ATD 2013 - Draft Thread V

[bluesfan94]

1). The draft will last 25 rounds. You must draft 2 goalies, 6 defensemen, 12 forwards, a coach and 4 extra picks.

Now on a 6 hour clock.

2). The time windows will be tight but reasonable.

• 12 hour clock for the first two rounds, (sending a shortlist to another GM highly encouraged here)
• then 10 hour clock for rounds 3-6,
• then 8 hour clock for rounds 7-14,
• then 6 hour clock for rounds 15-20,
• then 4 hour clock for rounds 21-25

One hour time window deduction for each skipped pick (two hour deduction for missing a 12 hour clock - leave a list), with a minimum 4 hour clock guaranteed regardless of deductions.

3). Trades

• Trading is to be reasonably fair and balanced and lopsided trades will need to be re-worked or dropped. This is at the discretion of the trade committee.
• Each team may make up to 8 trades.
• A submitted trade counts towards the maximum, even if it is vetoed (exception - first time GMs). Don't submit lopsided trades.
• No more than 4 assets per team may be traded at a time.
• Swapping all positions before the draft doesn't count as a "trade" for the purposes of the above rules.
• Trading while on the clock is allowed. However, using your entire clock to openly shop a pick annoys your fellow GMs, so do it sparingly. If GMs abuse trading on the clock, a rule could be added against it

4). At the conclusion of the draft, there will be a 10 day period for lineup assassinations. Assassinations will be divided by division.

5). Regular season rankings MUST BE VOTED ON by at least one GM (if the team is co-GM'd) per team. The penalty if not done is a potential lowering in the standings because each GM will rank his own team first. Co-GMs who both vote each get half a vote for the regular season rankings in their own division.

6). All Teams make the playoffs. Playoffs will be cross-divisional - Seed 1 will face Seed 4 from the adjacent division, and Seed 2 will face Seed 3 from the adjacent division.

7). REGULAR SEASON AND PLAYOFF VOTING TO BE A SET RESPONSIBILITY.

8). NO MENTIONING UNDRAFTED PLAYERS!!!

9). PM the next team after you have made your pick. THIS IS NOT OPTIONAL!

Deductions
markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks (228) -1 hour
jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds (243, 327, 398) -3 hours
papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles (270, 455, 506) -3 hours
velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters (318) - 1 hour
Dwight - West Island Lions (339) - 1 hour
Modo - Dawson City Nuggets (384) - 1 hour
Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings (395, 459, 523) - 3 hours
JFA 87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers (442) - 1 hour
Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos (458) - 1 hour
ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks*(468, 510) - 2 hours
nik jr - University of Alaska Nanooks (486) - 1 hour
vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans (518) - 1 hour
Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - 1 hour

ATD 2013 draft order:

Round 1

1. Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Bobby Orr, D
2. VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Gordie Howe, RW
3. Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Wayne Gretzky, C
4. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Mario Lemieux, C
5. Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Doug Harvey, D
6. Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Jean Beliveau, C
7. papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Nicklas Lidstrom, D
8. DoMakc - HC Donbass - Stan Mikita, C
9. Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Raymond Bourque, D
10. Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Denis Potvin, D
11. Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Eddie Shore, D
12. MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Bobby Hull, LW
13. Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Maurice Richard, RW
14. jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Bryan Trottier, C
15. monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Red Kelly, D/C
16. tony d - Baltimore Blades - Bobby Clarke, C
17. BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Jaromir Jagr, RW
18. vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Howie Morenz C
19. Dwight - West Island Lions - Dominik Hasek, G
20. ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Larry Robinson, D
21. BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Scott Stevens, D
22. nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Guy Lafleur, RW
23. Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Viacheslav Fetisov, D
24. EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Mark Messier, C/LW
25. overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Patrick Roy, G
26. Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Chris Chelios, D
27. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Jacques Plante, G
28. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Phil Esposito, C
29. markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Ted Lindsay, LW
30. BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Brad Park, D
31. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Terry Sawchuk, G
32. Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Joe Sakic, C

Round 2

33. Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Pierre Pilote, D
34. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Milt Schmidt, C
35. BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers Cyclone Taylor, C/D
36. Nalyd Psycho and Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Frank Nighbor, C/LW
37. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Paul Coffey, D
38. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Mike Bossy, RW
39. Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Steve Yzerman, C
40. overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Al MacInnis, D
41. EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Bill Cook, RW
42. Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Glenn Hall, G
43. nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Chris Pronger, D
44. BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Ken Dryden, G
45. ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Newsy Lalonde, C
46. Dwight - West Island Lions - King Clancy, D
47. vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Earl Seibert, D
48. BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Sprague Cleghorn, D
49. tony d - Baltimore Blades - Tim Horton, D
50. monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Frank Mahovlich, LW
51. jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Borje Salming, D
52. Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Dit Clapper, D/RW
53. MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Bill Gadsby, D
54. Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Syl Apps Sr, C
55. Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Martin Brodeur, G
56. Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Frank Boucher, C
57. DoMakc - HC Donbass - Jari Kurri, RW
58. papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Valeri Kharlamov, LW
59. Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Brian Leetch, D
60. markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Charlie Conacher, RW
61. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Valeri Vasiliev, D
62. Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Bernie Geoffrion, RW
63. VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Mark Howe, D
64. Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Henri Richard, C

Round 3

65. Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Dickie Moore, LW
66. VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Marcel Dionne, C
67. Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Bill Quackenbush, D
68. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Guy Lapointe, D
69. markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Ted Kennedy, C
70. Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Andy Bathgate, RW
71. papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Sergei Makarov, RW
72. DoMakc - HC Donbass - Serge Savard, D
73. Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Boris Mikhailov, RW
74. Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Peter Forsberg, C
75. Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Sidney Crosby, C
76. MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Sergei Fedorov, C
77. Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Alex Delvecchio, C/LW
78. jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Teemu Selanne, RW
79. monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Zdeno Chara, D
80. tony d - Baltimore Blades - Cy Denneny, LW
81. BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Vladislav Tretiak, G
82. vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Aurel Joliat, LW
83. Dwight - West Island Lions - Joe Malone, C
84. ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Rod Langway, D
85. BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Cam Neely, RW
86. nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Norm Ullman, C
87. Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Max Bentley, C
88. EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Jack Stewart, D
89. overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Elmer Lach, C
90. markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Eddie Gerard, D/LW
91. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Doug Gilmour, C
92. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Sid Abel, C/LW
93. Nalyd Psycho and Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Hooley Smith, C/RW
94. BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Alexander Ovechkin, LW
95. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Johnny Bucyk, LW
96. Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Clint Benedict, G

