ATD 2017 Assassination Thread
- Thread starter jarek
- Start date
jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
- 10,004
- 238
Toronto Maple Austons
Coach: Tommy Ivan
Captain: Eddie Gerard
Assistant Captains: Bob Nevin, Maurice Richard
Aurele Joliat - Joe Thornton - Maurice Richard
Zach Parise - Norm Ullman - Andy Bathgate
Boris Mayorov - Vyacheslav Starshinov - Bob Nevin
Joe Klukay - Doug Jarvis - Cully Wilson
Spares: Albert Kerr, LW, Rick MacLeish, C/LW, Ken Wharram, RW
NOTE: Ivan reserves the right to form a line of Klukay - Jarvis - Nevin in such a case where a pure checking line is required.
Art Ross - Eddie Gerard
Ryan Suter - Drew Doughty
Ted Harris - Doug Mohns
Spares: Keith Magnuson
Roy Worters
Gump Worsley
PP1: Ullman - Thornton - Richard - Mohns - Bathgate
PP2: Joliat - Starshinov - Mayorov - Suter - Ross
PP spares: Doughty, Parise
PK1: Jarvis - Klukay - Harris - Gerard
PK2: Ullman - Nevin - Suter - Doughty
PK spares: Mohns, Joliat, Starshinov
Forward Minutes
Player
|
ES
|
PP
|
PK
|
Total
Maurice Richard | 15 | 5 | 0 | 20
Andy Bathgate | 15 | 5 | 0 | 20
Aurele Joliat | 15 | 3 | 0 | 18
Joe Thornton | 13 | 5 | 0 | 18
Norm Ullman | 13 | 4 | 1 | 18
Bob Nevin | 10 | 0 | 4 | 14
Vyacheslav Starshinov | 12 | 2 | 0 | 14
Boris Mayorov | 12 | 2 | 0 | 14
Joe Klukay | 8 | 0 | 5 | 13
Doug Jarvis | 8 | 0 | 4 | 12
Zach Parise | 11 | 0 | 0 | 11
Cully Wilson| 6 | 0 | 0 | 6
Joliat will take some shifts in Parise's place on the 2nd line.
Richard will take some shifts in Wilson's place for offensive and occasional neutral zone draws.
Bathgate will take some shifts in Nevin's place for offensive and occasional neutral zone draws.
Defensemen Minutes
Player
|
ES
|
PP
|
PK
|
Total
Eddie Gerard | 19 | 0 | 4 | 23
Art Ross | 19 | 2 | 0 | 21
Drew Doughty | 18 | 0 | 3 | 21
Ryan Suter | 16 | 2 | 3 | 21
Doug Mohns | 12 | 5 | 0 | 17
Ted Harris | 8 | 0 | 4 | 12
Bathgate will be manning the right point on the 1st PP unit.
Coach: Tommy Ivan
Captain: Eddie Gerard
Assistant Captains: Bob Nevin, Maurice Richard
Aurele Joliat - Joe Thornton - Maurice Richard
Zach Parise - Norm Ullman - Andy Bathgate
Boris Mayorov - Vyacheslav Starshinov - Bob Nevin
Joe Klukay - Doug Jarvis - Cully Wilson
Spares: Albert Kerr, LW, Rick MacLeish, C/LW, Ken Wharram, RW
NOTE: Ivan reserves the right to form a line of Klukay - Jarvis - Nevin in such a case where a pure checking line is required.
Art Ross - Eddie Gerard
Ryan Suter - Drew Doughty
Ted Harris - Doug Mohns
Spares: Keith Magnuson
Roy Worters
Gump Worsley
PP1: Ullman - Thornton - Richard - Mohns - Bathgate
PP2: Joliat - Starshinov - Mayorov - Suter - Ross
PP spares: Doughty, Parise
PK1: Jarvis - Klukay - Harris - Gerard
PK2: Ullman - Nevin - Suter - Doughty
PK spares: Mohns, Joliat, Starshinov
Forward Minutes
Maurice Richard | 15 | 5 | 0 | 20
Andy Bathgate | 15 | 5 | 0 | 20
Aurele Joliat | 15 | 3 | 0 | 18
Joe Thornton | 13 | 5 | 0 | 18
Norm Ullman | 13 | 4 | 1 | 18
Bob Nevin | 10 | 0 | 4 | 14
Vyacheslav Starshinov | 12 | 2 | 0 | 14
Boris Mayorov | 12 | 2 | 0 | 14
Joe Klukay | 8 | 0 | 5 | 13
Doug Jarvis | 8 | 0 | 4 | 12
Zach Parise | 11 | 0 | 0 | 11
Cully Wilson| 6 | 0 | 0 | 6
Joliat will take some shifts in Parise's place on the 2nd line.
Richard will take some shifts in Wilson's place for offensive and occasional neutral zone draws.
Bathgate will take some shifts in Nevin's place for offensive and occasional neutral zone draws.
Defensemen Minutes
Eddie Gerard | 19 | 0 | 4 | 23
Art Ross | 19 | 2 | 0 | 21
Drew Doughty | 18 | 0 | 3 | 21
Ryan Suter | 16 | 2 | 3 | 21
Doug Mohns | 12 | 5 | 0 | 17
Ted Harris | 8 | 0 | 4 | 12
Bathgate will be manning the right point on the 1st PP unit.
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One of the more attractive entries for me this year, it became obvious pretty early on in the draft that this club was going to have an extremely strong top 6 group of forwards. You'd wish to see better than Zach Parise to close out the group, but he's not too bad, and he gets to work with a couple phenom linemates.
1st line:
Incredibly dominant personnel that had questions about chemistry between Thornton and Richard which I don't really care for. They are so good offensively, they'll make it work. Joliat is an incredibly luxurious glue LW here which he will have no problem patrolling both ways for this line. For me, one of my fav. top lines in the league.
2nd line:
As I mentioned earlier a really strong 2nd line duo here with Ullman-Bathgate feeding off each other. Parise has every tool to be a glue player, however his resume seems pretty weak for a 25 team 2nd liner. The pieces mesh well together, and Bathgate should have the green light to really get on the attack against secondary competition.
3rd line:
I'm honestly puzzled by the third line. Not familiar with Mayorov in the slightest even though he's a name that comes up every draft. Starshinov is very physical and score in the slot, but doesn't seem like a credible defensive centreman at this level. Withh better info on Mayorov maybe I could feel more confident in this unit, you will need to inform me there.
4th line:
Responsible checking line that will get spot checking duty by the coaching staff, but offers no scoring threat.
Defense:
Another reason folks may have followed this entry closer than others was because jarek waited longer than most to start contructing the core of the defense. This top pair has fine chemistry and some talent, but they are certainly among the weaker top pairs from a talent perspective. Seems like Ross will try to push the puck and help get the attack going with Gerard staying at home and making fine passes - but it seems like the roles could easily be reversed as well.
Fine second pairing with two of the better current defenseman going, Ryan Suter and Drew Doughty. Neither of them is anything special as a puck mover in a top four at this level, but neither are a liability and both at least have some mix of offense and defense.
Really liked the aquisition of Mohns. An incredibly strong #5 who can step into the top four without problem.
Goaltending:
Pretty good duo here with Worsley a strong playoff performer who can step in if Shrimp is getting light-up. Worters is certainly a below average starter.
Coaching:
My Head Coach from last year. Ivan is great all-around coach, who guys like Bathgate and Richard will absolutely love playing for.
Overall:
This is a roster with a lot of sizzle. Great top 6 forwards, a coach who knows what he's doing and will get the most out of them. Obviously, the biggest question mark is your top pair on defense. Art Ross is a lot harder to buy than Eddie Gerard. None the less, a fine entry that I will look forward to seeing where it advances to this year.
jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
- 10,004
- 238
Alright, I'll go ahead and set the table for self assassinations. We'll see how it goes from here I guess.
We'll start at the top. In a vacuum, Tommy Ivan is somewhere between 5th-10th if you were to rank coaches, but the fit with this particular group of players should be outstanding. There is offensive and defensive balance through nearly every line except the 4th. He doesn't have the services of a Red Kelly to move the puck from the defense to the forwards, but otherwise it should be nearly perfect.
I really have no idea how to rank leaders, but this group appears to be pretty good. Gerard's leadership is something he was famous for, and Nevin was called the best captain he ever dealt with by Red Sullivan. Richard kind of just fits in as the default due to his stature. That the players voted for him as the captain does speak a lot about his leadership abilities, although I reckon that had more to do with his play on the ice.
Admittedly I haven't looked into it too deeply but I'd be surprised if this wasn't competing for the best offensive 1st line in the draft. Part of the reason is that all three players bring strong offensive qualities, but the important thing is that not much is given up in terms of defense to get it. Joliat is obviously the defensive conscience of the line, and even if he gets caught deep in the offensive zone, he has the speed to back up the defense should the puck get turned over. I don't expect the same kind of defensive commitment from the other two, but I reckon they'll be competitive in the defensive zone, at the very least providing some support for the defensemen instead of waiting until the puck gets retrieved to receive breakout passes. I'm not sure how important this will be as I expect this line to play in the offensive zone most of the time against the types of lines they'll end up playing against.
