ATD #10 - Jim Robson Final: San Francisco Spiders (1) vs. Victoria Secrets (3)

God Bless Canada

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San Francisco Spiders
co-GMs: Sturminator & Transplanted Caper
Coach: Cecil Hart

Johnny Bucyk (A) - Joe Sakic (C) - Alexander Maltsev
Frank Foyston - Denis Savard - Ed Litzenberger
Dean Prentice - Don McKenney - Ron Ellis
Bruce Stuart - Jack Adams - Dirk Graham
extras: Fred Stanfield, Vladimir Vikulov

Bill Gadsby - Niklas Lidstrom (A)
Hod Stuart - Cy Wentworth
Phil Russell - Bert Corbeau
extra: Rod Seiling

Grant Fuhr
Dave Kerr

Power play units:
PP1: Bucyk - Sakic - Foyston - Maltsev - Lidstrom
PP2: McKenney - Savard - Litzenberger - Stuart - Gadsby

Penalty killing units:
PK1: Sakic - Graham - Lidstrom - Wentworth
PK2: Prentice - Maltsev - Stuart - Gadsby

Victoria Secrets
co-GMs: MXD & Jungosi
Coach: Pete Green

Bert Olmstead - Mario Lemieux (C) - Cam Neely
Kevin Stevens - Jacques Lemaire (A) - Jack Darragh
Bobby Holik - Phil Watson - Bobby Rousseau
Don Maloney - Tom Dunderdale - Odie Cleghorn
extras: Bernie Nicholls, Murray Murdoch

Sprague Cleghorn - Herb Gardiner
George Boucher (A) - Bill White
Bullet Joe Simpson - Taffy Abel
extra: Glen Harmon

Frank Brimsek
Vladimir Dzurilla

Power play units:
PP1: Olmstead - Lemieux - Neely - Cleghorn - Boucher
PP2: Stevens - Lemaire - Darragh - Simpson - Gardiner

Penalty killing units:
PK1: Rousseau - Watson - White - Abel
PK2: Holik - Maloney - Gardiner - Boucher​
 

God Bless Canada

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This series has a very intriguing match-up in that it's a battle between the best line in the draft (Victoria's Lemieux line) and the best defensive pairing in the draft (San Fran's top pairing). And it will probably come down to who wins that battle.

Worth noting is that Nanaimo had one of the best top pairings in the draft (top three to five), and Victoria received very strong support in that series, too.

Victoria has good secondary scoring. Their second line is very productive. Bobby Rousseau on the third line is a very capable scorer. Their fourth line can get a couple goals over the course of a series. But their top line will dictate whether they win or lose.

sturm has said before that he's not a big line-matching guy, so I'm guessing the only match-up he'll really want is the Lidstrom-Gadsby pairing out there against Lemieux. He had three lines capable of playing against Lemieux's line. (Savard's line would be the exception).

San Fran might have a little more offensive depth. Savard's the best offensive player on either second line. And Jack Adams would be the best offensive player on a fourth line. But if San Fran can't find a solution to the Lemieux line, any edge in offensive depth will be moot.

I give Victoria slight edges in net and behind the bench. Fuhr's a bit of a polarizing player. There are some guys in this thing who are big Fuhr guys. I'm one of them. When the game was on the line, whether it was 2-1 or 6-5, he made the big save. And there are some who argue that Fuhr's success was merely a by-product of the Oilers, and that he shouldn't be in the HHOF. Still, I think Brimsek is the better goalie. Not by as much as some would argue, but Brimsek is better.

And I also give Victoria the edge behind the bench. But again, it's not by much. Hart and Green are in that second tier of ATD coaches. In fact, there were quite a few coaches in this division in that second tier. I give Green the edge over Hart, but it's not much - certainly not enough to be the difference-maker.
 

Sturminator

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Worth noting is that Nanaimo had one of the best top pairings in the draft (top three to five), and Victoria received very strong support in that series, too.

I think the fact that pit didn't show up until half the votes were in had something to do with that. Also, Pilote - Salming are not Lidstrom - Gadsby. In the words of Pilote - Salming's own GM, San Francisco's duo is "easily the best pairing in the draft." This is a different challenge, entirely, for Mario and Co.
 

Sturminator

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First off, congrats to MXD and Jungo for assembling a very strong team and making it this far in a meat-grinder division. I wasn't looking forward to facing either Victoria or the excellent Nanaimo team you guys just knocked off. Ok, enough pleasantries. As it was against the Seals in the 2nd round, the Spiders again face a team with a strong top line, but a 2nd unit that is vulnerable for a number of reasons:

- Jacques Lemaire is a strong 2nd line center, but he is not well-suited to being the offensive leader of a scoringline. Lemaire was more a complementary player than a scoring leader throughout his career, and was a mediocre playmaker for a center. He was rarely, if ever, even the best scorer on his own line, and had the benefit of excellent-to-legendary playmakers on his wings (Mahovlich and then Lafleur, among others). Considering the level of help he received, Lemaire's scoring credentials [top-10 points x3: 4th, 5th, 10th - top-10 goals x1: 4th - top-10 assists x1: 6th] are well below average for a guy who is expected to lead a scoringline. Even in the playoffs (where much of his reputation was made), Lemaire actually only led his own team in scoring once - 1979 when he tied with Lafleur. I'm certainly not calling Lemaire's playoff record weak, but this is not a player who was ever counted on to lead a team or even a line offensively. On Victoria's 2nd line, however, he is thrust into that role.

