ATD#8 Bob Cole Final: #1 Detroit Falcons vs. #2 Nanaimo Clippers

[VanIslander]

The Bob Cole division:

Third Round Match-Up



Detroit Falcons

Coach: Pat Burns
Captain: Milt Schmidt
Alternates: Stan Mikita, Art Ross

Michel Goulet - Stan Mikita - Gordie Drillon
Woody Dumart - Milt Schmidt - Bobby Bauer
Gilles Tremblay - Ralph Backstrom - Claude Provost
John Ferguson - Kenny Mosdell - Mario Tremblay
Lynn Patrick

Jacques Laperriere - Tom Johnson
Art Ross - Jean-Guy Talbot
Ed Van Impe - Glen Harmon
Larry Hillman

Frank Brimsek
Roy Worters
Glenn Resch



vs.



Nanaimo Clippers

Coach: Hap Day
Captain: Hap Day
Alternate Captains: Bobby Orr, Lionel Hitchman

Sweeney Schriner - Joe Primeau - Charlie Conacher
Kevin Stevens - Frank Nighbor - Ed Litzenberger
Dean Prentice - Cooney Weiland - Bobby Rousseau
Hec Kilrea - Glen Skov - Eric Nesterenko
Camille Henry

Bobby Orr - Brad McCrimmon
Lionel Conacher - Hap Day
Gilles Marotte - Lionel Hitchman
Viktor Kuzkin

Clint Benedict
Tom Barrasso
Viktor Konovalenko



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[VanIslander]

Detroit Falcons

PP1: Goulet - Mikita - Drillon - Ross - Johnson
PP2: Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer - Laperriere - Harmon

PK1: Backstrom - Provost - Laperriere - Johnson
PK2: Schmidt - Dumart - Van Impe - Talbot

vs.

Nanaimo Clippers

PP1: Schriner - Primeau - C. Conacher - Orr - Rousseau
PP2: K.Stevens - Nighbor - Litzenberger - L. Conacher - Day

PK1: Weiland - Rousseau - Conacher - McCrimmon
PK2: Skov - Nesterenko - Day - Hitchman

 

[Know Your Enemy]

I think The Falcons' most obvious weekness is their transition game and the limited amount of offense they will get from their defense. I suggest replacing Art Ross with Larry Hillman, or at least move Art Ross down to the 3rd pairing. Art Ross never played in the forward pass era so I can't see him doing an very effective job getting the puck through the Clipper's D. Hillman was effective for the Leafs in this department (I saw a video of the '67 cup final, Hillman was impressive and he seemed to get alot of ice time) so I think he will be a step up from Ross in regards to helping your transition game. You clearly have one of the best defensive squads in the draft so it's important to be able to capitalize on turnovers in the defnsive zone with a more quick transition game, especially against such a superb defensive club like the Clippers. I dont think it would hurt if you placed Hillman on the 2nd pairing, especially if you had him paired with Johnson
Maybe try:
Laperriere-Talbot
Hillman-Johnson
Van Impe-Ross

Maybe there is somthing i'm missing but I just dont think Ross should receive 2nd pairing minutes on this team. I know he has skill, but that can be used on the power-play.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I think the biggest edge in this series is coaching. Hap Day is one of the top five or six coaches of all-time. Burns might be in the top 20. After the top eight-or-so coaches, I think there's a drop-off. Hap Day was a star coach who was the mastermind behind the Leaf teams of the late 40s and early 50s.

Ottawa also has an edge on the blue-line. Any time Bobby Orr enters the discussion, his team should have a blue-line edge. If Nanaimo doesn't have the best-built defence in the draft, they're one of the best. McCrimmon is a fine partner for Orr. Conacher-Day is one of the best No. 2 tandems in the league. (Conacher would also be an ideal partner for Orr). All six defencemen can take care of their own zone.

I'm not worried about Art Ross in a line-up. He played before the forward pass. So what? Doesn't mean he can't do it. Lester Patrick and Harry Cameron played before the forward pass. Would they be able to thrive? Absolutely. Day and King Clancy played before the forward pass, and after the forward pass came into effect. Did it hinder their play? It's an irrelevant argument.

Detroit has a nice, steady defence, but they don't have that truly dominant ace defenceman, like an Orr or a Harvey.

Goaltending is a wash. Brimsek and Benedict are very close on my list.