Round 4

97. Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Anatoli Firsov, LW
98. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - J.C Tremblay, D
99. BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Scott Niedermayer, D
100. Stoneberg and Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Doug Bentley, LW/C
101. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Frank Brimsek, G
102. BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Ron Francis, C
103. Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Brett Hull, RW
104. overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Toe Blake, LW
105. Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Dave Keon, C
106. Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Brendan Shanahan, LW
107. nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Peter Stastny, C
108. BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Gilbert Perreault, C
109. ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Turk Broda, G
110. Dwight - West Island Lions - Lionel Conacher, D
111. vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Jarome Iginla, RW
112. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Ching Johnson, D
113. tony d - Baltimore Blades - Adam Oates, C
114. monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Marcel Pronovost, D
115. Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Busher Jackson, LW
116. EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Eric Lindros, C
117. MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Pavel Bure, RW
118. Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Rob Blake, D
119. Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Butch Bouchard, D
120. jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Jacques Laperriere, D
121. DoMakc - HC Donbass - Ebbie Goodfellow, D/C
122. papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Dale Hawerchuk, C
123. Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Bert Olmstead, LW
124. papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Igor Larionov, C
125. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Johnny Bower, G
126. Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Michel Goulet, LW
127. VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Ernie "Moose" Johnson, D
128. Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Punch Broadbent, RW

Round 5

129. Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Bernie Parent, G
130. VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Larry Murphy, D
131. Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Georges Boucher, D
132. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Rick Middleton, RW
133. vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Hod Stuart, D
134. Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Alexei Kasatonov, D
135. MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Pavel Datsyuk, C
136. DoMakc - HC Donbass - Charlie Gardiner, G
137. jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Tommy Phillips, LW
138. Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Syd Howe, LW/C/D
139. Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Evgeni Malkin - C
140. Nalyd Psycho and Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Reg Noble, LW/D/C
141. EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Babe Siebert, D/LW
142. Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Roy Conacher, LW
143. monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Alexander Maltsev, C/RW
144. tony d - Baltimore Blades - Jan Suchy, D
145. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Carl Brewer, D
146. Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Lester Patrick, D
147. Dwight - West Island Lions - Yvan Cournoyer, RW
148. ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Bill Barber, LW
149. BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Vladimir Konstantinov, D
150. nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Harry Cameron, D
151. Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Bob Gainey, LW
152. Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Art Coulter D
153. overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Bill Cowley, C
154. markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Ken Reardon, D
155. BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Nels Stewart, C
156. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Tom Johnson, D
157. Nalyd Psycho and Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Fern Flaman, D
158. BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Joe Thornton, C
159. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Mickey MacKay, C/rover
160. Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Sylvio Mantha, D

Round 6

161. Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Mike Modano, C
162. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Bryan Hextall Sr, RW
163. BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Jean Ratelle, C
164. markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Denis Savard, C
165. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Bill White, D
166. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Woody Dumart, LW
167. Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Joe Primeau, C
168. overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Doug Wilson, D
169. EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Frantisek Pospisil, D
170. Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Vladimir Petrov, C
171. nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Ed Belfour, G
172. Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Georges Vezina, G
173. ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Sergei Zubov, D
174. Dwight - West Island Lions - Clark Gilles, LW
175. vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Bill Durnan, G
176. BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Harry Howell, D
177. tony d - Baltimore Blades - Rod Gilbert, RW
178. monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Marty Barry, C
179. papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Alexander Ragulin, D
180. BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Brian Propp, LW
181. Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Martin St. Louis, RW
182. Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Jacques Lemaire, C
183. Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Darryl Sittler, C
184. Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Jimmy Thomson, D
185. DoMakc - HC Donbass - Henrik Zetterberg, C/LW
186. Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Billy Smith, G
187. Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Sweeney Schriner, LW
188. MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Harvey Pulford, D
189. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - John LeClair, LW
190. Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Paul Kariya, LW
191. jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Pat Lafontaine, C
192. Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Babe Dye, RW

Round 7

193. Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Hap Day, D
194. VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Luc Robitaille, LW
195. Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Allan Stanley, D
196. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Mats Sundin, C
197. jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Jiri Holecek, G
198. Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Pat Stapleton, D
199. VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Bun Cook, LW
200. DoMakc - HC Donbass - Vladimir Martinec, RW
201. Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Eric Desjardins, D
202. Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Brad McCrimmon, D
203. Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Scotty Bowman, coach
204. MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Moose Vasko, D
205. EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Didier Pitre, RW/D
206. papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Vladimir Krutov, LW
207. monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Tony Esposito, G
208. tony d - Baltimore Blades - Roy Worters, G
209. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Frank Fredrickson, C
210. Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Frank Foyston, F
211. Dwight - West Island Lions - Mark Recchi, RW
212. ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Lanny McDonald, RW
213. overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senator - Art Ross, D
214. nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Patrick Elias, LW/C
215. Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Gary Suter, D
216. Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Tiny Thompson, G
217. BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Vladimir Lutchenko, D
218. Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Glenn Anderson, RW
219. BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Wayne Cashman, LW
220. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Ilya Kovalchuk, LW/RW
221. markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Mike Grant, D
222. BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Grant Fuhr, G
223. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Vaclav Nedomansky, RW
224. Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Ace Bailey, RW

