ATD #10 - Rene Lecavalier Semifinals: Montreal Canadiens (1) vs. Montreal Maroons (4)

papershoes

Registered User
Dec 28, 2007
1,825
131
Kenora, Ontario
Montreal Canadiens
GM: Hockey Outsider
Coach: Hap Day

Sid Smith - Bryan Trottier (C) - Pavel Bure
Esa Tikkanen - Doug Gilmour (A) - Bill Mosienko
George Hay - Dick Irvin, Sr. - B-A Gustafsson
Don Marcotte - Derek Sanderson - Ed Westfall (A)
extras: Don Lever - Tomas Sandstrom

Valeri Vasiliev - Vitali Davydov
Mark Howe - Zdeno Chara
Bill Hajt - Bobby Rowe
extra: Sandis Ozolinsh

Dominik Hasek
Gerry McNeil

Power play units:
PP1: Sid Smith - Bryan Trottier - Pavel Bure - Mark Howe - Zdeno Chara
PP2: Dick Irvin - Doug Gilmour - Bill Mosienko - Valeri Vasiliev - Sandis Ozolinsh

Penalty killing units:
PK1: Marcotte - Sanderson - Mark Howe - Zdeno Chara
PK2: Westfall - Gilmour - Valeri Vasiliev - Vitali Davydov


VS.


Montreal Maroons
GM: Murphy
Coaches: Don Cherry, Roger Neilson

Sweeney Schriner - Nels Stewart - Punch Broadbent
Craig Simpson - Mark Messier (C) - Glenn Anderson
Brian Sutter (A) - Brent Sutter - Duane Sutter
Wendel Clark - Bill Hay - Shane Doan
extra: Stan Jonathan

Earl Seibert (A) - Alexei Kasatanov
Carol Vadnais - Craig Hartsburg
Barry Beck - Mark Tinordi
extra: Kevin Hatcher

Ed Giacomin
Rogie Vachon

Power play units:
PP1: Schriner - Stewart - Broadbent - Seibert - Kasatonov
PP2: Simpson - Messier - Anderson - Vadnais - Beck

Penalty killing units:
PK1: Duane Sutter - Brent Sutter - Seibert - Kasatonov
PK2: Messier - Brian Sutter - Hartsburg - Tinordi​
 

God Bless Canada

Registered User
Jul 11, 2004
11,793
17
Bentley reunion
Biggest question for me is how will the Maroons handle the Habs speed on the right wing? I have no doubts that the Seibert-Kasatonov tandem can play against Bure or Mosienko, and play very effectively. But how will the Vadenais-Hartsburg duo do? Can Hartsburg keep up with Bure or Mosienko? Is Vadenais good enough defensively to play against either of those players? Because I don't think Beck and Tinordi are fast enough.

How many minutes will Seibert play each night? The over/under is at 35.5.

And I think Wendel Clark is out of place. Hay-Doan are terrific. If you have the right LW, you can put those two out there against any line, and they would thrive. That would potentially be the tonic against Trottier's line or Gilmour's line. But Clark? Clark isn't the right player. Not good enough defensively. He's good for a second line gunner role, or a third scoring line (a shame he couldn't stay healthy) but his defensive play wasn't always there.

The biggest question for me is how will the Habs handle the physical onslaught from the Maroons? This is a very dangerous Maroons squad. They're big, they're mean, but they're skilled, too. They can get offence from all four lines. Their offensive depth is excellent. I think you can get to their first line (Broadbent's scoring record is limited, and Stewart's skating isn't impressive). But that second line is outstanding, the third line effectively combines grit and skill, and the fourth line can chip in offensively, too. With the exception of Tinordi, all of the defencemen can contribute offensively. The Maroons will wear you down, they'll soften you up, and then they have the offensive skill to get two or three quick goals.

I like the personnel on the Habs blue-line more, but I like the composition of the Maroons defence. As I said before, mobility is my only real concern for the Maroons, but that's more reflective of the fact that the Habs have two of the fastest RWs in the draft.

Montreal has the advantage in net. I don't think there are any big-time advantages in net in the ATD. But Hasek vs. Giacomin/Vachon is as close to one as you get. Hasek's a roller-coaster in the playoffs, but no goalie has the potential to steal a game like the Dominator. That'll be key, because when the Maroons physicality does get to the Habs players (and it will happen), they're going to need a goalie who can make the big saves, and a series of saves in a hurry. That's Hasek.

