ATD #11, Foster Hewitt Quarterfinals. Thunder Bay Twins (2) vs. Team Soviet Union (7)

EagleBelfour

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Jun 7, 2005
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Thunder Bay Twins

Coach: Billy Reay

Roy Conacher - Bill Cowley - Alexander Maltsev
Paul Kariya - Mike Modano - Daniel Alfredsson
Adam Graves - Phil Goyette - Bobby Rousseau
Louis Berlinquette - John Madden - Martin St. Louis
Milan Novy, Tumba Johansson

Chris Pronger - Nicklas Lidstrom
Sergei Zubov - Gary Suter
Ulf Samuelsson - Bill Hajt
Steve Duchesne

Ken Dryden
Andy Moog

vs.


Team Soviet Union

Head Coach: Hap Day
Assistant Coach: Arkady Chernyshev

Woody Dumart - Syl Apps (A) - Pavel Bure
Anatoli Firsov - Sergei Fedorov - Dino Ciccarelli
Jiri Holik - Red Berenson (A) - Blair Russel
Venjamin Alexandrov - Thomas Steen (A) - Bengt-Ã…ke Gustafsson
Erich Kühnhackl

Valeri Vasiliev (C) - Vladimir Lutchenko
Si Griffis - Vladimir Konstantinov
Harvey Pulford - Wally Stanowski
Ivan Tregubov

Vladislav Tretiak
Mike Vernon
 
Last edited:

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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:amazed: The only two teams in the division I thought clearly better than Team Soviet Union were the two Boston franchises.

Dryden vs. Tretiak is a wash.

That blueline is strong, hard hitting, solid, with speed on every pairing, especially Griffis on the second pairing and Wally the Whirling Dervish. They are physical and can intimidate and likely hurt Kariya and Maltsev. This is NOT a good matchup for the Twins. Tumba may be pressed into serve and his size will be welcomed, and the Union might want to dress Kühnhackl. There will be many penalties and the nasty side of Suter, Pronger and of course Samuelsson will be needed.

The Union have a phenomenal second line with Dino sure to cause Prongs to crosscheck the little bugger in the crease a few times.

Graves and Berlinquette will see Bure a lot and Pavel will have a difficult time against speedy two-way Twins forwards and solid blueliners who'll force him wide for one timers from angles Dryden will be able to cover.

A weak link for the Union is the second penalty kill unit against the second powerplay of Thunder Bay. That's good for three or four goals in the series.

The biggest problem is the relative lack of shots from the point. The Twins have Lidstrom, Pronger, Zubov all better than any of the blueline bombers of the Union. This comes into play on their attempted powerplays but also in trying to keep the puck in deep.

Steen's line ought to be effective against a Twins group of forwards that will like to skate with them. At the very least the Union's fourth line will be able to eat some clock.

Fedorov all over Modano or Cowley, Russel on Conacher, rough play by the Union d against Maltsev and Kariya, it is very possible that the Twins forward lines will have trouble playing on the road without last shift change for up to three games in the series. I never felt more happy to have Prongs and Nik as I do in this series: they MUST be the difference imo.

The Twins are at a distinct disadvantage in coaching. Stealing a game in Moscow will be difficult and if not then game seven heroics will be in order.

Goyette vs. Berenson could be a wash or a Twins advantage, depending on how much discount one gives his early expansion era production.

If this series goes the limit then a Firsov or Alexandrov can just as well notch the winner as St. Louis and Graves.

My co-GM is much better at doing the "how we will win" and "how we will lose" and will likely come along to do so before long.

Wish you a good series chaos. The combination of Soviets and pre-NHL HHOFers may not be the most popular, but they are worthy all-time greats and I for one am respectful of their ability and threat in this series.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,171
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Good luck Chaos. I had your team ranked higher than 7th; it’s unfortunate we have to meet in the first round. There are a lot of similarities between our teams. Both teams boast fast, skilled, disciplined forwards, punishing bluelines, and elite, proven goalies. (Tretiak continues to be a polarizing figure and it will be interest to see how this affects the series).

