ATD 2016: Trades **See Post #5 Regarding OTC Trading Need Input**

[jarek]

Pretty simple, do you want trading during the draft or not?

**Subtract one vote from "Allow Trades" for Daeni10, not a GM or a forum regular**

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[BenchBrawl]

(mod) I vote in favor of allowing Trades.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

For teams with 2 GM's, please have only one person vote so all teams are represented equally.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Lets get the rest of the votes in.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

With 14 votes for trading it's looking like that option will win, although there is time for more teams to sign up and people to change their minds. However, I think it's at least worth it to start a second poll about trading on the clock. I want to give 3 options:

1. no trading on the clock
2. trading on the clock at any time
3. restricted trading on the clock.

I would like to get some input on what the restriction should be...for example, you can only trade during the first half of your clock, first quarter, etc. or you can only trade during the first 4 hours of your clock, 2 hours, etc.

Personally I like the first half of your clock rule. What do you guys think?

After I get some input I will start a poll. Unless I hear otherwise I think this is a fair way to do the poll: Everyone votes for one option, then we look at option 1 vs. the combined options 2&3 to determine if trading on the clock will be allowed. If trading on the clock wins, then all the votes for no trading on the clock will be given to option 3 to determine if there will be a restriction or not (this assumes if you want no trading on the clock at all then you would also be in favor of restricted trading over no restrictions given those are the only options). Does this sound fair?

Also, just to be clear trading when both teams are off the clock would of course be allowed.

Waiting to hear your comments

 

[jarek]

With 14 votes for trading it's looking like that option will win, although there is time for more teams to sign up and people to change their minds. However, I think it's at least worth it to start a second poll about trading on the clock. I want to give 3 options:

1. no trading on the clock
2. trading on the clock at any time
3. restricted trading on the clock.

I would like to get some input on what the restriction should be...for example, you can only trade during the first half of your clock, first quarter, etc. or you can only trade during the first 4 hours of your clock, 2 hours, etc.

Personally I like the first half of your clock rule. What do you guys think?

After I get some input I will start a poll. Unless I hear otherwise I think this is a fair way to do the poll: Everyone votes for one option, then we look at option 1 vs. the combined options 2&3 to determine if trading on the clock will be allowed. If trading on the clock wins, then all the votes for no trading on the clock will be given to option 3 to determine if there will be a restriction or not (this assumes if you want no trading on the clock at all then you would also be in favor of restricted trading over no restrictions given those are the only options). Does this sound fair?

Also, just to be clear trading when both teams are off the clock would of course be allowed.

Waiting to hear your comments

I was thinking about this recently and I think a good rule might actually be to ban trading of picks in the current round.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think that the trading rules for ATD2013 (the last draft for which we allowed trades) are a good starting point. I don't think there was nearly as much drama in that draft as previous drafts that allowed trading.

And yes, we allowed unlimited trading on the clock. If we prohibit it, GMs will just indirectly trade on the clock anyway (by trading the player they picked later).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I was thinking about this recently and I think a good rule might actually be to ban trading of picks in the current round.

Egads, so ban only the useful trades?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

These are the trade rules from ATD2013. I thought they worked better than any previous trade restrictions we had. Ban only the nonsense, not useful trading:

3). Trades

• Trading is to be reasonably fair and balanced and lopsided trades will need to be re-worked or dropped. This is at the discretion of the trade committee.
• Each team may make up to 8 trades.
• A submitted trade counts towards the maximum, even if it is vetoed (exception - first time GMs). Don't submit lopsided trades.
• No more than 4 assets per team may be traded at a time.
• Swapping all positions before the draft doesn't count as a "trade" for the purposes of the above rules.
• Trading while on the clock is allowed. However, using your entire clock to openly shop a pick annoys your fellow GMs, so do it sparingly. If GMs abuse trading on the clock, a rule could be added against it

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I was thinking about this recently and I think a good rule might actually be to ban trading of picks in the current round.

Egads, so ban only the useful trades?

Yeah no offense to you jarek, but that does not sound like very much fun. These are only 2 opinions though, let's hear what some others think.

 

[jarek]

Egads, so ban only the useful trades?

It was just a suggestion.

My alternative would just be to allow unlimited trading at any time. If you want to discourage OTC trading, just give a -1 hour clock penalty for OTC trades. Putting restrictions for OTC trades just seems too arbitrary.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It was just a suggestion.

My alternative would just be to allow unlimited trading at any time. If you want to discourage OTC trading, just give a -1 hour clock penalty for OTC trades. Putting restrictions for OTC trades just seems too arbitrary.

Good idea. The 2013 rules "OTC allowed, but we could make a rule against it if GMs are being annoying" worked fine - no GMs ended up being annoying with OTC trades that entire draft.

But if we HAVE to penalize them, giving the same penalty as you would give for missing a clock could be a way to go. Honestly, missing a clock is more annoying that OTC trades, anyway.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

It was just a suggestion.

