - Hgt. - Wgt. - Shot/Catch
Mario Lemieux - 6'4", 225 lbs, Shoots: right
Chris Pronger - 6'6", 220lbs, Shoots: left
Scott Niedermayer - 6'1", 205lbs, Shoots: left
Jarome Iginla - 6'1", 210 lbs, Shoots: right
Bert Olmstead - 6'1", 180lbs, Shoots: left
Clark Gillies - 6'3", 215lbs, Shoots: left
Vladimir Petrov - 6'0", 198 lbs, Shoots: right
Ernie Johnson - 6'1", 188lbs, Shoots: left
Ken Morrow - 6'4", 210 lbs, Shoots: right
Jack Darragh - 5'10", 168 lbs, Shoots: left
Mickey MacKay - 5'9", 162 lbs, Shoots: left
Jack Walker - 5'8", 153 lbs, Shoots: left
Harry Lumley – 6’0â€, 195 lbs, Catches: right
Kirk Muller – 6’0â€, 205 lbs, Shoots: left
Rick MacLeish – 5’11â€, 185 lbs, Shoots: left
Jack Crawford - 5’11â€, 200 lbs, Shoots: right
Cy Wentworth - 5'10, 170 lbs, Shoots: right
Bob Nevin - 6'0", 185 lbs, Shoots: right
Dick Irvin Sr., coach
Hap Holmes – 5’10â€, 170 lbs, Catches: left
Gary Dornhoefer - 6'1", 190 lbs, Shoots: right
Frank Patrick - 5'11", 185 lbs, Shoots: left
Jack Marshall - 5'9", 160 lbs, Shoots: ?left?
Bernie Morris - 5'7", 145 lbs, Shoots: right
Mario Lemieux NHL GP 915 G 690 A 1033 Pts 1723 PIM 834 PO GP 107 G 76 A 96 Pts 172 PIM 87 WC-A GP 9 G 4 A 6 Pts 10 PIM 2 CanCup GP 9 G 11 A 7 Pts 18 PIM 8 W-Cup GP 6 G 1 A 4 Pts 5 PIM 2 OLY GP 5 G 2 A 4 Pts 6 PIM 0
Goals Leader: NHL: 87-88, 88-89, 95-96; NHL Playoffs: 92
Assists Leader: NHL: 88-89, 95-96, 96-97; NHL Playoffs: 91
Points Leader: NHL: 87-88, 88-89, 91-92, 92-93, 95-96, 96-97; NHL Playoffs: 91, 92
Chris Pronger NHL GP 868 G 119 A 396 Pts 515 PIM 1241 PO GP 128 G 18 A 69 Pts 87 PIM 262 WC-A GP 9 G 0 A 2 Pts 2 PIM 12 OLY GP 18 G 1 A 3 Pts 4 PIM 22
Scott Niedermayer NHL GP 1053 G 140 A 468 Pts 608 PIM 660 PO GP 183 G 22 A 64 Pts 86 PIM 140 WC-A GP 9 G 3 A 2 Pts 5 PIM 12 W-Cup GP 14 G 2 A 4 Pts 6 PIM 15 OLY GP 6 G 1 A 1 Pts 2 PIM 4
Assists Leader: NHL Playoffs: 03
Points Leader: NHL Playoffs: 03
Jarome Iginla NHL GP 778 G 324 A 340 Pts 664 PIM 548 PO GP 41 G 21 A 15 Pts 36 PIM 68 WC-A GP 11 G 2 A 3 Pts 5 PIM 2 W-Cup GP 6 G 2 A 1 Pts 3 PIM 2 OLY GP 12 G 5 A 2 Pts 7 PIM 4
Goals Leader: NHL: 01-02, 03-04; NHL Playoffs: 04
Points Leader: NHL 01-02
Bert Olmstead NHL GP 848 G 181 A 421 Pts 602 PIM 884 PO GP 115 G 16 A 43 Pts 59 PIM 101
Assists Leader: NHL: 54-55, 55-56; NHL Playoffs: 56, 57
Clark Gillies NHL GP 958 G 319 A 378 Pts 697 PIM 1023 PO GP 164 G 47 A 47 Pts 94 PIM 287 CanCup GP 7 G 2 A 5 Pts 7 PIM 8
Vladimir Petrov USSR GP 596 G 370 A 341 Pts 711 PIM 402 WC-A GP 102 G 74 A 80 Pts 154 PIM 52 OLY* GP 12 G 8 A 5 Pts 13 PIM 14 Sum 72 GP 8 G 3 A 4 Pts 7 PIM 10 Sum 74 GP 7 G 1 A 6 Pts 7 PIM 4
* - incomplete stats
Goals Leader: USSR: 69-70, 72-73, 78-79; WC-A: 73
Assists Leader: USSR: 78-79, ???; WC-A: 73, ???