Why Thunder Bay Will Win

- Advantage: Offense from the blueline.
- Details: VanIslander and I had a consistent vision when creating this team. We wanted our top six forwards to be fast and highly skilled; equally important was the need to have a fast blueline who could join the rush and/or make breakout passes. I think we’ve largely succeeded with this strategy – Conacher, Maltsev, Kariya and Modano were all outstanding skaters and they’re supported by Lidstrom and Zubov (two very fast playmakers, both willing to join the rush). Pronger is not quite an elite skater but has the proven ability to make brilliant breakout passes. Even Suter was a solid (probably underrated) skater who was able to join the rush. In short, the Twins have a highly skilled, speedy group of forwards that are appropriately supported by a fast, mobile blueline, who can generate significant transitional offense.
- In contrast, for all the speed and skill that Team Soviet Union’s forwards have, I don’t think their blueline suitable. I’m a big fan of Vasiliev and believe his combination of speed and playmaking ability is a huge asset to TSU; but the rest of the blueline does not fit the team. Konstantinov was a limited offensive contributor. Lutchenko had a great slapshot and is dangerous on the PP (I believe VanIslander underrated him in this regard) but was not a great playmaker or rushing defenseman I don’t expect him to make any significant scoring contributions at even strength. Griffis is interesting – he was a fast, skilled rover but I would expect his offensive contributions to decrease considerably as he’s forced to play more conservatively as a defenseman. Overall, Vasiliev will have to step up considerably if Team Soviet Union wants any chance to maximize their forwards’ speed and skill. (Clearly, though, this has a cost as the more time Vasiliev spends rushing, the less he can focus on checking).

- Advantage: The Twins have superior penalty killing.
- Details: among our bottom six forwards, the Twins have quick three-time Selke finalist Madden, three-time retro Selke winner Berlinquette, speedy two-way threat St. Louis, and two forwards who thrived in their role of killing penalties on strong teams (Goyette and Rousseau). TSU’s best defensive forwards appear to be Fedorov, Apps and Dumart, which is problematic. Will Team Soviet Union over-work and exhaust Fedorov, Apps and Dumart by giving them extensive ES, PP and PK duty? If so, the less-overworked Cowley, Conacher and Maltsev should prove to be the difference. The alternative is also problematic – Russel, Steen, Gustafsson and Berenson are all solid defensive players but if they are underwhelming as #1 and #2 penalty killers.
- It is also worth mentioning that three of our best penalty killing defensemen (Lidstrom, Hajt and Zubov) are highly disciplined; they are they unlikely to take penalties and should be available for most penalty kills. The same cannot be said for the relatively heavily penalized Konstantinov and Lutchenko (and, in fairness, Pronger).

How Thunder Bay Can Lose

- Disadvantage: Our top six forwards are fairly small, though only two of them (Maltsev and Kariya) should be considered soft.
- How to counter this disadvantage: although TSU has an aggressive, hard-hitting blueline, there’s only one of the top four defenseman combines toughness with sufficient speed to consistently hit the Twins’ speedy forwards. Vasiliev’s devastating hitting and superb skating ability makes him a significant threat; however I question whether Konstantinov and Lutchenko are fast enough to hit Maltsev or Kariya on a consistent basis.
- This matchup is favourable in the sense that Team Soviet Union also has fairly small, non-aggressive top six forwards. Ciccarelli is the only forward on either team who relies heavily on strength and toughness. However, he is at a clear disadvantage in this series for two reasons. First, Ciccarelli was notorious for taking dumb penalties; Samuelsson will play around 10 minutes per game, most of that matched up against Ciccarelli. Samuelsson should be able to agitate Ciccarelli into taking a few stupid penalties in the series; at the very lease Samuelsson will be more than willing to drop the gloves as having our #6 defenseman and their top six forward go to the box at the same time is a good deal. Furthermore, Ciccarelli’s poor skating ability puts him at a distinct disadvantage against the Twins’ very fast forwards and defensemen.

- Disadvantage: As VanIslander mentioned, Hap Day is clearly a superior coach to Bill Reay.
- How to counter this disadvantage: Reay, who is best known for coaching the Hull/Mikita Blackhawks, is in a familiar environment. The Twins are a fast, skilled team. One of Reay’s strengths was his ability to stand back and let his players use their considerable skills without excess interference. Additionally, having home ice advantage in this series will allow us to obtain more favorable matchups.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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This is a very interesting first round matchup, the first I'll comment on. Some previous comments I agree with, others I do not.