I think Montreal's biggest edge is behind the bench. Day vs. Cherry/Neilson. This is a Cherry/Neilson type of team, except we know that Messier does not like Roger. (Roger liked everybody). Day's an elite coach. One of the best in the draft.
 

Murphy

Registered User
Apr 2, 2005
2,104
1
Edmonton
I'm not sure about Messier liking Neilson or not. Messier wanted Keenan in at the expense of any coach. I think what he did to Neilson sucked no doubt but I don't think it was any kind of personality clash. In any event, this is my team and Messier won't be playing gm

Hasek will have to contend with crease crashers galore this series, and maybe a bit of tobbaco in his face....

It would be interesting to see if he'd flake out this series or be unbeatable. I think givin that he's not the most stable of personalities he'll be distracted to no end this series.

In any event the 76 version of Vachon isn't that far off of Hasek's 96 performance.

Gotta Go, more later
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,812
16,549
It's nothing against the Maroons, but I really wonder... Why is Cherry considered an ATD coach? And why a guy like Jacques Demers sometimes raises eyebrows while Don Cherry (of all people..) gets a free pass? I kinda prefer the Maroons squad overall, but the gap in coaching is about as big as the gap between the 92-93 Ottawa Senators and the late 50ies Montreal Canadiens.
 

Murphy

Registered User
Apr 2, 2005
2,104
1
Edmonton
It's nothing against the Maroons, but I really wonder... Why is Cherry considered an ATD coach? And why a guy like Jacques Demers sometimes raises eyebrows while Don Cherry (of all people..) gets a free pass? I kinda prefer the Maroons squad overall, but the gap in coaching is about as big as the gap between the 92-93 Ottawa Senators and the late 50ies Montreal Canadiens.

Now, now, the gap isn't quite that large, lets not discount what Roger Neilson brings to the table as well.

I like Cherry pretty much because he's considered the ultimate in a players coach, his players loved him and would go through a wall for him. Whether or not the ultimate in a players coach deserves a spot in the atd I don't know but in my opinion I think he does.

I also think he'd mesh well with Neilson as Neilson loved to bend the rules in finding any advantage, not hard to think Cherry wouldn't find that appealing as well. That and Neilson is also considered a players coach while bringing a strong element of innovation.

Cherry's the rah rah guy and media manipulator. Neilsons the tactition and innovator. Both were loved by their players. Seems a strong combo to me.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,812
16,549
I like Cherry pretty much because he's considered the ultimate in a players coach, his players loved him and would go through a wall for him. Whether or not the ultimate in a players coach deserves a spot in the atd I don't know but in my opinion I think he does.



Cherry's the rah rah guy and media manipulator. Neilsons the tactition and innovator. Both were loved by their players. Seems a strong combo to me.

Which basically makes Don Cherry a grade-Z Jacques Demers. Nevermind he was a players coach (which he was) : he should be a middle-of-the-road MLD coach, and has nothing to do in an ATD.

Your combo can be worked with for sure : I like Neilsen as an assistant as much as everybody. You have a team built for playoffs, and that's what makes me give a slight advantage over the Montreal Canadiens as far as the coaches aren't concerned. Cherry and Nielsen would like their team, but there are few unpicked coaches that would have done a better job, and that don't come with the (guy that coached the best team to never win the Stanley Cup) tag.
 

Murphy

Registered User
Apr 2, 2005
2,104
1
Edmonton
The biggest question for me is how will the Habs handle the physical onslaught from the Maroons? This is a very dangerous Maroons squad. They're big, they're mean, but they're skilled, too. They can get offence from all four lines. Their offensive depth is excellent. I think you can get to their first line (Broadbent's scoring record is limited, and Stewart's skating isn't impressive).



Harry Broadbent was nicknamed "Punch" for a couple of reasons: he had knockout scoring punch with a knack for scoring at clutch times; and he was also one of the best fighters in his era in the NHL.

Broadbents record is limited in part because he served in WW1, in what would have been the prime of his career, that plays a factor. I don't really know how "clutch" he was but with 4 Stanley Cups in 10 years he contributed no doubt.