Points Leader: USSR: 69-70, 72-73, 74-75, 77-78, 78-79; WC-A: 73, 75, 77, 79
Ernie Johnson ECAHA GP 40 G 46 A 0 Pts 46 PIM 153 PO GP 15 G 18 A 0 Pts 18 PIM 45 NHA GP 29 G 13 A 0 Pts 13 PIM 107 PO GP 1 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 9 PCHA GP 191 G 55 A 37 Pts 92 PIM 255 PO GP 5 G 1 A 0 Pts 1 PIM 9
Goals Leader: Stanley Cup Playoffs: 08
Points Leader: Stanley Cup Playoffs: 08
Ken Morrow NHL GP 550 G 17 A 88 Pts 105 PIM 309 PO GP 127 G 11 A 22 Pts 33 PIM 97 WC-A GP 6 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 0 CanCup GP 6 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 6 OLY GP 7 G 1 A 2 Pts 3 PIM 6
Jack Darragh NHA GP 132 G 122 A 16 Pts 138 PIM 221 PO GP 9 G 6 A 0 Pts 6 PIM 9 NHL GP 121 G 66 A 46 Pts 112 PIM 113 PO GP 21 G 13 A 2 Pts 15 PIM 24
Goals Leader: Stanley Cup Playoffs: 21
Assists Leader: NHL: 20-21
Points Leader: Stanley Cup Playoffs: 20, 21
Mickey MacKay PCHA GP 192 G 159 A 82 Pts 241 PIM 193 PO GP 36 G 18 A 12 Pts 30 PIM 45 WCHL/WHL GP 55 G 39 A 10 Pts 49 PIM 41 NHL GP 147 G 44 A 19 Pts 63 PIM 79 PO GP 11 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 6
Goals Leader: PCHA: 14-15, 23-24; WCHL: 24-25
Assists Leader: PCHA: 21-22; PCHA Playoffs: 21
Points Leader: PCHA Playoffs: 18; Stanley Cup Playoffs: 18
Jack Walker NHA GP 40 G 32 A 23 Pts 45 PIM 28 PO GP 5 G 4 A 0 Pts 4 PIM 5 PCHA GP 166 G 82 A 58 Pts 140 PIM 31 PO GP 24 G 6 A 9 Pts 15 PIM 9 WCHL/WHL GP 58 G 16 A 15 Pts 31 PIM 22 PO GP 16 G 8 A 2 Pts 10 PIM 2 NHL GP 80 G 5 A 8 Pts 13 PIM 18
Goals Leader: Stanley Cup Playoffs: 25
Assists Leader: NHA: 13-14; Stanley Cup Playoffs: 20
Points Leader: Stanley Cup Playoffs: 25
Harry Lumley NHL GP 804 W 330 L 329 T 143 SO 71 GAA 2.76 PO GP 76 W 29 L 47 SO 7 GAA 2.50
Kirk Muller NHL GP 1349 G 357 A 602 Pts 959 PIM 1223 PO GP 127 G 33 A 36 Pts 69 PIM 153 WC-A GP 38 G 14 A 9 Pts 23 PIM 38 OLY GP 6 G 2 A 1 Pts 3 PIM 0
Rick MacLeish NHL GP 846 G 349 A 410 Pts 759 PIM 434 PO GP 114 G 54 A 53 Pts 107 PIM 38
Goals Leader: NHL Playoffs: 74
Points Leader: NHL Playoffs: 74, 75
Jack Crawford NHL GP 548 G 38 A 140 Pts 178 PIM 202 PO GP 66 G 3 A 13 Pts 16 PIM 36
Cy Wentworth NHL GP 575 G 39 A 68 Pts 107 PIM 355 PO GP 35 G 5 A 6 Pts 11 PIM 20
Points Leader: NHL Playoffs: 35
Bob Nevin NHL GP 1,128 G 307 A 419 Pts 726 PIM 211 PO GP 84 G 16 A 18 Pts 34 PIM 24 WHA GP 13 G 3 A 2 Pts 5 PIM 0
Dick Irvin NHL GP 1449 W 692 L 527 T 230 W% 0.557 PO GP 190 W 100 L 88 T 2 W% 0.532
Hap Holmes NHL GP 103 W 39 L 54 T 10 SO 17 GAA 2.43 PO GP 7 W 4 L 3 SO 0 GAA 4.00 NHA GP 45 W 27 L 26 T 0 SO 2 GAA 3.88 PO GP 5 W 4 L 1 SO 1 GAA 1.90 PCHA GP 192 W 101 L 89 T 2 SO 14 GAA 2.97 PO GP 24 W 9 L 13 T 2 SO 3 GAA 2.72 WCHL/WHL GP 58 W 31 L 23 T 4 SO 7 GAA 1.95 PO GP 12 W 7 L 1 T 4 SO 2 GAA 1.57
Gary Dornhoefer NHL GP 787 G 214 A 328 Pts 542 PIM 1291 PO GP 80 G 17 A 19 Pts 36 PIM 203
Frank Patrick ECAHA GP 8 G 8 A 0 Pts 8 PIM 6 NHA GP 11 G 8 A 0 Pts 8 PIM 23 PCHA/WCHL GP 87 G 65 A 36 Pts 101 PIM 59 PO GP 3 G 2 A 1 Pts 3 PIM 8
Assists Leader: PCHA: 12-13
Jack Marshall Pre-NHA GP 49 G 89 A 0 Pts 89 PIM 53 PO GP 11 G 11 A 0 Pts 11 PIM 10 NHA GP 80 G 10 A 4 Pts 14 PIM 47 PO GP 6 G 1 A 0 Pts 1 PIM 2
Goals Leader: FAHL: 03-04, 04-05; Stanley Cup Playoffs: 03
Points Leader: FAHL: 03-04, 04-05; Stanley Cup Playoffs: 03
Bernie Morris NHL GP 6 G 1 A 0 Pts 1 PIM 0 PCHA GP 167 G 155 A 76 Pts 231 PIM 137 PO Gp 15 G 16 A 4 Pts 20 PIM 0 WCHL GP 44 G 19 A 9 Pts 28 PIM 17 PO GP 7 G 3 A 6 Pts 9 PIM 8
Goals Leader: PCHA: 15-16; Stanley Cup Playoffs: 17
Assists Leader: PCHA: 17-18; WCHL Playoffs: 24; WCHL/PCHA Playoffs: 24
Points Leader: PCHA: 16-17; WCHL Playoffs: 24; WCHL/PCHA Playoffs: 24; Stanley Cup Playoffs: 17
THE NEW JERSEY DEVILS
Coach: Dick Irvin Sr.
Forwards:
Bert Olmstead - Mario Lemieux (C) - Jarome Iginla
Clark Gillies - Vladimir Petrov - Jack Darragh
Jack Walker - Mickey MacKay - Bob Nevin
Kirk Muller (A) - Rick MacLeish - Gary Dornhoefer
Jack Marshall - Bernie Morris
Defense:
Chris Pronger - Cy Wentworth
Scott Niedermayer (A) - Jack Crawford
Ernie Johnson - Ken Morrow
Frank Patrick
Goaltenders:
Harry Lumley
Harry "Hap" Holmes
Coach: Dick Irvin Sr.