In the offensive zone, there's enough skill here to play a skill game but there's enough ingredients here to play a strong cycling game as well. Joliat's size will be an issue in this respect, so he'll need to rely more on cleverness with the stick to strip opposing players of the puck, but Thornton has been one of the most dominant players along the boards of our generation, and I'm not that sure about Richard but his doggedness suggests he should be able to excel along the boards as well.
All in all, I feel this is a very well put together line that will be one of the major strengths of the team.
This line now I am certain must be the best 2nd line in the draft offensively. I had the choice of boosting that strength by taking an Alexandrov or Patrick, but I really felt Parise's complete game just makes the line far more functional. This line doesn't need to be sheltered the way it would if poor Norm Ullman was the only one who would backcheck.
By not doing that, I've created a line that should be able to not only dominate the skill game, but excel along the boards as well. Ullman was noted as one of the best forecheckers of his era, and we should all know about Parise's compete level in every aspect of the game. Bathgate, while he doesn't go out looking for trouble, is no shrinking violet himself - he can take care of himself along the boards.
I'm not shy about saying that this quite possibly is the best assembled line I've ever had, and is probably the biggest strength of the team.
My take on the dominant Spartak line of the 60's, and one of my favorite lines I've ever built. The Mayorov - Starshinov chemistry is there, and they get a great upgrade at RW with Bob Nevin instead of Boris's brother, Yevgeny. I am a little disappointed in the offense that I can expect from this line, however. If we look just at VsX scores using seventies' Soviet equivalency formula, it comes out to 69.4, 78.4, and ~58. If we want to look at ES scoring for Nevin, he comes out at 72.4, but that isn't quite fair because that would assume Mayorov and Starshinov scored everything at ES, which obviously can't be true. So, I expect the 69, 78, 58 to be pretty accurate. I'm not sure exactly how that would compare with other 3rd lines in this league, but I don't expect it to be much better than average.
What this line really has in spades is physicality and defense to go along with respectable offense. It is a legitimate two-way line that can be used against other teams' best lines that don't have dominant right wingers (good luck in my division
). There is always the option to throw Joe Klukay to the LW and move Mayorov down to form a line that can be used as a shutdown line with some counter attack potential, although that potential might be limited because the majority of the playmaking ability rests with Mayorov.
Just a solid 4th line that won't hurt me and can be turned into a very strong shutdown unit if Nevin is moved down to the RW. Between Klukay and Wilson, this line will rely heavily on forechecking to keep the puck in the opposition end of the ice to kill time and try to get my better lines out against a tired unit. Wilson probably won't be able to do much scoring on his own, but he does add a legit offensive option for a 4th line.
They're spares, what can I say? MacLeish is well rounded enough that he should be able to fill in for any center that gets hurt throughout the season. Hull and Wharram are little more than scorers, but they bring a strong level of competitiveness and work ethic, so I also expect them to be able to adequately fill in for any player on their respective wings.
Just as a reminder.
OVERALL FORWARDS
This is a rock solid group from top-to-bottom with no obvious holes. Will provide excellent support for the defense, while still being very strong in the offensive zone. All lines with the exception of the 4th line capable of playing both a skill game and a cycle game.
Of particular note is that each line has at least one guy who can explode out of the zone with the puck to start a breakout once the puck is retrieved (Joliat and Richard on 1st line, Bathgate on 2nd line, Mayorov on 3rd line, Klukay on 4th line). This will be very important for my team's transition game as there is legit concern about my defense group's ability to break out.
There's no sugar coating this, this is a brutal 1st pairing that features an extremely low end #1 and an extremely low end #2. One thing I do want to point out, however, is that the vast majority of #1 defensemen are such because they provide both an elite level of both offense AND defense. Gerard's offense would be middling even on a 2nd pairing, but there should be very few that are better than him defensively. He was said to be better defensively than even Cleghorn.
I didn't want my 1st pairing to be of the offense-defense kind of style, so I took Art Ross because from what I can tell, he brings a two-way game to the table, although tilted more towards offense. Still, even for a 2nd pairing he doesn't stand out much offensively according to the numbers. Both of these guys, however, are noted as good stick handlers so perhaps the offense underrates their ability to move the puck. Either way, they will rely tremendously on support from their forwards to move the puck up the ice, and perhaps even defensively as well.. both of which will happen with this group.
It doesn't look pretty on paper, but I do believe with great help from the forwards, the job should get done more often than not.
I make up for the worst 1st pairing in ATD history to perhaps the best 2nd pairing in ATD history. Maybe.
Here we have an excellent #3 and an excellent #4. For whatever reason Doughty can't score, however, Kevin Shattenkirk has high praise for his ability to get creative with handling the puck. Suter's offense is fairly good for a 2nd pairing based on the numbers, but I do think purely in terms of offensive talent, Doughty is better than him.. the Kings just don't score enough for that to come through in the numbers.
What this pairing does provide is immaculate defense. Of the current group of active defensemen, it really doesn't get any better than this. They don't bring the elite possession of an Erik Karlsson, but I'm not sure there's anyone else I'd want defending the zone.
Much of the concerns of the 1st pair should be alleviated with this pair, who have a history of playing huge minutes in real life. They should be able to more than adequately play those extra minutes the 1st pair won't.
Continuing with the excellent defensive depth, we have a good to great #4 in the #5 spot, and a strong #6. They'll play quite a bit more than the average 3rd pair, and they'll need to. I may even need to bump up their minutes a little more. Mohns, being the best offensive defenseman I have, should be able to ravage most lower units that he'll be up against when he does get the puck, and Harris is just your traditional, solid, steady stay-at-home guy.
Just a solid spare in my mind. Nothing too fancy. I don't expect too many injuries on my defense. Maybe Mohns might miss a few games but that shouldn't impact things too badly.
OVERALL DEFENSE
Issues on the 1st unit, and big ones. I think Gerard, defensively, is fine, but Ross might get exposed from time to time. The strong support the defense can expect from the forwards should help to mitigate this substantially. The biggest issue would be if Ross is the only man back on a 2-on-1 for example, but with this group of players this shouldn't be happening very often.
Otherwise, the defense from 3-6 should be among the best in the draft, if not the best.
One potential issue, and a legit one, is there is a lack of numbers-based evidence to support the idea that this group, overall, will be able to move the puck well. There is good anecdotal support for both Doughty and Ross being able to stickhandle, while Gerard was noted as a good stickhandler by LoH, though I'm not sure why. They will definitely need strong support from the forwards in order to exit the zone, which they will get.
Roy Worters could possibly be underrated as most of the goalies ranked in front of him combined both excellent regular season play and post-season play. Worters, having at best an incomplete post-season record, has only his regular season resume to go by, and Hart voting suggests there weren't too many better than him there. Worsley will be one of the best backups in this league, thus giving my starter more rest than most will get without severely impacting the quality of the netminding. If Worters should be seen as not being able to get it done in the post-season, Worsley has the track record to step in and play well.
From a skill perspective, I'm not sure it gets much better than this for a 1st PP unit. There isn't an obvious net crasher here, though I think Ullman should be able to fill that role well enough. The catch though is that there should be enough skill here that they shouldn't really need that.
Drafting Bathgate is part of the reason why I felt I was able to get away with not getting that strong #1 defenseman. While his offense shouldn't be taken at face value while playing the point most likely, he should still be one of the better #1 PP guys, and his playmaking abilities make him an ideal QB for the PP. That he and Mohns both have good shots only helps matters.
As I mentioned, I was disappointed by the offense I am getting from the Mayorov - Starshinov combo, so this unit won't be as good as I had hoped. Additionally, while numbers suggest Suter is a good candidate as a #2 PP guy, he's a very bad shooter from what I've read. Apparently he has the problem of always getting his shots blocked, so we'll need to rely on Ross for most of the point shots.
Still, even if there isn't quite as much skill as I had hoped, Starshinov will do well just making things miserable for both the goalie and the defensemen in front of the net, so that'll help the shots that do get through to the goalie.
I do wonder though if this unit will get stuck in "too-much-passing" syndrome. There's a lot of playmaking here but not that much goalscoring aside from Starshinov. Ross was known to be selfish at times and I'll probably need him to be when this unit is out. Joliat is also a lot more balanced than people generally give him credit for so there is that as well.
Really nothing to say about these guys.
Jarvis and Klukay on a 1st PK unit should be among the best I would think. Harris is there simply to contend with guys like Howe and Kerr in my division who will attempt to abuse their way into getting goals. I have absolutely no idea if he'll be overmatched in this regard. It's possible. I'll be needing my forwards to do a good job of preventing point shots to mitigate this potentiality, which they should be excellent at. Jarvis especially was known for his anticipation and ability to intercept passes on the PK.
I'd have liked to do better than Ullman but I see no reason to think he won't be a good PK'er on a 2nd unit. Nevin is good enough to be on a 1st unit so that will offset things. To be honest, with the way my PK minutes are being handled, I expect Ullman simply to take the draws and when possible, to change right away. He'll probably get stuck out there for a bit at times, which is where the 1 minute per game is reflected. The majority of the PK time is going to Jarvis, Klukay and Nevin.