Round 8

225 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Si Griffis, D
226 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Herb Gardiner, D
227 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Lionel Hitchman, D
228 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Theo Fleury, RW
229 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Daniel Alfredsson, RW
230 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Paul Thompson, LW
231. vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Sergei Gonchar, D
232 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Claude Provost, RW
233 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Rick Martin, LW
234 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Guy Carbonneau, C
235 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Ott Heller, D
236 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Marian Hossa, RW
237 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Jere Lehtinen, LW/RW
238 Dwight - West Island Lions - Bob Baun, D
239 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Russell Bowie - C
240 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Rod Brind'Amour - C/LW
241 tony d - Baltimore Blades - Red Horner - D
242 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Gordon Keats, C
243 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Esa Tikkanen, LW/RW
244 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Toe Blake, Coach
245 markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Henrik Sedin, C
246 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Gary Roberts, LW
247 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Markus Naslund, LW
248 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Helmut Balderis, RW
249 DoMakc - HC Donbass - Doug Mohns, D/LW
250 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Vyacheslav Starshinov, C
251 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Bernie Morris, C/RW
252 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Baldy Northcott, LW
253 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Alex Mogilny, RW
254 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Cecil Dillon, RW
255 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Tommy Dunderdale, C
256 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets -Derian Hatcher, D

Round 9

257 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Joe Nieuwendyk, C
258 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Hugh Lehman, G
259 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Gump Worsley, G
260 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - John Tonelli, LW
261. jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Zigmund Palffy, RW
262 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Steve Larmer, RW
263 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Cy Wentworth, D
264 DoMakc - HC Donbass - Jim Neilson, D
265 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Bob Pulford, C/LW
266 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Flash Hollett, D
267 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Alexander Yakushev, LW
268 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Jack Crawford, D
269 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Jean-Guy Talbot, D
270. papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Babe Pratt, D
271 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Craig Ramsay, LW
272 tony d - Baltimore Blades - Dean Prentice, LW
273 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Bill Mosienko, RW
274 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Leo Boivin, D
275 Dwight - West Island Lions - Bernie Federko, C
276 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Frank McGee, C
277 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Gus Mortson, D
278 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Steve Shutt, LW
279 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Daniel Sedin, LW
280 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Alf Smith, LW/RW
281 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Phil Watson, C/RW
282 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Jack Walker, F
283 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Phil Housley, D
284 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - George Armstrong, RW
285 markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - George Hainsworth G
286 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Joe Mullen, RW
287 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - "Bullet" Joe Simpson, D
288 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist- Joe Hall, D

Round 10

289 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Dick Duff, LW
290 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Adam Foote, D
291 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Danny Gare, RW
292 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Keith Tkachuk, LW/C
293 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Tony Leswick, LW/RW
294 markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Bobby Rousseau, RW
295 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Jim Schoenfeld, D
296 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Kevin Lowe, D
297 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Walt Tkaczuk, C
298 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Dany Heatley, LW/RW
299 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks- Mike Ramsey, D
300 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules- Ralph Backstrom, C
301 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks- Terry Harper, D
302 Dwight - West Island Lions- Brad Richards, C
303 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans- Bob Goldham, D
304 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers- Dan Boyle, D
305 tony d - Baltimore Blades- Peter Bondra, RW
306 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares- Ed Westfall, RW
307 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds- Rob Ramage, D
308 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys- Jimmy Watson, D
309 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Ted Green, D
310 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings- Rick Tocchet, RW
311 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos- Dino Ciccarelli, RW
312 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Jeremy Roenick, C
313 DoMakc - HC Donbass - Leo Reise, Jr., D
314. VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears-Bobby Bauer, RW
315 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club- Frank Patrick, D
316 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers- Mike Peca, C
317 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Randy Carlyle, D
318 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters- Marty Pavelich, LW
319. papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles- Ken Hodge, RW
320 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets- Wendel Clark, LW

Round 11

321 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Kirk Muller, LW/C
322 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears-Herbie Lewis, LW
323 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters- Mike Gartner, RW
324 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs- Shea Weber, D
325 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints- Dave Burrows, D
326 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Neil Colville, C/D
327. jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Brian Rafalski, D
328 DoMakc - HC Donbass- Don Mckenney, C/LW
329 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens- Joe Klukay, W
330 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos- Odie Cleghorn, RW
331 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings-Nick Metz, LW
332 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers- Al Arbour, Coach
333 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys- Pit Lepine, C
334 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Doug Jarvis, C
335 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Vincent Damphousse, C/LW
336 tony d - Baltimore Blades - Craig Hartsburg, D
337 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Bert Corbeau, D
338 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - George Hay, LW
339 Dwight - West Island Lions - Frank Finnigan, RW
340 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks- Rick Macleish, C
341 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules- Tim Kerr, RW
342 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks- Tommy Ivan, Coach
343 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs- Claude Lemieux, RW
344 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec- Sid Smith, LW
345 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators- Dave Taylor, RW
346 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Lester Patrick, Coach
347 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Art Duncan, D
348 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Barry Beck, D
349 markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Harry Watson, LW
350 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Vitaly Davydov, D
351 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers- Gordon Roberts, LW
352 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist- Jack Adams, C/LW

Round 12

353 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears-Cooney Weiland, C
354 VanIslander & Hedberg- Hershey Bears- Larry Aurie, RW
355 markrander87 - Cincinatti Fireworks- Lennart Svedberg, D
356 Nalyd Psycho and Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints- Pete Mahovlich, C
357 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Milan Novy, C
358 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Kevin Stevens, LW
359 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Red Dutton, D
360 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Dave Andreychuk, LW
361 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Gordie Drillion, RW
362 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Ulf Samuelsson, D
363 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Steven Stamkos, C
364 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Dave Poulin, C
365 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Nikolai Sologubov, D
366 Dwight - West Island Lions - Pat Egan, D
367 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans- Vic Stasiuk, W
368 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers-Rick Nash, LW
369 tony d - Baltimore Blades- Brent Sutter, C
370 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares- Teppo Numminen, D
371 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds- Owen Nolan, RW
372 Velociraptor- Trail Smoke Eaters- Phil Goyette,C
373 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers-Johnny Gottselig, LW
374 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings-Bill Guerin, RW
375 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos-Derek Sanderson, C
376 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens- Don Luce, C
377 DoMakc - HC Donbass- Jean Pronovost, RW
378 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles -Rene Robert, RW
379 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils- Lloyd Cook,D
380 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers- Eddie Oatman, RW/D
381 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Mike Babcock, coach
382 Murphy and gmm - Edmonton Mercurys- Ed Litzenberger, C/RW
383 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist- Joel Otto, C
384 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets- Charlie Simmer, LW