My alternative would just be to allow unlimited trading at any time. If you want to discourage OTC trading, just give a -1 hour clock penalty for OTC trades. Putting restrictions for OTC trades just seems too arbitrary.

Personally I'd rather have unlimited trading, but I like your 1 hour penalty idea if we have to have something

 

[jarek]

Has any OTC trade ever been veto'd? I would say that could cause a huge problem if it happens. If we limit the amount of assets going either way to 2 per team for an OTC trade, it would substantially reduce the possibility of this happening.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Has any OTC trade ever been veto'd? I would say that could cause a huge problem if it happens. If we limit the amount of assets going either way to 2 per team for an OTC trade, it would substantially reduce the possibility of this happening.

I don't remember if it's happened before, but yes this would be annoying. I feel like it falls under the "don't be annoying to your fellow GMs category."

Personally I would not be in favor of the 2 asset limit when otc

 

[jarek]

I don't remember if it's happened before, but yes this would be annoying. I feel like it falls under the "don't be annoying to your fellow GMs category."

Personally I would not be in favor of the 2 asset limit when otc

Telling people not to be annoying who make a close trade that ends up getting veto'd doesn't actually help anything.

A possible solution would be to put the picked player on hold, and have the GMs work out another deal in the meantime.

 

[Elvis P]

...3. restricted trading on the clock...for example, you can only trade during the first half of your clock ...Personally I like the first half of your clock rule. ...

Agreed. I vote for your brilliant idea.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Telling people not to be annoying who make a close trade that ends up getting veto'd doesn't actually help anything.

A possible solution would be to put the picked player on hold, and have the GMs work out another deal in the meantime.

I didn't mean tell people not to be annoying would be the only thing to do, I just meant that as an alternative to the 2 asset limit. Trust in your fellow GMs to do the right thing instead of imposing a restriction.

A vetoed otc trade would be treated like any other vetoed trade. Trades will require approval as always, even when otc, so a player getting picked and then the trade vetoed after the fact would be rare. That would require a situation when one or two people approve the trade and then others come in after the fact and veto it.

 

[jarek]

I didn't mean tell people not to be annoying would be the only thing to do, I just meant that as an alternative to the 2 asset limit. Trust in your fellow GMs to do the right thing instead of imposing a restriction.

A vetoed otc trade would be treated like any other vetoed trade. Trades will require approval as always, even when otc, so a player getting picked and then the trade vetoed after the fact would be rare. That would require a situation when one or two people approve the trade and then others come in after the fact and veto it.

Fair enough.

 

[jarek]

Agreed. I vote for your brilliant idea.

I'm not a fan because I could see arguments cropping up about OTC trades that occur 10-15 minutes after the time expires, etc.

Or a GM announcing their are in negotiations to trade their pick an hour before the limit expires, then announcing the trade half an hour after it expires.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I'm not a fan because I could see arguments cropping up about OTC trades that occur 10-15 minutes after the time expires, etc.

Or a GM announcing their are in negotiations to trade their pick an hour before the limit expires, then announcing the trade half an hour after it expires.

Well let's be clear, there would be no extension for negotiations, you announce your trade before the limit or it's done, but you are right about the other complications.

In the end we have to go back to what TDMM said, GMs will find a way if they really want to...draft my guy for me and we'll make the trade later.

It would really be a lot easier to just allow trading on the clock without any limit (if the otc option wins).

 

[Rob Scuderi]

I almost think you have to allow some form of trading OTC (whether it's limited or not). Yeah it's annoying when someone just ahead of you decides to start shopping his/her pick when they're up, but it may be the best option depending on how the board shakes out.

 

[Johnny Engine]

I'm not going to make any pick-for-pick trades during the draft at all (would be open to making a hockey trade late in the game if the fit is there), and frankly they're more of an annoyance than anything else, but my ATD experience isn't ruined by others having the freedom to do so. Consider this a principled abstention.

 

[jarek]

Well let's be clear, there would be no extension for negotiations, you announce your trade before the limit or it's done, but you are right about the other complications.

In the end we have to go back to what TDMM said, GMs will find a way if they really want to...draft my guy for me and we'll make the trade later.

It would really be a lot easier to just allow trading on the clock without any limit (if the otc option wins).

So we go back to the idea of either allowing unlimited, unrestricted trading, or just penalizing OTC trades with a -1 hour clock limit. I'm really not a fan of OTC restrictions.. at all.

If someone takes their entire clock to trade a pick, just deal with it and move on. Leave a list and go do something else.

 

[ImporterExporter]

It's 15-5 in favor of allowing trading. I think it just needs to be a universal allowance of trades while on the clock and let's move on. Many here probably won't even engage in trading and I would hope that people aren't trying to make a deal every single time they come OTC....which shouldn't happen either.