Forwards:
Bert Olmstead - Mario Lemieux (C) - Jarome Iginla
Clark Gillies - Vladimir Petrov - Jack Darragh
Jack Walker - Mickey MacKay - Bob Nevin
Kirk Muller (A) - Rick MacLeish - Gary Dornhoefer
Jack Marshall - Bernie Morris
Defense:
Chris Pronger - Cy Wentworth
Scott Niedermayer (A) - Jack Crawford
Ernie Johnson - Ken Morrow
Frank Patrick
Goaltenders:
Harry Lumley
Harry "Hap" Holmes
PP1: Olmstead, Lemieux, Iginla, Niedermayer, Crawford
PP2: Gillies, Petrov, Darragh, Pronger, MacKay
PK1: Walker, MacKay, Johnson, Morrow
PK2: Muller, Nevin, Pronger, Wentworth
Player - Hgt. - Wgt. - Shot/Catch
Mario Lemieux - 6'4", 225 lbs, Shoots: right
Chris Pronger - 6'6", 220lbs, Shoots: left
Scott Niedermayer - 6'1", 205lbs, Shoots: left
Jarome Iginla - 6'1", 210 lbs, Shoots: right
Bert Olmstead - 6'1", 180lbs, Shoots: left
Clark Gillies - 6'3", 215lbs, Shoots: left
Vladimir Petrov - 6'0", 198 lbs, Shoots: right
Ernie Johnson - 6'1", 188lbs, Shoots: left
Ken Morrow - 6'4", 210 lbs, Shoots: right
Jack Darragh - 5'10", 168 lbs, Shoots: left
Mickey MacKay - 5'9", 162 lbs, Shoots: left
Jack Walker - 5'8", 153 lbs, Shoots: left
Harry Lumley – 6’0â€, 195 lbs, Catches: right
Kirk Muller – 6’0â€, 205 lbs, Shoots: left
Rick MacLeish – 5’11â€, 185 lbs, Shoots: left
Jack Crawford - 5’11â€, 200 lbs, Shoots: right
Cy Wentworth - 5'10, 170 lbs, Shoots: right
Bob Nevin - 6'0", 185 lbs, Shoots: right
Dick Irvin Sr., coach
Hap Holmes – 5’10â€, 170 lbs, Catches: left
Gary Dornhoefer - 6'1", 190 lbs, Shoots: right
Frank Patrick - 5'11", 185 lbs, Shoots: left
Jack Marshall - 5'9", 160 lbs, Shoots: ?left?
Bernie Morris - 5'7", 145 lbs, Shoots: right
Mario Lemieux NHL GP 915 G 690 A 1033 Pts 1723 PIM 834 PO GP 107 G 76 A 96 Pts 172 PIM 87 WC-A GP 9 G 4 A 6 Pts 10 PIM 2 CanCup GP 9 G 11 A 7 Pts 18 PIM 8 W-Cup GP 6 G 1 A 4 Pts 5 PIM 2 OLY GP 5 G 2 A 4 Pts 6 PIM 0
Goals Leader: NHL: 87-88, 88-89, 95-96; NHL Playoffs: 92
Assists Leader: NHL: 88-89, 95-96, 96-97; NHL Playoffs: 91
Points Leader: NHL: 87-88, 88-89, 91-92, 92-93, 95-96, 96-97; NHL Playoffs: 91, 92
Chris Pronger NHL GP 868 G 119 A 396 Pts 515 PIM 1241 PO GP 128 G 18 A 69 Pts 87 PIM 262 WC-A GP 9 G 0 A 2 Pts 2 PIM 12 OLY GP 18 G 1 A 3 Pts 4 PIM 22
Scott Niedermayer NHL GP 1053 G 140 A 468 Pts 608 PIM 660 PO GP 183 G 22 A 64 Pts 86 PIM 140 WC-A GP 9 G 3 A 2 Pts 5 PIM 12 W-Cup GP 14 G 2 A 4 Pts 6 PIM 15 OLY GP 6 G 1 A 1 Pts 2 PIM 4
Assists Leader: NHL Playoffs: 03
Points Leader: NHL Playoffs: 03
Jarome Iginla NHL GP 778 G 324 A 340 Pts 664 PIM 548 PO GP 41 G 21 A 15 Pts 36 PIM 68 WC-A GP 11 G 2 A 3 Pts 5 PIM 2 W-Cup GP 6 G 2 A 1 Pts 3 PIM 2 OLY GP 12 G 5 A 2 Pts 7 PIM 4
Goals Leader: NHL: 01-02, 03-04; NHL Playoffs: 04
Points Leader: NHL 01-02
Bert Olmstead NHL GP 848 G 181 A 421 Pts 602 PIM 884 PO GP 115 G 16 A 43 Pts 59 PIM 101
Assists Leader: NHL: 54-55, 55-56; NHL Playoffs: 56, 57
Clark Gillies NHL GP 958 G 319 A 378 Pts 697 PIM 1023 PO GP 164 G 47 A 47 Pts 94 PIM 287 CanCup GP 7 G 2 A 5 Pts 7 PIM 8
Vladimir Petrov USSR GP 596 G 370 A 341 Pts 711 PIM 402 WC-A GP 102 G 74 A 80 Pts 154 PIM 52 OLY* GP 12 G 8 A 5 Pts 13 PIM 14 Sum 72 GP 8 G 3 A 4 Pts 7 PIM 10 Sum 74 GP 7 G 1 A 6 Pts 7 PIM 4
* - incomplete stats
Goals Leader: USSR: 69-70, 72-73, 78-79; WC-A: 73
Assists Leader: USSR: 78-79, ???; WC-A: 73, ???