Round 13

385 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets- Reggie Leach, RW
386 JFA 87-66-99- Pittsburgh Bankers- Vladimir Shadrin, C
387 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters- Glen Harmon, D
388 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs- Dale Hunter, C
389 Hawkey Town 18- Chicago Shamrocks- Bob Nevin, RW
390 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils- Ken Mosdell, C
391 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Ted Harris, D
392 DoMakc - HC Donbass - Bruce Stuart, F
393 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Shane Doan - RW/LW
394 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Edgar Laprade, C
395 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - John Madden, C/LW
396 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers- Reed Larson, D
397 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys- Don Marshall, LW
398 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds- Eric Staal, C
399 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares- Rusty Crawford, LW/C
400 tony d - Baltimore Blades- Dirk Graham, RW
401 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers- Fred Shero, Coach
402 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans-Anatoli Tarasov, Coach
403 Dwight - West Island Lions- Fleming Mackell, C/LW
404 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks- Blair Russell, C/RW
405 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules- Smokey Harris, LW
406 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Don Marcotte, F
407 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Paul Reinhart, D
408 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads-Ron Ellis, RW
409 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators- Marian Gaborik, RW
410 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads- Carol Vadnais, D
411 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas- Minnesota Fighting Saints- Reijo Ruotsalinen, D
412 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Gary Bergman, D
413 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints- Jiri Holik, LW
414 markrander87 - Cincinatti Fireworks - Bill Hajt, D
415 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Harry Westwick, F
416 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist- Eduard Ivanov, D

Round 14

417 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist- Trevor Linden, C/RW
418 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers- Jack Marshall, F/D
419 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers- Butch Goring, C
420 markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks- Gennady Tsygankov, D
421 vecens24 and dreakmur- Mystery Alaskans-Pierre Turgeon, C
422 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks- Ivan Hlinka, C
423 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads- Dave Balon, LW
424 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Brian Sutter, LW
425 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Tom Barrasso, G
426 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Ken Morrow, D
427 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Harry Hyland, RW
428 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Albert Leduc, D
429 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Dick Irvin, Sr., Coach
430 Dwight - West Island Lions - Bob Bourne, C
431 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Glen Sather, Coach
432 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Craig Ludwig, D
433 tony d - Baltimore Blades - Steve Smith, D
434 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Jack Darragh, RW
435 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Bobby Holik, C
436 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Lars-Erik Sjoberg, D
437 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Harry Lumley, G
438 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Sandis Ozolinsh, D
439 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Bob Nystrom, RW
440 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Tony Amonte, RW
441 DoMakc - HC Donbass - Adam Graves, LW
442 JFA 87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Viktor Kuzkin, D
443 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Chuck Rayner, G
444 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Keith Magnuson, D
445 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Tod Sloan, C/RW
446 GMM and Murphy - Edmonton Mercurys - Vic Hadfield, LW
447 JFA 87-66-99- Pittsburgh Bankers - Tommy Smith, C/LW
448 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Pat Verbeek, RW

Round 15

449 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Clarency "Taffy" Abel, D
450 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Eric Nesterenko, RW
451 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Bobby Smith, C
452 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Gaye Stewart, LW
453 Hawkeytown18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Gilles Tremblay, LW
454 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Jim Pappin, RW
455 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Hap Holmes, G
456 DoMakc - HC Donbass - Duncan Keith, D
457 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Tommy Gorman, coach
458 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Mats Naslund, LW
459 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Dallas Smith, D
460 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Graham Drinkwater, D
461 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Floyd Curry, RW
462 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Ken Daneyko, D
463 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Barclay Plager, D
464 tony d - Baltimore Blades - J.P. Parise, LW
465 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Dion Phaneuf, D
466 The DevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Jerry Toppazzini, RW
467 Dwight - West Island Lions - Doug Risebrough, C
468 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Vincent Lecavalier, C
469 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Stefan Persson, D
470 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Hap Day, Coach
471 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Bengt-Ã…ke Gustafsson, RW
472 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Fred Stanfield, C/LW
473 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Ken Hitchcock, Coach
474 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Frantisek Tikal, D
475 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Keith Primeau - C
476 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Red Berenson, C/LW
477 Markrander87 - Cincinatti Fireworks - Patrick Marleau - C/LW
478 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Kevin Hatcher, D
479 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Jack Adams, Coach
480 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Bob Johnson, Coach

Round 16

481 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Johnny Peirson, RW
482 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - George McNamara, D
483 markrander87- Cincinatti Fireworks - Wilf Paiement, RW
484 markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Steve Kasper, C
485 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Cecil Hart, Coach
486 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Vladimir Vikulov, RW/C
487 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Curtis Joseph, G
488 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Ken Wharram, RW
489 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Eddie Giacomin, G
490 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - James Patrick, D
491 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - John MacLean, RW
492 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Brian Rolston, C/LW
493 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Craig MacTavish
494 Dwight - West Island Lions - Jerry Korab, D
495 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Yuri Liapkin, D
496 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Bernie Nicholls, C
497 tony d - Baltimore Blades - Pat Burns, Coach
498 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Punch Imlach, Coach
499 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Kent Nilsson, C/RW
500 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Terry O'Reilly, RW
501 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Dan Bain, C
502 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Zinetula Bilyaletdinov, D
503 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Jamie Macoun, D
504 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Troy Murray, C
505 DoMakc - HC Donbass - Jacques Lemaire, Coach
506 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Hec Kilrea, LW
507 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Thomas Steen, C
508 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - John McKenzie, RW
509 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Hobey Baker, D
510 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Kris Draper, C
511 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Hamby Shore, D
512 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Metro Prystai, C