Detroit's edge is up front. As I said before, it's the best forward unit in the league. One of the best first lines remaining. I like Nanaimo's first line. But I really like Detroit's first line. And it's rare that you'll see a team with a better two-way line than Nanaimo. Detroit's two-way line is the best in the draft, maybe the best since ATD 6, when Murphy had Gainey and Provost on the same line. And you'll never hear me say anything bad about the Krauts. Best second line in the draft. Detroit has three lines that can play against the opposition's best players. If these guys can't stop Kid Line II and Orr, nobody can.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Will add some comments later, but I have a few questions.

EagleBelfour, what is your strategy for containing Orr?

Pitseleh, which forward line and defense pair will you try to match up against each of EB's top two lines?

 

[pitseleh]

Will add some comments later, but I have a few questions.

EagleBelfour, what is your strategy for containing Orr?

Pitseleh, which forward line and defense pair will you try to match up against each of EB's top two lines?

I probably won't have time to do a full analysis for a couple days (once exams are over) but to answer your question:

I think at this point (I'm going to reserve the right to change it ) I like the idea of having the Kilrea-Skov-Nesterenko line on the ice with the Krauts. With Schmidt's size and toughness, I think that Skov presents the toughest matchup for him up the middle. Conacher and Day will likely see the most ice time against them.

As for the Mikita line, the Prentice-Weiland-Rousseau line will likely see a fair bit of time against them. Drillon was a poor defensive player and I don't think Goulet was great either (though correct me if I'm wrong), so I think having them on the ice will force that line to play a fair bit in their own zone. Orr will probably be on the ice quite a bit against this line (to capitalize on the counter attack). At this point I see him on the ice for half the game, so he'll be spending time with both Hitchman and McCrimmon (I think Hitchman will be a good match for containing Drillon's net presence).

With Detroit having home ice advantage, if they decide to try and get away from the matchup, I'm ok going head-to-head against their top line with either of my top-2 lines if that's what it comes down to.

 

[Know Your Enemy]

I I'm not worried about Art Ross in a line-up. He played before the forward pass. So what? Doesn't mean he can't do it. Lester Patrick and Harry Cameron played before the forward pass. Would they be able to thrive? Absolutely. Day and King Clancy played before the forward pass, and after the forward pass came into effect. Did it hinder their play? It's an irrelevant argument.

How good was Art Ross? Does anyone know? I've read that he was an adept puck handler and puck rusher However that's relative to his opponents, and I have questions about how good the NHA was in the 1910's. My specialty is defensemen, but to be honest I havent done enough research on pre-NHL defensemen or that whole era in general. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Under the Falcons circumstance I just wouldn't give 2nd pairing minutes to an anomaly (sort of) who played his whole career not passing forward, especially against the stifilng defense of the Clippers. I wouldnt mind placing him on a 2nd paring with an elite defenseman on a team that doesnt have transition issues, but with the Falcons i'd use his minutes on the power play.

 

[Sturminator]

How good was Art Ross? Does anyone know? I've read that he was an adept puck handler and puck rusher However that's relative to his opponents, and I have questions about how good the NHA was in the 1910's. My specialty is defensemen, but to be honest I havent done enough research on pre-NHL defensemen or that whole era in general.

The forward pass era issue is a pretty broad brush with which to paint criticism. Only concerning this series, you're sucking Frank Nighbor's whole career up, as well (not to mention the fact that Nighbor peaked offensively while still playing in the NHA), and let's not kid ourselves that somehow the forward passing rules only affected defensemen in transition.

The rules change had a big effect on the entire complexion of the game, which had previously centered around skating, stickhandling and drop-passing for offense, but the big scoring stars from before the rules change were the same guys as after the rules change (excepting for the 29-30 outlier). Nels Stewart, Howie Morenz, Frank Boucher, Aurel Joliat, the Cooks, etc...all of these guys made essentially seamless transitions from one form of hockey to the other, which leads me to believe that the change in forward passing rules isn't something that will really affect the top-end offensive talents in the game.

It doesn't appear to have slowed down Clancy at all, so I don't know why we should assume it would change things more for defensemen than for forwards. The biggest difference we see statistically is that assist totals make a big jump across the board, which I think is a result of the introduction of the second assist into the boxscores. Maybe HO can help me out here? The rules changes in 29-30 included the second assist, right?