- and what help does he have on the wings? Kevin Stevens' inability to lead an ATD scoringline should be fairly obvious. Without Mario Lemieux centering him, Stevens' only other two peak seasons before he broke his face (90-91 and 93-94) saw him finish 16th and 15th in goal scoring and in the 20-30 range in points. I am trying hard to be fair to Stevens here (he wasn't a complete leech offensively) and show that he did have goal-scoring talent without Lemieux, but he wasn't top-10 good without #66 and his peak is basically four years. It should be clear enough that this is not a guy who will lead a scoringline anywhere, especially as a playmaker.

- and finally, we have Jack Darragh, a guy who has become among the most overrated players in the ATD. Darragh is probably the single biggest beneficiary of the rather shallow Retro Conn-Smythe project, basically getting drafted as a 2nd liner on the strength of his Cup finals performances in 1920 and 1921. And Darragh was very good in those serieses. The problem is that when you look past those two Cup finals, there is little remaining to suggest that Darragh is even a top-6 worthy ATD player, nevermind a good one. Starting with the secondary characteristics, Darragh is described in his legends bio as follows:

HHOF said:
He was a superb skater, a very clever stickhandler and had a good backhand shot

He is also described there as a "pacifist" in a violent era. Nothing is mentioned, positive or negative, by any source I know of about Darragh's checking prowess. So, overall, we have an excellent skater who was probably a bit soft and an average checker. Now, what can we say about Darragh's offensive abilities? This is where the problems pop up: he wasn't especially good. For the era in question, Jack Darragh had a long, healthy career, breaking into the NHA in the 10-11 season and retiring after the 23-24 NHL season with few games missed along the way.

- in the 7 seasons Darragh played in the NHA (10-11 to 16-17), he placed top-5 in league scoring once, finishing 5th with 26 goals in 16-17 with Frank Nighbor centering him. He led the Sens in scoring once, in 13-14, when he placed 6th in league scoring. Other than those two years, Darragh was never within spitting distance of the NHA scoring leaders. His playoff record for this period:

1911: 0-0-0 in 2 Cup Challenge games.
1915: 4-0-4 in 5 games (split between 2 NHA playoff games and 3 Cup finals games). It's unclear where and when Darragh scored this year. At any rate, Ottawa beat the Montreal Wanderers 4-1 in a two game total goals playoff before getting crushed 3-0 (26 goals to 8) by the Taylor - Nighbor - MacKay Vancouver Millionaires.
1917: 2-0-2 in 2 NHA playoff games.

- Darragh's peak seems to have come during the NHL years. In the six seasons Jack Darragh played in the NHL, he placed top-5 in points once (4th in 19-20) and top-5 in assists twice (1st in 20-21 and 2nd in 19-20). This, plus his two most productive seasons in the NHA, is basically the full extent of Jack Darragh's scoring credentials. This is not just rhetoric; if BM feels inclined to post Darragh's vs. #2 scoring results, I'm certain they will support what I'm saying here. Anyway, Darragh's NHL playoff record:

1919: 2-0-2 in 5 games
1921: 0-0-0 in 2 games
1923: 1-0-1 in 2 games
1924: 0-0-0 in 2 games

In fairness to Darragh, 23 and 24 were clearly post-peak years for him. He retired for a year after the 20-21 season, and was not the same player after he came back. I don't believe in penalizing players for less-than-stellar results past their peaks.

Nothing much impressive so far. In fact, if not for his performances in the 20 and 21 Cup finals (and the distorting effect the RCS project has had on these performances), Jack Darragh would almost certainly be forgotten by history and likely find himself in the MLD on this forum. His career playoff performances outside of these serieses are nothing special and there are a host of undrafted or 4th line NHA/early NHL players with equal or superior regular season credentials, including Odie Cleghorn and Tom Dunderdale on Darragh's own team, and Jack Adams on the Spiders.

But Darragh did come through for the Sens in 20 and 21, scoring 3 and then 2 goals in the deciding game five of consecutive Cup finals, tying the Franks (Nighbor and Foyston) for the scoring lead in the 1920 Cup finals and leading the league in the 1921 finals. This is why Darragh gets drafted. These two years. I remember commenting to Nalyd in the lead-in to ATD#8 that I thought Darragh was underrated (he had gone in the 20th round in ATD#7) and would make a good late pick to round out a 2nd line or an excellent 4th liner, and that's still what I think. As an ATD scoringliner, Darragh is a late-pick, complementary guy.

Like both of his linemates on this Victoria team, Jack Darragh doesn't have the gear to be the offensive leader of an ATD scoringline. In Victoria's favor (and in fairness to Darragh), he was probably more playmaker than goalscorer (which helps with Lemaire and Stevens as his linemates) and his NHA numbers are probably hurt relative to modern standards because only goals were recorded during this period. Nevertheless, a Victoria 2nd line which depends on Jack Darragh for primary playmaking duties and which lacks a true offensive leader is going to be hard-pressed to keep up with a very strong Spiders 2nd line about which there are no questions regarding skill level and leadership.
 

Sturminator

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Notes on strategy and whatnot:

- Lidstrom and Gadsby will play their standard 30 minutes+ per game with the 1st unit. Given San Francisco's home ice advantage, the Secrets would have to jump through a lot of hoops (including reducing the unit's icetime) to get Lemieux's line on the ice for long against another pairing even without matching. But yes, we will look to have Lidstrom - Gadsby on the ice in all even strength situations against the Lemieux line, with the Sakic line getting the lion's share of the icetime with the Spiders' top pairing.