I don't know but I doubt any other line in the atd can boast three Art Ross Trophy winners all on the same line. I think the first line is deadly given their goal scoring prowess and physicality combined.
 

raleh

Registered User
Oct 17, 2005
1,764
9
Dartmouth, NS
Harry Broadbent was nicknamed "Punch" for a couple of reasons: he had knockout scoring punch with a knack for scoring at clutch times; and he was also one of the best fighters in his era in the NHL.

Broadbents record is limited in part because he served in WW1, in what would have been the prime of his career, that plays a factor. I don't really know how "clutch" he was but with 4 Stanley Cups in 10 years he contributed no doubt.

I don't know but I doubt any other line in the atd can boast three Art Ross Trophy winners all on the same line. I think the first line is deadly given their goal scoring prowess and physicality combined.

To be honest, I'm sure there are lots because it only took me about 2 seconds to think of one: Ovie-Morenz-Boomer. They've also all won the goal scoring race. This really has nothing to do with the argument, but I'm thinking there's probably a ton of first lines that have three Art Ross winners...
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,155
14,478
Congrats on making it this far Murphy. This should be an interesting series. I think the Canadiens have a few significant advantages.

Goaltending. No other semi-final series features such a large mismatch in goal. Hasek had arguably the greatest peak of any goalie in hockey history and is universally considered a top three goalie. Giacomin was a good (and underrated) netminder but likely falls at least 15 spots behind Hasek on any credible all-time goalie ranking. I assume that every GM is familiar with Hasek’s advantage over Giacomin in playoff success, Hart tropy voting, Vezina/all-star awards, save percentage, GAA, etc., though I can elaborate if necessary.

Contrary to what Murphy says, Hasek has one of the most consistent playoff records in NHL history. Since he became a starter in 1994, only twice (in ten years) did Hasek have a save percentage below 91.5% in the playoffs (once in 1995, and once at age 43 last year) (source). Only three times did he have a GAA above 2.10. Hasek carried a nearly AHL calibre team to the Stanley Cup finals playing behind ****** and ******* as his best defensemen… now he will be protected by Zdeno Chara, who will use his size and raw strength to protect Hasek and ensure his crease is clear at all times.

Coaching. Not only is Hap Day one of the most successful coaches in hockey history, but his meticulous style is well-suited for my team. Day has a proven track record of success: he won five Stanley Cups in ten NHL seasons (including four Cups in seven years if the watered-down WWII seasons are excluded); he had very different rosters over time indicating that the coach was a big part of the team’s success. Day was one of only two coaches (along with Al Arbour) who successfully coached his team to come back & win a series after falling into a 3-0 deficit – this proves that Day was able to motivate his players and ensured that they never quit. Ted Kennedy said that the Leafs “were meticulously trained” (source) and that Day had great technical knowledge because he “knew the rule book inside out and could quote it verbatim” (source). Kennedy said Day “devised the Leafs system which was particularly adhered to in the playoffs” (source), which shows that Day was a great tactician and raised his level of performance in the playoffs.

I like Neilson but, frankly, his playoff track record is not remotely comparable to Day’s. Neilson was a great tactician and innovator but the previous quotes about Day’s tactics and knowledge of the rulebook indicate he is at least Neilson’s equal in those regards. Finally, simply put, I don’t think that Don Cherry is an ATD-calibre coach. His playoff record is underwhelming considering the quality of his team.

#3/4 defensemen. Chara has subtly become one of the most complete defensemen in the NHL. His enormous size, raw power and lack of any injury history means that he can withstand a pounding from the Maroons’ aggressive forwards. Chara has consistently been an excellent penalty killer – since the NHL started tracking PK ice time in 1998, only Lidstrom, Chelios and Pronger have spent more time killing penalties (source). Chara isn’t a conventional offensive threat but he won the fastest slapshot competition at the all-star game in 2007 & 2008 (source), making him a dangerous threat from the point on the PP. Chara’s main weakness is that his speed is merely average. However, I will match him up against Nels Stewart who is a slow skater (source) and, despite being tough, should be unable to outmuscle Chara. He’s ranked 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 7th in Norris voting (source).