Round 17

513 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Al Iafrate, D
514 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Doug Weight C
515 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Dollard St. Laurent, D
516 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Wally Stanowski, D
517 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Pete Green, Coach
518 vecens24 and dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Rod Seiling, D
519 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Viktor Tikhonov, Coach
520 DoMakc - HC Donbass - Larry Robinson, Assistant Coach
521 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Mario Tremblay, RW
522 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Jan Erixon, LW
523 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Tim Thomas, G
524 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Robert Svehla, D
525 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Juri Bubla, D
526 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Kimmo Timonen, D
527 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Murray Oliver, C
528 tony d - Baltimore Blades - Jonathan Toews, C
529 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Kelly Miller, LW
530 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Red Sullivan, C
531 Dwight - West Island Lions - Yvon Lambert, LW
532 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Garry Cheevers, G
533 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Tom Lysiak, C/LW
534 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Ryan Kesler, C
535 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Simon Gagne, LW
536 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Mel Bridgman, C/LW
537 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Ron Stackhouse, D
538 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Percy Galbraith, LW
539 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Murray Murdoch, C/LW
540 vecens24 and dreakmur- Mystery Alaskans - Pavol Demitra, C/W
541 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Bob Armstrong, D
542 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Mike Richards, C
543 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Marty Walsh, C
544 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Al Secord, LW

Round 18

545 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Steve Duchesne, D
546 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Bucko McDonald, D
547 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Gregg Sheppard, C/LW
548 markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Rogie Vachon, G
549 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Roger Neilson, Coach
550 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Vasili Pervukhin, D
551 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Percy LeSueur, G
552 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Patrice Bergeron, C
553 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Orland Kurtenbach, C
554 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Jacques Demers, Coach
555 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Craig Conroy, C
556 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Reggie Fleming - F/D
557 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Ross Lonsberry, LW
558 Dwight - West Island Lions - Don Awrey, D
559 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Bill Thoms, C
560 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Kevin Dineen, RW
561 tony d - Baltimore Blades - Phil Russell, D
562 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Andrei Markov, D
563 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Anders Hedberg, RW
564 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - John Vanbiesbrouck, G
565 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Mike Liut, G
566 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Oldrich Machac, D
567 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Glen Wesley, D
568 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - OTC until 12:22PM EST
569 DoMakc - HC Donbass
570 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles
571 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club
572 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints
573 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
574 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters
575 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears
576 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets

Round 19

577 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets
578 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears
579 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters
580 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
581 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints
582 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club
583 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles
584 DoMakc - HC Donbass
585 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens
586 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos
587 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings
588 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers
589 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys
590 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds
591 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares
592 tony d - Baltimore Blades
593 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers
594 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans
595 Dwight - West Island Lions
596 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks
597 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules
598 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks
599 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs
600 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec
601 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators
602 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads
603 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks
604 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils
605 BillyShoe1721- Philadelphia Flyers
606 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers
607 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers
608 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist

Round 20

609 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist
610 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears
611 markrander87 - Cincinatti Fireworks
612 markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks
613 vecens24 and dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans
614 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks
615 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads
616 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators
617 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec
618 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs
619 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks
620 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules
621 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks
622 Dwight - West Island Lions
623 TheDevilMadeMe-New Jersey Swamp Devils
624 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers
625 tony d - Baltimore Blades
626 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares
627 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds
628 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys
629 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers
630 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings
631 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos
632 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens
633 DoMakc - HC Donbass
634 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles
635 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club
636 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints
637 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
638 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters
639 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears
640 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets

Round 21

641 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets
642 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears
643 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters
644 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
645 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints
646 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club
647 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles
648 DoMakc - HC Donbass
649 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens
650 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos
651 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings
652 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers
653 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys
654 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds
655 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares
656 tony d - Baltimore Blades
657 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers
658 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans
659 Dwight - West Island Lions
660 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks
661 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules
662 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks
663 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs
664 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec
665 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators
666 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads
667 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks
668 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils
669 markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks
670 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers
671 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers
672 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist

Round 22

673 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist
674 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers
675 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers
676 markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks
677 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils
678 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks
679 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads
680 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators
681 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec
682 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs
683 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks
684 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules
685 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks
686 Dwight - West Island Lions
687 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans
688 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers
689 tony d - Baltimore Blades
690 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares
691 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds
692 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys
693 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers
694 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings
695 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos
696 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens
697 DoMakc - HC Donbass
698 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles
699 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club
700 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints
701 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
702 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters
703 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist
704 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets

Round 23

705 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets
706 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears
707 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters
708 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
709 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints
710 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club
711 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles
712 DoMakc - HC Donbass
713 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens
714 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos
715 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings
716 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers
717 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys
718 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds
719 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares
720 tony d - Baltimore Blades
721 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers
722 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans
723 Dwight - West Island Lions
724 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks
725 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules
726 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks
727 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs
728 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec
729 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators
730 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads
731 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks
732 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils
733 markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks
734 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers
735 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers
736 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist

Round 24

737 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears
738 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers
739 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers
740 markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks
741 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils
742 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks
743 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads
744 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators
745 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec
746 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs
747 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks
748 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules
749 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks
750 Dwight - West Island Lions
751 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans
752 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers
753 tony d - Baltimore Blades
754 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares
755 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds
756 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys
757 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers
758 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings
759 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos
760 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens
761 DoMakc - HC Donbass
762 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles
763 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club
764 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints
765 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
766 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters
767 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears
768 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets

Round 25

769 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets
770 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears
771 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters
772 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
773 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints
774 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club
775 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles
776 DoMakc - HC Donbass
777 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens
778 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos
779 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings
780 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers
781 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys
782 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds
783 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares
784 tony d - Baltimore Blades
785 BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers
786 vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans
787 Dwight - West Island Lions
788 ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks
789 BubbaBoot - Boston Mules
790 nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks
791 Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs
792 EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec
793 overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators
794 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads
795 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks
796 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils
797 markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks
798 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers
799 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers
800 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears

-
Full draft order trades:

- Jafar 3rd - Velociraptor 9th
7 Dwight - West Island Lions / 19 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles
29 Stoneberg Halifax Mooseheads / 26. markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks

Click to read more...