Points Leader: USSR: 69-70, 72-73, 74-75, 77-78, 78-79; WC-A: 73, 75, 77, 79
Ernie Johnson ECAHA GP 40 G 46 A 0 Pts 46 PIM 153 PO GP 15 G 18 A 0 Pts 18 PIM 45 NHA GP 29 G 13 A 0 Pts 13 PIM 107 PO GP 1 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 9 PCHA GP 191 G 55 A 37 Pts 92 PIM 255 PO GP 5 G 1 A 0 Pts 1 PIM 9
Goals Leader: Stanley Cup Playoffs: 08
Points Leader: Stanley Cup Playoffs: 08
Ken Morrow NHL GP 550 G 17 A 88 Pts 105 PIM 309 PO GP 127 G 11 A 22 Pts 33 PIM 97 WC-A GP 6 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 0 CanCup GP 6 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 6 OLY GP 7 G 1 A 2 Pts 3 PIM 6
Jack Darragh NHA GP 132 G 122 A 16 Pts 138 PIM 221 PO GP 9 G 6 A 0 Pts 6 PIM 9 NHL GP 121 G 66 A 46 Pts 112 PIM 113 PO GP 21 G 13 A 2 Pts 15 PIM 24
Goals Leader: Stanley Cup Playoffs: 21
Assists Leader: NHL: 20-21
Points Leader: Stanley Cup Playoffs: 20, 21
Mickey MacKay PCHA GP 192 G 159 A 82 Pts 241 PIM 193 PO GP 36 G 18 A 12 Pts 30 PIM 45 WCHL/WHL GP 55 G 39 A 10 Pts 49 PIM 41 NHL GP 147 G 44 A 19 Pts 63 PIM 79 PO GP 11 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 6
Goals Leader: PCHA: 14-15, 23-24; WCHL: 24-25
Assists Leader: PCHA: 21-22; PCHA Playoffs: 21
Points Leader: PCHA Playoffs: 18; Stanley Cup Playoffs: 18
Jack Walker NHA GP 40 G 32 A 23 Pts 45 PIM 28 PO GP 5 G 4 A 0 Pts 4 PIM 5 PCHA GP 166 G 82 A 58 Pts 140 PIM 31 PO GP 24 G 6 A 9 Pts 15 PIM 9 WCHL/WHL GP 58 G 16 A 15 Pts 31 PIM 22 PO GP 16 G 8 A 2 Pts 10 PIM 2 NHL GP 80 G 5 A 8 Pts 13 PIM 18
Goals Leader: Stanley Cup Playoffs: 25
Assists Leader: NHA: 13-14; Stanley Cup Playoffs: 20
Points Leader: Stanley Cup Playoffs: 25
Harry Lumley NHL GP 804 W 330 L 329 T 143 SO 71 GAA 2.76 PO GP 76 W 29 L 47 SO 7 GAA 2.50
Kirk Muller NHL GP 1349 G 357 A 602 Pts 959 PIM 1223 PO GP 127 G 33 A 36 Pts 69 PIM 153 WC-A GP 38 G 14 A 9 Pts 23 PIM 38 OLY GP 6 G 2 A 1 Pts 3 PIM 0
Rick MacLeish NHL GP 846 G 349 A 410 Pts 759 PIM 434 PO GP 114 G 54 A 53 Pts 107 PIM 38
Goals Leader: NHL Playoffs: 74
Points Leader: NHL Playoffs: 74, 75
Jack Crawford NHL GP 548 G 38 A 140 Pts 178 PIM 202 PO GP 66 G 3 A 13 Pts 16 PIM 36
Cy Wentworth NHL GP 575 G 39 A 68 Pts 107 PIM 355 PO GP 35 G 5 A 6 Pts 11 PIM 20
Points Leader: NHL Playoffs: 35
Bob Nevin NHL GP 1,128 G 307 A 419 Pts 726 PIM 211 PO GP 84 G 16 A 18 Pts 34 PIM 24 WHA GP 13 G 3 A 2 Pts 5 PIM 0
Dick Irvin NHL GP 1449 W 692 L 527 T 230 W% 0.557 PO GP 190 W 100 L 88 T 2 W% 0.532
Hap Holmes NHL GP 103 W 39 L 54 T 10 SO 17 GAA 2.43 PO GP 7 W 4 L 3 SO 0 GAA 4.00 NHA GP 45 W 27 L 26 T 0 SO 2 GAA 3.88 PO GP 5 W 4 L 1 SO 1 GAA 1.90 PCHA GP 192 W 101 L 89 T 2 SO 14 GAA 2.97 PO GP 24 W 9 L 13 T 2 SO 3 GAA 2.72 WCHL/WHL GP 58 W 31 L 23 T 4 SO 7 GAA 1.95 PO GP 12 W 7 L 1 T 4 SO 2 GAA 1.57
Gary Dornhoefer NHL GP 787 G 214 A 328 Pts 542 PIM 1291 PO GP 80 G 17 A 19 Pts 36 PIM 203
Frank Patrick ECAHA GP 8 G 8 A 0 Pts 8 PIM 6 NHA GP 11 G 8 A 0 Pts 8 PIM 23 PCHA/WCHL GP 87 G 65 A 36 Pts 101 PIM 59 PO GP 3 G 2 A 1 Pts 3 PIM 8
Assists Leader: PCHA: 12-13
Jack Marshall Pre-NHA GP 49 G 89 A 0 Pts 89 PIM 53 PO GP 11 G 11 A 0 Pts 11 PIM 10 NHA GP 80 G 10 A 4 Pts 14 PIM 47 PO GP 6 G 1 A 0 Pts 1 PIM 2
Goals Leader: FAHL: 03-04, 04-05; Stanley Cup Playoffs: 03
Points Leader: FAHL: 03-04, 04-05; Stanley Cup Playoffs: 03
Bernie Morris NHL GP 6 G 1 A 0 Pts 1 PIM 0 PCHA GP 167 G 155 A 76 Pts 231 PIM 137 PO Gp 15 G 16 A 4 Pts 20 PIM 0 WCHL GP 44 G 19 A 9 Pts 28 PIM 17 PO GP 7 G 3 A 6 Pts 9 PIM 8
Goals Leader: PCHA: 15-16; Stanley Cup Playoffs: 17
Assists Leader: PCHA: 17-18; WCHL Playoffs: 24; WCHL/PCHA Playoffs: 24
Points Leader: PCHA: 16-17; WCHL Playoffs: 24; WCHL/PCHA Playoffs: 24; Stanley Cup Playoffs: 17
BM67
Registered User
Jack Walker shut down Newsy Lalonde and Howie Morenz, and out scored them 9 points to 5, to win the Stanley Cup in 1917 and 1925. While you can hardly call Hull the "same old same old" or "par for the course", he should be well covered by the "old fox".
Mickey MacKay played on the same team with Frank Boucher out west for four years and out scored him by 31 goals while only trailing him by 7 assists. The writers of Ultimate Hockey selected as "Selke" winners over those four years: MacKay, Walker, Walker and Boucher.
I'll agree that Niedermayer went too soon, I did try to trade down to take him later, and that Brewer is underrated, but neither to the extent that you imply.
Niedermayer has a Norris, and two fairly close seconds, a Conn Smythe, and a playoff scoring title. The closest Brewer comes to any of that is a second place in Norris voting, which wasn't as close a finish as Niedermayer's second of last year. Niedermayer wasn't leading NJ in TOI from 97 to 03 because he sucked defensively, and since NJ had the fewest PP advantages of any team over that span, it's not like he was racking up big PP minutes.
Don't agree with these statements. Strongly disagree about the 3rd line.
My third line has 10 Ultimate Hockey "Selke" wins (7 Walker, 3 MacKay), a retro "Conn Smythe" (Walker), 3 goal scoring titles (3 MacKay), 2 assist titles (Walker, MacKay), two playoff scoring titles (MacKay, Walker), and 7 Stanley Cups (3 Walker, 2 MacKay, 2 Nevin).
