We've got a Saskatchewan party going on!
I completely disagree. I think Regina is no better than a 3rd place team, and had you guys been picked to finish lower I wouldn't have been surprised.
My opponent doesn't think my team is very good... I'm so hurt
I don't get what you're saying about Hitchcock. I didn't try and say that he's some sort of offensive coach to a degree or anything, but that his teams can score. Yes he had a nice amount of talent in Dallas and Philadelphia, but I'd say I do here as well. All I'm saying is let's not act like Hitchcock is going to completely restrict guys like Stastny and Richard, they will get their chances.
If that's not what you're trying to claim, fine. perhaps I misunderstood you. But about the bolded: Everyone is in a better situation than they were in real life, in absolute terms. I'm talking relatively, obviously. Hitchcock had a top-5 group of forwards for most of the 1997-2004 period. Although your forward group is ok, it's not top-5 in this "league".
As for Tarasov, yes, he could lose his team right now. It's not uncommon for a coach to have some level of success in the regular season and lose his team come playoff time, and I would not be surprised to see that happen here. And you did nothing to answer my question. All you did was state how his teams dominated weak competition. There is nothing to suggest that his teams were good defensively. No, his system won't change the play of your better two-way guys, but I see your top-6 defensemen as overall defensively weak, and there is nothing t suggest that Tarasov will help that.
Why, because we have Coffey? What else can you tell me about our blueline that makes them defensively weak? I'm curious.
If we finished 3rd, then the team has bought into Tarasov's system and there's nothing that suggests he will lose them now. Tarasov's teams should get better as the season goes on, and there would no doubt be a "feeling out" period which is now long over. Tarasov says:
"I was sure we would solve this task if we stepped up the volume and intensity of training, where the character , athleticism and skill of a player would be perfected, and what is most important, would be tempered from day to day like steel is tempered." Well, they're tempered now.
Most of the best coaches are tough and demanding. Blake and Bowman, for example. I see no reason to believe he's going to be any less popular with his players than Scotty Bowman, for example. This can be backed up by actual quotes from players who hated him. Bowman is the most successful coach in history and IIRC, is always the first coach selected.
This weak competition you speak of involves many nations that were playing hockey for decades before the Russians did. He singlehandedly put Russia on top of these nations, almost instantly.
I again encourage you to use the Ullman line to try and check one of my lines. Sure, they can check, but I definitely think Stastny or Richard can burn one of them with ease, and better yet, it takes the puck away from one or your better offensive units. Fine by me.
So Ullman and Duff are slugs now? Ya, OK.
You're kidding, right? Guys like Richard, Tonelli, Anderson, Mullen, and MacLeish are very well known for their clutch abilities. That Henderson guy scored a big goal or two during his days as well, I think. Those three on your team are nice, but mine are also quite good. In fact, my team is chock full of playoff performers and winners.
Morris over Mullen, I could maybe buy that. But Duff being the Anderson of his time? That's a joke, right? Duff is a nice clutch scorer and checker, but Anderson is a very talented offensive player who is one of the greatest playoff performers ever. Duff does not compare.
Mullen and MacLeish, well known as clutch? You're really stretching it now. I may as well just add McKenney, Ullman, Russell, and Staal to the list. Now my list's bigger, so, quick, add three more names to yours!
Anderson is very clutch and I said that. (I also asked how much LW he ever played.) But, what makes him any better than Duff? They were both supporting offensive players on dynasties, never all-stars, known for big goals, gritty (although Duff has a big edge there) and questionable HHOFers. Neither was a notable playmaker. Duff was top-10 in goals twice, top-20 five times. Anderson was top-10 three times, top-20 four times. They are very similar; the greatest difference is that one played in the 1980s and one didn't. Thus, their career totals are what they are.
Henderson sure gets a lot of mileage out of his three summit series game winners. Good player, not great. I was hoping you'd mention him because my 4th line LW was the scoring leader of a dynasty and dominated the playoff scoring charts. In six of eight seasons from 1906-1912, he was a top-5 scorer in the top league in the world. Was Henderson ever considered a top-30 player?
Yes, we all must believe that the PCHA totals are accurate of talent levels, yet the 80s are horrible. Yes, a lot of my guys' totals may be inflated, but yours are the same, and it doesn't erase what those guys accomplished.
I never said that. The 80s NHL did have one minor flaw and that is that there were some excellent players overseas. Ignoring that, it was the best league in the world. The PCHA was like half of the best league. The fact that you could buy Morris over Mullen tells me that you understand this, thank God. No amount of "but it was the PCHA!" and "but it was so long ago!" would overcome the goalscoring and playmaking differential.