 

[EagleBelfour]

I'm sorry guys but I won't be able to do this. I have things in my life I need to streighten up. My team will have to function without his GM. I hope we will meet in ATD#9.

 

[Sturminator]

Whatever it is, good luck, Eagle.

 

[BM67]

On forward passing:

In the Stanley Cup matches between the NHA and the PCHA they would alternate between the leagues rules. One rule that a lot of the NHA stars had trouble with was that the PCHA allowed forward passing in the neutral zone. The 29 passing change was to allow forward passing in all zones, and of note across the attacking blueline. Before then you had to carry the puck in.

Not really sure when the NHA/NHL switched to the PCHA passing rule, but you can see that for the most part the game would be unchanged for the D come 29.

One thing about the no forward passing era, you had to be able to stick handle to be able to get into the offensive zone. You had to carry the puck in, and everybody knew it. All 5 skaters could key on the puck carrier. If you couldn't get through 5 guys with the puck... When they say a guy back then could handle the puck, they really meant it, because you had to be able to do it.

 

[pitseleh]

Sorry to hear that EB, hopefully everything works out ok.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Sorry to here that, EB. Hope you can work everything out.

====

According to "The Hockey Compendium" (Jeff Z. Klein & Karl Eric-Reif), the "definition of an assist was modified and made official" in 1932 and was "again modified" in 1934. They don't specify exactly how it was changed.

My understanding was that an assist in hockey, until the mid-1930s, was similar to a modern basketball assist: it's only awarded if it's a pass that directly and immediately results in a basket (goal). Interestingly, though, I remember reading somewhere that there was technically no limit on assists per goal. Some goals actually had three assists! Can somebody else confirm this?

There's a huge increase in assists per goal between 1929 (0.60 apg) and 1933 (1.21 apg), basically rendering all cross-season statistical records meaningless in a span of just four years. Today's it around 1.7 apg. So in addition to playing a short schedule with low levels of offense, old-time stars are further hurt by not having the opportunity to record a significant number of assists.

 

[BM67]

In Stan Fischler's Hockey Encyclopedia where I was looking at the goals and assists in the Stanley Cup Finals there were 3 goals with 3 assists in the 35-36 Final, 2 for Toronto and 1 for Detroit. That's the only time I've seen it.

 

[pitseleh]

Sorry I haven't had more time to comment on stuff, exams have been taking it out on me. I was supposed to be done on Friday but a snow closure last week bumped my last exam to Monday.

Why I think we'll win:

- Both teams have good collections of two-way forwards and good goaltending (though I give a slight nod to Benedict). However, the main difference are the defenses and coaching. I feel I have a substantial edge in defensive talent (with Orr and Conacher compared to Laperriere and Johnson) at the top-end, and they will help carry the team both offensively and defensively. Day is also a significant upgrade on Burns, and with our teams being tight, I feel that a coaching edge may decide the series.

- Though Detroit has the edge in terms of scoring from their top-6, I think that Detroit may lack the transition game from their defense to take advantage of that.

- Orr. Having a game breaking generational talent like Orr should make a significant difference. Mikita and Schmidt were fantastic players, but Orr is on another level. Again, with our teams close, this is an advantage that we should be able to exploit.

 

[Sturminator]

- Though Detroit has the edge in terms of scoring from their top-6, I think that Detroit may lack the transition game from their defense to take advantage of that.

I disagree that Detroit lacks in transitional offense from the blueline. All four of Johnson, Laperriere, Ross and Talbot were very good passers in transition, while Glen Harmon is an elite 3rd pairing defenseman. Detroit doesn't have any real goal-scorers from the blueline, but they certainly have defensemen who can skate and move the puck up ice quickly.

 

[ck26]

Ralph Backstrom and Cooney Weiland are two of the most offensively-minded 3C's in the draft, to the point that Weiland doesn't even really fit the mold of 3C.

Detroit's bottom 6 is awesome. Just awesome. Provost and Ferguson especially.

It's hard to vote against Benedict's playoff record. And it's hard to vote against Bobby Orr just in general. But Laperierre / Johnson is as good as a duo as you can ask for.

Mikita / Schmidt Primeau / Nighbor is an impressive quartet. That whole Nanaimo first line + Orr looks almost impossible to stop.

 

[Know Your Enemy]

I disagree that Detroit lacks in transitional offense from the blueline. All four of Johnson, Laperriere, Ross and Talbot were very good passers in transition, while Glen Harmon is an elite 3rd pairing defenseman. Detroit doesn't have any real goal-scorers from the blueline, but they certainly have defensemen who can skate and move the puck up ice quickly.