- the only line we will try to keep away from the Lemieux line is the Savard line, which should not be difficult. Line matching can be tricky, but line un-matching is fairly easy, especially with home ice and when done between units at different positions on their respective teams' offensive depth charts (in this case 1st and 2nd units).

- Foyston and Litzenberger will again switch sides in certain game situations: in this case, when matched against Victoria's 1st, 3rd and 4th lines. The logic behind this:

- Cam Neely is best countered by physical LWs whenever possible, not only because of his power, but because of his fragility.

- Bobby Rousseau (Victoria's 3rd line RW) is notoriously soft, and a poor matchup against the much more powerful Litzenberger while Holik's physicality on the LW is largely wasted against the waterbug Foyston. Litz vs. Rousseau and Foyston vs. Holik is much better for San Francisco than the other way around, as it plays against the strengths of the Secrets' checkingline players.

- smacking around Odie Cleghorn is the best method of getting to his brother, Sprague. Litzenberger has the strength and aggression to take liberties with the younger Cleghorn when they are on the ice together, as do the rest of San Francisco's left wings. Odie Cleghorn is a marked man in this series.​

Litz will stay at his "normal" RW position to do battle with Kevin Stevens when matched straight across against Victoria's 2nd line.

- in general, the Spiders will attack Victoria's right wings (with the exception of Darragh) physically whenever possible. Neely is a serious injury risk, Rousseau hated contact and Odie Cleghorn is a Sprague Cleghorn game misconduct waiting to happen. I doubt anyone questions the physicality of Bucyk, Litzenberger or Stuart (all of whom were also quite big), but it should be noted that Dean Prentice had plenty of jam in him, as well. He is described here (you have to scroll down to page 141) as:

a strong and aggressive left winger

I think Prentice's toughness is fairly well acknowledged, but it was underrated by one poster in the lineup assassination thread, so I wanted to make it clear.
 

Sturminator

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Well, my wife's out shopping today, so I guess I'll just get my comments on this series all wrapped up. General remarks, then:

Goaltending: edge to Victoria. I'm a Frank Brimsek fan. I've got Mr. Zero in my 2nd tier of goalies and Fuhr in the 3rd. Fuhr's playoff record (which I don't think is "polarizing" at all) may narrow the gap a bit, but I think Brimsek was simply the better player.

Coaching: even. I don't see a particular advantage to either team in this department. Hart and Green are both strong 2nd tier coaches.

Breaking down the skaters can't be done with such easy 1-to-1 analysis. A few points:

- Health: Victoria's vaunted 1st line is a fragile unit, and are now entering their third playoff round. I've no doubt they'll suit up until their limbs fall off, but are Lemieux and Neely at 100% (I'll leave Stevens out of if, as he's a short peak player, but one who suffered from a freak injury)? This is the danger you face when you draft this kind of player. If they face too much physical pressure over the course of the playoffs, they will wear down. Victoria's top line had Red Horner to contend with in opening round, and the very aggressive (and occasionally dirty) Pilote - Salming pairing in the last series (not to mention Mike Peca). Is the physical beating beginning to take it's toll? Lemieux will be on the ice, but will this be Super Mario or the Mario who couldn't bend over to tie his own skates? I know Lemieux will be out there - it's not a question of his toughness...only his health.

Neely is probably the bigger risk for Victoria, though. Neely's peak was very short due to injury and if Cam isn't at 100%, the Secrets are in trouble. Neely's had a hard road of defensemen to fight through thus far and it doesn't get any easier with Bill Gadsby patrolling his side of the ice. With Lidstrom as a partner, Gadsby is free to play the aggressive, hitting game he was known for (ask Tim Horton), which is bad news for Cam Neely. Nor is it good that Neely now must deal most of the time with Johnny Bucyk, who is quite possibly the hardest-hitting left wing in history. Even when not matched against the Bucyk line, Neely doesn't get a break with Litzenberger, Prentice and Stuart manning the left wing on their respective units. Even a small loss in effectiveness on the Lemieux line could be disasterous for the Secrets.

- Skill: Much is made of the Lemieux line, but are they actually better than the Sakic line? The only matchup Victoria wins when comparing 1st lines is at center, and it's not like Joe Sakic is a bum. Mario is tremendous, but Joe Sakic is the greatest playoff performer of his generation (besides maybe Lidstrom), so the matchup is hardly a landslide. Bucyk vs. Neely goes to Cam only if you honestly believe you're getting 100% full peak Neely for seven games, which at this point seems highly unlikely, even moreso because he'll be doing battle with Johnny Bucyk in the corners in this series. Neely's peak was higher than Bucyk's, but the difference isn't great, and Neely's peak was much, much, much shorter than Bucyk's. The odds of Neely actually outperforming Bucyk over seven games are slim. At this point, the Secrets are still ahead, but what do we make of Maltsev vs. Olmstead? Offensively, they aren't even close. Olmstead was a good digger and has solid credentials to be a 1st line support player (I like Olmstead and disagree with those who say he doesn't belong on a 1st line under any circumstances), but Maltsev's skills are simply on a different level, entirely, with very little to seperate him from Kharlamov, Mikhailov and Makarov when you actually take a look at their career achievements. This is a clear win for the Spiders, and although Olmstead makes up ground in terms of checking, Maltsev is the wrong matchup for Olmstead in terms of defensive play. You don't match a big, slow, gritty checker against a very fast forward with outstanding stickhandling skills if you want to get the best out of your checking forwards. Olmstead matches well defensively against powerforwards like Howe, Neely, etc. Against Maltsev, much of what made him effective as a checker is lost. At the end of the day, when questionable health and the ugly Olmstead vs. Maltsev matchup are taken into account, it's not at all clear which 1st line is actually the better unit.