My defense has: Hart & Norris winner Pronger, Norris and Conn Smythe winner Niedermayer, leader in all-star voting [=Norris] Crawford, and multiple UH "Norris" winner Johnson. Two of my defensemen tied for the playoff scoring lead, Wentworth and Niedermayer, and 3 of them have a higher point/game average in the playoffs, Wentworth, Morrow and Pronger.
I even have the only defenseman to ever score 6 goals in a game in reserve if I need more offense.
Having forwards at the point on both your PP units, makes Mario hungry for some PK time as well.
pappyline
Registered User
Yeh, looks like a good defensive line. Assume you want Walker on Hull even though both are LW's. Despite the "retro" Selke's, I really don't think that they can effectively contain the Hull line. The only way you can contain Hull is to have a strong fast guy stay on him 100% of the time. I don't think any body on the MacKay line fits this definition. Besides Hull has 2 very good line mates to take up the slack. In addition, this line will play the criss/cross style like Hull played on the Jets and Sather used on Edmonton. With 3 skilled players this style is very difficult to contain.
pappyline
Registered User
Yeh, I agree your 3rd line is good but I still think mine is better. I am not that impressed with retro awards given that far back. It was a far different game then. My 3rd line has won a few awards, Marshall won 2 retro Selke's, has an AS selection and was an integral part of 5 cup winners. Mackell was a ist team AS & was on 2 cup winners,
I think they match up pretty well with Guelph having a slight edge. LW is probably a wash. Both Marshall & Walker were great defensive players who could score. MacKay probably gets the edge over Kurtenbach. Mackell is definitely better than Nevin. Better speed & was a first team AS who came up big in the playoffs. Most assiists in 52-53 and most points in 57-58 (19pts in 12 Games)
My Defense has a lot of awards also. Seibert (2 Retro Norris, 10AS, 2 Cups), Brewer (4AS, 2 cups), Coulter (2AS, 2 cups), Sjoberg(Sewdish player of the year, WHA outstanding Def, WhA AS, 2 Avco cups), Colville (2AS, 1 cup), Anderson (retro Norris, hart, AS). I especially like my first pairing over yours. IMO Seibert/Brewer are more skilled & tougher than Pronger/Neidermayer.
Go ahead & put Mario on the PK & tire him out. Stanfield & Topper are my point forwards & both are also known for the defensive play. Plus they will likely get most of their playing times on special teams so will always be fresh. Topper was also a top pker & Stanfield played the point with Orr so he knows enough to stay back.
P.S. Must get a copy of Ultimate Hockey. You are picking some gems out of the book.
MXD
Original #4
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This is the message of a GM who is trying to learn : I'm not making any critism at Pappy's lineup.
Why is Brewer held in so high regards? I mean... fine. He has some AS ( 1 first, 3 second) in relatively few years, was noted as an extremely agile and quick skater...
This said, he did so in one of the weakest eras when it comes to D-Mens (at least, offensively), and I even wonder if he was playing on the 1st unit for the Leafs (in fact, he wasn't). This very reason makes me think he's a little overrated (even though he did have an absolutely solid year with the Wings in 69-70 on a 1st pairing. He was also playing with ahead of a terrific 2-way forwards unit, and a terrific goalie as well. And I haven't touched character issues, and the fact he got WAY TOO MUCH penalized for a real-life 2nd pairing D-Men (I give lots of weight to PIM's when it comes to defensive play - which can explain my love affair with Bill Quackenbush, Bucko McDonald and Dave Keon, amongst others, unless the player had a notorious 5-10-20-game pattern.)
Bottom-line : Maybe I was wrong when I said the only D-Men who wasn't a 1st pairing guy deserving of a 1st pairing spot in ATD is Tom Johnson. This said, while I view Johnson as a middle-to-low end 1st pairing guy (another way to say it would be that he's a good 2nd D-Men), Brewer is a low-end one. My next comment might be startling to some, but when all things will be over for Sergei Zubov - and I think he still has something between 4 and 6 years of good hockey left - he'll be considered a better D-Men than Carl Brewer.
I don't want fellow GM's to read my comment as the truth. I'm trying to learn about Brewer (Pappyline is somewhat used to me trying to learn something about older players, as I sollicited him a few times about some of my players) and I wanted to show off the negatives about him, so you, fellow GM's, might bring up the positives about him.I absolutely like what he did with Eagleson, though.
Why is Brewer held in so high regards? I mean... fine. He has some AS ( 1 first, 3 second) in relatively few years, was noted as an extremely agile and quick skater...
This said, he did so in one of the weakest eras when it comes to D-Mens (at least, offensively), and I even wonder if he was playing on the 1st unit for the Leafs (in fact, he wasn't). This very reason makes me think he's a little overrated (even though he did have an absolutely solid year with the Wings in 69-70 on a 1st pairing. He was also playing with ahead of a terrific 2-way forwards unit, and a terrific goalie as well. And I haven't touched character issues, and the fact he got WAY TOO MUCH penalized for a real-life 2nd pairing D-Men (I give lots of weight to PIM's when it comes to defensive play - which can explain my love affair with Bill Quackenbush, Bucko McDonald and Dave Keon, amongst others, unless the player had a notorious 5-10-20-game pattern.)
Bottom-line : Maybe I was wrong when I said the only D-Men who wasn't a 1st pairing guy deserving of a 1st pairing spot in ATD is Tom Johnson. This said, while I view Johnson as a middle-to-low end 1st pairing guy (another way to say it would be that he's a good 2nd D-Men), Brewer is a low-end one. My next comment might be startling to some, but when all things will be over for Sergei Zubov - and I think he still has something between 4 and 6 years of good hockey left - he'll be considered a better D-Men than Carl Brewer.
I don't want fellow GM's to read my comment as the truth. I'm trying to learn about Brewer (Pappyline is somewhat used to me trying to learn something about older players, as I sollicited him a few times about some of my players) and I wanted to show off the negatives about him, so you, fellow GM's, might bring up the positives about him.I absolutely like what he did with Eagleson, though.
