Thumbs up, let's do this.
i agree - dryden definitely has an advantage in net. as for esposito, he's certainly the better goalie in the regular season but, both chabot and holmes, our starter, have him licked in the playoffs. i'll make my case for holmes later but, i believe he's very much a lower-tier #1 in the all-time draft. he was an integral part backstopping 4 different teams to 4 stanley cups. he's certainly no dryden but, he won't lose us any games as well.
Thank you. You said it. I think it's a riddiculous argument -- one of the cheapest in this thing -- but you said it, so I'll go with it. I really like Tony Esposito and Marcel Dionne. I've drafted them both in this thing and I think they both have a ton of game. But Marcel's a well documented playoff flop. He's never carried a team anywhere ... his scoring prowess vanishes when the games get important. Dave Schultz has had more playoff success, and I'm thrilled to hear you're willing to trade your 2nd line center for my backup goalie. Trade accepted.
Now that you only have one scoring line, let's go to work disassembling that too:
I voted Dallas as a #2 seed in this division, but I think the playoffs could be their downfall. I'm sure many disagree with that assessment, but this team really reminds me of the 07-08 Anaheim Ducks squad, but maybe better defensively and worse offensively. A team that will be in tough to score, and while they're solid defensively, they have a tons of undisciplined players who in turn could put them a man short quite a bit.
Reasonable analogy to the '08 Ducks, but I'd much rather we back it up a season and compare this team to the '07 variety, with which it shares much in common as well. I don't understand "the playoffs could be their downfall" at all ... that seems to me to be the exact opposite of what happens in the playoffs. I love the idea of using my size to absolutely wear out the same group of chicken forwards game after game after game ... all that's going to be left of the thistles by about game 5 is twigs and stems.
For one thing, it's a total contrast in style. Kenora has tremendous speed and offensive depth. They're probably the most explosive team in the draft. And not just up front, either. They have elite offensive defencemen in Kelly and Tremblay. Dallas, meanwhile, is loaded with robust physical players who love to hit. Their team defence is outstanding.
Don't overrate Tremblay; Robinson and Pronger both have more offensively. It's a bit like saying Roman Hamrlik has more offensive game than Bobby Orr -- no, he's tilted more offensively, but he's not better.
I think one of the most interesting match-ups in the draft is Kenora's top two lines against Robinson and Pronger. Robinson or Pronger will likely be on the ice for 45 to 50 minutes per night. They're two of the best in the draft at combining size, speed and hockey sense. Robinson's still the standard for the big, skilled, mobile defenceman. He can hit, too. Pronger's the closest we've seen to Pronger, but he lacks Pronger's consistency. They have the mobility to keep up with the Lach line and the Dionne line.
Agreed on all fronts. Power on power. And Robinson and Pronger will obviously skate big minutes.
I don't know if the same could be said for Leo Boivin - a rock in his own zone, but not the most fleet of foot for defencemen. Paul Henderson said Boivin was nicknamed "The Fire Hydrant." Can a guy with that moniker thrive against guys like Blake and Lafleur? And how will he do against a transition game that boasts Kelly (one of the best offensive defenceman the game will ever see) and J.C. Tremblay, who should be in the HHOF?
Wow, that's unfair ... if you compared all 28 1st lines to all 27 other 3rd pairs, you'll find 756 matchups that wildly favor the 1st lines. I don't actually want to do the legwork on that, but Boivin's piss-and-vinegar and Johansson's positional sense and awareness are probably going to be well above-average as far as results go, and if we're evaluating 7th defensemen, Iafrate's size and mobility would compliment Boivin or Johansson.
I don't think it would be a stretch to say that Kenora has the top four, maybe the top five, offensive threats in this series.
Lafleur, Dionne, Lach, Lindros, McDonald, Blake, Martinec is how I see the forwards. Assuming papershoes is going to use Kelly as a defenseman and not a 4th forward, I'll slot in him and Robinson probably right behind Lindros.