- The biggest (and longest, in terms of icetime) unit vs. unit mismatch in this series is Cleghorn - Gardiner vs. Gadsby - Lidstrom. Even if you favor Victoria's top line (which is far from a sure thing), comparing the 1st pairings is brutal for Victoria. Cleghorn and Gadsby are on roughly the same level, but the other comparison here is just unfair to Herb Gardiner. I don't really get why Gardiner is on the top pairing over Bill White, as he's really not deserving of the kind of icetime Cleghorn should be pulling, and Boucher - White are probably deserving of more than they'll get as a 2nd pairing. This is why I believe in giving my best players the most icetime: to avoid having a guy like Herb Gardiner out there against other teams' top lines pulling 25+ minutes a night, but I don't see a way for Victoria to avoid such a situation at this point without screwing up chemistry on their blueline. Gardiner is a solid 2nd pairing guy in my opinion (I'm not saying he's a bum), but he's in over his head as a top pairing ATD defenseman.

Then there's the question of Sprague Cleghorn and how he'll react to Odie getting run every shift. It's not just the left wings - the Spiders' bottom pairing defensemen (Russell and Corbeau, against whom Odie will often skate) are also extremely physical. Russell's speed and hitting ability should be well known as I assume a good number of people here saw him play (though here's a link to a good profile of Russell if you don't believe me), and Corbeau was picked by UM as the hardest hitter of the 20's, not to mention being a notorious pugilist. Will Sprague blow a gasket when Odie gets picked on? What happens to the Victoria defense if and when that happens? The Secrets can, of course, choose to bench Odie Cleghorn before or during the series, but I'm not really sure what kind of message that would send to the team.

- issues with the skill level and composition of Victoria's 2nd line have already been mentioned.

- Speed: The Spiders are the faster team, and present a difficult matchup for the Secrets defensively at a couple of key points. The problems of the Olmstead / Maltsev matchup have already been discussed, but the matchup of George Boucher against Sakic - Maltsev or Savard - Foyston is also not a good one for the Secrets. Both of San Francisco's scoringlines come at you with a very high level of speed and creativity, which is exactly what you want to attack defensemen with mobility issues. MXD says that no source lists Boucher as slow, and that is somewhat true. the HHOF simply says that he was "not blessed with great speed", though Legends also called Lionel Conacher a "competent skater" which is something of a mockery considering that we know from other sources (which I personally uncovered) that he was a slug. Given the site's tendency to sugarcoat their profiles, any criticism in an HHOF profile should be taken seriously. At best, Boucher is an average skater, and at worst...well, he could be pretty slow.

MXD will tell you that it's impossible for a defenseman in Boucher's era to score a lot of points without speed, but won't mention that Buck's defining attribute was his stickhandling ability, which was apparently excellent. In the pre-forward-pass era, stickhandling was of greater importance than in the modern game because a single player weaving with the puck was the most effective way of bringing it up ice. A defenseman with excellent stickhandling skills may well have been able to excel in this era in spite of poor skating. At any rate, even if you think Boucher's an average skater, any lack of mobility against the Spiders' scoringlines is dangerous.

That should just about cover it.
 

MXD

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Litz vs. Rousseau, playoffs record

Litz : Games : 40 Goals : 5 Assists : 13 Points : 18 PIMS : 34
Rousseau : Games 128 Goals : 27 Assists : 57 Points : 84 PIMs :69

It's a bit unfair to compare Litz playoffs with Rousseau due to... well, Litz having played much less than Rousseau, but I think it's quite disturbing having a supposedly supremely talented having a weaker record than Rousseau, a checker and utility player, who supposedly disliked physical play, but nonetheless had better playoffs, if not a better career, than Litzenburger.


As for Neely/Lemieux, I think nobody should penalize a player than remained in the league after a hit that would have sent many in retirement. Neely was as healthy as anybody prior to Ulf's hit, and started to miss lots of game after the hit. But the thing is : HE CAME BACK, at least. As far as health was concerned, I think there should be much more concerns around a guy like Maltsev, whose career was notoriously short and never saw as much physicality than he has seen at this point.
 

God Bless Canada

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For the record, Neely never missed a playoff game until 1992. That included two trips to the Stanley Cup final, and one trip to the conference final. He played hurt in 91 even after the Samuelsson hit, but wasn't as effective. Too bad - he likely would have set the record for goals in a post-season if not for the hit, regardless of whether Boston was eliminated by Pittsburgh. He was that dominant.

And Stevens injury occurred in the 93 playoffs. His stats looked good in 93-94 and in the lockout-shortened season, but he was nowhere near the same player that he was before the injury. He didn't play with the same aggressiveness, the same robust physical play, that he did before the injury. And it left him a shadow of his former self.

Incidentally, in 90-91, he was a second team all-star, and by the end of the 91 playoffs, there were already people lauding him as the best LW in the game.
 

pappyline

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Litz vs. Rousseau, playoffs record

Litz : Games : 40 Goals : 5 Assists : 13 Points : 18 PIMS : 34
Rousseau : Games 128 Goals : 27 Assists : 57 Points : 84 PIMs :69

It's a bit unfair to compare Litz playoffs with Rousseau due to... well, Litz having played much less than Rousseau, but I think it's quite disturbing having a supposedly supremely talented having a weaker record than Rousseau, a checker and utility player, who supposedly disliked physical play, but nonetheless had better playoffs, if not a better career, than Litzenburger.