 

[Sturminator]

Given the wackiness of 1989:

1. Mario Lemieux*-PIT 199
2. Wayne Gretzky*-LAK 168
3. Steve Yzerman*-DET 155
4. xxxxxx-LAK 150
5. xxxxxx-PIT 115

I think it's reasonable to use #5 as the standard. If so, you have (88/115 = 77) meaning Turgeon's 52 turns to a 77. That would give you:

89, 85, 82, 80, 78, 78, 77, 77, 75, 70, 69, 67, 61

1989 is a strange year. It is almost as bad as 1970-71, where there is a good argument for using the #4 scorer as there is a greater than 10% gap between #2 and #3 and between #3 and #4. But that was the peak of Bruinsmania. 1989...outliers distributed over three teams? xxxxxxx an outlier? I don't buy it. If Gretzky was such an outlier why was Yzerman right there with him? And if Gretzky wasn't such an outlier, why should we think xxxxxxx was?

A rule is what it is. Dreak says he followed it, and he clearly didn't.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

When did we bypass the undrafteds rule?!

 

[Dr Pepper]

I think Sturm fixed it right before I did

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

1989 is a strange year. It is almost as bad as 1970-71, where there is a good argument for using the #4 scorer as there is a greater than 10% gap between #2 and #3 and between #3 and #4. But that was the peak of Bruinsmania. 1989...outliers distributed over three teams? XXX an outlier? I don't buy it. If Gretzky was such an outlier why was Yzerman right there with him? And if Gretzky wasn't such an outlier, why should we think XXX was?

Yzerman and XXX have the 1st and 3rd highest non-Gretzky/Lemieux seasons of all-time and they were both in 1989. And 1989 isn't like 1993, where every first liner in the league scored a crap ton - it really was just the 4 on top. I'm really not comfortable using a 150 point season as the standard, when nobody outside the top 4 came close.

There was a poll on the history board recently comparing Yzerman's 1989 with Jagr's 1999 and the consensus (well, among all but the "older is always better crowd") was that it was pretty close.

A rule is what it is. Dreak says he followed it, and he clearly didn't.

I think "VS2, unless there is a difference of 10% or more anywhere in the top 5" is a perfectly legitimate rule and takes care of 1989 without having to fudge anything.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

When did we bypass the undrafteds rule?!

Ugh, I really don't see the point of the rule when we are just copying and pasting scoring tables from hockey-reference.com (a far cry from "I can't believe there is such a talented right winger available right now!"), but I edited my post.

 

[Dreakmur]

A rule is what it is. Dreak says he followed it, and he clearly didn't.

If you're talking about the 10% rule, you missed out too. In 1997, 109 is 110.1% of 99, which breaks that 10% threshold.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If you're talking about the 10% rule, you missed out too. In 1997, 109 is 110.1% of 99, which breaks that 10% threshold.

99 is 91% of 109, and therefore only 9% less.

I think most of us would consider the difference between 90 and 100 to be 10%, so the difference between 99 and 109 would be less than that.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think it's reasonable to use 5th place as the standard. If so, you have (88/115 = 77) meaning Turgeon's 52 turns to a 77. That would give you:

89, 85, 82, 80, 78, 78, 77, 77, 75, 70, 69, 67, 61

Dreakmur's numbers were:

89, 87, 86, 85, 83, 80, 80, 78, 75, 70, 70, 67, 61, 52


So that still doesn't match.

These vs 2, 5, outliers, percentages blah blah numbers are getting annoying when everyone does their own thing with them.

 

[Dreakmur]

99 is 91% of 109, and therefore only 9% less.

I think most of us would consider the difference between 90 and 100 to be 10%, so the difference between 99 and 109 would be less than that.

What way does the comparison go? Are we comparing 99 to 109 or 109 to 99?

99/109 = 0.908
109/99 = 1.101

 

[Sturminator]

I think "VS2, unless there is a difference of 10% or more anywhere in the top 5" is a perfectly legitimate rule and takes care of 1989 without having to fudge anything.

You're probably right. I just have a hard time believing that the #4 scorer in 1989 was actually an outlier. Maybe it was just a great season for him? Or maybe Gretzky was such an enormous outlier that year with middling talent around him in LA that he made one of his teammates an outlier (which otherwise never happened)? I dunno.

 

[Sturminator]

Dreakmur's numbers were:

89, 87, 86, 85, 83, 80, 80, 78, 75, 70, 70, 67, 61, 52


So that still doesn't match.

These vs 2, 5, outliers, percentages blah blah numbers are getting annoying when everyone does their own thing with them.

Yes, well...dreak also counts Ted Green getting a single Norris vote as a top-10 season. One person's sloppy work doesn't discredit the system, though this incident is a good example of why we need some sort of agreed-upon standard for generating these numbers. I have been clear about my system, and I think it's the one that most people use. I still have no idea how dreak generated his numbers, but they are wildly incorrect based upon the standard that he claims to have used.

Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What way does the comparison go? Are we comparing 99 to 109 or 109 to 99?

99/109 = 0.908
109/99 = 1.101

I think it's something of a convention to divide the lower number by the higher number when telling the difference between them. A goal of a system like this should be to remove as few "outliers" as possible if you want the system to remain coherent.

(Of course, if you use Vs5, you never have to worry about outliers, but Vs5 supposedly gives really weird results for forwards who played in the shallow 1940s and early 50s, so people don't like using it).

 

[Sturminator]

What way does the comparison go? Are we comparing 99 to 109 or 109 to 99?