- Pavel Bure: one thing I'll say for Bure, as much of a ghost as he was defensively, his circling in the neutral zone has one great advantage: it was nearly impossible to shadow him. In order to shadow a guy who doesn't enter his own defensive zone, you have to assign a player who won't enter his own offensive zone, something teams are almost uniformly loathe to do. Pavel was an enormous defensive liability, but the sword cuts both ways because he always had a lot of daylight in front of him when the puck found his stick. Maurice Richard is the only other player I can think of who falls into this category, and really lines that feature these two guys force a wide open style of play by their mere presence.

Although I'm not normally a fan of guys like Dumart on 1st lines, in this case I think chaos has done exactly the right thing. There is only one puck, and Bure must be the centerpiece of any line on which he skates simply by virtue of being Pavel Bure. Dumart - Apps is an almost perfect combination of defensive awareness, size/puckwinning ability and playmaking - exactly what is needed to produce a Bure-centered line that will get him the puck with regularity without getting lit up in their own end. The presence of Valeri Vasiliev's outstanding puckwinning/playmaking package certainly won't hurt, either. In terms of design and value, this is the single best Bure (or Richard) centered unit that I have ever seen in the ATD.

Thunder Bay can counter Bure by giving their defensive-minded LWs (Berlinquette comes to mind) a big chunk of icetime and instructing them not to enter their own offensive zone, but by doing so the Twins will be torpedoing their own attack, which leans on the LW for offense on both scoringlines. I don't think that's any kind of solution. The best way to beat a Bure line is probably not to shadow Bure, but to match the line with top unit players who possess a high level of skating ability and defensive awareness, most specifically at center and left defenseman. It is these players who will have the most opportunities to cut off the cross-ice passing lanes that need to be open for Bure to get good service, and ultimately these players who will have the best chance of disrupting Bure on the backcheck (difficult, because of his speed and his ability to handle the puck at Mach 3) when the inevitable pass connects. I would recommend playing Lidstrom at left D and the Modano line against Bure whenever possible.

- physicality: Thunder Bay is a very chippy team, and TSU has its share of jam, as well. I expect a fair amount of violence in this series, and the fisticuffs that go along with it. One thing that I find strange when looking at this matchup is the fact that we have here two teams that will throw cheapshots and instigate fights, but not a single true enforcer to be seen on either bench. Seriously, who are the heavyweight fighters in this series? Harvey Pulford appears to be TSU's best fighter and Thunder Bay's toughest pugilist is probably...gag...Chris Pronger. It looks to me like a lot of cheapshots may go unpunished in this series (except by the refs), and I'm not sure that is really good for either team.

Overall, a much more interesting matchup than the seeding (2 vs. 7) would lead one to believe.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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Thunder Bay's toughest pugilist is probably...gag...Chris Pronger. It looks to me like a lot of cheapshots may go unpunished in this series (except by the refs), and I'm not sure that is really good for either team.
Not Chris. Adam!

gravesfit.gif


Adam Graves drops gloves and defends teammates, has done so countless times, it's partially why he's a four-time recipient of the NYR's Player's Player Award.

Dino better fight Graves because the fact is Dino isn't much better at backchecking than Bure and the Twins left wingers, especially Graves, will eat them for lunch with his offensive grit, unemcumbered by Bure or Dino, putting extra pressure on TSU's defense.

Stanowski and coach Day once went outside to fight a fan who was badmouthing the team (Leafs), the fan running away at the sight of them showing up. :laugh: I'm sure Day will INSIST on his guys fighting when need be.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
9,894
1,070
West Egg, New York
Not Chris. Adam!

gravesfit.gif

Nice pic. As much as I respect Adam Graves, he is what he is: a solid middleweight who will do anything for his team. In this series, Gravy may be all that is necessary from an enforcement standpoint, but Minnesota in round 2 (should it come to that) is a different animal. I have no idea what got into Nalyd this time around.
 