Carl Brewer's the only defenceman with four all-star team selections not in the HHOF. (Fun time begins in a few years when Rob Blake becomes eligible). I had him in my first draft, and he's a guy I would gladly take on my team again. He wasn't big (5'9"), but he was fearless. Played a robust physical game. Skated very well, and moved the puck. He was stubborn, and not always the most pleasant person to be around, but he was also an exceptional leader. Every hockey player from the O-6 era, and today's NHL, owes a big debt of gratitude to Carl Brewer.
And there was pretty good competition for the Norris. Not 1970s level, or late 80s/early-to-mid 90s level, but pretty good. Pilote and Horton are top 15 defencemen all-time in my books. Gadsby and Harvey were past their primes, and Kelly was at centre, but the competition was still good.
I'll be honest: I'm not a fan of retro-awards - Conn Smythe, Norris, or Selke. They're a nice little supplement, and it's good to know that these guys were reliable defensive forwards. It tells me that Frank Boucher, in addition to his sportsmanlike play and playmaking ability, was really good defensively. But do we know for sure that he was the best defensive forward in the league the year that he was awarded those retroactive Selkes? The same goes for MacKay and Walker. We don't know whether they would have won the Selke in those years. Retroactive Selkes, much like retroactive Norris Trophies and Conn Smythe Trophies, are hypothesis, IMO.
And there was pretty good competition for the Norris. Not 1970s level, or late 80s/early-to-mid 90s level, but pretty good. Pilote and Horton are top 15 defencemen all-time in my books. Gadsby and Harvey were past their primes, and Kelly was at centre, but the competition was still good.
I'll be honest: I'm not a fan of retro-awards - Conn Smythe, Norris, or Selke. They're a nice little supplement, and it's good to know that these guys were reliable defensive forwards. It tells me that Frank Boucher, in addition to his sportsmanlike play and playmaking ability, was really good defensively. But do we know for sure that he was the best defensive forward in the league the year that he was awarded those retroactive Selkes? The same goes for MacKay and Walker. We don't know whether they would have won the Selke in those years. Retroactive Selkes, much like retroactive Norris Trophies and Conn Smythe Trophies, are hypothesis, IMO.
pappyline
Registered User
Some additional comments to what GBC stated.
-Brewer walked away from the NHL at age 27 in 1965 & didn't return to the NHL until 1969He was a AS when he left & he was a AS when he came back. Missing those prime years probably hurts his ratings somewhat.
-During his NHL absence he played for Canada's national team which shows that he was motivated by more than moneyl
-He was an extremely dirty player. He used to cut the palms out of his gloves so he could slip his fingers out & grab an opponent's stick without the ref seeing. He followed the Howe adage of "get them first" but was much better at starting fights than finishing them.
- Toronto had 4 first class D during his era. Horton, Brewer & Stanley all made AS teams. I don't think you could say there was a first & second unit. More like 1a & 1b.
-Surprised you think he doesn't belong in a first pairing in a 28 team draft. He is easily a top 56 defenseman.
-Yes he was a great skater, puckhandler & passer along with the roughness.
MXD
Original #4
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When I meant low-end, that pretty much meant an average 2nd D-Men. No matter how you put this, that makes a low-end 1st pairing guy.
I was a bit referring to the fact he would be close to Niedermayer when it comes to career status... And the AS + "semi-retirement" + AS doesn't make a player a great one == at least, it's what I learned when I tried to bring this point with Alec Connell.
This said... Does anybody thinks that Brewer is extremely alike to Ken Reardon?
Sturminator
Love is a duel
I'll write more later, but I like Carl Brewer next to Seibert and I don't think pappy's D will have any problems, whatsoever, moving the puck. In fact, I think it's one of Guelph's team strengths. The Biltmores don't have any real goalscorers on the blueline, but puckmovers abound.
BM67
Registered User
So were Doug Gilmour, or Ron Francis, the "best defensive forward" in the league when they won the Selke? If you can't think of a bunch of actual winners that are "questionable", then you aren't trying very hard.
Should 7 "Selke" selections by three authors be worth more than Gainey's 4 Selke wins? No, but they can go with the evidence of Walker's shutting down Lalonde and Morenz to show that he didn't just have a couple of decent seasons or playoff series.
I always pictured Brewer being quicker and smoother while Reardon is more of a 'bull in a china shop' type with more physical tools.
For a more modern comparison (though it doesn't do either justice as they were both much better players) I see Brewer as more of a Andrei Markov/Mattias Ohlund strong two-way type while Reardon as more of a Sheldon Souray/Bryan McCabe type.
I have to say, this is probably my favourite series of the draft. Two of my favourite teams with the types of players I really like.
With Seibert, Brewer and Coulter, I think that Guelph has the defenseman to contain the physical top-6 forwards on New Jersey.
Conversely, Niedermayer is the guy I want on the ice when Boucher/Hull are out there. New Jersey may be better off loading up their top pairing to face off against them. Wentworth is a solid enough defenseman that I wouldn't have a problem having him anchor a pairing that would be facing off with Teeder's line.
MXD
Original #4
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Thanks Pits, Sturm, GBC and pappy for sharing me your views on Carl Brewer. It was done stricly on a "learning" motivation.
The Reardon comparision was about the fact they're both good players with sizeable question marks that shouldn't be overlooked. Their ASG nominations are pretty alike as well.
The Reardon comparision was about the fact they're both good players with sizeable question marks that shouldn't be overlooked. Their ASG nominations are pretty alike as well.
Sturminator
Love is a duel
First, I think this is a fantastic matchup and whichever of these teams goes home in the 2nd round is the victim of some pretty rotten luck. I'm almost certain that this series will go to seven games. Ok, breaking it down:
- Coaching:
I give the edge to New Jersey here, though it's not a big one. Both Irvin and Johnson are very good coaches.
- Goaltending:
Again, small edge to New Jersey. Judging by draft position, Lumley is pretty underrated in this draft. Both Rayner and Lumley are on the bottom-tier of ATD starters, and I've got Lumley just a bit better. After Vachon, I think Holmes is the best backup in the league, so there's another edge for New Jersey.
- Skaters:
I won't break down defense vs. defense and forwards vs. forwards or whatnot because teams play against teams, rather than individuals matching up at each position. So I'll just point out some interesting matchups that I see and give my overall impressions at the end.
- Rick MacLeish is going to be an important secondary scorer for New Jersey. MacLeish was actually the playoff scoring leader for those Flyers teams more consistently than Bobby Clarke was, and is underrated on this forum, in my opinion. He's one of the best 4th line scorers in the league and though I think Guelph's 3rd pairing is quite talented, both Sjoberg and Colville are stronger on offense than they are in their own end.