As for Neely/Lemieux, I think nobody should penalize a player than remained in the league after a hit that would have sent many in retirement. Neely was as healthy as anybody prior to Ulf's hit, and started to miss lots of game after the hit. But the thing is : HE CAME BACK, at least. As far as health was concerned, I think there should be much more concerns around a guy like Maltsev, whose career was notoriously short and never saw as much physicality than he has seen at this point.
Litzenberger was on a team that only made the playoffs once during is 5 year peak and that one year he scored 8 points in 6 games. The next 6 years he was more of a role player (3rd line or utility) on 4 cup winners. I remember Rousseau as an offensive player.
 

Sturminator

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MXD said:
As far as health was concerned, I think there should be much more concerns around a guy like Maltsev, whose career was notoriously short and never saw as much physicality than he has seen at this point.

Ok, working backwards here...what?! Maltsev didn't have a short career. You're probably mixing him up with someone else, but Alexander Maltsev was the most durable Soviet forward of his era not named Mikhailov. This is the guy who missed almost an entire season to injury in 78-79 at the age of 30, and then came back to place 4th and 2nd in MVP voting in the next two seasons (both times an 1st team all-star), topping it off by winning Best Forward at the Worlds in 1981 at the age of 32. Even throwing out the one year he was injured, Maltsev had a twelve year offensive peak, which is good for an NHL player even now, and was simply exceptional for a Soviet of that era. I refer the reader to the Soviet Hockey thread (and the links to my source information at the end) if anyone doesn't believe me.

It's a bit unfair to compare Litz playoffs with Rousseau due to... well, Litz having played much less than Rousseau, but I think it's quite disturbing having a supposedly supremely talented having a weaker record than Rousseau, a checker and utility player, who supposedly disliked physical play, but nonetheless had better playoffs, if not a better career, than Litzenburger.

No, actually it's unfair because Litzenberger only played in a single playoff round during his prime - 1959, when he put up 3-5-8 in 6 games against the eventual Cup champion, Montreal. It was actually a bloody impressive performance considering the competition. At any rate, the vast majority of Litz's playoff games were played in Toronto after the car crash that basically ended his prime (and incidentally, killed his wife - sad story). Litzenberger was mainly a checker on Imlach's Leafs teams, but that's not why we drafted him. We drafted him for the years when he was a dominant powerforward in the league, putting up three consecutive top-6 points finishes and top-4 goals finishes (56-57 to 58-59) despite being the only offensive star in Chicago.

If you want to count Litzenberger's Leafs years, he did win 4 Cups with that team. At any rate, Litzenberger is the 3rd best offensive player on the Spiders' 2nd line. His job is to fight for the puck in the corners and go to the front of the net to convert the chances his linemates create. Strange that you'd criticize Litzenberger's later playoff performances and use the "he came back" argument as a defense of Cam Neely.

I don't penalize Neely for coming back from the Ulf hit. I penalize him for having a short athletic peak, which is exactly the same thing for which everyone should penalize Ed Litzenberger. Afterall, Litzenberger with a 10-year peak is a first ballot hall of famer and probably a 3rd round pick. Of course you should penalize him for not playing at a high level for longer, just as you should Neely. As a point of reference, let's look at the regular season scoring credentials of the two short-peak forwards in question here:

Litzenberger:
top-10 points: 5th, 5th, 6th
top-10 goals: 3rd, 4th, 4th, 9th
top-10 assists: 6th

Neely:
top-10 points: n/a
top-10 goals: 2nd, 3rd, 8th, 9th
top-10 assists: n/a

Was Cam Neely actually the better player? He certainly has the better playoff record, but then again, he had a hell of a lot more opportunity than Litzenberger before getting injured. In terms of real career accomplisments, however, it's not at all clear that Neely was the better player. Cam has a marginally better peak as a goal-scorer, but he's far behind Litz in terms of playmaking and overall scoring and even using point-per-game (giving Neely a break because of his injures), Cam still only cracks the top-10 twice, while Litz does it three times. It should also be noted that this is a comparison between Victoria's 2nd best forward and San Francisco's 6th best.

As far as Bobby Rousseau goes, he's an elite 3rd line scorer, no doubt, as is his center, Phil Watson. But then again, so are Don McKenney and Dean Prentice on the other side, and Ron Ellis was a better scorer than Bobby Holik. As far as Rousseau's softness goes, I remember him well from his time as a Ranger. The guy was very skilled, but a total creampuff, and contributed to the overall lack of toughness on those Rangers teams. If you don't believe me, here's what Joe Pelletier has to say about Rousseau in his profile:

Pelletier said:
Rousseau was an interesting player who did not always endear himself to the Montreal faithful. He had a reputation of being afraid of physical contact, often frantically leaping out of harm's way. While some saw that as a lack of courage, Rousseau thought of it strictly as a matter of survival.

Not exactly a compliment, there. Rousseau has a reputation as a strong checker, but do you really want a guy like that going against forwards like Bucyk, Litz, Prentice and Stuart? I wouldn't be completely comfortable with that.
 

Sturminator

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For the record, Neely never missed a playoff game until 1992. That included two trips to the Stanley Cup final, and one trip to the conference final. He played hurt in 91 even after the Samuelsson hit, but wasn't as effective. Too bad - he likely would have set the record for goals in a post-season if not for the hit, regardless of whether Boston was eliminated by Pittsburgh. He was that dominant.