Dallas has a big edge in net. Not only do they have far and away the best goalie in the series, I think they have the second-best. It's been a long time since we've said that. Holmes and Chabot are probably upper-tier back-ups. Chabot played his way out of New York in the 32 playoffs.
More to follow ...
And I think Dallas has an edge behind the bench. I think Imlach's a better coach than Hitchcock. And I don't think it's close. But Dallas has a team that is tailor-made for Hitchcock. You can't say the same for Kenora. No assistant coach will change the fact that Imlach is not a good match for Kenora. If Dallas gets ahead by a couple games, the mutiny could begin.
Agree on all points. Hell, I'd like Punch Imlach to coach my team ...
The bottom line for this series is: will Dallas be able to score enough goals to win? It's a favourable situation for them to score goals - the opponent has arguably the worst goaltending in the draft and they favour a wide-open offensive style. If you think Dallas can score enough goals - and it is a tough question, they have the worst offence in the draft - then you have to pick them. If you don't think they can score, go with Kenora.
Maybe it's just semantics, but I see it a little differently. The Dallas offense is a slow, lumbering, physical, nasty offense. Lindros, Lanny, Linsemen and Hunter leading the forecheck. Andreychuk and Claude sitting in front of the goal picking up the trash. To me, that's a low-complexity, low-yield, consistent way to score goals.
Contrast that to Kenora's scoring lines ... it's all small, all quick, all skilled ... these guys will score pretty, but they're not going to score ugly. Clark Gillies may be able to score some ugly, but that's it. "Will Kenora score as much as they're used to / they've needed this season?" is a better question. everyone know that -- per papershoes assessment earlier -- Dionne and Esposito are going to vanish about 10 minutes into game 1, which is going to cut off one of Kenora's legs and really hurt that 1-2 punch. I don't imagine Kenora had to play too many grinding battles this season, because they don't haev the warriors for that.
i believe this is one of our keys to victory. as you mentioned, dallas has a number of undisciplined players that will spend plenty of time in the penalty box.
Yes, yes, yes, thank you. Again, I'm more than happy to play by your rules here. You (and others) have looked at my roster and said "OMG THEY HAVE CLAUDE LEMIEUX AND DALE HUNTER AND LEO BOIVIN AND KEN LINSEMAN AND CHRIS PRONGER THEY'LL GET PENALTIES AND SUSPENSIONS OMG" without thinking it through.
What ELSE do you think is going to be happening? You've praised Kris Draper ... how well do you think he's going to play sitting on the bench looking at Claude Lemieux out there running around? How tolerant of Ken Linseman's bull**** do you think Clark Gillies is going to be? Anyone else see some matching minors there? While Chris Pronger is enjoying his time in the penalty box, which one (or more) of your 170 lb forwards will be enjoying their time in the ambulance?
I think people are really underrating how badly your team is about to get abused. Larry Robinson can end someone's series. So can Pronger. Boivin. Bouchard. Lindros. Lemieux. You only have 1 forward who can stand up to those guys, and he's your 6th forward (or 5th?) Gillies ... he's going to have his hands full doing it all on his own.
the kenora powerplay, rated as the top in the division, can capitalize equally with TWO powerplay lines. the dallas pk is good but, i don't think they can continually stop a two-line onslaught led by the likes of lafleur, dionne, martinec, kelly, and tremblay.
Brother, if it's a
"continuous onslaught" then you're going to lose the series because by game 4 you're only going to have 8 forwards left.
It's fun to look at 4 really skilled forwards and say, "that'll be awesome", but talk me through your unstoppable powerplay ... diagram it for me, how's it going to work. Coach Hitchcock will appreciate seeing this. Your team can cycle the puck like champs and they have tons of skill, but who's going to be parked in front of Ken Dryden? Gillies? OK, that's fine ... who on the 1st unit? Elmer Lach? He gives up 9 inches and 50 lbs to my goalie. That's going to be the silliest screen in hockey history.