99/109 = 0.908
109/99 = 1.101

You know, I already addressed exactly this case when discussing Paul Kariya. I guess you missed it. I divide the lower number by the higher number. Not that this red herring explains your strange data.

 

[Dreakmur]

Yes, well...dreak also counts Ted Green getting a single Norris vote as a top-10 season.

Well, it was a top-10 season...

People can count it however they want. It's not my fault 1 vote was enough to get him into the top-10.

 

[seventieslord]

I happen to think that the Tin Man thing is a little overblown but I certainly wouldn't be counting on him for anything outside of the "easy" points.

And by easy I don't mean in execution (he was very talented) I mean the ones where you don't have to pay a price to get them.

He picked his spots even if we've recently tried to revise that for some reason.

So the points that you “pay the price†for are somehow worth more on the scoreboard? Can you explain that one?

The softness thing is really overblown for Turgeon, and for a lot of players. Value for toughness is already included in the point totals in a lot of cases. A guy like Neely made more room for himself on the ice, and his ability to go right through a defender certainly led to more points. But we look at his point totals and then give him bonuses for being tough and physical. Turgeon, on the other hand, if it was true that he could be taken off his game by cracking a loud fart within 10 feet of him, then he’d be expected to score fewer points when “off his gameâ€, therefore his softness is mostly accounted for in his point totals already. But we look at his point totals and then downplay them because he was soft. Doesn’t seem right.

...which are very good, most similar to Roenick, though a bit better. Nevertheless, a far cry from the numbers you posted.

Much better when you get beyond the best 5 seasons. Turgeon was a much better producer than Roenick.

What an awful play that was. Nevertheless, when deciding who was the more valuable player, it would be hard for me to choose between Turgeon and Hunter.

I don’t have a problem seeing Hunter get selected before Turgeon in an ATD setting because he is potentially a very good 3rd liner and Turgeon an OK 2nd liner. But he was in no way better or more valuable.

Bullsh!t. Mine are the Vs2 numbers with #2 outliers eliminated when there is more than a 10% gap between #2 and #3. Your definition of outlier is evidently as soft as your second line center.

I know which system you're using. You're using seventies' ridiculous system in which Gretzky, Lemieux, their grandmothers and everyone they ever skated with are automatically removed, and then another player is removed (as the theoretical non-G/L world #1 scorer), and then the percentages are compared. This is a terrible system...so bad seventies has hardly bothered to defend it, because he's smart enough to understand what a trainwreck it really is.

Must I always check your numbers, dreak?

That’s kinda rude, don’t you think? Talking to dreakmur as though he was posting falsehoods. When (by your understanding at the time) he was using a system that is not “false†but simply a different interpretation of the same data – which, I should note again, was not used for the purpose of boosting any specific player or group of players.

Sedin holds his own. Playmaking finishes are off the charts (especially if we're factoring in this season in a month as well).

“Playmaking finishes†should not be a thing here. Points matter so much more, and let’s face it, they already give somewhat disproportionate credit for assists while forgiving abysmal goal scorers like Henrik.

Given the wackiness of 1989:

1. Mario Lemieux*-PIT 199
2. Wayne Gretzky*-LAK 168
3. Steve Yzerman*-DET 155
4. XXX-LAK 150
5. XXX-PIT 115

I think it's reasonable to use 5th place as the standard. If so, you have (88/115 = 77) meaning Turgeon's 52 turns to a 77. That would give you:

89, 85, 82, 80, 78, 78, 77, 77, 75, 70, 69, 67, 61

Absolutely. A couple more of those seasons look off, too. We’re really going to call Lafontaine’s 148 points the standard for 1993?

What I will still never grasp (and this doesn’t apply to the seasons we’re looking at for the most part) is why we wouldn’t remove players whose point totals were greatly inflated by Gretzky and Lemieux. Kurri and Coffey immediately stand out as players who would not have occupied the #2-4 spots without Wayne, yet we end up using them as the standard some seasons under the system you and Sturm are championing. Doesn’t seem the least bit fair, particularly to forwards who were every bit as talented as Kurri but had no hope of posting his point totals.

What I’d like to see from you or Sturm, is a season-by-season breakdown of how many players reached each threshold under your systems (say, 90, 85, 80, 75, 70, 65) – it should not take too long. If what you guys are saying makes sense then the number of players at a certain level should increase slightly over time and follow the general paradigms we hold about the increase of the talent pool size and influx of European talent since 1980. Basically, it should make some visual sense. But I suspect what we’ll see is a system where 90s players are disproportionately credited (since all years are painted with pretty much the same brush regardless of whether there were 0, 1 or 2 generational talents) and what puzzles me about this is that Sturm lambasted me a couple of drafts ago for suggesting that hockey got gradually better from the 80s to the 90s (and therefore the number of players reaching certain percentages should be expected to gradually rise) – I believe what he ultimately concluded was that all the European and American stars just barely made up for the drastic decline in Canadian stars - if this percentage system flies in the face of what he seems to firmly believe, why is he pushing it so much, and why would he not be open to tweaks that provide more “realistic†results?

These vs 2, 5, outliers, percentages blah blah numbers are getting annoying when everyone does their own thing with them.

Complaining at every opportunity about the ways other people evaluate players, on the other hand… not annoying at all!

I think it's something of a convention to divide the lower number by the higher number when telling the difference between them

Since when? If someone asked me what’s the perentage difference between 150 and 165, I’d say “165 is exactly 10% greater than 150â€.

 

[DoMakc]

Since when? If someone asked me what’s the percentage difference between 150 and 165, I’d say “165 is exactly 10% greater than 150â€.

How is it relevant in this case where the question is "Is 150 10% lower than 165?"

 

[Sturminator]

That’s kinda rude, don’t you think? Talking to dreakmur as though he was posting falsehoods. When (by your understanding at the time) he was using a system that is not “false†but simply a different interpretation of the same data – which, I should note again, was not used for the purpose of boosting any specific player or group of players.

But he was posting falsehoods. Or can you explain how he got those numbers?

Please excuse my manners, but I consider posting blatantly false information rather impolite. It undermines the integrity of everything we do here.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Absolutely. A couple more of those seasons look off, too. We’re really going to call Lafontaine’s 148 points the standard for 1993?