I'd like to see a resource confirming that Ross was a good passer in transition or else I just can't believe that statment. The other 3, especially Laperriere, were good passers. However in an All-time context, I don't think they compare well to most of the other teams in the draft. Historically these 3 defensemen were primarily used to protect their own zone, but now they are supposed to be the go to guys in all aspects So I'm just not sure that they will all be able to take their game to that new level and lead the Falcons to victory.

I'd call Harmon a good 3rd pairing defenseman, but not elite. Most of his success came against weak competition. One of his 2nd all-star team selections was during the war, and the other was in 1949 when no elite defensemen (with the exception of Quackenbush) were healthy or in their prime. Also his most productive offensive season (points wise) placed him only 9th among defensemen. If you look at the two seasons when he did place higher than 9th, you'd find that he didn't have to overcome any great offensive players.

 

[pitseleh]

I'd like to see a resource conmfirming that Ross was a good passer in transition or els I just can't believe that statment. The other 3, especially Laperriere, were good passers. However in an All-time context, I dont think they compare well to most of the other teams in the draft. Historically these 3 defensemen were primarily used to protect their own zone, but now they are supposed to be the go to guys in all aspects So I'm just not sure they will do an effective enough job at that to lead the Falcons to victory.

That's what I was thinking with respect to their passing game as well. They were good passers for their time, but in an ATD, Detroit's blueline doesn't have the same level of catalysis from their blueline that most teams have, and that's a weakness, IMO.

It's not like I'm trying to say that they have a bunch of Wade Belak's or Aki Berg's.

 

[Know Your Enemy]

I wouldnt be surprised if this turns out to be the lowest scoring series in ATD history. We're looking at two of the best defensive teams in the draft here.
The Clippers have a great all-around defensive team with one of the best defensive coaches in hockey history, but Detroit also has a good enough team defense to do a good job at containing Orr and his somwhat unspectacular offensive supporting cast. Goaltending is also a wash in my opinion.
The big problem with Detroit is that they don't have that elite offensive catalyst from the back end that would give them a chance to penetrate a rock solid defense like Nanimo's. That's why I think Nanaimo wins this close series.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Ralph Backstrom and Cooney Weiland are two of the most offensively-minded 3C's in the draft, to the point that Weiland doesn't even really fit the mold of 3C.

I agree that Weiland isn't a conventional third-line centre (and is obviously at a disadvantage if we compare him to Backstrom), but I think he can get the job done playing with two very good two-way wingers.

He was described as an "adept penalty killer" by Legends of Hockey and earned a spot on the year-end all-star team in 1935 despite finishing outside of the top ten scorers on a non-playoff team (which could imply he had a better defensive game than other higher scoring centres like Barry and Stewart).

Weiland was described by author S. Kip Farrington as:

"a great face-off man, one of the best I've ever seen. He was also--like Hooley Smith and Frank Nighbor--an excellent three-way stick checker. He was a master of the poke, sweep and hook check"

That said, Detroit still has the best two defensive forwards in this series.

 

[Sturminator]

I'd like to see a resource confirming that Ross was a good passer in transition or else I just can't believe that statment.

Art Ross was considered one of the top offensive defensemen of his generation. I can only assume that he was a pretty good passer. Of course forward passing rules in his era certainly changed the complexion of the game, but a guy like Ross who was known for his offensive skills isn't one of the players I'd question in terms of being able to adapt to the modern game.

To be honest, I think Ross went pretty early in the 6th round. Compared to other defensemen of roughly his era, I would not take him before Hod Stuart or Harry Cameron (Ross' career sits sort of in-between Stuart and Cameron's times), and I'm not entirely sure he was a better overall player than Si Griffis. So Art Ross the 6th rounder doesn't really thrill me, but I think it's pretty uncharitable to assume that one of the best offensive defensemen of his generation wasn't a good passer without more information. I'll try to find something.