True, although no one drafts Cam Neely for what he did from 83 to 89. He played in all of those games, but heading into the 1990 postseason Cam had 34 points in 44 career playoff games, which in the 80's is chicken feed. Neely's prime years playoffs performances span exactly two years: 1990 and 1991. They were two great years, but they were still only two years, no matter how you slice it.
 

God Bless Canada

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True, although no one drafts Cam Neely for what he did from 83 to 89. He played in all of those games, but heading into the 1990 postseason Cam had 34 points in 44 career playoff games, which in the 80's is chicken feed. Neely's prime years playoffs performances span exactly two years: 1990 and 1991. They were two great years, but they were still only two years, no matter how you slice it.
Actually, I thought some of the best hockey of his career was in the second round of the 88 playoffs against Montreal. It's a small sample, just five games. He carried Boston to that series win. I thought he was as dominant in that series as he was in 91. It was the first time since the 40s that Boston had defeated Montreal in the post-season.

Neely also had five goals in four games in 87.
 

Sturminator

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You are splitting hairs here, GBC. Cam also had quite a few pre-prime serieses in which he did nothing, but I'm not going to criticize him for it. Cam's overall postseason career pre-1990 is nothing special.
 

God Bless Canada

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You are splitting hairs here, GBC. Cam also had quite a few pre-prime serieses in which he did nothing, but I'm not going to criticize him for it. Cam's overall postseason career pre-1990 is nothing special.
Well, I would say that being a team's best player when they end a 40-year post-season drought against their most hated foe would count as something quite special. It certainly should not be discounted. It should be applauded, noted and considered when evaluating the two teams in this series.

And does anyone really care what he did do, or didn't do in Vancouver in his first three seasons? I want to know what he did at his peak from 87 to 94. He had 85 points in 81 games. That's good, but what's most impressive is he had 53 goals in those 81 games.

His job with the Secrets is to score goals. Does it matter he had 21 more goals than assists? No. He's there to score goals, and playing with Lemieux and Olmstead, that's what he's going to do.

He paced his organization to ending one of hockey's most dubious runs of futility. And he helped his team reach the finals twice - the only times Boston has reached the Cup final in the last 30 years.

Incidentally, Neely is fourth all-time in post-season goals per game.
 
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God Bless Canada

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And just to clarify one thing I said earlier: I have no problems with Grant Fuhr's playoff record. I think he was an outstanding goalie. People forget just how good he was in St. Louis at the end of his career. He won them a lot of one-goal games, 2-1 or 3-2 type games. And he could be a workhorse. At one time, he had spots No. 1 and 2 for most games played in a season. (79 games in 95-96, when he should have been a Hart finalist, and 74 games in 87-88, when he was a Hart finalist).

But there are people here who believe that Grant Fuhr's playoff success was a by-product of those great Oiler teams of the 80s. And they question Fuhr's spot in the HHOF. I don't think there are a lot of current GMs with that attitude, but I think there are a few. I think it's hogwash. So that's why I said Fuhr is a bit of a polarizing figure around here. I don't know if anyone here has him in the top 10, but a lot have him in the top 20. (Myself included). And there are a few who probably have him as a back-up.
 

MXD

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Ouch...

Sorry for the weird screwups. I'll never post again when I don't have time to look at everything. It's pretty bad when you confuse Balderis and Maltsev, it's even worst considering we played against Balderis a few rounds ago.

I will post extended criticism and reply tomorrow, when the exam rush will be over (and before getting drunk, because I could say things like Stan Mikita shouldn't play on a 4th line with Jim Prentice -- yes, Jim is voluntary typo).
 

God Bless Canada

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Actually, he's 5th. You probably missed Barry Pederson, who's placement at 3rd all-time in playoff GPG shows well enough why per-game stats are highly distorting.
Pederson played 34 games his entire post-season career. Less than half a season for when he played the game. He played three playoff games after his tremendous first three seasons in the NHL.

Neely played 93 post-season games - more than two-and-a-half times as many playoff games as Pederson.
 

Sturminator

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Pederson played 34 games his entire post-season career. Less than half a season for when he played the game. He played three playoff games after his tremendous first three seasons in the NHL.

Neely played 93 post-season games - more than two-and-a-half times as many playoff games as Pederson.

Yes, and Neely had a fraction of Wayne Gretzky's career playoff games, and yet places ahead of him on the all-time playoff GPG list. Neely has two huge advantages here. First, he played his entire career in the late 80's/early 90's. Second, he has a very low percentage of playoff games out of his prime years. Normal, healthy players tend to have their per-game stats brought down by a gradual tailing off as they near the end of their careers. Neely went out on top, so to speak, though not by choice. Other luminaries from the 80's among the all-time top playoff goals-per-game scorers:

#8 - Craig Simpson
#13 - Dino Ciccarelli
#17 - Rick Vaive
#20 - Steve Payne
#24 - Darryl Sutter

Yeah, that's right. Darryl Sutter beats out Phil Esposito, Bernie Geoffrion and Gordie Howe in career goals-per-game in the playoffs. Take that, Original 6. How could that be? Well, Darryl played in the 80's and had one huge playoff goal-scoring year (1985) that throws out of whack what was otherwise only a decent playoff record. Steve Payne is much the same. Neely had more than just the one huge year, and was a strong playoff performer overall in what was actually a fairly brief playoff career (93 games wasn't a lot in that era), but trotting out any all-time scoring list that has Darryl Sutter at #24 is kind of ridiculous.