All guys who should be good enough to fill in when necessary but not enough to be seen as primary options.
This doesn't seem too unreasonable but let me know if you guys see any issues.
Again, nothing should be too crazy here.
OVERALL IMPRESSIONS
This is honestly the best team I've ever built, both in terms of construction and how the team functions as a whole. I really hope everyone else sees it that way as I believe this team should be a strong contender for the championship!
------------
Let me know what you guys think, and of course I am happy to receive comments and criticisms, which I will respond to for sure!
We'll start at the top. In a vacuum, Tommy Ivan is somewhere between 5th-10th if you were to rank coaches, but the fit with this particular group of players should be outstanding. There is offensive and defensive balance through nearly every line except the 4th. He doesn't have the services of a Red Kelly to move the puck from the defense to the forwards, but otherwise it should be nearly perfect.
I really have no idea how to rank leaders, but this group appears to be pretty good. Gerard's leadership is something he was famous for, and Nevin was called the best captain he ever dealt with by Red Sullivan. Richard kind of just fits in as the default due to his stature. That the players voted for him as the captain does speak a lot about his leadership abilities, although I reckon that had more to do with his play on the ice.
Admittedly I haven't looked into it too deeply but I'd be surprised if this wasn't competing for the best offensive 1st line in the draft. Part of the reason is that all three players bring strong offensive qualities, but the important thing is that not much is given up in terms of defense to get it. Joliat is obviously the defensive conscience of the line, and even if he gets caught deep in the offensive zone, he has the speed to back up the defense should the puck get turned over. I don't expect the same kind of defensive commitment from the other two, but I reckon they'll be competitive in the defensive zone, at the very least providing some support for the defensemen instead of waiting until the puck gets retrieved to receive breakout passes. I'm not sure how important this will be as I expect this line to play in the offensive zone most of the time against the types of lines they'll end up playing against.
In the offensive zone, there's enough skill here to play a skill game but there's enough ingredients here to play a strong cycling game as well. Joliat's size will be an issue in this respect, so he'll need to rely more on cleverness with the stick to strip opposing players of the puck, but Thornton has been one of the most dominant players along the boards of our generation, and I'm not that sure about Richard but his doggedness suggests he should be able to excel along the boards as well.
All in all, I feel this is a very well put together line that will be one of the major strengths of the team.
This line now I am certain must be the best 2nd line in the draft offensively. I had the choice of boosting that strength by taking an Alexandrov or Patrick, but I really felt Parise's complete game just makes the line far more functional. This line doesn't need to be sheltered the way it would if poor Norm Ullman was the only one who would backcheck.
By not doing that, I've created a line that should be able to not only dominate the skill game, but excel along the boards as well. Ullman was noted as one of the best forecheckers of his era, and we should all know about Parise's compete level in every aspect of the game. Bathgate, while he doesn't go out looking for trouble, is no shrinking violet himself - he can take care of himself along the boards.
I'm not shy about saying that this quite possibly is the best assembled line I've ever had, and is probably the biggest strength of the team.
My take on the dominant Spartak line of the 60's, and one of my favorite lines I've ever built. The Mayorov - Starshinov chemistry is there, and they get a great upgrade at RW with Bob Nevin instead of Boris's brother, Yevgeny. I am a little disappointed in the offense that I can expect from this line, however. If we look just at VsX scores using seventies' Soviet equivalency formula, it comes out to 69.4, 78.4, and ~58. If we want to look at ES scoring for Nevin, he comes out at 72.4, but that isn't quite fair because that would assume Mayorov and Starshinov scored everything at ES, which obviously can't be true. So, I expect the 69, 78, 58 to be pretty accurate. I'm not sure exactly how that would compare with other 3rd lines in this league, but I don't expect it to be much better than average.
What this line really has in spades is physicality and defense to go along with respectable offense. It is a legitimate two-way line that can be used against other teams' best lines that don't have dominant right wingers (good luck in my division
). There is always the option to throw Joe Klukay to the LW and move Mayorov down to form a line that can be used as a shutdown line with some counter attack potential, although that potential might be limited because the majority of the playmaking ability rests with Mayorov.Just a solid 4th line that won't hurt me and can be turned into a very strong shutdown unit if Nevin is moved down to the RW. Between Klukay and Wilson, this line will rely heavily on forechecking to keep the puck in the opposition end of the ice to kill time and try to get my better lines out against a tired unit. Wilson probably won't be able to do much scoring on his own, but he does add a legit offensive option for a 4th line.
They're spares, what can I say? MacLeish is well rounded enough that he should be able to fill in for any center that gets hurt throughout the season. Hull and Wharram are little more than scorers, but they bring a strong level of competitiveness and work ethic, so I also expect them to be able to adequately fill in for any player on their respective wings.
Just as a reminder.
OVERALL FORWARDS
This is a rock solid group from top-to-bottom with no obvious holes. Will provide excellent support for the defense, while still being very strong in the offensive zone. All lines with the exception of the 4th line capable of playing both a skill game and a cycle game.
Of particular note is that each line has at least one guy who can explode out of the zone with the puck to start a breakout once the puck is retrieved (Joliat and Richard on 1st line, Bathgate on 2nd line, Mayorov on 3rd line, Klukay on 4th line). This will be very important for my team's transition game as there is legit concern about my defense group's ability to break out.
There's no sugar coating this, this is a brutal 1st pairing that features an extremely low end #1 and an extremely low end #2. One thing I do want to point out, however, is that the vast majority of #1 defensemen are such because they provide both an elite level of both offense AND defense. Gerard's offense would be middling even on a 2nd pairing, but there should be very few that are better than him defensively. He was said to be better defensively than even Cleghorn.
I didn't want my 1st pairing to be of the offense-defense kind of style, so I took Art Ross because from what I can tell, he brings a two-way game to the table, although tilted more towards offense. Still, even for a 2nd pairing he doesn't stand out much offensively according to the numbers. Both of these guys, however, are noted as good stick handlers so perhaps the offense underrates their ability to move the puck. Either way, they will rely tremendously on support from their forwards to move the puck up the ice, and perhaps even defensively as well.. both of which will happen with this group.
It doesn't look pretty on paper, but I do believe with great help from the forwards, the job should get done more often than not.
I make up for the worst 1st pairing in ATD history to perhaps the best 2nd pairing in ATD history. Maybe.
Here we have an excellent #3 and an excellent #4. For whatever reason Doughty can't score, however, Kevin Shattenkirk has high praise for his ability to get creative with handling the puck. Suter's offense is fairly good for a 2nd pairing based on the numbers, but I do think purely in terms of offensive talent, Doughty is better than him.. the Kings just don't score enough for that to come through in the numbers.
What this pairing does provide is immaculate defense. Of the current group of active defensemen, it really doesn't get any better than this. They don't bring the elite possession of an Erik Karlsson, but I'm not sure there's anyone else I'd want defending the zone.
Much of the concerns of the 1st pair should be alleviated with this pair, who have a history of playing huge minutes in real life. They should be able to more than adequately play those extra minutes the 1st pair won't.
Continuing with the excellent defensive depth, we have a good to great #4 in the #5 spot, and a strong #6. They'll play quite a bit more than the average 3rd pair, and they'll need to. I may even need to bump up their minutes a little more. Mohns, being the best offensive defenseman I have, should be able to ravage most lower units that he'll be up against when he does get the puck, and Harris is just your traditional, solid, steady stay-at-home guy.
Just a solid spare in my mind. Nothing too fancy. I don't expect too many injuries on my defense. Maybe Mohns might miss a few games but that shouldn't impact things too badly.
OVERALL DEFENSE
Issues on the 1st unit, and big ones. I think Gerard, defensively, is fine, but Ross might get exposed from time to time. The strong support the defense can expect from the forwards should help to mitigate this substantially. The biggest issue would be if Ross is the only man back on a 2-on-1 for example, but with this group of players this shouldn't be happening very often.
Otherwise, the defense from 3-6 should be among the best in the draft, if not the best.
One potential issue, and a legit one, is there is a lack of numbers-based evidence to support the idea that this group, overall, will be able to move the puck well. There is good anecdotal support for both Doughty and Ross being able to stickhandle, while Gerard was noted as a good stickhandler by LoH, though I'm not sure why. They will definitely need strong support from the forwards in order to exit the zone, which they will get.
Roy Worters could possibly be underrated as most of the goalies ranked in front of him combined both excellent regular season play and post-season play. Worters, having at best an incomplete post-season record, has only his regular season resume to go by, and Hart voting suggests there weren't too many better than him there. Worsley will be one of the best backups in this league, thus giving my starter more rest than most will get without severely impacting the quality of the netminding. If Worters should be seen as not being able to get it done in the post-season, Worsley has the track record to step in and play well.
From a skill perspective, I'm not sure it gets much better than this for a 1st PP unit. There isn't an obvious net crasher here, though I think Ullman should be able to fill that role well enough. The catch though is that there should be enough skill here that they shouldn't really need that.