The only thing about the 80s is, and it's not your fault, is that it's so easy to look at a guy with 1000 points and say "ooh!" but there are a number of players with 1000 points who were rarely elite. Mullen's not one of them, but like anyone from the 1980s, his totals make him look even better than he actually was. Three top-10s in goals, Five top-20s. Markus Naslund, Ken Hodge, and Marian Hossa are examples of modern wingers with better records than that. I'm not trashing Mullen at all, but I don't want people to see 502 goals, 1063 points and automatically conclude that he is a more significant player to hockey history than a guy who was top-2 in his "conference" in goals and assists, four times each.
The same thing applies to Anderson and Duff, who were basically the same player 25 years apart. (as I said, I'm not claiming Duff is better, just similar and nearly equal)
Also nice of you, when talking about my offense, to ignore my centermen, who are probably the two best offensive players on either team. But that was to be expected. Overall, I'd say I have a very nice edge offensively.
You don't have
the greatest top-2 centers out there, but much better than average. And yes, better than ours. Which is fine because it's certainly not a weakness of ours. Stastny and Richard both belong between 60 and 80 on an all-time list, and Ullman does, too. Ratelle I'd place around 110th. We're both doing pretty well.
You may be wondering how I could possibly think Ullman is in their league. Well, I happen to think he is criminally underrated. He is the more accomplished offensive player of the three:
-|Goals|-|-|-|-|Assists|-|-|-|-
Name | Top-2 | Top-5 | Top-10 | Top-15 | Top-20 | Top-2 | Top-5 | Top-10 | Top-15 | Top-20
Ullman | 1 | 3 | 9 | 12 | 13 | 0 | 2 | 9 | 12 | 15
H.Richard | 0 | 1 | 2 | 6 | 11 | 2 | 3 | 7 | 9 | 11
Pe.Stastny | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 6 | 1 | 4 | 7 | 8 | 8
Ullman is clearly the better goal scorer. he is the only one to ever place in the top-2 in goals. He was top-5 three times. Richard and Stastny only did so once, combined. Ullman was top-10 nine times. Richard and Stastny only did so twice, combined. The trend continues with the top-15 and top-20s as well.
Ullman gives a little bit in top-end playmaking but by the time you're looking at top-10 finishes, he is ahead again, widening his lead further as you expand to top-15s and top-20s.
Ullman did this with really lacklustre linemates as well. According to The Trail, he played one season with Howe and Lindsay, then played center for numerous combinations including Bruce MacGregor, Val Fonteyne, Larry Jeffrey, Paul Henderson, and Lowell McDonald. Richard had a revolving cast of Habs stars, and Stastny at least had Goulet for a decade.
In the playoffs, Ullman sees a point production decline of 10%, which is quite respectable. Stastny declines by 11%, also respectable, and Richard declines by 14%. All decent, the point being that Ullman was able to maintain his production in the playoffs just as much as they could.
Then you get into everything beyond point production. The grit, the defensive play, the heart, that is exactly why Henri Richard is rated as highly as he is despite an offensive record inferior to guys like Bucyk, Ullman, and Delvecchio. I have no doubt that Ullman can match him, quote for quote in this regard. Ullman was an excellent defensive player, tireless worker, dominant forechecker, and a great board man. To me, he sounds like a better offensive version of Henri Richard, that played on a lesser team. Stastny is no sissy or lazy player, but his reputation as a two-way player is nothing special.
so yes, that leaves Ratelle as the clear 4th-best center in the series. It doesn't worry me. First, he's not a bad player at all. You can do a lot worse than have a top-110 player as your 2nd-best center. (correct me if you disagree, but I think only Leaf Lander with Lindros, Mr. bugg with Dionne, MadArcand with Francis, GBC with Lach, you with Stastny, and Rzeznik with Gilmour managed to have a 2nd-best center better than Ratelle... Cup 2008's Oates could go either way) Secondly, he's a great fit with two power forwards with great shots to convert his passes.
(On that note, holy crap, is our division ever strong at center!!!)
Against almost any other team, my centers would be a strength. Against New York, they're not a weakness... just not an advantage.
Then there are the 3rd line centers, of course. McKenney has the edge in every way. Offensively, he's superior. (MacLeish had the two top-5s in goals, McKenney crushes him in top-10, 15, 20. 0-0-4-6-8 to 0-2-2-3-4. MacLeish cracked the top-20 in assists three times, McKenney led the league once and was top-20 six times) - Defensively, he's been described as excellent, solid, and a good two-way player. MacLeish was called "the worst defensive player of the 1970s" by Ultimate Hockey. that may be a bit harsh, considering he killed his share of penalties. But it's not glowing praise. They could have that wrong, but how wrong?