Described as “a rock-solid defensemen” (source) Davydov might be the most underrated Soviet hockey player. He was a six-time USSR all-star defenseman (source), during the same time period as Firsov and Ragulin. In the earliest year I could find Soviet MVP voting (1970), Davydov was 6th in MVP voting, ahead of Firsov and Petrov, and one spot behind Kharlamov (source). With just 8 goals in 178 games, Davydov obviously is not an offensive threat, however he is the ideal conservative partner for Vasiliev.

In contrast, the Maroons’ secondary defensemen will likely be exposed by the speed & skill of Bure & Mosienko. Vadnais was an enigmatic player – he was a skilled puckhandler and playmaker but his stats are underwhelming and he was known as an indifferent defensive player. Presumably due to his lack of defensive ability, Vadnais finished in the top ten in Norris voting just once in his career (1975) (source). Vadnais’s lack of defensive ability makes him a weak link against the speed or Bure/Mosienko. Additionally, Hartsburg is a solid defenseman but really lacks any significant personal or team accomplishments. Vadnais would be okay with a strong defensive partner but I don’t think Hartsburg has the speed or hockey sense to make up for Vadnais’ mistakes.

Utility line. Correct me if I’m wrong Murphy but your Sutter line is likely your best defensive line (similar to my Sanderson line) while your Hay line would be your “utility” line (similar to my Irvin line).

I have one of the best utility lines in the draft, as they will provide excellent offense. Dick Irvin was a four-time WCHL all-star who finished in the top five in goals & top ten in scoring four times. As soon as he switched to the NHL (1927) he led the league in assists and was second only two Bill Cook in scoring. He was “lauded for his exceptional stickhandling ability, a hard, accurate shot and a cool temperament that kept him out of the penalty box” (source). Irvin is re-united with his LW George Hay, the four-time WCHL all-star. He finished in the top five in goals & points five times in the WCHL & NHL. Sportswrite Sam Green says Hay combined “speed and poise, aggressiveness and finesse, with unsurpassed mechanical ability” (source) while coach Jack Adams said Hay was “always in condition, always on the job, always willing to play any position” (source). Including BA Gustafsson, a perennial Selke contender in the 1980s, my utility line has excellent offensive ability and solid two-way play.

Murphy’s utility line is centred by Bill Hay, a player who recorded a lot of assists playing for two years with Bobby Hull but who accomplished absolutely nothing of note without him. Doan & Clark and tough players but clearly do not approach the offensive ability of Hay & Irvin, as described above and Gustafsson is likely the best defensive player on either utility line (including top five finishes in Selke voting in 1986 and 1989 (source)).

Obviously these lines have a contrast in styles (Maroons’ toughness vs Habs’ offense). I think this matchup favour me for two reasons. First, given my significant advantage in goal, the Giacomin will have to face three very dangerous scoring lines – even if the can contain, say, Trottier & Bure for a night, Irvin & Hay have proven to be elite scorers in the WCHL & NHL, and they should be able to step up & contribute. Furthermore, Murphy’s aggressive (and heavily penalized) fourth line will allow me to use my dangerous powerplay which was voted 1st in the division prior to the start of the playoffs (source).

Murphy has a good team and this will be a tough series but I think my advantages in goal, behind the bench, on the utility line, and on the second defense pair will allow the Canadiens to win.
 
Last edited:

Murphy

Registered User
Apr 2, 2005
2,104
1
Edmonton
I feel like I've brought a knife to a gun fight in regards to a rebuttal and a dull one at that! All valid points Outsider but.....................:p:

I think the Cherry/Neilson tandem is solid. Hap Day is the winningest coach here no doubt but my coaches are there because they were players coaches first and foremost. That fits perfectly with the team I was trying to build. A cohesive bunch that will do anything the coaches ask of them. One or the other would probably be overwhelmed with Hap Day but together they should do more than fine.

I think Hartsburg does have the hockey sense to look after Vadnais, and/or deal with Bure/Mosienko. He might not have the personal accolades but he was good enough to make a couple Canada Cup teams and represent Canada at the Worlds a few times. I don't remember him having any trouble handling the speed in those tournaments.