Drafting Bathgate is part of the reason why I felt I was able to get away with not getting that strong #1 defenseman. While his offense shouldn't be taken at face value while playing the point most likely, he should still be one of the better #1 PP guys, and his playmaking abilities make him an ideal QB for the PP. That he and Mohns both have good shots only helps matters.
As I mentioned, I was disappointed by the offense I am getting from the Mayorov - Starshinov combo, so this unit won't be as good as I had hoped. Additionally, while numbers suggest Suter is a good candidate as a #2 PP guy, he's a very bad shooter from what I've read. Apparently he has the problem of always getting his shots blocked, so we'll need to rely on Ross for most of the point shots.
Still, even if there isn't quite as much skill as I had hoped, Starshinov will do well just making things miserable for both the goalie and the defensemen in front of the net, so that'll help the shots that do get through to the goalie.
I do wonder though if this unit will get stuck in "too-much-passing" syndrome. There's a lot of playmaking here but not that much goalscoring aside from Starshinov. Ross was known to be selfish at times and I'll probably need him to be when this unit is out. Joliat is also a lot more balanced than people generally give him credit for so there is that as well.
Really nothing to say about these guys.
Jarvis and Klukay on a 1st PK unit should be among the best I would think. Harris is there simply to contend with guys like Howe and Kerr in my division who will attempt to abuse their way into getting goals. I have absolutely no idea if he'll be overmatched in this regard. It's possible. I'll be needing my forwards to do a good job of preventing point shots to mitigate this potentiality, which they should be excellent at. Jarvis especially was known for his anticipation and ability to intercept passes on the PK.
I'd have liked to do better than Ullman but I see no reason to think he won't be a good PK'er on a 2nd unit. Nevin is good enough to be on a 1st unit so that will offset things. To be honest, with the way my PK minutes are being handled, I expect Ullman simply to take the draws and when possible, to change right away. He'll probably get stuck out there for a bit at times, which is where the 1 minute per game is reflected. The majority of the PK time is going to Jarvis, Klukay and Nevin.
All guys who should be good enough to fill in when necessary but not enough to be seen as primary options.
This doesn't seem too unreasonable but let me know if you guys see any issues.
Again, nothing should be too crazy here.
OVERALL IMPRESSIONS
This is honestly the best team I've ever built, both in terms of construction and how the team functions as a whole. I really hope everyone else sees it that way as I believe this team should be a strong contender for the championship!
------------
Let me know what you guys think, and of course I am happy to receive comments and criticisms, which I will respond to for sure!
jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
- 10,004
- 238
Thanks for the feedback MB!
For your questions about Boris Mayorov, there is a ton of info in the bio I put together: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=128533383&postcount=43
In short, very physical, good stickhandler, fast skater, and most importantly, worked extremely well with Starshinov even though they should be swapping sticks for purposes of practicality.
One thing I really like about Nevin is that he actually worked as the glue guy for a scoring line in real life. Mahovlich - Kelly - Nevin was the line. It's the same kind of idea here, just in a lesser role and with lesser linemates. He's even good enough offensively to help out in that area, much better than Evgeny Mayorov was in any event.
Regarding Starshinov's defensive game, this is something that came out very recently but he was actually a very good defensive player in real life:
It's up to you to decide how much this is worth at the ATD level.
Much more on Starshinov here: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=128268727&postcount=32
Coach: Barry Trotz
Captain Orr
Assistants Schmidt Chara
Alex Delvecchio-Milt Schmidt - Bryan Hextall Sr
Pete Mahovlich - Adam Oates- Peter Bondra
Daniel Sedin -Henrik Sedin-Tod Sloan
Harry Watson -Joel Otto -Dirk Graham
Dan Bain - Kent Nilsson -Bob Nystrom
Bobby Orr - Zdeno Chara
Jimmy Thomson -Gus Mortson
Rob Ramage- Wally Stanowski
Victor Hedman
Turk Broda, G
Roberto Louongo, G
Power Play
PP Unit 1
Delvecchio-Schmidt - Hextall
Orr Chara
PP Unit 2
Sedin-Sedin- Bondra
Stanowski- Oates
Penalty Kill
PK Unit1
Otto -Graham
Orr -Chara
PK Unit 2
Delvecchio-Schmidt
Thomson- Mortson
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Dreakmur
Registered User
Coach: Barry Trotz
Captain Orr
Assistants Schmidt Chara
Alex Delvecchio-Milt Schmidt - Bryan Hextall Sr
Pete Mahovlich - Adam Oates- Peter Bondra
Daniel Sedin -Henrik Sedin-Tod Sloan
Harry Watson -Joel Otto -Dirk Graham
Dan Bain - Kent Nilsson -Bob Nystrom
Bobby Orr - Zdeno Chara
Jimmy Thomson -Gus Mortson
Rob Ramage- Wally Stanowski
Victor Hedman
Turk Broda, G
Roberto Louongo, G
Power Play
PP Unit 1
Delvecchio-Schmidt - Hextall
Orr Chara
PP Unit 2
Sedin-Sedin- Bondra
Stanowski- Oates
Penalty Kill
PK Unit1
Otto -Graham
Orr -Chara
PK Unit 2
Delvecchio-Schmidt
Thomson- Mortson
I'm probably in the minority, but I'm a Trotz fan. I think he's the best coach in the NHL, and has been for a long time now.
Solid 1st line with Delvecchio-Schmidt-Hextrall. No real star, but when you don't select a forward until the 50s, that's going to happen. Good balance, no weaknesses on that line.
2nd line is a bit of a mess for me. Oates is probably an average 2nd liner here, and while Bondra is not a true 2nd line talent, I kind of like the mix he brings with Oates. Mahovlich is what confuses me - he's out of place on the wing, and wouldn't even be 2nd line quality at his natural position. Also, the combo of Oates and Bondra could use some muscle, which he doesn't provide.
3rd line is soft for my liking. Good scoring from there, but bring little else.
Joel Otto, in a draft this size, should probably be a specialized spare. If you're playing a team with big power centres, he draws in. Against quicker guys though, I don't see him having success.
1st defense pair is probably the best in the draft. Top end talent and excellent mix of skills.
2nd pair is average, and 3rd pair is weak for me.
Broda is a below average goalie here, but he's clutch, so will be good in the play-offs.
chaosrevolver
Snubbed Again
COBALT SILVER KINGS
Coach: Art Ross
Assistant Coach: Jacques Demers
John LeClair --- Stan Mikita --- Mike Bossy
Bert Olmstead --- Max Bentley --- Bill Mosienko
Don Marshall --- Guy Carbonneau (A) --- Ed Westfall
Vic Hadfield --- Frank McGee --- Eddie Oatman
Pud Glass --- Jeff Carter
Rod Langway (C) --- Bill Quackenbush
Pat Stapleton --- Fern Flaman (A)
Bobby Rowe --- Red Dutton
Dion Phaneuf
Bernie Parent
Curtis Joseph
PP1
John LeClair - Stan Mikita - Mike Bossy
Bill Quackenbush - Max Bentley
PP2
Bert Olmstead - Frank McGee - Bill Mosienko
Pat Stapleton - Red Dutton
PK1
Ed Westfall - Guy Carbonneau
Rod Langway - Fern Flaman
PK2
Bert Olmstead - Don Marshall
Bill Quackenbush - Red Dutton
Coach: Art Ross
Assistant Coach: Jacques Demers
John LeClair --- Stan Mikita --- Mike Bossy
Bert Olmstead --- Max Bentley --- Bill Mosienko
Don Marshall --- Guy Carbonneau (A) --- Ed Westfall
Vic Hadfield --- Frank McGee --- Eddie Oatman
Pud Glass --- Jeff Carter
Rod Langway (C) --- Bill Quackenbush
Pat Stapleton --- Fern Flaman (A)
Bobby Rowe --- Red Dutton
Dion Phaneuf
Bernie Parent
Curtis Joseph
PP1
John LeClair - Stan Mikita - Mike Bossy
Bill Quackenbush - Max Bentley
PP2
Bert Olmstead - Frank McGee - Bill Mosienko
Pat Stapleton - Red Dutton
PK1
Ed Westfall - Guy Carbonneau
Rod Langway - Fern Flaman
PK2
Bert Olmstead - Don Marshall
Bill Quackenbush - Red Dutton
chaosrevolver
Snubbed Again
I will start with my own personal evaluation with my team. First off, I have to say this is probably the best submission I have ever put forth in the ATD. It's the first time I've really been focused and put forth my best effort and I am really pleased with how it went as a whole.
First Line: John LeClair - Stan Mikita - Mike Bossy
Comments: I really love this line. I think Mikita brings a great puck-possession game to go along with Bossy's tremendous finishing ability. LeClair can be a solid corner guy that can get to the net and finish when needed, while also providing a physical presence. To me this line has everything and I am absolutely thrilled with how it turned out.
Second Line: Bert Olmstead - Max Bentley - Bill Mosienko
Comments: Max Bentley is probably one of the better second lines in this draft, at least offensively. His defensive weaknesses can be covered up by Olmstead who often gets taken as a first line glue guy, but will instead be a second line one for me, bringing great corner ability, excellent playmaking and a really good defensive presence. Mosienko brings chemistry with Bentley and the ability to put the puck in the net which is why I wanted him on the right side.