His linemates suffer by the same comparison. Nesterenko could be called a lesser version of Leswick. He was bigger and known for his speed. He's one of my favourites, actually. But he's no Leswick. Leswick has a modest offensive resume, finishing top-10 in goals twice and top-20 another time. Nesterenko was 20th once. Nesterenko was a good defensive player, but Leswick was one of the very best. Nesterenko could agitate, but Leswick is a Legendary agitator. Ramsay and Pavelich are similar. Pavelich is another one of my favourites. For all we know, he could have been as good as Ramsay. Unfortunately, with only quotes to go by (no selke voting or GF/GA numbers) it is impossible to conclusively say that. Neither was ever top-20 in anything, but Ramsay was the better offensive player. I'm not a big adjusted numbers fan, but a quick look at their best seasons for adjusted points tells the story. Pavelich: 45, 43, 41, 40, 40. Ramsay: 64, 62, 55, 55, 50. Although your third line is above average, it doesn't outdo our third line in any way.
Defensively my edge is greater. Like you said, I have an advantage on the first pairing, and while it's not as large as you credit yourself, I'd say you have an edge on the third pairing. However, the second pairing is where I flat out have a massive edge. Lester Patrick is nice, but Robert Svehla belongs nowhere near a second pairing. I know you like the guy, but for you to bash Kaberle and praise Svehla in this thing is lunacy. Svehla was little more than an iron-man who was decent offensively and defensively, and at his best was maybe barely a #1 guy. In all honesty, I'd take Mattias Norstrom, who's one of my call-ups, over him, and considering how they were contemporaries, and Norstrom was flat-out better, I don't think I'm wrong in saying that at all. We are going to eat him alive, and it's not going to be pretty for Regina. Oh, right, comparing second pairings. Well, while yours features Patrick and the worst defenseman of the series, mine features one of hockey's greatest winners ever and a future HHOFer. If you want to talk about big advantages, this is a massive one. Calling them a nut hair better is absolutely ridiculous.
No, that's exactly what they are. Niedermayer is just a modern Patrick (the two are strikingly similar), and Plager was a stay at home guy who wasn't a complete black hole offensively. Svehla was a jack of all trades who put up 40 points five times in the dead puck era. The only thing that would make Plager definitively better, is ATD canon.
- He played one more season (but 41 fewer games)
- He played in a higher-scoring era and never topped 40 points
- He was not more of a presence in Norris voting (12th, 13th vs. 14th, 14th)
- When he played the NHL was watered down by the WHA and a few better defensemen were overseas, you can't say that about Svehla
- His career adjusted +/- of 52 is almost identical to Svehla's 47
- He was known as a tough, physical, heart and soul beast of a defenseman - so was Svehla.
Really, why would anyone take Plager 270 spots ahead of Svehla? How many picks constitute a nut hair? I'd say 10-15.
Your criticisms of Svehla are unnecesarily harsh.
- Svehla was a far more effective player overall than Kaberle. It doesn't take much watching of both players to tell that.
- Svehla was much more than "barely" a #1 guy. "barely #1" guys don't get norris consideration and they don't lead their teams in icetime, especially not by the margins he did. For four straight seasons he had at least a 2:00 edge on the next-highest defenseman on his team, (the exception being 2002 where apparently the Panthers wanted Ozolinsh and Bure to form some sort of hellish dynamic duo) and for five straight he was in the top-18 in ice-time per game, including 8th in 1998 behind only Bourque, Lidstrom, Blake, Chelios, MacInnis, Pronger, and Leetch.
Barely a #1? yeah, right.
As for fourth lines, I also think this is a massive edge. Mine can defend, provide energy and score. Yours can score a bit, I guess, but there's nothing special about it at all. I do really like Oatman, but he's no Rick Vaive, and Eric Staal is a below average fourth liner in every way. Russell is nice, too, but so is Henderson. I'd say I have a nice edge with the fourth units.
Your 4th line's ability to defend is highly dubious when it features Rick Vaive. He was a brutal two-way player.
Even though Staal is already better than Broten ever was, I'd take Broten over him at this point. Staal has the right 4th line mentality, though - go up and down hard, play physical, pop in the odd clutch goal.
Henderson does not compare to Russell, as mentioned above. Russell was a far superior scorer, even in the clutch, and had to have been a lot grittier than that pacifist.
I'd take Oatman on a 4th line over Vaive any day of the week. So Vaive had a few 50-goal seasons. He had a better peak as a goalscorer, that's it. Oatman is tailor-made for the 4th line. He had far better longevity, much better leadership, better consistency, a ton of scrappiness, and is much better offensively, and better balanced offensively too. He was a bonafide star player who, from 1912 through 1920, was always one of hockey's 12 best forwards. He outpointed Dunderdale when they played together. When Vaive was scoring 50 goals and placing in the top-10 three times, would anyone have even called him one of the game's top-10 forwards? I really doubt it. And outside of those three seasons, he never did anything ATD-caliber: he peaked at 55th in league scoring.
In summary: Russell >>> Henderson. Broten > Staal. Oatman >>> Vaive. The ability of the line to defend is dubious. Vaive's poor two-way play would offset Broten's good defensive game, so I don't see how it would defend better than ours, and I can't see how it would score better (neitherdo you). Vaive is also the only one who comes close to his counterpart in physicality. It's just plain a better line with superior players.