God Bless Canada

Registered User
Jul 11, 2004
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It's an intriguing match-up in that these might be the two teams with the least physically intimidating forward corps in the draft. Graves is probably the most imposing forward for the Twinkies; Ciccarelli is probably the most intimidating forward for Team USSR. Both teams have a lot of skill up front, they have four lines that can score, and they have defencemen who can get involved in the offensive side of the game. This Team USSR probably isn't the team that's going to exploit the Twins only tangible weakness - a lack of toughness up front.

sturm, I watched Mike Sullivan and a tandem of James Patrick and a motivated Zarley Zalapski do a number on Bure in the first six games of the 1994 playoffs. The common thread for all three was speed: Patrick was a magnificent player, Zalapski was a fine player when he was motivated, and Sullivan, who was right up there with guys like Gartner, Coffey, Ranheim and Hedican for the fastest skaters in the league. (Not necessarily the best, or the fastest with the puck. In terms of pure speed, though, Mike Sullivan could skate as fast as anyone). Granted, Bure wasn't playing motivated hockey at that point. Then he threatened to hold out in Game 7 if he didn't get a contract (yes, he was that selfish), got a new deal, and then played a fantastic Game 7. (Plus the best hockey of his life in the next series against Dallas). I also watched Scotty Stevens do a number on Pavel in 2000.

Minnesota's defence is as good as it gets. They have the Naughty and Nice tandem on the first pairing, a well-rounded pairing for the second unit, and then a rock-solid tandem for the third pairing. Bure's going to have trouble generating offence against any of those pairings.

The Dryden-Tretiak match-up will be fun to watch. You have to love those classic "rivalry" match-ups that we get a few times each draft. Dryden didn't always have great games against the Soviets. He struggled at times in 72, and his save percentage in the 75 New Year's Eve game isn't exactly sparkling, either. I think Dryden's the better goalie. I think he's definitely the better goalie.

Playing behind that defence helps, of course. It's going to be like 76-79 Montreal all over again for Dryden. Playing behind that defence, he won't have to steal games. He'll face shots, and against this USSR team, he'll face quality shots. But that defence will help.

I think USSR's biggest edge is behind the bench. You can make a case for Hap Day as a top-five all-time coach. Reay's a fine coach, but he's definitely a cut below Hap Day.
 

chaosrevolver

Snubbed Again
Nov 24, 2006
16,876
1,072
Ontario
VanIslander said:
:amazed: The only two teams in the division I thought clearly better than Team Soviet Union were the two Boston franchises.
Thankyou, we were surprised also. You built a strong team as well.

VanIslander said:
Dryden vs. Tretiak is a wash.
Surprised you think that way to be honest. But then again..when I think of it..I have Dryden around #7 All-Time and Tretiak at 9, so I guess it's fairly close. Would say Dryden has a bit of an advantage though.

VanIslander said:
That blueline is strong, hard hitting, solid, with speed on every pairing, especially Griffis on the second pairing and Wally the Whirling Dervish. They are physical and can intimidate and likely hurt Kariya and Maltsev. This is NOT a good matchup for the Twins. Tumba may be pressed into serve and his size will be welcomed, and the Union might want to dress Kühnhackl. There will be many penalties and the nasty side of Suter, Pronger and of course Samuelsson will be needed.
We built are defense like GBC's was last year (the one that knocked us out). Was pretty close to what we had planned actually. Like you said, Kariya and Maltsev might have some issues getting by our defense. I'm curious to your point about Kuhnhackl. What center do you think we should sit, because I don't really see one that would be appropriate to take out.

Agreed on the nasty side for you guys. That's how you have to play this series, because if you don't, an upset might be coming. Ulf Samuelsson will definitely be a key player in the series for you.

VanIslander said:
The Union have a phenomenal second line with Dino sure to cause Prongs to crosscheck the little bugger in the crease a few times.
Indeed, and take some penalties. This brings me to my next point. Your penalty kill and our power play. Due to the amount of penalties your team might have to take, trying to play nasty, our powerplay might be the key to us winning the series. If it's going..and it most certainly has the firepower to get going, you might be in some trouble. And for those saying we are just an inside team, you forget that the combo of Vasiliev and Lutchenko will be deadly from the point. The crisp passing of Vassy and the rocket shot of Lutchenko. Combine those shots with Ciccarelli's net presence and you have a killer combo.