Third Line: Don Marshall - Guy Carbonneau - Ed Westfall
Comments: I went pure defensively with my shutdown third line and I am looking forward to seeing them shut down opposing top lines. Carbonneau is obviously one of the top defensive players in the draft and adding someone like Westfall who was a brilliant shadow, and Marshall as well...I think this is easily one of the prime defensive lines in this entire draft.
Fourth Line: Vic Hadfield - Frank McGee - Eddie Oatman
Comments: I went a bit more offensive with my fourth line. Frank McGee was a tremendous goal scorer and a punishing checker despite his size. Oatman brings the playmaking to this line, could put the puck in when needed, was strong defensively and even dropped the gloves when needed. I believe he really compliments McGee well and brings everything Frankie doesn't. Vic Hadfield can be a strong Power Forward option on the left side that can be a bit of a protector and a finisher around the net with his size and goal scoring ability.
1st Pairing Defense: Rod Langway - Bill Quackenbush
Comments: Tremendously hard hitter and a dominant pure defensive defenseman. Was a 2x Norris Trophy winner essentially built around his defensive play. I think he's a really good #2, which I wanted given I waited a bit longer than others to get my #1 in Quackenbush. Bill was a really good two-way player who could really rush the puck and was an excellent positional defender. I look at Langway like BlackJack Stewart who excelled alongside Quackenbush, and I am hoping these two can find similar success.
2nd Pairing Defense: Pat Stapleton - Fern Flaman
Comments: Stapleton is an excellent offensive second pairing defenseman who six times was top-5 in scoring for defensemen. He was a great skater and had an excellent poke check. I believe he can be a very mobile defenseman for this line that can possess the puck at a high level and really move it around. Fern Flaman brings something a little different. "The Bull" was a stay-at-home defender who excelled as an open-ice hitter and a net clearer...combining that three top-5 finishes in defensemen scoring to help him become a six time all-star and three-time NHL 2nd Team All-Star. What one of these two doesn't bring, the other does. I believe both of these guys are good second pairing defenders at this level.
3rd Pairing Defense: Bobby Rowe - Red Dutton
Comments: I believe these two defenders are strong third pairing guys. I'll have more to provide about Dutton from the book I've been going through, but he was a good offensive contributor who was even more known for his absolutely devastating body checks and some solid defensive play. I think he perhaps gets a bit overlooked and I'm hoping I'm not the only one who thinks that. Bobby Rowe finished top-5 six times in PCHA scoring for defenders and was a tough customer who patrolled the blue line and was named an outstanding defenseman in the PCHA five times.
Goalies: Bernie Parent and Curtis Joseph
Comments: Bernie Parent is probably middle of the pack overall as an option but his game really steps it up come playoff time. I wanted to take a good backup that had some really strong regular season performances, to take some pressure off Parent during the season. Come playoff time though, I think Parent is one of the better playoff performers in the net.
Coaching: Art Ross and Jacques Demers
Comments: Art Ross likes his nasty, physical players and I think this team has a lot of them. I believe while he is probably middle-of-the-pack as a coach in this, that Demers can be a great player's assistant who can make up for some of the deficiencies Ross may have.
First Line: John LeClair - Stan Mikita - Mike Bossy
Comments: I really love this line. I think Mikita brings a great puck-possession game to go along with Bossy's tremendous finishing ability. LeClair can be a solid corner guy that can get to the net and finish when needed, while also providing a physical presence. To me this line has everything and I am absolutely thrilled with how it turned out.
Second Line: Bert Olmstead - Max Bentley - Bill Mosienko
Comments: Max Bentley is probably one of the better second lines in this draft, at least offensively. His defensive weaknesses can be covered up by Olmstead who often gets taken as a first line glue guy, but will instead be a second line one for me, bringing great corner ability, excellent playmaking and a really good defensive presence. Mosienko brings chemistry with Bentley and the ability to put the puck in the net which is why I wanted him on the right side.
Third Line: Don Marshall - Guy Carbonneau - Ed Westfall
Comments: I went pure defensively with my shutdown third line and I am looking forward to seeing them shut down opposing top lines. Carbonneau is obviously one of the top defensive players in the draft and adding someone like Westfall who was a brilliant shadow, and Marshall as well...I think this is easily one of the prime defensive lines in this entire draft.
Fourth Line: Vic Hadfield - Frank McGee - Eddie Oatman
Comments: I went a bit more offensive with my fourth line. Frank McGee was a tremendous goal scorer and a punishing checker despite his size. Oatman brings the playmaking to this line, could put the puck in when needed, was strong defensively and even dropped the gloves when needed. I believe he really compliments McGee well and brings everything Frankie doesn't. Vic Hadfield can be a strong Power Forward option on the left side that can be a bit of a protector and a finisher around the net with his size and goal scoring ability.
1st Pairing Defense: Rod Langway - Bill Quackenbush
Comments: Tremendously hard hitter and a dominant pure defensive defenseman. Was a 2x Norris Trophy winner essentially built around his defensive play. I think he's a really good #2, which I wanted given I waited a bit longer than others to get my #1 in Quackenbush. Bill was a really good two-way player who could really rush the puck and was an excellent positional defender. I look at Langway like BlackJack Stewart who excelled alongside Quackenbush, and I am hoping these two can find similar success.
2nd Pairing Defense: Pat Stapleton - Fern Flaman
Comments: Stapleton is an excellent offensive second pairing defenseman who six times was top-5 in scoring for defensemen. He was a great skater and had an excellent poke check. I believe he can be a very mobile defenseman for this line that can possess the puck at a high level and really move it around. Fern Flaman brings something a little different. "The Bull" was a stay-at-home defender who excelled as an open-ice hitter and a net clearer...combining that three top-5 finishes in defensemen scoring to help him become a six time all-star and three-time NHL 2nd Team All-Star. What one of these two doesn't bring, the other does. I believe both of these guys are good second pairing defenders at this level.
3rd Pairing Defense: Bobby Rowe - Red Dutton
Comments: I believe these two defenders are strong third pairing guys. I'll have more to provide about Dutton from the book I've been going through, but he was a good offensive contributor who was even more known for his absolutely devastating body checks and some solid defensive play. I think he perhaps gets a bit overlooked and I'm hoping I'm not the only one who thinks that. Bobby Rowe finished top-5 six times in PCHA scoring for defenders and was a tough customer who patrolled the blue line and was named an outstanding defenseman in the PCHA five times.
Goalies: Bernie Parent and Curtis Joseph
Comments: Bernie Parent is probably middle of the pack overall as an option but his game really steps it up come playoff time. I wanted to take a good backup that had some really strong regular season performances, to take some pressure off Parent during the season. Come playoff time though, I think Parent is one of the better playoff performers in the net.
Coaching: Art Ross and Jacques Demers
Comments: Art Ross likes his nasty, physical players and I think this team has a lot of them. I believe while he is probably middle-of-the-pack as a coach in this, that Demers can be a great player's assistant who can make up for some of the deficiencies Ross may have.
jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
- 10,004
- 238
Pretty fair review I would say. That first line is definitely outstanding and you're right that your 3rd line has to be among the best checking lines in the draft, if not the best.
Now that being said, I don't really believe Olmstead is as good a playmaker as you make it seem. I'd really like for others to weigh in on this. He was 1st, 1st, 2nd in assists but that's about it really. I don't really consider his 9th place finish all that relevant because the leader had nearly double the amount of assists.
As for Eddie Oatman, I'd need to see a lot more to be convinced that he was strong defensively. There are some vague passages about it in his bio but nothing particularly concrete. I did a pretty thorough look through the work seventies did on him and really didn't come away thinking he was much more than a scorer with a bit of grit.
chaosrevolver
Snubbed Again
Id say I overstated Olmstead. I think he can be a good playmaker on that line along with his standard glue guy skills but "excellent" was probably overstating it.
Oatman ill have to look into it..but from what I read he seemed like he at least had some defensive credentials that he could bring to a 4th line along with his offense and grit.
Coaching: Top 5-10 coach of all-time, though nearer to the 5 than 10. Ivan's a good fit with the group you've assembled. There's not much else to say.
1st line: Elite first line in terms of both talent and chemistry. Richard is the 2nd best RW in the draft, and Joliat is the 7th best LW in my opinion. In terms of overall effectiveness, Thornton is around the late 20s to early 30s mark on a best centres list, making him one of the worst 1st line centres in a 25 team draft. However, Joliat and Richard recoup quite a bit of this loss, and Thornton's job on this line is to just score. Thornton definitely has 1st line O talent. He's probably somewhere in the average range in terms of 1st line Cs in this department.
2nd line: Ullman-Bathgate is a nasty 2nd line duo. Ullman an elite 2nd line C in this draft, as he should be, since he usually slots in the mid-20s in a top-C list. Bathgate is massively overqualified as a 2nd liner, since his talent level is easily that of an elite 1st line RW. Although Parise's skillset lends itself well to an Ullman-Bathgate duo, his talent level is not befitting of a 2nd liner. Ideally, in a draft this size, Parise should be a 3rd liner. However, like your first line, the massive surplus in talent that you've created with your two other players negates the talent deficit of Parise.