Why wouldn't you? It's pretty clearly not an outlier in the context of 1992-93 scoring.

1. Mario Lemieux*-PIT 160
2. Pat LaFontaine*-BUF 148
3. Adam Oates*-BOS 142
4. Steve Yzerman*-DET 137
5. Pierre Turgeon-NYI 132
Teemu Selanne-WIN 132

If you're not using Lafontaine's 2nd place finish in 1992-93, you might as well throw the whole "Versus 2" thing in the garbage.

What I will still never grasp (and this doesn’t apply to the seasons we’re looking at for the most part) is why we wouldn’t remove players whose point totals were greatly inflated by Gretzky and Lemieux. Kurri and Coffey immediately stand out as players who would not have occupied the #2-4 spots without Wayne, yet we end up using them as the standard some seasons under the system you and Sturm are championing. Doesn’t seem the least bit fair, particularly to forwards who were every bit as talented as Kurri but had no hope of posting his point totals.

I understand what you're saying, but the counterargument is that by removing more top players from the NHL, you are now artificially inflating the scores of the players you think were hurt before.

Since when? If someone asked me what’s the percentage difference between 150 and 165, I’d say “165 is exactly 10% greater than 150”.

I guess. Either way, I don't think we should go out of our way to search for outliers in this thing.

 

[markrander87]

I'm surprised people take the time to skim through that block of text. You know what Assists equal? Goals by linemates....

People who have played hockey understand the importance of a great playmaker. A guy who creates offense for the rest of his linemates..A guy who makes the players around him better.

Why would any type of method comparing players not include assist totals LOL.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm surprised people take the time to skim through that block of text. You know what Assists equal? Goals by linemates....

People who have played hockey understand the importance of a great playmaker. A guy who creates offense for the rest of his linemates..A guy who makes the players around him better.

Why would any type of method comparing players not include assist totals LOL.

"Points" already include assists.

 

[BraveCanadian]

So the points that you “pay the price” for are somehow worth more on the scoreboard? Can you explain that one?

You know exactly what I mean.

When the game is on the line do you want Gilmour or do you want Turgeon?

Turgeon is the more purely talented of the two for sure. His production is probably better too.

I know which one I would pick and it isn't close.

The softness thing is really overblown for Turgeon, and for a lot of players. Value for toughness is already included in the point totals in a lot of cases. A guy like Neely made more room for himself on the ice, and his ability to go right through a defender certainly led to more points. But we look at his point totals and then give him bonuses for being tough and physical. Turgeon, on the other hand, if it was true that he could be taken off his game by cracking a loud fart within 10 feet of him, then he’d be expected to score fewer points when “off his game”, therefore his softness is mostly accounted for in his point totals already. But we look at his point totals and then downplay them because he was soft. Doesn’t seem right.

It is accounted for in Turgeon never going anywhere because when the intensity goes up, he took his game down a notch.

Much better when you get beyond the best 5 seasons. Turgeon was a much better producer than Roenick.

I'll have to remember that longevity actually *does* count when the obvious and expected attacks on Francis come up later.

I know one of the arguments you have used against him in the past is "who cares what he did past x years?"

I don’t have a problem seeing Hunter get selected before Turgeon in an ATD setting because he is potentially a very good 3rd liner and Turgeon an OK 2nd liner. But he was in no way better or more valuable.

I would never select Hunter for my team. And I think that Turgeon's talent is much more rare despite his flaws than a third liner. There are lots of third liners.

(maybe my Hunter bias is showing though)

Absolutely. A couple more of those seasons look off, too. We’re really going to call Lafontaine’s 148 points the standard for 1993?

I don't see why not, honestly.

On what basis wouldn't you call his season the standard?

It certainly isn't an outlier. Technically Lemieux's season isn't even an outlier in 1993.

Complaining at every opportunity about the ways other people evaluate players, on the other hand… not annoying at all!

Yeah sure, it is much worse exposing the fact that we seem to be hopelessly inconsistent in our evaluations than to continue contradicting ourselves at every turn.

Linemates don't matter one day. Stars get their points. The next comparison: lets take these guys out of our comparisons or discount them because they played with so and so.

This guy has a great record in [whatever] voting. The next comparison: Obviously these writers were completely wrong and we know better so those votes don't mean much to me.

His great longevity has to be recognized. The next comparison: compiler.

etc.

Maybe it isn't inconsistency so much as personal preferences but it really makes it difficult to decide on players when the criteria is all over the place.

It seems like outside of the no brainers it is as much force of personality on the part of the proponent as anything.

Since when? If someone asked me what’s the percentage difference between 150 and 165, I’d say “165 is exactly 10% greater than 150”.

I admit it. I laughed.

 

[Sturminator]

Why wouldn't you? It's pretty clearly not an outlier in the context of 1992-93 scoring.

1. Mario Lemieux*-PIT 160
2. Pat LaFontaine*-BUF 148
3. Adam Oates*-BOS 142
4. Steve Yzerman*-DET 137
5. Pierre Turgeon-NYI 132
Teemu Selanne-WIN 132

If you're not using Lafontaine's 2nd place finish in 1992-93, you might as well throw the whole "Versus 2" thing in the garbage.

I'm still amazed that he doesn't grasp this point. Lemieux is the outlier. Lafontaine is barely above Oates, and is the first non-outlier. The system works...nothing to see here folks...move along.

 

[Dreakmur]

I'm surprised people take the time to skim through that block of text. You know what Assists equal? Goals by linemates....

People who have played hockey understand the importance of a great playmaker. A guy who creates offense for the rest of his linemates..A guy who makes the players around him better.

Why would any type of method comparing players not include assist totals LOL.

You can make the bess pass of all time, but if the other guy doesn't score you get nothing.

 

[Sturminator]

Maybe it isn't inconsistency so much as personal preferences but it really makes it difficult to decide on players when the criteria is all over the place.

This is precisely why junk data must be challenged whenever it appears.

It seems like outside of the no brainers it is as much force of personality on the part of the proponent than anything.

Human, all too human.