If I was BM, I'd do essentially what we've done in Oakland and split the offensive talent and icetime evenly between the 2nd and 4th lines, maybe by switching Gillies and Muller. Pappy's top two pairings are both very solid in their own end and dropping Gillies weakens the 2nd line, but the 3rd pairing can be exploited, particularly as New Jersey will enjoy home ice advantage (and dictate the matchups) in a potential game seven. Gillies - MacLeish - Dornhoefer becomes a very tough, dangerous 2-way unit that will create matchup problems. Pappy can respond by leaning on his top 4 for more icetime, but he'll pay the price for that with tired legs in game seven.
- Hull/Boucher/Nedomansky vs. New Jersey's top checkers:
Right off the bat, Bobby Hull creates a major coverage problem. Which of New Jersey's right wings is supposed to keep up with the Golden Jet? Bob Nevin? I remember a bit about Nevin, and the player I remember was a solid 2-way guy who could score (and is a fine ATD 3rd liner), but not a defensive specialist or the kind of speed freak you want trying to check Hull. Nevin may be the Devils' best bet among the right wings, but it's not a good bet, in my opinion. Moving Niedermayer up to the top pairing is a good idea because Scott is a great defender in transition and you'll need that against Guelph's top line.
To be honest, I think I'd match first lines if I was BM. Concede that no one is going to check Hull effectively and beat Frank Boucher's head in with the most physically dominant center in history. I don't know about New Jersey's 3rd line against Guelph's 1st line (I agree that Walker and MacKay are fine checking forwards, but the most critical position against the Hull line - RW - is a bit lacking defensively), but I think Olmstead/Lemieux/Iginla/Pronger/Niedermayer vs. Hull/Boucher/Nedomansky/Seibert/Brewer favors New Jersey, and will force Guelph to make up the difference in secondary scoring.
That's all for now. This one's really hard for me to call, and if it looks like I'm saying New Jersey has the advantage, I'm not. I had Guelph and New Jersey 1st and 2nd, respectively, in the regular season standings, so obviously I think this is a close one between two excellent teams.
- Coaching:
I give the edge to New Jersey here, though it's not a big one. Both Irvin and Johnson are very good coaches.
- Goaltending:
Again, small edge to New Jersey. Judging by draft position, Lumley is pretty underrated in this draft. Both Rayner and Lumley are on the bottom-tier of ATD starters, and I've got Lumley just a bit better. After Vachon, I think Holmes is the best backup in the league, so there's another edge for New Jersey.
- Skaters:
I won't break down defense vs. defense and forwards vs. forwards or whatnot because teams play against teams, rather than individuals matching up at each position. So I'll just point out some interesting matchups that I see and give my overall impressions at the end.
- Rick MacLeish is going to be an important secondary scorer for New Jersey. MacLeish was actually the playoff scoring leader for those Flyers teams more consistently than Bobby Clarke was, and is underrated on this forum, in my opinion. He's one of the best 4th line scorers in the league and though I think Guelph's 3rd pairing is quite talented, both Sjoberg and Colville are stronger on offense than they are in their own end.
If I was BM, I'd do essentially what we've done in Oakland and split the offensive talent and icetime evenly between the 2nd and 4th lines, maybe by switching Gillies and Muller. Pappy's top two pairings are both very solid in their own end and dropping Gillies weakens the 2nd line, but the 3rd pairing can be exploited, particularly as New Jersey will enjoy home ice advantage (and dictate the matchups) in a potential game seven. Gillies - MacLeish - Dornhoefer becomes a very tough, dangerous 2-way unit that will create matchup problems. Pappy can respond by leaning on his top 4 for more icetime, but he'll pay the price for that with tired legs in game seven.
- Hull/Boucher/Nedomansky vs. New Jersey's top checkers:
Right off the bat, Bobby Hull creates a major coverage problem. Which of New Jersey's right wings is supposed to keep up with the Golden Jet? Bob Nevin? I remember a bit about Nevin, and the player I remember was a solid 2-way guy who could score (and is a fine ATD 3rd liner), but not a defensive specialist or the kind of speed freak you want trying to check Hull. Nevin may be the Devils' best bet among the right wings, but it's not a good bet, in my opinion. Moving Niedermayer up to the top pairing is a good idea because Scott is a great defender in transition and you'll need that against Guelph's top line.
To be honest, I think I'd match first lines if I was BM. Concede that no one is going to check Hull effectively and beat Frank Boucher's head in with the most physically dominant center in history. I don't know about New Jersey's 3rd line against Guelph's 1st line (I agree that Walker and MacKay are fine checking forwards, but the most critical position against the Hull line - RW - is a bit lacking defensively), but I think Olmstead/Lemieux/Iginla/Pronger/Niedermayer vs. Hull/Boucher/Nedomansky/Seibert/Brewer favors New Jersey, and will force Guelph to make up the difference in secondary scoring.
That's all for now. This one's really hard for me to call, and if it looks like I'm saying New Jersey has the advantage, I'm not. I had Guelph and New Jersey 1st and 2nd, respectively, in the regular season standings, so obviously I think this is a close one between two excellent teams.
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MXD
Original #4
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Game 1
Hull thrives as Lumley and the New Jersey crowd sleeps
The first game of the Don Cherry Semi-Final opposing the New Jersey Devils was a complete no-show from the New Jersey Devils. The crowd even woke up from their usual slumber by booing their guys, especially starting netminder Harry Lumley. Lumley might have not played his best game ever, but he clearly wasn't the only one to blame for the 5-1 loss. Awful defensive coverage and a complete no show from the two top lines from NJ meant the Devils couldn't do much. The Devils D, solid against the Maple Leafs, had their hands full with the Hull - Boucher - Nedomansky line, who scored the five goals for the Biltmores. Bobby Hull was shining in this one, with a hat-trick and a assist, as did Frank Boucher with a 5-assist performance, the best in the playoffs so far.
Guelph wins 5-1 -- Guelph leads 1-0
Game 2
Lemieux answers the call
Coach Irvin, a bit mad at his troops after the awful first game, shook up things a bit when he decided to insert grinder Gary Dornhoefer on the Lemieux line, and to switch the awful Lumley for Hap Holmes. The move paid off, as the Devils Lemieux-ed their way to a 3-1 win against Biltmore. Devils star center answered Hull's hat-trick by one of his own, helped by wingers Olmstead and Dorhoefer, who made a terrific job creating space for Lemieux. Devils goaltender Hap Holmes had one of his easiest games, as his defense played a much more conscious game than the first one. Nevertheless, he let in a softie when Carl Brewer, a little past the red line, released a bouncing wristler that got past Holmes.