3rd line: One of the many offensive third lines in this draft. There is known chemistry with Starshinov and Mayorov, and Nevin seems like a good fit with these two. Talent wise, I'd have Starshinov as a below average 3rd line C, and Nevin as an average 3rd line RW. I'm not too familiar with Mayorov, so I'll reserve judgement on him.
4th line: Good defensive line that can be trusted with the task of shutting down other team's first lines. However, this line is a black hole offensively, but that's not their job, so whatever.
1st pairing: I said it in the lineup advice thread. Since you waited so long to pick your first defenceman, you were naturally going to end up with the worst 1st pairing in the draft. Gerard should be an elite #2, and in a #1's role, I'm afraid he's going to be in over his head. I would have Ross somewhere in the 60 to 70 range for D, which would make him an average #3, and like Gerard, he could be in over his head. Chemistry wise, it works though, with Gerard being the stay at home conscience, letting Ross play up to his strengths.
2nd pairing: I'd probably have Doughty in the same range as Ross now, making him a good #3. Suter is probably an elite #4. Defensively, this pairing is going to be very difficult to play against, but the offense coming from this pairing is not very good.
3rd pairing: Mohns is probably an elite #4 like Suter, making him overqualified for third pairing duties. Harris is a good #5. This pairing checks the O and D box for me.
Goalies: Worters is a below average starter. Worsley is an elite back-up. If I were you, seeing how defense would be one of the weak points of my team, I'd probably have gone for at least an average goalie who is obviously going to bail out the defense more often than a below average one.
Powerplay: Both units look good, both in terms of talent and chemistry. However, at this level, Suter should not be a good powerplay option. Why have Doughty as a PP spare? I think Doughty has a better offensive regular season resume and a exponentially better playoff offensive resume.
Penalty Kill: You have the right personnel for the job. 1st PK forwards are elite or above average. Harris has the skillset for PKing, but I'm not sure if he has the talent for 1st PK duties. Good FWs for 2nd PK duty, and elite D backing them up.
Spares: Good.
Namba 17
Registered User
- May 9, 2011
- 1,687
- 561
Overall impression - not the best G. So, he needs help from D-men. D-men are good, but not the best - need help from forwards. I can't say, that F group are not two-way at all, but can't say, that all of them will help their D-group. A lot will depends on their rivals. In vacuum - a good team, but this defense and this G may not be enough against some other contenders.
1-st line. As I said before - a good line. Richard needs good passes and both Thornton and Joliat can provide him with them. Both Thornton and Joliat will backcheck (sometimes even Richard will help them) - neither are great in it, but neither are complete liability. Thornton can play in the slot and Joliat is dangerous enough scorer to take some attention out of Richard. Slight question mark is Thornton as #1 C - he will be weaker than a lot of C, who will play in the 1-st lines of other teams, but I don't think the gap is that significant.
2-nd line. Well, you know it yourself, right?
otherwise you wouldn't underline, that Joliat will take some Parise shifts. To me, Parise is quite poor 2-nd liner in 25-teams draft. TBO, I'd doubt about him as 3-d liner here. Ullman - Bathgate is a very good combo. So a lot will depends on your rivals.3-d line. Very good 3-d line. Mayorov - Starshinov is a proved combo, Starshinov was excellent defensively and was great goal-scorer - he is 2-d in Soviet League' goals total after Mikhailov and 7-th in goals total on WC and OG in Soviet international team (so, I don't know there this VxV you used came from), Nevin fits them very well and he is definitely an upgrade over their RW in real life.
4-th line. I'm not a fan of it, TBO. They can barely score on this level, and Wilson will spend too much time in a penalty-box. It's your checking line, I got it, but I'm not a fan of it.
Spares - very good. Probably, better, than some of your main roster players
1-st pair. I'd say, that with either better G, or more defensively responsible F, it will be good enough. Otherwise I can't say that. It's not a complete disaster, but it's definitely not the main strength of your team.
2-nd pair. Good enough. I wouldn't say, that it's the best 2-nd pair in the ATD, because I'm not that high on Suter as a majority here. But it's a good pair.
3-d pair. Good. Isn't Mohns played left?
Spare - good enough.
G - not the best starter, but one of the best backup. See above - G himself won't damage, it's overall impression, that may cause you win.
Coach - good.
PP - very good.
PK-1 - one of the best
PK-2 - average - I've never heard anything about Ullman's PK and Suter is just good enough to me, so it's questionable a little overall.
Anyway, it was my opinion about this team
jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
- 10,004
- 238
Thanks for the review! Couple of comments:
Gerard isn't a #1 in the sense that he doesn't have the elite two-way game that most #1s have. However, how many guys are really better than him from a purely defensive perspective? He gets taken where he does largely due to that part of his game. It was said he was even better than Cleghorn in that department.
As for the 2nd pairing not being good offensively, I agree from a purely numbers perspective. However, Doughty's creativity with the puck is something he is consistently praised for, while Suter is excellent at making the first pass out of the zone. I think you underrate Suter offensively as well - his VsX D comes out to about 89.6. I have no idea how that ranks, but seventies has him as a solid option for the 2nd best defenseman of a 1st unit PP. You'll have to ask him about the details with this. The only real downfall of Suter's offensive game is that his shot sucks, but that doesn't matter too much when breaking out of the zone, and Ross will be the designated shooter from the point on the 2nd PP.
Just as a comparison, Doughty's regular season VsX D comes out to 74.4. Whatever playoff offensive advantage he'd have over Suter is more than made up for by the fact that Suter is just a better regular season scorer.
With regards to goaltending, I really did want to do better but every time it came time to taking one, I balked because there were a number of options available and my next pick being not far away. Then they all ended up getting taken before my pick came up!
That being said, Worters made a career out of bailing out horrible teams so I think if you view my defense corps as overall bad defensively in this draft (I would strongly disagree), Worters will be right at home.When you consider a guy like Parise, how much better are players like Northcott, Lewis, Gottselig, etc.?
Northcott was named to the 1st team AS once in his entire career. Lewis has an AS record of 3, 4, 5, 7, in the O6 era at that. Gottselig's record is 2, 3, 3 (again, O6). I imagine if I looked closer at the usual suspects that show up as glue guys on LW, it would paint a similar story.
Parise's record is 2, 4, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12.
Want to take a look at VsX?
Lewis: 75
Gottselig: 74.8
Parise: 70.9
Northcott: 68.6
Let's throw a few more in there:
Dumart: 72.6
Shutt: 70.6
Barber: 70
Gillies doesn't even register on the VsX list.
I agree he's worse than most of the guys you could mention here in similar roles, but how much worse can he possibly be? Nearly all of those guys could claim to be better based on playoff record, but can that even be true? Parise didn't get the chance to go deep in the playoffs very often, but he took advantage of the opportunity when he did. In his shorter playoff stints, he was a vital part of the team.
The pecking order of LWs is not linear in terms of how the talent level flows. There is a steep decline as you go down at the top, which almost completely levels off after a certain point. Yes, if you rank Parise on a list, he'll show up badly in terms of whether or not he "should" be in a top-6 in a 25 team ATD. However, how much difference is there really after a certain point?
I'm just going to put it out there that I think there's a massively bigger gap between Gottselig and Hull, then there is between Gottselig and Parise. I'm not even sure that Gottselig is a whole hell of a lot better than Parise, and nobody would blink an eye about the idea of Gottselig showing up on an ATD top-6, even in this smaller draft.
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jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
- 10,004
- 238
Overall impression - not the best G. So, he needs help from D-men. D-men are good, but not the best - need help from forwards. I can't say, that F group are not two-way at all, but can't say, that all of them will help their D-group. A lot will depends on their rivals. In vacuum - a good team, but this defense and this G may not be enough against some other contenders.
1-st line. As I said before - a good line. Richard needs good passes and both Thornton and Joliat can provide him with them. Both Thornton and Joliat will backcheck (sometimes even Richard will help them) - neither are great in it, but neither are complete liability. Thornton can play in the slot and Joliat is dangerous enough scorer to take some attention out of Richard. Slight question mark is Thornton as #1 C - he will be weaker than a lot of C, who will play in the 1-st lines of other teams, but I don't think the gap is that significant.
2-nd line. Well, you know it yourself, right?
3-d line. Very good 3-d line. Mayorov - Starshinov is a proved combo, Starshinov was excellent defensively and was great goal-scorer - he is 2-d in Soviet League' goals total after Mikhailov and 7-th in goals total on WC and OG in Soviet international team (so, I don't know there this VxV you used came from), Nevin fits them very well and he is definitely an upgrade over their RW in real life.
4-th line. I'm not a fan of it, TBO. They can barely score on this level, and Wilson will spend too much time in a penalty-box. It's your checking line, I got it, but I'm not a fan of it.
Spares - very good. Probably, better, than some of your main roster players
1-st pair. I'd say, that with either better G, or more defensively responsible F, it will be good enough. Otherwise I can't say that. It's not a complete disaster, but it's definitely not the main strength of your team.