You'll never hear me debate Neely's peak value - he was incredible - but his peak was breathtakingly short by all-time standards, and no perversion of statistics can change that fact.
 

MXD

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Well, it seems I don't have much time to bring much more elements to the table at this point, and it's a bit sad. However...

- Much has been said with the Lidstrom/Gadsby pairing. It's probably the best pairing of the draft, as far as the sums of players are concerned. However, I don't see what makes them better, against our team, than the Salming/Pilote pairing that we faced in the last round. I fact, I could see them having much more problems against rough and tumble hockey than the aforementionned Salming and Pilote. And that's without taking in the consideration that the Bot-4 of Nanaimo was way superior to the Bot-4 of this San Francisco team. Stuart, Wentworth, Russell and Corbeau will provide VERY little offense, with Russell or Stuart being probably the best of those four. This team will have next to none offensive support from the Bottom four.

- Lemaire only led the playoffs in scoring once? That's about as relevant as saying Dirk Graham never led the playoffs in scoring, considering Lemaire was the two-way conscience with two offense-first players. The guy had a terrific playoff record -- one of the best of his era -- and he also plays with two guys who had a terrific playoff record as well.

- Sakic? No doubt, he was able to play great playoffs hockey. But he always did so with a terrific 1B center, something he, REALLY, doesn't have this time around.

- Adams, a terrific offensive 4th line Center? I wonder what makes him a better offensive player than Odie Cleghorne, who is even not the best offensive player on the Maloney - Dunderdale - Cleghorne line.

For everything else... This squad is not much different from Nanaimo. They may have a slightly better goaltender, but that's offset by a significantly worse defense.
 

God Bless Canada

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Yes, and Neely had a fraction of Wayne Gretzky's career playoff games, and yet places ahead of him on the all-time playoff GPG list. Neely has two huge advantages here. First, he played his entire career in the late 80's/early 90's. Second, he has a very low percentage of playoff games out of his prime years. Normal, healthy players tend to have their per-game stats brought down by a gradual tailing off as they near the end of their careers. Neely went out on top, so to speak, though not by choice. Other luminaries from the 80's among the all-time top playoff goals-per-game scorers:

#8 - Craig Simpson
#13 - Dino Ciccarelli
#17 - Rick Vaive
#20 - Steve Payne
#24 - Darryl Sutter

Yeah, that's right. Darryl Sutter beats out Phil Esposito, Bernie Geoffrion and Gordie Howe in career goals-per-game in the playoffs. Take that, Original 6. How could that be? Well, Darryl played in the 80's and had one huge playoff goal-scoring year (1985) that throws out of whack what was otherwise only a decent playoff record. Steve Payne is much the same. Neely had more than just the one huge year, and was a strong playoff performer overall in what was actually a fairly brief playoff career (93 games wasn't a lot in that era), but trotting out any all-time scoring list that has Darryl Sutter at #24 is kind of ridiculous.

You'll never hear me debate Neely's peak value - he was incredible - but his peak was breathtakingly short by all-time standards, and no perversion of statistics can change that fact.
Among the players you listed, Dino was the only one who played more than 80 games. (Equivalent to a full season for when those guys played). Sutter only played about 50 games. That does nothing for me. If Sutter or Vaive or Payne had played 80 or 90 games, and they were that high, I might be impressed. But the only guy from that list who I find impressive, besides Dino, is Craig Simpson, who led the playoffs in scoring and was a terrific goal scorer before his back went out in about 1991.
 

Sturminator

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Much has been said with the Lidstrom/Gadsby pairing. It's probably the best pairing of the draft, as far as the sums of players are concerned. However, I don't see what makes them better, against our team, than the Salming/Pilote pairing that we faced in the last round. I fact, I could see them having much more problems against rough and tumble hockey than the aforementionned Salming and Pilote.

I'm not really sure what to make of this. It seems an anti-argument. Gadsby - Lidstrom are clearly better, but...they're not better. Eh? And why should they have a problem with physical hockey? Gadsby was very physical and aggressive, so what...are you calling Lidstrom soft?

And that's without taking in the consideration that the Bot-4 of Nanaimo was way superior to the Bot-4 of this San Francisco team. Stuart, Wentworth, Russell and Corbeau will provide VERY little offense, with Russell or Stuart being probably the best of those four. This team will have next to none offensive support from the Bottom four.

Uhm, what gives you the impression that Hod Stuart will provide "VERY little offense"? That's ridiculous. The guy was known as a great skater, stickhandler and all-around offensive player, and was arguably the greatest player in hockey (there's an argument for Tom Phillips, as well) during his prime. Cy Wentworth led a Cup winner in scoring. As far as Bert Corbeau goes, I refer you to Evil Speaker's post from a past MLD:

This defenseman was intimidating in every sense of the word; he was big, strong, tough and physically punishing. According to Ultimate Hockey there was no better body-checker during the 1920’s. Despite his lust for physical play he was actually a very durable player. In every one of his seasons as an NHL player (10) he had over a 90% attendance record, which I believe isn’t too far off of the all-time record for defensemen.

This player spent a lot of time in the penalty box, but was still a very effective offensive player. He actually has one of the highest offensive peaks out of any defenseman remaining. Between 1917 and 1929, he finished top 6 in points by defensemen six times, only star defensemen King Clancy and Buck Boucher had more top 6 finishes during that time period. The man they called "old pig iron" has all the looks of a #1 defensemen so we are very glad to have him anchor our blue-line. Welcome to the team Mr. Bert Corbeau (D)

The claim that San Francisco's bottom-4 provide next to no offensive support is false, to put it nicely.