Since your super-strong powerplay won't be able to generate traffic in front of Dryden, how are you going to score? Shots from 40 feet? Through no traffic? Past Ken Dryden? If you think that's going to work, you should probably go watch some more Ken Dryden film. Which one of your super-skilled forwards is going to go scoop up rebounds? And more importantly, what type of health insurance will your team provide him after he does that for 6 or 7 games?
mike grant and, to a lesser extent, silas griffis, provide a strong defensive presence. and, harry mummery provides size, grit, and defensive presence. and, should we feel our defense is not strong enough, we can always sub in the 5-time cup-winning defensive defensman bob turner.
If we think Leo Boivin can't skate ...
the knock against imlach was that he can win if he has his team. "But Imlach, more than any other North American coach, needs to have his team. If he has his team, he's tremendous. If he doesn't, it's mutiny time" (gbc - lineup assassination). my perception now is that, at this stage in the game (since we are in the playoffs), and since this team finished #2 in their division, imlach certainly has "won over the team" - if a mutiny were to happen, most likely it would have occurred by now. just my thoughts (could be wrong).
I don't buy it. If you have Brett Hull, Mike Bossy and Phil Esposito on the same line, they don't automatically get chemistry come playoff time. That is still a terrible mix ... as is Punch Imlach coaching the thristles.
imlach brings 4 cup rings to the table (compared to hitchcock's 1). he may be a nutcase, but he got the job done.
Sure ... but not with a team that looks like that.
since we have moved into the playoffs, i believe one of the strongest advantages for the thistles is the championship / playoff caliber of the team. the thistles are a team built for playoff success. this was my intention upon drafting dionne - surround him with players successful in the playoffs and internationally, and he's more likely to succeed.
Balderdash. Since you've already knocked Esposito and we're playing that game ... no linemate is going to get Dionne's head right, especially with a ***** like Imlach coaching him. A bad period and the criticism starts ... tell me I'm wrong.
the
thistles roster includes
19 stanley cup winners, 18 of which are multiple cup winners (dionne, martinec, alexandrov, and henderson being the four without a cup). in total, kenora sports a whopping
68 
. additionally, martinec adds 1 czech league title and 3 world championships. alexandrov adds 6 world championship titles.
Dude ... really?
So you're counting your 7th defenseman and 13th forward on this list? Why, exactly? While Dave Schultz is on the ice, which one of your forwards won't be? Can it be Elmer Lach? I vote Elmer Lach. And let's not rate Czech league titles and world championships alongside Stanley Cups. They ain't the same thing ... they ain't even close.
I love the sub-plots in this series ... Claude Lemieux / Kris Draper ... Larry Robinson / Guy Lafleur ... Emile Bouchard / Elmer Lach and Toe Blake ... it's great flavor. I also love the Blackhawks' chances ... we're built just the right way ... we're going to maul those chicken forwards, shut down that dainty powerplay and carry this thing in 6 games.
My favorite advantage is goaltending: Ken Dryden is one of the top 5 all time, and did nothing but win championships as the starting goaltender.
Hap Holmes averaged 25-30 games a season, and -- pulling stats from LOH -- had a 25-22 career playoff record. "Playoff" is loosely defined too, since talent was split among multiple leagues right here in North America during his career. 25 games a season + 3 or 4 playoff games ... getting fatigued at all Mr Holmes? Feeling a bit worn out at the end of that long season? If Holmes is your playoff starter (not sure I recommend it), he'll play more games in this series than he did winning all those Stanley Cups ... break the news gently.
Lorne Chabot is an even worse option: 13-17 playoff record for his career?
Everyone knows Dryden's numbers -- 6 Cups in 8 seasons is riddiculous, but my personal favorite stat is this: in Dryden's prime (76-79), his record in 1-goal playoff games: 17-4. On the biggest stages, in close games, he almost never blinks first.
As much as it's obvious that I have the worst offense in ATD history and that I'll never score a goal, I've got a couple of questions anyway.
Who's going to match up with Eric Lindros?
Who's going to have to catch the beating from Lemieux, Hunter and Linseman?
Which forwards -- aside from Draper's awesome Stanley Cup winning line -- are going to be able to back-check and help out when Larry Robinson, Randy Carlyle and Chris Pronger jump up into the play?