New Jersey wins 3-1, Series tied 1-1
Game 3
Seibert and Teeder heroics gives lead to Guelph
If Dick Irvin has some problems with his goaltenders so far, Badger Bob is extremely happy with the (surprising?) Chuck Raynor. Raynor shone once again in game three, as the Devils controlled the game but weren't able to notch more than two goals, from MacKay and Iginla, on 45 shots. Guelph weren't able to create much offensively until the middle of the 3rd, when Petrov was called for an high-sticking call, which led to Lars-Erik Sjoberg PP goal. With 3 minutes left at the 3rd, and double minors to Mohns and Darragh, Bob Nevin was caught hooking Earl Seibert, who rushed with Sid Smith in a 2 vs. the goalie, leading to a penalty shot being awarded to Seibert. Nevin, and everybody else on the Devils squad, probably thought it was a good trade-off, but Seibert sent the Guelph crowd into complete hysteria when he somemanaged to deke Holmes and backhand the puck behind the Devils netminder, sending the game in OT. The crowd went even more ballistic when no one else than Ted Kennedy notched his first goal of the round by deflecting a Nel Colville shot behind Holmes.
Guelph wins 3-2, Guelph leads 2-1
At this point, coach Irvin probably have some problems sleeping. His two goaltenders have been outplayed by Raynor. Granted, Lumley was terrible, but it was indeed the best game from the Hull - Boucher - Nedomansky line, and, to his defense, he got absolutely no help from his defense in that game. Hap Holmes was okay, but let in an absolute softie to Carl Brewer in game 2, and didn't even expect Kennedy's deflection in game 3. Also, allowing a goal on a penalty-shot from Seibert doesn't reflect very well on any goaltender, either. Irvin probably expects more from Gillies - Petrov - Darragh, as well.
Badger Bob, while happy by Raynor's performance, gotta be concerned that his defense gave up so many shots in game 3. Raynor might be playing over his head, but he might not play like this forever. His defense scored three of the last four goals, but he's probably feel better if they would play a better game in their zone. The bottom lines didn't gave him great hockey, and his magnificient Hull - Boucher - Nedomansky line wasn't exactly dominating past game 1.
Hull thrives as Lumley and the New Jersey crowd sleeps
The first game of the Don Cherry Semi-Final opposing the New Jersey Devils was a complete no-show from the New Jersey Devils. The crowd even woke up from their usual slumber by booing their guys, especially starting netminder Harry Lumley. Lumley might have not played his best game ever, but he clearly wasn't the only one to blame for the 5-1 loss. Awful defensive coverage and a complete no show from the two top lines from NJ meant the Devils couldn't do much. The Devils D, solid against the Maple Leafs, had their hands full with the Hull - Boucher - Nedomansky line, who scored the five goals for the Biltmores. Bobby Hull was shining in this one, with a hat-trick and a assist, as did Frank Boucher with a 5-assist performance, the best in the playoffs so far.
Guelph wins 5-1 -- Guelph leads 1-0
Game 2
Lemieux answers the call
Coach Irvin, a bit mad at his troops after the awful first game, shook up things a bit when he decided to insert grinder Gary Dornhoefer on the Lemieux line, and to switch the awful Lumley for Hap Holmes. The move paid off, as the Devils Lemieux-ed their way to a 3-1 win against Biltmore. Devils star center answered Hull's hat-trick by one of his own, helped by wingers Olmstead and Dorhoefer, who made a terrific job creating space for Lemieux. Devils goaltender Hap Holmes had one of his easiest games, as his defense played a much more conscious game than the first one. Nevertheless, he let in a softie when Carl Brewer, a little past the red line, released a bouncing wristler that got past Holmes.
New Jersey wins 3-1, Series tied 1-1
Game 3
Seibert and Teeder heroics gives lead to Guelph
If Dick Irvin has some problems with his goaltenders so far, Badger Bob is extremely happy with the (surprising?) Chuck Raynor. Raynor shone once again in game three, as the Devils controlled the game but weren't able to notch more than two goals, from MacKay and Iginla, on 45 shots. Guelph weren't able to create much offensively until the middle of the 3rd, when Petrov was called for an high-sticking call, which led to Lars-Erik Sjoberg PP goal. With 3 minutes left at the 3rd, and double minors to Mohns and Darragh, Bob Nevin was caught hooking Earl Seibert, who rushed with Sid Smith in a 2 vs. the goalie, leading to a penalty shot being awarded to Seibert. Nevin, and everybody else on the Devils squad, probably thought it was a good trade-off, but Seibert sent the Guelph crowd into complete hysteria when he somemanaged to deke Holmes and backhand the puck behind the Devils netminder, sending the game in OT. The crowd went even more ballistic when no one else than Ted Kennedy notched his first goal of the round by deflecting a Nel Colville shot behind Holmes.
Guelph wins 3-2, Guelph leads 2-1
At this point, coach Irvin probably have some problems sleeping. His two goaltenders have been outplayed by Raynor. Granted, Lumley was terrible, but it was indeed the best game from the Hull - Boucher - Nedomansky line, and, to his defense, he got absolutely no help from his defense in that game. Hap Holmes was okay, but let in an absolute softie to Carl Brewer in game 2, and didn't even expect Kennedy's deflection in game 3. Also, allowing a goal on a penalty-shot from Seibert doesn't reflect very well on any goaltender, either. Irvin probably expects more from Gillies - Petrov - Darragh, as well.
Badger Bob, while happy by Raynor's performance, gotta be concerned that his defense gave up so many shots in game 3. Raynor might be playing over his head, but he might not play like this forever. His defense scored three of the last four goals, but he's probably feel better if they would play a better game in their zone. The bottom lines didn't gave him great hockey, and his magnificient Hull - Boucher - Nedomansky line wasn't exactly dominating past game 1.
Last edited:
raleh
Registered User
ughhh...what's happening here? I want to know who wins.
This must really suck for pappy. At least BM knows the eventual outcome of the series.
This must really suck for pappy. At least BM knows the eventual outcome of the series.
pappyline
Registered User
MXD, Where are youAd
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