Lemaire only led the playoffs in scoring once? That's about as relevant as saying Dirk Graham never led the playoffs in scoring, considering Lemaire was the two-way conscience with two offense-first players.

Actually, no. The problem here is that Victoria's 2nd line lacks an offensive leader. All three are good enough to be complementary scoringline offensive players, but none are high-end. The Secret's 2nd line is all indians and no chief.

Sakic? No doubt, he was able to play great playoffs hockey. But he always did so with a terrific 1B center, something he, REALLY, doesn't have this time around.

I'm going to charitably assume that this comment is tongue-in-cheek. Next, perhaps we will move to criticizing Jean Beliveau, Wayne Gretzky, Steve Yzerman and Milt Schmidt for playing on teams with other great centers? Come now. Sakic was top-10 in points twice on a putrid Nordiques team before Forsberg was even in the NHL. Considering that Sakic was Lemieux/Gretzky dominant during Colorado's first Cup run (and outscored Forsberg by more than 50%) and then led the Avs offensively through the last two playoff rounds when Forsberg went down during the second Cup run, I don't know how anyone can say that Joe needed Peter to succeed. Seriously, this is nonsense.
 

MXD

Original #4
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I'm going to charitably assume that this comment is tongue-in-cheek. Next, perhaps we will move to criticizing Jean Beliveau, Wayne Gretzky, Steve Yzerman and Milt Schmidt for playing on teams with other great centers?

Well, if it's acceptable to criticize Jacques Lemaire for playing with a Top-20 player of all time, I guess many things are acceptable, and saying Sakic would greatly benefit from a potently offensive threat on the second line is definitely not the most offensive remark to be read in this thread...

Too bad I had little or no time for discussion (my co-gm didn't seem to, either), I just feel it will definitely screw up the process. Oh well, I'll keep that one for future reference.

Between 1917 and 1929, he finished top 6 in points by defensemen six times, only star defensemen King Clancy and Buck Boucher had more top 6 finishes during that time period. The man they called "old pig iron" has all the looks of a #1 defensemen so we are very glad to have him anchor our blue-line. Welcome to the team Mr. Bert Corbeau (D)

Do you realize I could have said the same for my 7th D-Men (obviously in a different era?)
 

Sturminator

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Well, if it's acceptable to criticize Jacques Lemaire for playing with a Top-20 player of all time, I guess many things are acceptable, and saying Sakic would greatly benefit from a potently offensive threat on the second line is definitely not the most offensive remark to be read in this thread...

It's only a criticism of Lemaire's ability to lead a line offensively, specifically as a playmaker, which is perfectly valid. I said and maintain that Lemaire is a strong 2nd liner, but he's a guy who needs more offensive help than you've given him. It's not a problem with the player, only how he's being used. I would gladly draft Lemaire in the future and put him on a line with a guy like Kariya (or whomever) to carry the offensive/playmaking duties.

As far as Sakic goes...he does have a strong offensive second line behind him, but really, every 1st liner benefits from having secondary scoring, because it takes checking pressure off of the top units. That's an obvious point, and not only relevant to Joe Sakic.

Too bad I had little or no time for discussion (my co-gm didn't seem to, either), I just feel it will definitely screw up the process. Oh well, I'll keep that one for future reference. Do you realize I could have said the same for my 7th D-Men (obviously in a different era?)

If he was playing, it might be relevant. Your 7th D is a strong offensive benchwarmer, for what it's worth. At any rate, I see no reason why a little healthy competition should turn bitter, and I hope the voting was not negatively affected by your lack of time. I don't think anyone wants to win that way. For what it's worth, I know the feeling, having missed my own team's semifinals berth in ATD#9 with a work crisis, though to be honest, I think Detroit would have won with or without me in the thread. Actually, I think we've done pretty well not crossing swords thus far, MXD.
 

raleh

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Game 1

Game one was an overtime thriller that set the pace for this series. The pre-game press conference was likely the most boring in recent history, as Sakic, Lidstrom, and Neely all spit out as many cliches as they could and Lemieux didn't even show up because of a golf conflict.

Cam Neely opened the scoring on the first rush of the game with Lemieux. Lemieux took a pass from Cleghorn coming in his own zone and lumbered up the ice. He seemed to offer the puck up to Lidstrom, but pulled it back in the last minute and walked around him, then fed a beautiful pass right onto the stick of Neely who jammed it past Fuhr. Lemieux was everywhere this night, but everywhere he was, so was Lidstrom. Mario would add a goal to his assist early in the second as the Secrets went up 2-0, but Lidstrom limited the playoff scoring leader to two shots on net in the remaining period and a half.

Meanwhile, Bucyk scored a powerplay goal on a brilliant individual effort. He took a run at Rousseau in the corner, who jumped out of the way leaving the puck behind. Bucyk gathered it up, fought his way past Gadsby and lifted the puck over Brimsek's shoulder. Then, with less than five minutes in the third, Buck Boucher was the victim of a Denis Savard Spin-o-rama as Savard even the score.

After two scoreless overtime periods it looked like this game might go on forever. At the beginning of the third, Joe Sakic stripped the puck from Jacques Lemaire and in the Victoria zone and ripped a wrist shot between Brimsek's legs to win the game 3-2.

San Fransisco wins game one 3-2 in triple overtime.
San Fransisco leads series 1-0.
 

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