2-nd pair. Good enough. I wouldn't say, that it's the best 2-nd pair in the ATD, because I'm not that high on Suter as a majority here. But it's a good pair.
3-d pair. Good. Isn't Mohns played left?
Spare - good enough.
G - not the best starter, but one of the best backup. See above - G himself won't damage, it's overall impression, that may cause you win.
Coach - good.
PP - very good.
PK-1 - one of the best
PK-2 - average - I've never heard anything about Ullman's PK and Suter is just good enough to me, so it's questionable a little overall.
Anyway, it was my opinion about this team
Thanks for the review! A few comments:
Wilson won't get enough ice time to spend that much time in the box. I expect 6 minutes per game at even strength, at most.
I'm a little puzzled at your idea that you don't like my 4th line. It's a line of specialists that has a definite theme - hard forechecking from Klukay and Wilson with Jarvis protecting against turn overs. Will they score a lot? Nope. Klukay and Jarvis especially were never used in offensive roles in real life so their opportunity to score was never very good to begin with. Jarvis has also been shown to not get a whole lot of ice time in real life as well - most of that time was spent focusing on defense.
Here, they won't need to focus on scoring because there's plenty of it throughout the rest of my lineup. I only expect them to go out, take care of the defensive end when necessary and spend time cycling the puck in the offensive zone when they get the chance. All that being said, these guys won't be spending much time on the ice at ES so I don't expect the 4th line to be much of a factor in most games.
In regards to Suter's PK abilities: he has a career 38% usage for teams 5% better than average. This doesn't include last year or this year, both years leading his team in PK TOI/G. It also includes his earlier years where he didn't spend a great deal of time PK'ing.
See above post in regards to Parise on my 2nd line - I don't think he's much worse than most guys who show up as 2nd line glue guys here.
Also I want to really point out that you are seriously underrating Aurel Joliat's defensive ability. He is a very good defensive player, even here. I really have no idea where you got the idea that he wasn't.
Dreakmur
Registered User
That's plenty of time to do something stupid!
Not only does his offense stick out as weak, he's not really that much of an intangibles guy either. Yeah, he's a decent mucker in today's NHL, but he's certainly not much of a plus in an ATD.
You'd have to point to a 2nd liner you think is worse.
I think he's a "good" defensive player here - not "great".
jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
- 10,004
- 238
That's plenty of time to do something stupid!
Possibly. In real life he had about 2 PIMs per pro level game. In comparison, Lalonde had 2.17 PIMs per pro level game. Wilson won't be in the box any more often than Lalonde on a per game level. Wilson, given the amount of ice time he's getting, probably won't spend 2 PIMs/game in the box.
Then again, maybe he will.
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...r=timeOnIcePerGame,lte,10&sort=penaltyMinutes
How the hell do these guys do it? They spend less than 10 minutes per game on the ice and end up in the box that often. My guess is Cully Wilson's level of violence will probably be about comparable to a Chris Neil. Martin, McLeod and Thorburn all have more than 10 major penalties, while Neil has 7, almost all of which would be for fighting.
I think it would be appropriate to assume Wilson will spend less than a minute per game in the box for minor penalties based on this.
If his offense sticks out as weak, then pretty much so does most of the other guys I mentioned.
Even Olmstead has a VsX7 of 75.9.
He's actually even better as an ES scorer with an ES VsX7 of around 77.
The fact of the matter is, most teams end up putting glue guys on the left wing who aren't really all that special offensively at all. Parise stacks up pretty well against a lot of them, while having one of the better peaks there as well.
As far as his intangibles, I guess we'll agree to disagree. Does he stand out as an intangibles guy in this draft? No, probably not, and certainly not compared to the guys that I can mentioned.. but when you consider the complete package, I just really don't think he's a hell of a lot worse than many of the other glue guy LWs.
Agree to disagree then.
Yes, that would probably be a more accurate description of Gerard. In the same veing with Thornton but switching positions, Gerard doesn't have the overall talent of a #1 D. But in terms of defensive play alone, Gerard stacks up well with other #1 D. I guess a way of describing Gerard's effectiveness at this level is a traditional stay at home, low event guy that is going to have terrible advanced stats.
Looks like I massively underrated Suter's offense and overrated Doughty's. Lesson learned.
With regards to goaltending, I really did want to do better but every time it came time to taking one, I balked because there were a number of options available and my next pick being not far away. Then they all ended up getting taken before my pick came up!
Good point. Now that you bring this up, in terms of regular season goal-tending, he could be as good as Belfour, Esposito, Parent etc. His lower ranking than these guys is due to the fact of his almost non-existent playoff record due to the crappy teams he played on. In the regular season, you should be fine, but I'm not too sure when the playoffs roll around. Worters could have been elite if he was given the chance to perform in the playoffs, but you can't really give someone credit for something he didn't do. You've got Worsley, but he's still just a back-up.
With regards to Gottselig and Lewis, their vsx scores are ~ 4-5 points ahead of Parise, which is a massive difference. Looking at it in more detail, there's a 30+ gap between Gottselig and Parise, and surely more with Lewis. Add in the fact that Parise doesn't necessarily have an edge over them in terms of intangibles, I have a really hard time seeing how Parise is just a bit below them.
Also, with regards to Dumart, his vsx is better than Parise and I believe Dumart is in consideration for top-20 defensive FWs of all-time while Parise is not even close to that level. Like Lewis and Gottselig, I am not buying that Parise is almost on the same level as Dumart.
However, yes, I do personally believe all the guys you mentioned, with the exception of Dumart (IMO, he's an average #2 LW), to ideally be 3rd liners in a 25 team draft (unless new information is revealed about them). In 25 team ATD speak, Gottselig and Lewis are elite 3rd liners while Parise and the rest are average ones. Others might not see it that way, but as I said, that's how I personally see it.
And yes, the talent drop from the #1 LW to the the #30 LW is not the same as the one from the #30 LW to the # 60 LW, but it's still a gap, and any advantage and disadvantage should be considered.
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Dreakmur
Registered User
With the exception of Shutt, all the other guys you listed bring something else at an elite level.
So, Olmstead is better offensively... and defensively... and physically... and...
So his offense is similar to guys who bring intangibles, but he doesn't bring those same intangibles?
Yes, most guys put glue guys on scoring lines. You just put a weak scorer there.
Hey, I'm as big a fan of Joliat as most here, but you'll really need to convince me that he deserves to be called elite defensively here.
Namba 17
Registered User
- May 9, 2011
- 1,687
- 561
1-st line. It's some frekking masterpiece
Not the best two-way line, but with your 1st pair you don't need your first line to be more two-way, than it is. Really, one of the best 1-st lines on this draft. 2-nd line. Another line, I like. Bentley is not enough two-way on my taste, though, but offensively they should be among the best on the draft. But, considering your goalie, this may be a question mark too.
3-d line.
the main problem here - who will score? If you meet other team, made the way, you made yours, everything will be alright. Otherwise - not so sure.
4th line. Power forward, great scorer and good scorer and great passer. Noone backcheck. Pretty weird set of players for a 4th line, to my taste. Not a bad itself, it may be not the best for your goalie or D. Great offensively, for sure.
1-st pair. Another combination I really like
One of the best defensive D-man with great two-way D-man. To my taste - one of the best top-pair at this ATD . 2-nd pair - good enough.
3-d pair - not bad, but, probably, I'd consider more defensive D-men.
G - not the best for your team, considering the amount of offence-first forwards. Backup - good.
PP - great. plain and simple
PK - 1-st one - great.
2-nd PK - not so sure about Olmstead and Dutton. Not bad, though.
Spares - nothing special.
The Miami Screaming Eagles
Head Coach:Cecil Hart
Captain: Alf Smith
Assistant Captains: Ott Heller, Ed Litzenberger
Bobby Hull - Elmer Lach - Theo Fleury
Alexander Ovechkin - Dale Hawerchuk - Alf Smith
Rick Martin - Igor Larionov - Bill Guerin
Brad Marchand - Red Sullivan - Ed Litzenberger
Marcel Pronovost - Mark Howe
Allan Stanley- Ott Heller
Lloyd Cook-Brian Rafalski
Henrik Lundqvist
Tim Thomas
Spares
Forward: Ray Getliffe, Keith Primeau, Trevor Linden
Defense: Stefan Persson
PP1
Dale Hawerchuk – Theo Fleury
Alexander Ovechkin - Bobby Hull
Brian Rafalski
PP2
Elmer Lach – Bill Guerin
Ed Litzenberger- Rick Martin
Mark Howe
PK1
Red Sullivan– Theo Fleury
Allan Stanley – Ott Heller
PK2
Elmer Lach– Brad Marchand
Marcel Pronovost – Mark Howe
Head Coach:Cecil Hart
Captain: Alf Smith
Assistant Captains: Ott Heller, Ed Litzenberger
Bobby Hull - Elmer Lach - Theo Fleury
Alexander Ovechkin - Dale Hawerchuk - Alf Smith
Rick Martin - Igor Larionov - Bill Guerin
Brad Marchand - Red Sullivan - Ed Litzenberger
Marcel Pronovost - Mark Howe
Allan Stanley- Ott Heller
Lloyd Cook-Brian Rafalski
Henrik Lundqvist
Tim Thomas
Spares
Forward: Ray Getliffe, Keith Primeau, Trevor Linden
Defense: Stefan Persson
PP1
Dale Hawerchuk – Theo Fleury
Alexander Ovechkin - Bobby Hull
Brian Rafalski
PP2
Elmer Lach – Bill Guerin
Ed Litzenberger- Rick Martin
Mark Howe
PK1
Red Sullivan– Theo Fleury
Allan Stanley – Ott Heller
PK2
Elmer Lach– Brad Marchand
Marcel Pronovost – Mark Howe
jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
- 10,004
- 238
On the advanced stats front, maybe, maybe not. It depends how effective you think my forwards will be in helping to get the puck out of the defensive zone. Gerard will definitely need help in that regard.