You're right that I may have overrated Harmon. I didn't look at his strength of competition nearly as thoroughly as you did. Detroit certainly doesn't have high-end offensive talent from the blueline, but I did think it was worth pointing out that they do have good passers and a fair amount of passing depth, to boot. Eagle basically drafted a bunch of 2-way defensemen and didn't really take any stud offensive guys, though - that is certainly true.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Game 1: Milt Schmidt sets the tone early, laying out Bobby Orr with a serious open ice hit. And that's the story of the game, Schmidt hits Orr, Tremblay hits Orr, Tremblay hits Orr, Laperriere hits Orr, Talbot hits Orr, Van Impe hits Orr... I'm pretty sure Burns even takes a shot at him. Orr is resilient, he never lets the attention get him down, but it is seriously effecting his ability to posses the puck. Mikita gets a pair.

Detroit wins game 1 2-0 for a 1-0 series lead.

Game 2: Day mixes things up and puts Lionel Conacher with Bobby Orr to try and give Orr some room and protection. Early in the first, Schmidt goes high, possibly leaving his feet when he pastes Orr into the end boards while forechecking. Conacher is immediately on the scene, and a fight breaks out between Schmidt and the Big Train. Lionel wins it easily. But this doesn't make things easier for Orr, with his enforcer off for 5, Ferguson acts with impunity, hitting Orr with a cruel knee on knee. Orr is escorted off on a stretcher while Ferguson is by the linesmen. The attack has the opposite effect Ferguson planned. Nanaimo is fired up to defend their fallen leader. Nighbor, Charlie Conacher and Litzenberger add goals, while Dumart pots one for Detroit.

Nanaimo wins game 2 3-1 to tie the series 1-1.

Game 3: Ferguson is suspended for the next three games. Orr is sitting on the bench, but is not on the starting line. The game is a tight defensive fair, with Brimsek and Benedict stealing the show. Orr is kept on the bench, Nanaimo running a short bench. Late in the 2nd, faceoff in Detroits goal, Orr taps Day on the shoulder, Day nods and summons Hitchman. Primeau wins the faceoff, back to Orr...BOOM! One timer goal. Orr takes a few shifts and plays conservatively in the third.

Nanaimo wins game 3 1-0 to take a 2-1 series lead.

Game 4: Orr assured the media that he's 100 percent healthy, but Vegas isn't convinced. Wrong call. Right off the bat, Orr takes the puck, undresses Dumart like a virgin on his honeymoon, give and go with Schriner leaves Schmidt in Orr's dust...Orr slides across the faceoff circle, teasing a wrist shot, pass to Conacher at the side of the net...GOAL! Orr continues to lay it on think, but Brimsek is up to the task. goals by Mikita and Schmidt give Detroit the lead. But Orr's having none of that, tying it up with a PK goal. Weiland adds a goal to prevent the game from going to overtime.

Nanaimo wins game 4 3-2 to take a 3-1 series lead.

Game 5: Orr continues to control the pace of the game, but Detroit's thorough defensive game plan keeps him off the score sheet. Schmidt sets up Bauer and Orr sets up Rousseau. Benedict and Brimsek shut things down and send things to overtime. Resting the top lines, Detroit sends out the Mosdell line, Day capitalizes by rushing out Orr with the Primeau line. most of the Mosdell line changes for the Mikita line, but Patrick is pinned on the ice. Mikita steals the puck, intercepting an Orr to Schriner pass. He takes the zone, cycles, passes to Lynn Patrick, who fires a shot with the grace of a 1st liner...GOAL! Patrick, who wouldn't have dressed without the Ferguson suspension, is the overtime hero.

Detroit wins game 5 2-1 in OT to make the series 3-2 for Nanaimo.

Game 6: Nanaimo with a chance to clinch at home and Orr is going to do everything in his power to do it. He gets an early goal before Detroit can properly lock down. Late in the 2nd, Dumart ties it up from a beauty Schmidt pass. Defensive battle until midway through the third. Orr leading the rush. Orr to Nighbor, intercepted by Mikita, Orr strips Mikita. Pass to Stevens, back to Orr, one timer...STOPPED BY BRIMSEK! Litzenberger gets the rebound, tries to jam it home, can't, flicks it behind him, Orr get it, fake, deke, fake, shot...GOAL!

Nanaimo wins game 6 2-1 to win the series 4-2.




The Nanaimo Clippers defeat the Detroit Falcons in 6 games.



Three Stars:
1st: Bobby Orr
2nd: Milt Schmidt
3rd: Stan Mikita

 

[pitseleh]

I definitely thought this was a seven gamer. It was too bad that EB could be around for the discussions. You put together a great team and I expect the same next time around.