Graves and Berlinquette will see Bure a lot and Pavel will have a difficult time against speedy two-way Twins forwards and solid blueliners who'll force him wide for one timers from angles Dryden will be able to cover.
You force Pavel Bure wide and he will skate right past you. And if you want to just focus on Bure, fine we will throw Syl Apps at you. Have fun with that. Pavel Bure is nearly uncoverable, and with the perfect defensive presence of Apps and Dumart, he is free to go, and go he will. Oh and btw...focus on that line too much and you also have the FFC line to watch out for. That is arguably the best second line in the draft, and it is an explosive one for sure.

VanIslander said:
A weak link for the Union is the second penalty kill unit against the second powerplay of Thunder Bay. That's good for three or four goals in the series.
Actually, we don't think it will be a problem. And I fail to see why you think it will be a problem for us.

1st Penalty Kill: Fedorov-Dumart-Vasiliev-Lutchenko
2nd Penalty Kill: Apps-Russel-Pulford-Konstantinov

Don't get me wrong, the defense isn't incredible or anything on the second PK. But the forwards are not easy to get by. Blair Russel was a fantastic defensive player who was awseome at shadowing the opponents best players. And Syl Apps was a very good defensive forward as well who will definitely be counted on.

VanIslander said:
The biggest problem is the relative lack of shots from the point. The Twins have Lidstrom, Pronger, Zubov all better than any of the blueline bombers of the Union. This comes into play on their attempted powerplays but also in trying to keep the puck in deep.
Vasiliev and Lutchenko ring bells? Their right with those guys not named Lidstrom. Our team focuses on getting them to the net where Dino will be used to disrupt the goaltender and allow some big rebounds for his other winger and centerman to bang in. It won't just be about the inside game on the powerplay for us.

VanIslander said:
Fedorov all over Modano or Cowley, Russel on Conacher, rough play by the Union d against Maltsev and Kariya, it is very possible that the Twins forward lines will have trouble playing on the road without last shift change for up to three games in the series. I never felt more happy to have Prongs and Nik as I do in this series: they MUST be the difference imo.
I agree with everything you said here.

VanIslander said:
The Twins are at a distinct disadvantage in coaching. Stealing a game in Moscow will be difficult and if not then game seven heroics will be in order.
Again, agreed completely.

VanIslander said:
Wish you a good series chaos. The combination of Soviets and pre-NHL HHOFers may not be the most popular, but they are worthy all-time greats and I for one am respectful of their ability and threat in this series.
Best of luck to you VanI.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,197
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Regina, SK
The Thunder Bay Twins (2) vs. Team Soviet Union (7)

Game Results:

The Thunder Bay Twins: 2 - Team Soviet Union: 1 OT
The Thunder Bay Twins: 3 - Team Soviet Union: 1
Team Soviet Union: 4 - Thunder Bay Twins: 2
Team Soviet Union: 2 - Thunder Bay Twins: 1
The Thunder Bay Twins: 5 - Team Soviet Union: 2
Team Soviet Union: 1 - Thunder Bay Twins: 2 2OT

The Thunder Bay Twins (2) defeats Team Soviet Union (7) in 6 games.


Series Three Stars

1: Niklas Lidstrom - Thunder Bay Twins
Co-2: Ken Dryden - Thunder Bay Twins
Co-2: Vladislav Tretiak - Soviet Union


Series Recap:

- The story of this series was the duo of Lidstrom-Pronger, who were able to control the offensive potent first line of Dumart-Apps-Bure. Niklas Lidstrom, particularly, was a force on both end of the ice, often the only player on the ice who could control Pavel Bure.

- Another sory was the strong performances of both goaltenders, Ken Dryden and Vladislav Tretiak. Tretiak receive almost twice as more shot than his adversary, but Dryden had to make more difficult saves. In the second overtime period in game 6, Dryden made a stellar glove save against Syl Apps Sr. on a breakaway. This incredible save enable, a couple of minute later, Alexander Maltsev to score on a 2 on 1, scoring on a great feed from Roy Conacher.

- Although the discussion were heavy at first, the interesting duo of Hap Day and Arkady Chernyshev seems to have worked well, both have spoke highly of the other after the series.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,171
14,534
Thanks for a good series, Chaos. No surprise that there were a lot of one-goal games. Your team has a lot of my personal favourites (especially Apps and Vasiliev).

It's fitting that Dryden and Tretiak were co-2nd stars.
 

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