If anything, I was surprised at how good Suter ended up being, though I knew Doughty would be middling as an offensive guy. It's too bad, a big part of the problem is that the Kings just don't score. Here's how the Kings ranked offensively during Doughty's time, in order since 2009:
28th, 7th (Doughty's big offensive year), 21st, 29th, 9th (Doughty tied for 26th in scoring among D), 25th, 20th, 14th (Doughty's 2nd best offensive year), 25th.
He really hasn't gotten much help in scoring from his team, although you could say at the same time that he hasn't helped much himself. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
I don't expect anyone to give him credit for things he didn't do it. However, if you only look at playoffs for Worsley, I don't think he's too much worse than a guy like Belfour for example.
I don't think he'd supplant Worters as the starter come playoff time, but he can play a game or two if Ivan really needs it, and possibly even steal a game.
I agree that with a lot of these guys there is certainly a decent enough gap. It's just that I don't think the rankings really tell the real story. It isn't as simple as listing them linearly. If you were to actually rank the LWs, taking into account how much better they are compared to each other, it might actually look something like this:
1. Hull
3. Ovechkin
4. Lindsay
7. Mahovlich
8. Denneny
10. Kharlamov
...
30. Gottselig
30.5 Lewis
30.9 Northcott
..
41.1 Parise
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Yes, Olmstead is much better than Parise all around, I won't argue that. I was just showing that even Olmstead, as good as he is, isn't all that great offensively.
I think it's very wrong to just call him a weak scorer. He's a plus with his overall intangibles, and a significant plus at that. He's not elite in any specific area, but when you consider his intangibles as a complete package (physicality, leadership, defensive play, work ethic, etc.), he brings a lot to the table.
I didn't call him elite. I said great.
To be honest, I've never really bought into the idea of linearly "ranking" the defensive value of players. Take Steve Kasper for example. Not exactly the first guy that comes to mind when thinking of elite defensive players. However, he did as good a job as anyone at keeping Gretzky in check. How does he suddenly become average or above average or whatever you want to call it with that in mind?
He didn't face Gretzky every single game in real life, and it'll obviously be tougher for him to maintain that level of consistency from game to game in the ATD, but at his best, I see no reason why he's any worse than Carbonneau for example.
From the 30s era, who really comes to mind as a superior defensive player compared to Joliat? If we agree that Joliat was one of the best of his era defensively, and I'm not saying that we do, why does he suddenly become merely good in the ATD?
With scoring, it's pretty easy to create a pecking order because it's all numerical. With defensive play, not so much. If we did a study on this and found that the 50 best defensive players of all time suppressed offense at about the same rate, what do you do then? And this, by the way, is exactly what I'm suggesting - that defensive players come in tiers, and the difference between the players in each tier isn't really worth considering. I'd estimate that Joliat is in about the 3rd or 4th tier, pretty much just after where I'd put guys like Klukay, Pavelich, Leswick, etc.
Dreakmur
Registered User
I think you're really over-rating his abilities in those categories. In the NHL, during his career, he's probably better than average in all those categories, but not by a lot.
What is he in today's a NHL, an elite physical player? I would say not even close. Is he an elite defensive player? I would say not even close.
There's a difference between a responsible player and one that's good defensively. I see Parise as the former, not the latter.
There's a difference between a willing battler and one who could be called a puck-winner. I see Parise as the former, not the latter.
Namba 17
Registered User
- May 9, 2011
- 1,687
- 561
Coach: Barry Trotz
Captain Orr
Assistants Schmidt Chara
Alex Delvecchio-Milt Schmidt - Bryan Hextall Sr
Pete Mahovlich - Adam Oates- Peter Bondra
Daniel Sedin -Henrik Sedin-Tod Sloan
Harry Watson -Joel Otto -Dirk Graham
Dan Bain - Kent Nilsson -Bob Nystrom
Bobby Orr - Zdeno Chara
Jimmy Thomson -Gus Mortson
Rob Ramage- Wally Stanowski
Victor Hedman
Turk Broda, G
Roberto Louongo, G
Power Play
PP Unit 1
Delvecchio-Schmidt - Hextall
Orr Chara
PP Unit 2
Sedin-Sedin- Bondra
Stanowski- Oates
Penalty Kill
PK Unit1
Otto -Graham
Orr -Chara
PK Unit 2
Delvecchio-Schmidt
Thomson- Mortson
1st line. I like it - very good two-way line, that has everything you may ask for - toughness, power, scoring, passing, forecheck, backcheck. Very well constructed unit. No super-elite scorers, but you may live without them.
2-nd line. Another well-constructed line I like. Enough defense in Mahovlich and Oates, enough scoring from Bondra, great passer in Oates, enough secondary scoring from Mahovlich and Oates.
3-d line. Proved duo in Sedins, good fit for Sloan. Another scoring and two-way line.
4-th line. Very good 4th liner in Watson, nothing special in Otto and Graham. Average overall.
Spares - good enough.
1st pair. Very good - because of Orr. I think, that there were better D-men, you may put with Orr, where Chara was taken, but Chara is good enough 1-st pair guy. I just don't understand why did you make Orr LD? Any reasons for it?
2nd pair. Not the best here, but good enough, considering your great two-way forwards group.
3d pair. the same.
Spare - pretty poor, but who cares?
G - for your group of two-way forwards and good enough defense goaltending is not a problem, especially with your starting G.
PP good enough, but there are teams with much better ones.
PK-1 very good.
PK-2 nothing awful, but questionable.
Coach - definitely not the best one, so it wouldn't be your advantage, but his style fits your two-way squad really well. Hope, he will lean how to win in play-offs.
Very good team overall. (For a regular season)
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Namba 17
Registered User
- May 9, 2011
- 1,687
- 561
The Miami Screaming Eagles
Head Coach:Cecil Hart
Captain: Alf Smith
Assistant Captains: Ott Heller, Ed Litzenberger
Bobby Hull - Elmer Lach - Theo Fleury
Alexander Ovechkin - Dale Hawerchuk - Alf Smith
Rick Martin - Igor Larionov - Bill Guerin
Brad Marchand - Red Sullivan - Ed Litzenberger
Marcel Pronovost - Mark Howe
Allan Stanley- Ott Heller
Lloyd Cook-Brian Rafalski
Henrik Lundqvist
Tim Thomas
Spares
Forward: Ray Getliffe, Keith Primeau, Trevor Linden
Defense: Stefan Persson
PP1
Dale Hawerchuk – Theo Fleury
Alexander Ovechkin - Bobby Hull
Brian Rafalski
PP2
Elmer Lach – Bill Guerin
Ed Litzenberger- Rick Martin
Mark Howe
PK1
Red Sullivan– Theo Fleury
Allan Stanley – Ott Heller
PK2
Elmer Lach– Brad Marchand
Marcel Pronovost – Mark Howe
1st line. Very good. Really like Hull - Lach duo. Fleury here is good enough. Toughness, scoring, two-way - very good line.
2-nd. I expressed my opinion, I didn't change it - this line won't work. If you don't like Ovi- Geno comparison, I may bring Hull - Gretzky. Ovi needs Backstrom, Oates, Lach, Shadrin - that kind of players, but not Hawerchuk. Ovi needs great or at lest good defensively, pass-first C with great vision and good scoring abilities. For Ovi Havershuk will play with a puck for too long. Also, Havershuk is not good enough defensively as well as Smith for this particular line.
Ovechkin demands a line, that will be constructed specially for him, that's why he is pretty tough player to drat in the ATD.
3-d. Good, although you always wait to see some better scorers in one line with Larionov.
4-th. Average, Marchand is below average.
Spares - nothing special.
1-st pair - very good. Really like it, as well as what they may bring to your 1-st line.
2-nd - not bad, but, considering your 2-nd line, I doubt it will be enough
3-d - I don't think you need Rafalski with that forward group and Lloyd Cook as his LD. Questionable.
G. I like Henrik Lundqvist but he is not the best G here.
Considering team overall - great 1st line, great 1 pair, good 3-d line, but questionable 2-nd line and bottom 2 D-men. This makes goaltending critical but I doubt Lundqvist can steal enough games for you.
PP1 - could be the best, if not Fleury - I don't think, that he is good enough in the slot in ATD.
PP2 - Decent.
PK-1 Good.
PK-2 Average.
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