The Sutter line isn't really a defensive/shutdown line. My bottom two lines are more energy/utility lines that will bang you, be defensively responsible yet still be dangerous offensively. I know I wouldn't look forward to being on the ice against 3 Sutters and thats the point. The Canadians utility line probably is one of the best in the draft but they'll see alot of the Sutters and expect to have to play some hardnosed hockey. I don't think its a signficant advantage if at all, in any event.

I think the Maroons have alot of versatility and chemistry. The first two lines are 1a & 1b. Same with the goaltending. Two coaches who compliment each other and fit with the roster. Outside of Bure I don't think the Canadians are exceptionally fast and shouldn't present a problems for the Moroons.
 

Nalyd Psycho

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
24,415
15
No Bandwagon
Visit site
Game 1:

The game starts off patient. Each team taking their time. Taking it easy on the offence and the physical end. The pace slowly builds, rising like a crescendo. It reaches the appex when Mark Howe passes up to Pavel Bure in the 3rd, after dekeing Hartsburg, Bure has a breakaway, fake, fake, goal!

Canadiens win 1-0.
 

Nalyd Psycho

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
24,415
15
No Bandwagon
Visit site
Game 2:

After the failure in game 1, the Maroons come out swinging, hard. Messier is a monster, laying Vasiliev out on his back. Seibert destroys Trottier. And Broadbent makes Hasek's life a living hell. But it is the soft hands of Craig Simpson that get them on the board. Tikkanen gets the equalizer. But early in the 3rd, a Messier wrster takes the lead and Bill Hay puts the game away.

Maroons win 3-1.
 

Nalyd Psycho

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
24,415
15
No Bandwagon
Visit site
Game 3:

Another tough affair. The Maroons keep the momentum. Nels Stewart gets things going and Glenn Anderson follows up. Doug Gilmour closes things up, but, it isn't enough.

The Maroons win 2-1.
 

Nalyd Psycho

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
24,415
15
No Bandwagon
Visit site
Game 4:

The Canadiens lock it up and play to their strength, Dominic Hasek. Clear visual of the puck and every rebound is collected. The Maroons control the pace, but the Canadiens get their way. Trottier scores the winner.

Canadiens win 1-0.
 

Nalyd Psycho

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
24,415
15
No Bandwagon
Visit site
Game 5:

With renewed vigour, the Maroons press harder and harder on Hasek. Everyone is crashing the net. The Canadiens try to defend, but only Chara is able to stop the Maroonslaught. But the steely eyed Hasek refuses to break. The Maroon defence and Giacomin are just as steady in their resolve. Anderson deflecting a beauty of a passhot from Messier breaks the game.

Maroons win 1-0.
 

Nalyd Psycho

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
24,415
15
No Bandwagon
Visit site
Game 6:

The Canadiens take the fight to the Maroons, pressing the attack a lot more, forcing the game wide open. The Maroons like this at first, getting goals from Messier and Schriner. But the Canadiens claw back with goals from Smith and Gilmour. Hasek's heroics prevent the Maroons from getting the winner and Trottier pots the OT winner.

Canadiens win 3-2 in OT.
 

Nalyd Psycho

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
24,415
15
No Bandwagon
Visit site
Game 7:

The Canadiens may have home ice advantage, but the crowd is 50/50 split. The Canadiens have yet to win back to back games in the series. The Maroons press early with Messier scoring when Anderson crashed the net. But the Canadiens are not rattled. They hold fort. Hasek locks it down. Mosienko gets the critical tying goal. With seconds to go, Mark Howe scores through a Trottier screen to get the series winning goal.

Montreal Canadiens win 2-1.

Montreal Canadiens win the series 4-3.

3 Stars:
1. Dominic Hasek
2. Mark Messier
3. Brian Trottier
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,155
14,478
Thanks Murphy for a good series. No surprises that this one went to seven. I love the Sutter line and Messier/Stewart is almost an unfair combo at centre.

The one good thing about facing the Maroons is the travel schedule.
 

Murphy

Registered User
Apr 2, 2005
2,104
1
Edmonton
I thought maybe this was the round you could be beat Outsider. I was wrong yet again......

Good job and a good team you put together, no shame in losing to you.

In related news, head coach Don Cherry has been relieved of his position. "He had a custom made team for him and yet he still couldn't seem to put it all together." gm Murphy has been quoted as saying.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad