ATD #10 - Final: Montreal Canadiens vs. San Francisco Spiders

Sturminator

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Feb 27, 2002
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San Francisco Spiders
co-GMs: Sturminator & Transplanted Caper
Coach: Cecil Hart​

Johnny Bucyk (A) - Joe Sakic (C) - Aleksander Maltsev
Frank Foyston - Denis Savard - Ed Litzenberger
Dean Prentice - Don McKenney - Ron Ellis
Bruce Stuart - Jack Adams - Dirk Graham
extras: Fred Stanfield, Vladimir Vikulov​

Bill Gadsby - Nicklas Lidstrom (A)
Hod Stuart - Cy Wentworth
Phil Russell - Bert Corbeau
extra: Rod Seiling​

Grant Fuhr
Dave Kerr​

Power play units:
PP1: Bucyk - Sakic - Foyston - Maltsev - Lidstrom
PP2: McKenney - Savard - Litzenberger - Stuart - Gadsby​

Penalty killing units:
PK1: Sakic - Graham - Lidstrom - Wentworth
PK2: Prentice - Ellis - Stuart - Gadsby

vs.

Montreal Canadiens
GM
: Hockey Outsider
Coach: Hap Day

Sid Smith - Bryan Trottier (C) - Pavel Bure
Esa Tikkanen - Doug Gilmour (A) - Bill Mosienko
George Hay - Dick Irvin, Sr. - B-A Gustafsson
Don Marcotte - Derek Sanderson - Ed Westfall (A)
extras: Don Lever - Tomas Sandstrom

Valeri Vasiliev - Vitali Davydov
Mark Howe - Zdeno Chara
Bill Hajt - Bobby Rowe
extra: Sandis Ozolinsh

Dominik Hasek
Gerry McNeil

Power play units:
PP1
: Sid Smith - Bryan Trottier - Pavel Bure - Mark Howe - Zdeno Chara
PP2: Dick Irvin - Doug Gilmour - Bill Mosienko - Valeri Vasiliev - Bobby Rowe

Penalty killing units:
PK1
: Marcotte - Sanderson - Mark Howe - Zdeno Chara
PK2: Westfall - Gilmour - Valeri Vasiliev - Vitali Davydov​
 
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Sturminator

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I guess I should get his party started, myself, then. Congrats to HO on again making the finals. I am looking forward to our first ever matchup against one another. Ok, I'll start in brief:

Montreal's advantages:

- goaltending: Dominik Hasek is arguably the greatest goaltender of all time. Not much needs to be said here. It's a big advantage for Les Canadiens.

- coaching: I've got Hap Day in the 2nd tier of coaches (after Bowman, Blake and Arbour) and Cecil Hart in the 3rd.

- checking line: Marcotte - Sanderson - Westfall is a stronger shutdown line than anything San Francisco can ice when trying to protect a lead.

San Francisco's advantages:

- blueline: the units are fairly close 4-6, but the Gadsby - Lidstrom pairing is again a decisive advantage, perhaps moreso because Montreal's 3 - 4 defensemen (Chara and Davydov) will be taking icetime away from Vasiliev - Howe with the Hab's top 2 units basically splitting minutes evenly. I have always been a proponent of giving your best players as much icetime as possible, and in this case Montreal's decision to split their top pairing defensemen likely makes matters worse rather than better.

- scoringline wings: that Bucyk, Maltsev, Foyston and Litzenberger are a better group than Smith, Bure, Tikkanen and Mosienko should be uncontroversial. It could well be argued that among these players, every man in a Spiders uniform is better than his Habs counterpart. Though opinions may vary on one or two particulars, I think it's clear that San Francisco has a considerable advantage, overall. Besides the gap in talent, Montreal lacks secondary playmakers on the wing, and will have difficulties creating plays if their centers are shut down.

- scoring depth: Montreal's 3rd line and San Francisco's 4th line are fairly similar in terms of scoring potential, but while the Habs' 4th line will (narrowly) outcheck the Spiders' 3rd line, Prentice - McKenney - Ellis will outscore Marcotte - Sanderson - Westfall by a wide margin. Russell - Corbeau should also generate a bit more offense than Hajt - Rowe, mostly because Bill Hajt is a nonfactor offensively.

- bad matchup for Chara: although I am probably one of Chara's biggest admirers among ATD GMs, San Francisco presents a potentially disasterous matchup problem for him. Chara will be asked to carry a greater than average workload for a 2nd pairing defenseman (going by HO's previous statements about icetime between his top pairings), and will be going against small, fast, creative scoringline forwards - the exact kind of player he should be kept away from. Frank Foyston will remain on the left side to attack Chara at his right D position and Aleksandr Maltsev will also be rotated onto the left wing (where he saw plenty of time during his career) whenever possible to take advantage of this matchup. Maltsev, in particular, with his outstanding speed and one-on-one puck skills, is an extremely unfavorable matchup for Chara. San Francisco's centers - Sakic and especially Savard - are also potentially troublesome. The fact that Montreal's scoringline right wings range from terrible defensively (Bure) to average (Mosienko) means that Chara also cannot expect a whole lot of backchecking support, other than from his centers.

The roster will be re-tooled on the fly to exploit the vs. Chara matchup based on who is having the most success, a strategic feat of which I'm sure Cecil Hart is capable. The fact that Maltsev, Litzenberger and Foyston can all play every forward position will make this easier, and even Bruce Stuart (who also plays every position) can be temporarily moved up to a scoringline position (on either side) if needs be to facilitate Hart's personnel rotation. The potential speed, passing and one-on-one puck skills presented by a Maltsev - Savard - Litzenberger line (particularly Maltsev - Savard attacking the right side of the defense) are pretty breathtaking.

In the final analysis, I think the Spiders have a clear advantage among the skaters, both at forward and defense, while the Habs have a large advantage in goal, a small one behind the bench, and will be better able to go into a defensive shell when the sitation calls for it. San Francisco will seek to control the puck and the play, while Montreal will look to slow down the game and counteattack with speed.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Congrats on making it to the finals, Sturm. Unfortunately I won't have time to post my thoughts on the series until Sunday (this is a bad time of year for accountants...). Hopefully we can discuss things then.
 

Sturminator

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I guess we'll wait until Sunday to really get things going, then. I'll add that like the even strength matchup, the special teams competition should also play out with San Francisco having the better of things offensively (on the power play), while Montreal ices the better penalty killers, starting with the goalie, of course.

It would be hard to assemble a better 4-man PK unit of forwards than Marcotte, Sanderson, Westfall and Gilmour, and the defensemen are stout, as well. Chara's potential weakness in transition is minimized on the PK where he can control the front of the net and use his reach to break up passes. And then, of course, there's Hasek. It is a ferocious penalty kill.

On the other side, San Francisco boasts an embarrassment of riches on the power play, with so much first unit talent available that we have the luxury of playing 4 forwards on the 1st unit and deploying a legitimate number one offensive defenseman Bill Gadsby as the primary quarterback of the 2nd unit without creating any offensive holes.

I am a little bit confused by Montreal's listing of Ozolinsh as one of the 2nd unit PP players. It is perhaps my own fault (having simply copied Montreal's roster from the semifinals thread), but as Ozo is listed as a reserve on the main roster, he will not be available for special teams duty unless another defenseman is benched. I'm guessing Bobby Rowe would be the normal replacement for Ozo barring substitution, but his insertion would make the difference in power play offensive ability (here Stuart - Gadsby vs. Vasiliev - Rowe) all the more clear.

/correction/ - I should add that Bill Mosienko is a serviceable secondary playmaker on Montreal's 2nd line. I said earlier that the Habs lack secondary playmakers on the wing, which is not entirely fair to Mosienko. The first line features two dedicated goal-scorers on the wing (Smith and Bure) who need a lot of passing service to be effective, and Tikkanen will never be mistaken for a playmaker, but Mosie can pick up some of the 2nd line playmaking slack if Gilmour is checked effectively.
 

shawnmullin

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Congrats to both men on a great achievement. Two great teams and I'm sorry I havn't been more involved here in the playoffs, but real life is what it is for small town radio when the economy sucks and you lose people...

In any event Hasek vs. Fuhr in the playoffs is a heck of a battle. Sakic vs. Trottier? Can I watch this for real?
 

raleh

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Oct 17, 2005
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I'm sure we're all aware, but something to keep in mind is that San Fran hasn't been extended yet while the Habs are coming off of two seven game overtime series that both went into OT in the final game.
 

Hockey Outsider

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This was written at the end of a 16 hr day. Sorry if this is less coherent than usual.

Goaltending. I agree with Sturm: Hasek is arguably the greatest goalie in hockey history. I take a middle-of-the-road stance on Fuhr (who is badly overrated by some and equally underrated by others) – I’ll concede that he was at his best during the playoffs, but I doubt anybody would dispute that Hasek was clearly the better goalie. The most decisive advantage in this series is at the most important position.

It’s also worth mentioning that Hasek (playing behind a patient, defensive team) is in his ideal environment; Fuhr will see fewer shots and receive less offensive support than he did while in his prime.

Coaching: I agree with Sturm’s assessment that Day is in the second tier of coaches, and that Hart is a step down from him. I think that this is an important advantage – as Sturm conceded, I have a better goalie and a superior defensive line. I’d argue that Day, as the more successful coach, will have a better chance of dictating the strategy & tempo of the game. This will allow him to slow the game down, thereby allowing one of my speedy forwards to capitalize on a turnover, giveaway, or powerplay opportunity, then quickly contain the Spiders. Day’s legacy was based on building teams around strong defensive play and succeeding in difficult circumstances (ie beating the 38-8-4 Habs in the ’45 playoffs; or coming back from a 3-0 series deficit in the ’42 playoffs) which will be an advantage in another tough series.

Blueline strategy: Sturm is playing his top two defensemen on one pairing while I’m splitting mine apart. Given that both teams have two strong scoring lines, my strategy is more appropriate for this series. Even if the Lidstrom/Gadsby duo contains the Trottier line for a game, it gives the dangerous Gilmour/Mosienko duo a chance to play against Wentworth/Stuart all game (not a bad pairing of course but it will eventually be worn down by the physicality, skill and speed of that line).

Sturm’s argument about Chara is similar to the one GBC used in the last round. I agree that Chara is, relatively speaking, more useful against power forwards than small skilled forwards but I think his hockey sense and positional play are being underrated – he actually uses his size/strength less than one would think and he’s good at anticipating plays and poke-checking. With that said, I will play Vasiliev slightly more than I did in previous rounds because his excellent speed and acceleration will allow him to keep up with the Spiders’ forwards. Like Chara, Vasiliev was an aggressive hitter, but he was a far more mobile skater.

Forwards: I disagree that the Spiders have a “clear advantage” in terms of their forwards. I won’t waste time discussing left wings, San Francisco clearly has the advantage there.

Our teams are roughly even at RW.
- Maltsev/Bure is an interesting comparison. Both are fantastically fast, skilled players. I think Bure is the better goal-scorer although Maltsev is the superior playmaker and is less of a defensive liability. Both played well in important games, though Maltsev was known to shy away from checks.
- Mosienko is simply better than Litzenberger (more years as a top-ten goal- and point-scorer, more all-star nods, generally known as a more skilled and faster player).
- Westfall and Graham are close; both are superb defensive players. Graham has the Selke, but the award wasn’t around during Westfall’s prime. They’re comparable offensively. I think Westfall’s strong playoff performances (’69, ’70 and ’75) give him the edge.
- I’d argue that Gustafsson and Ellis are close –Ellis comes out slightly ahead offensively taking era into account but Gustafsson, a routine Selke finalist and the Capitals’ #1 penalty killer, was the superior defensive forward. I realize Ellis is the far more famous player but I think little seperates him from Gustafsson in a 3rd line role.

This leads us to a highly interesting match-up at centre. Although they’re close, Trottier was a better playmaker, checker, and defensive player. Their playoff resumes are outstanding, and virtually equal. Sakic had a longer, steadier career, but that doesn’t make up for Trottier’s exceptional peak in a playoff series.

The real advantage is Gilmour/Savard. Although Savard was stunning, creative player, he simply doesn’t have a big advantage over Gilmour offensively (Savard averaged 101 pts over his best ten years vs 93 for Gilmour). I won’t go into detail over Gilmour’s superior checking ability, defensive play, Hart consideration and playoff performances – it adds up to a big advantage over Savard.

Both Irvin and McKenney are underrated; both were described as gentlemanly players and great skaters. Irvin was simply the more talented player (finishing 2nd in scoring to Bill Cook in his only full NHL season, and being a consistent top five goal- and point-scorer in the WCHL before the league collapsed). I’ll concede Adams is a much better scorer than Sanderson (though I will question how important this is if both fourth lines will likely get only 6-8 minutes of non shorthanded ice time per game).

Now a series more than just an analysis of players without considering their context. So, let's move onto the strategy.

Strategy. As much as I’d like to see the Trottier/Sakic matchup, I’d like the play the Gilmour line against Sakic’s line. This has four main benefits.
- First, Gilmour at his peak was nearly as good as Sakic, both in the regular season and playoffs, and was better defensively. Putting Gilmour on the ice against Sakic will force the Spiders’ best player to play more conservatively, and the Canadiens will only give up a small edge offensively.
- Second, this will give Trottier a much more favourable matchup against the relatively one-dimensional Savard; Trottier can score as much as Savard, and will do a much better job of shutting him down when necessary.
- Third, this will allow Mosienko, one of the fastest players of his era, to face off against Bucyk who was a poor skater (http://bruinslegends.blogspot.com/2007/01/johnny-bucyk.html), which will allow Mosienko to start odd-man rushes and take advantage of any opposition turnovers.
- Fourth, this will allow the highly aggressive Tikkanen to repeatedly check Maltsev, a player who withered against the Canadiens at the Summit Series because he couldn’t stand the level of physical play. “Maltsev's play was disappointing and the reason was clear. He seemed intimidated by the strong bodychecks delivered by the Canadians." “ (http://www.1972summitseries.com/maltsev.html). Tikkanen’s checking ability should greatly reduce the effectiveness of arguably the Spiders’ best goal-scorer.
- Overall, Mosienko will use his speed against the slow-footed Bucyk, Tikkanen will use his checking ability to contain Maltsev (supported by historical evidence) and Sakic's small advantage over Gilmour won't be enough to save his line.

As I mentioned above, the aforementioned matchup will allow me to play the Trottier line against Savard. I want Trottier to face off against Savard as they score at roughly the same rate but Trottier was clearly more complete; Trottier/Savard is a large advantage for the Habs. Litzenberger/Smith will line up against each other; they’re similar offensively though Smith was a better playoff performer and earned slightly more personal awards/accolades. Although Foyston is an underrated player and (given his versatility across positions) he was likely very good defensively, there were virtually no players who could contain Bure in his prime.

My Marcotte/Sanderson/Westfall line will see extensive duty on the powerplay and will be used when we’re holding onto a one-goal lead in the late second and third periods.

Special teams: I’ll agree with Sturm’s overall position that the Spiders have the better powerplay while the Canadiens have the better penalty kill. I want to emphasize that in addition to being excellent defensively, my penalty killers are serious threats to score shorthanded goals. Sanderson, Tikkanen, Howe and Ramsey all rank in the top 40 all-time in SHGs (as does Bure though I don’t intend to play him on my PK).

However I’ll add that I see a few weak spots on the Spiders’ powerplay. Sakic, even during his years as a Selke candidate, rarely played extensively on the penalty kill. NHLPA has data back to 1999 and only once did Sakic get more than 2:00 of SH ice time per game. Besides, forcing clearly the best forward on the Spiders to take on penalty killing duty will tire Sakic out needlessly, and will hurt the team’s offensive potential. Also, I was under the impression that Maltsev was a fairly average defensive player – please correct me if I’m wrong though.

Ozolinsh will remain a healthy scratch for this series and Rowe will take his place.

Home ice advantage. Which team has home ice advantage? It should be a point in favour (albeit a minor one) for either the Spiders of Canadiens.

Overall. The Canadiens have a large advantage in goal, behind the bench, and at centre. We're close down the right wing, and in terms of special teams. I think these factors, combined with a useful and practical strategy to split up my top defensemen and play the Gilmour line against Sakic, will result in a victory in (another) close series.

Due to deadlines I probably won’t be able to add comments until Tuesday though hopefully the discussion continues.
 
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Nalyd Psycho

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Just to say, I'm leaving it in open hands as to when to have the vote. Whenever people are ready, I'll tabulate and write. But, since only a limitted amount are left voting, I'm not motivated to be a task master.
 

Sturminator

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First, it's unclear to me at this point which team has home-ice advantage, as we're both 1 seeds and the President's trophy voting was not announced. Even with home-ice advantage, line matching has never been as easy as many on this forum make it out to be. If Montreal has home-ice, we can probably expect HO's line-matching scheme to produce the desired matchup about half the time. If San Francisco has home-ice, probably something more like 40%. Attacking Chara in transition with either Foyston or Maltsev (plus fast, shifty centers) is considerably easier because the Spiders don't have to line match to pull it off, having the material at hand on both scoringlines. How often the desired strategical matchups occur is clearly in San Francisco's favor here.

I take a middle-of-the-road stance on Fuhr (who is badly overrated by some and equally underrated by others) – I’ll concede that he was at his best during the playoffs, but I doubt anybody would dispute that Hasek was clearly the better goalie. The most decisive advantage in this series is at the most important position. It’s also worth mentioning that Hasek (playing behind a patient, defensive team) is in his ideal environment; Fuhr will see fewer shots and receive less offensive support than he did while in his prime.

It should be noted here that not only did Grant Fuhr play his best in the playoffs, he played his best in the most crucial playoff games. Fuhr's career record in game 7's is 5-2, with one of those losses coming from the infamous Steve Smith kick in. The last game 7 victory Fuhr put up was not in Edmonton, but St. Louis, where he shutout Phoenix 1-0 in 1999 to pull the Blues through. If this series goes to game 7 (which I fully expect), the margin between the goalies narrows considerably.

Blueline strategy: Sturm is playing his top two defensemen on one pairing while I’m splitting mine apart. Given that both teams have two strong scoring lines, my strategy is more appropriate for this series.

You're painting an awfully rosy picture of the blueline situation here. Lidstrom - Gadsby is so much better than any pairing Montreal can ice (nevermind the top pairing that actually is being iced), that San Francisco can thoroughly control the play while they are on the ice, which will be about 30 minutes a game. All of Hap Day's strategizing to slow the play down amounts to nothing when the personnel he has out there are this badly overmatched. The biggest matchup inequality in this series is not Hasek vs. Fuhr, but Lidstrom - Gadsby vs. Vasiliev - Davydov (or Howe - Chara, the Habs' pairings being fairly interchangeable). This is also clearly a more important matchup than goalie vs. goalie, as the defensive pairings dictate the play both ways.

Even if the Lidstrom/Gadsby duo contains the Trottier line for a game, it gives the dangerous Gilmour/Mosienko duo a chance to play against Wentworth/Stuart all game (not a bad pairing of course but it will eventually be worn down by the physicality, skill and speed of that line).

Considering that Hod Stuart is by far bigger and stronger than any of Montreal's forwards, the argument that he'll get worn down physically is weak. Wentworth was known as a clean, non-physical player, but he remained remarkably healthy throughout a long career and thrived as a defensive-defenseman in an exceptionally rough era. I see little reason to believe the likes of Doug Gilmour and Esa Tikkanen will wear him down physically. Those two aren't exactly Nels Stewart and Charlie Conacher, and Wentworth did fine playing in their era. As far as speed is concerned, Stuart and Wentworth are both excellent skaters. I really don't understand how you see a speed or physicality advantage here. None is present. As far as skill goes, Tikkanen and Mosienko are quite mediocre ATD scoringliners from a skill perspective (more on that later), and Doug Gilmour isn't so good that he can dominate a pairing like Stuart - Wentworth all by himself.

Maltsev/Bure is an interesting comparison. Both are fantastically fast, skilled players. I think Bure is the better goal-scorer although Maltsev is the superior playmaker and is less of a defensive liability. Both played well in important games, though Maltsev was known to shy away from checks.

You are grossly understating the defensive difference here. Maltsev is essentially average (without information for or against), while Bure's teams essentially played shorthanded whenever he was on the ice, as he often refused to cross his own blueline. Offensively the two are close (Bure has the superior peak, but has a narrower skillset and a prime about half as long), but Maltsev was nothing like the liability of a Bure on the ice. He wouldn't have survived in the Soviet system if he had been. Overall, Maltsev is the better player. He will provide similar offense to Bure without putting his team at a huge and constant defensive disadvantage. As far as the criticism of Maltsev in 1972, I am the guy who first brought that up in this forum (in ATD 9), and I also pointed out that Maltsev appears to have made the necessary adjustments, as he did much better later in his career against physical teams like Canada and Sweden (the Salming years). As far as Maltsev's effectiveness in 72 goes, he tied for 9th in series scoring with, among others, Boris Mikhailov. The idea that Maltsev was somehow checked into submission is nonsense.

Mosienko is simply better than Litzenberger (more years as a top-ten goal- and point-scorer, more all-star nods, generally known as a more skilled and faster player).

You have got to be kidding me. This is an inversion of reality. Bill Mosienko is a perfect example of a player whose paper resume benefitted hugely from the war. Mosienko's all-star appearances are 44-45 and 45-46, one directly a war year and one a season in which the league was still seriously watered-down, with many veterans still not back to full speed (the league wouldn't really get back to full speed until 47-48). Ed Litzenberger has only a single all-star appearance, but he played in the era of Howe, Geoffrion and Bathgate, for god's sakes. Litz's one second team all-star nod means he beat out two of those three players in 56-57, something Bill Mosienko could never have approached. So much for comparing all-star nods.

As far as scoring goes, after the NHL's war hangover wore off (end of the 46-47 season), Bill Mosienko has exactly one season in which he finished top-10 in points, 51-52, which was his renaissance (he was also 2nd in goals). He also finished 10th in goals in 50-51 and 7th in assists in 48-49. Mosienko's scoring feats, looked at only on paper, are the very definition of wartime inflation.

- his first two seasons among the league leaders are 43-44 and 44-45. Okay.

- then the Bentley's come back and Mosienko plays on a line with Doug and Max for the next two years in a still war-depleted league. This takes us through the end of the 46-47 season. Bill Mosienko has been a top-10 scorer 4 years in a row.

- then Mosienko misses a third of the 47-48 season, Max Bentley is traded to Toronto, and the league returns to truly full strength - the true beginning of the O6era is at hand. Suddenly Mosienko's scoring dries up considerably. For the next 4 seasons (47-48 to 50-51), he is no longer a top-10 point scorer. He's still a good player, but where is the success of the war years? Gone, because it was an illusion to begin with. He has a single great season in 51-52, and then falls back down to earth again with three more mediocre seasons before retiring. The contrast between Mosienko's production up to 46-47 and his production after that point is stark. Here is a player who truly built his resume in the war years.

- now compare him to Litzenberger, who competed in arguably the stiffest competitive era in NHL history, and certainly the stiffest for right wings. Even irrespective of era, Litzenberger's peak is easily higher than Mosienko's. Litz's three best consecutive years saw him finish 4th, 3rd, 4th in goals and 5th, 6th, 5th in points. Mosienko's three best consecutive years yielded 6th, 5th, 10th and 8th, 5th, 5th.

In Litzenberger's three best scoring years, here are the rest of the top-10 players that he outscored:

Maurice Richard, Don McKenney, Dickie Moore, Henri Richard, Norm Ullman - (56-57)
Fleming Mackell, Alex Delvecchio, Jean Beliveau, Don McKenney - (57-58)
Bernie Geoffrion, Red Sullivan, Andy Hebenton, Don McKenney, Tod Sloan - (58-59)

Here is the same for Bill Mosienko:

Clint Smith (tied), Joe Carveth (tied), Ted Kennedy (tied), Ab Demarco (tied), Syd Howe - (44-45)
Maurice Richard (tied), Ab Demarco, Elmer Lach, Alex Kaleta, Billy Taylor, Pete Horeck - (45-46)
Sid Abel (tied), Ted Kennedy, Milt Schmidt, Johnny Pierson - (51-52)

Only in 51-52 is it a particularly impressive field that Mosienko outscored. Litzenberger's competition was considerably stronger, and this analysis actually gives a pretty good indication of the scoring competition Don McKenney faced, as well (which was vastly stiffer than Dick Irvin's). Ed Litzenberger also never had the benefit of linemates of anywhere near the quality of the Bentleys during his prime years. He was easily the better player.

Westfall and Graham are close; both are superb defensive players. Graham has the Selke, but the award wasn’t around during Westfall’s prime. They’re comparable offensively. I think Westfall’s strong playoff performances (’69, ’70 and ’75) give him the edge.

This I agree with.

I’d argue that Gustafsson and Ellis are close –Ellis comes out slightly ahead offensively taking era into account but Gustafsson, a routine Selke finalist and the Capitals’ #1 penalty killer, was the superior defensive forward. I realize Ellis is the far more famous player but I think little seperates him from Gustafsson in a 3rd line role.

Disagree. The difference between the two men offensively is much bigger than you make it out to be. The raw numbers look somewhat close (though Ellis's are better at any rate), but when era is taken into account they are worlds apart. Ellis was a top-10 goal scorer in 69-70 (putting up more goals than Orr, Lemaire, Keon, Howe, Ratelle and Bucyk, among others) and was a consistent scoringline quality goal-scoring threat throughout his career, placing in the top-15 in goals on three other occasions (64-65 - 12th), (66-67 - 13th) and (67-68 - 12th). Only an extremely superficial look at Gustafsson and Ellis' respective stats make them look anywhere close offensively. Defensively, I agree they are close, though Ellis played for quite a lot longer and in much tenser situations, winning a Cup in Toronto and starting all 8 games of the 72 Summit Series, among other things. In terms of overall quality, no Gustfsson and Ellis are not particularly close.

Trottier and Sakic are quite close. I think an argument can be made both ways, and I'm not going to waste a lot of time arguing this point.

The real advantage is Gilmour/Savard. Although Savard was stunning, creative player, he simply doesn’t have a big advantage over Gilmour offensively (Savard averaged 101 pts over his best ten years vs 93 for Gilmour). I won’t go into detail over Gilmour’s superior checking ability, defensive play, Hart consideration and playoff performances – it adds up to a big advantage over Savard.

While I'll concede that Gilmour is the superior player, overall, your claim that Gilmour has a clear advantage in a couple of areas (playoff performances and Hart consideration) is seriously overblown. Throwing out seasons in which the players received only a single vote (each had one, at any rate), Gilmour's Hart finishes are 2nd (92-93) and 4th (93-94). Savard's are 3rd (82-83), 5th (87-88) and 11th (81-82). I'm guessing Savard's Hart results come as a surprise to you.

As far as their playoffs go, Gilmour's peak was higher, but it wasn't particularly long. Dougie's best playoffs were 93 and 94 in Toronto, in which he was dominant. Savard has one comparable season, 85 in Chicago. Other than that, the rest of their playoff careers are quite similar, with a number of seasons at or a bit above a point-per-game, but little true dominance. Gilmour is the better playoff performer, but not by a huge margin, and Savard's overall scoring numbers (career-wise) are actually a bit better.

More to come later.
 
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Sturminator

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I feel the need to address the claim that Johnny Bucyk was a poor skater. Simply put, he was not. HO references a second-hand claim made by Joe Pelletier here in which Pelletier describes Bucyk's skating as "horrible", which is a gross overstatement. Joe Pelletier's blog is useful, but occasionally wrong, such as the claim (which I once referenced) that Frank Boucher played at something like 145 pounds, which BM pointed out was false. At any rate, he's not old enough to have seen Bucyk with his own eyes, and I am. Having watched the latter part of Bucyk's career quite intently (the Bruins were New York's biggest rivals in the early 70's) I can say in no uncertain terms that Johnny Bucyk was not a poor skater. He wasn't a particularly fast one, either, but the claim that Bucyk had skating problems is simply false.

The best modern comparison I can think of is Jonathan Cheechoo, who, like Bucyk, got started skating (and playing hockey) somewhat late in life, and who had a reputation as a poor skater very early in his career. Like Bucyk, however, Cheechoo has worked on his skating and improved it to the point where it is not now a weakness. That's all there is to it. Johnny Bucyk was not a poor skater, and in fact he could show a surprising burst of speed when he needed it. Take a look at his Legends video here, if my word doesn't suffice. There's plenty of footage of him skating around.
 

chaosrevolver

Snubbed Again
Nov 24, 2006
16,876
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Ontario
Id like to wish good luck to both teams. I've dropped the ball on voting...ill admit that...ive been really busy of late with exam team being right now but ill make sure to vote for the final.
 

BrutalWolf

Registered User
Mar 26, 2007
92
0
This leads us to a highly interesting match-up at centre. Although they’re close, Trottier was a better playmaker, checker, and defensive player. Their playoff resumes are outstanding, and virtually equal. Sakic had a longer, steadier career, but that doesn’t make up for Trottier’s exceptional peak in a playoff series.

Sakic's peak in the playoffs is superior to Trottier. Sakic's peak in a series is also superior. Sakic played amazingly well against the Devils in 2001 with a shoulder injury that would have otherwise sidelined him for at least a month. He dominated Chicago in 1996. He won two games by himself in 2004 against San Jose.

You also underrate Sakic's defensive ability. Sure, he focused on scoring, but when the Avs were killing a 5 on 3, Sakic would be out there often, even when the Avs had Yelle on the team. Trottier is great, no doubt, but Sakic, in the playoffs, is a tier above both Trottier and Gilmour. I'd rather have Gilmour's peak than Trottier's peak in the playoffs. Trottier ended his career averaging less than a point per game in the playoffs. Yeah, he developed into a solid checking line player for Pittsburgh and wasn't counted on to score points, but Sakic had 10 points in 10 games in last year's playoffs when he still wasn't 100%.


Admittedly I'm a big fan of Sakic, but I'm a big fan of Trottier and Gilmour as well. I think you have two fantastic centers, and if they're at the top of their game, they're elite. Sakic is simply beyond them.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
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Mosienko/Litzenberger. I think you’re overstating the difference in the quality of competition that Mosienko and Litzenberger faced. During Mosienko’s six prime non all-star years (1947-1952) the all-stars were: Rocket Richard (x6), Gordie Howe (x4), Bauer (x1) and, during a year when Mosienko was injured, an admittedly weak Bud Poile. That’s incredibly tough competition and also left Mosienko little chance of earning an all-star berth.

By your own listing, they both faced the same number of HOF scorers as competition during their three best years. From your post, Litzenberger faced M Richard, H Richard, Moore, Ullman, Delvechhio, Beliveau & Geoffrion while Mosienko faced Kennedy x2, Schmidt, S Howe, M. Richard, Lach & Abel. I agree Litzenberger faced slightly tougher competition overall but the difference is small.

Litzenberger had a great three-year peak but, aside from 1953-55, was just a solid secondary player. I sympathize with him because I realize his struggles were due to family issues, but I can’t give him extra credit for that. Mosienko was a top ten scorer in at least one scoring category in seven different seasons. Given that their peaks are close, this gives Mosienko the edge. Even if we completely ignore the two war years, during his career Mosienko was 6th in goals and 10th in points (just seven points out of 7th place, on par with D Bentley, Kennedy and Schmidt).

Finally, a comparison of Litzenberger & Mosienko's best three years yields in 3/4/4 vs 2/5/6 in goals, 6/NR/NR vs 2/7/9 in assists, and 5/5/6 vs 5/5/7 in points. They're virtually even in goals and points but Mosienko was the more balanced offensive player. I realize your original comparison restricted it to their best three years, though I don't know why that was necessary. Of course, if I extended this to best five or seven seasons, Mosienko's advantage would be even more clear (5/5/6/NR/NR vs 5/5/7/8/9).

Irvin's competition. Sadly Irvin only played in one full post-consolidation season (1927): he led the league in assists and was second only to Bill Cook in scoring, meaning he beat out Morenz, Boucher, Dye, Denenny and several other HOFers. That was at age 34. In 1926, the year immediately before consolidation, in the WHL, he was 2nd in scoring (again to Cook) and beat out Boucher (again), Keats and Mackay, among others. Irvin faced the best competition that was available to him at the time.

Defense pairs. I think that's the tradeoff with our strategies. Although I'm not looking forward to facing Lidstrom/Gadsby for 30 minuters per night, this means I'll be able to play Howe and Chara against Stuart and Wentworth for significant portions of the game. Although Lidstrom/Gadsby may be able to dictate play against Vasiliev/Davydov, Howe/Chara would have a similar advantage over Stuart/Wentworth. The difference is the Canadiens will have Hasek, who has proven he can weather the storm even when he faces a more imposing blueline. Again, I think that splitting up the top defensemen is more appropriate given that, first, it maximizes the chances of stopping the opponents two impressive scoring lines and, second, it will spread the ice time around which reduces the chance of fatigue and injury during a long and strenuous playoff series.

Gilmour and the Hart. His Hart record was exceptionally strong for a non-HOF forward.
- In 1993 he finished 2nd only to Mario Lemieux’s 60 game, 160 point season. He stood out from every other player -- Gilmour had as many votes as the 3rd, 4th and 5th place players combined
- In 1994, he was 4th behind Fedorov, Hasek and Vanbiesbrouck
- In 1987, he was 5th behind Gretzky, Bourque, Liut and Lemieux (one of the toughest top four ever?) – and he was actually within a single vote of Lemieux. I think you excluded this year in your post.

Savard had one great year (1983 when he finished behind Gretzky and Peeters). He was also a very distant 5th in 1988 (getting votes from just 11 of 62 writers). That’s it. (It looks like you may have been counting 1982 when Savard got votes from 3 of a possible 63 writers).

Stuart. It's worth mentioning that although Doug Gilmour and Esa Tikkanen weren't especially large, they played bigger than their size due to their aggressiveness. Despite their tenacity, they consistently remained healthy.

Gilmour in the playoffs. I hate to recycle posts but I think it's valid here.

- in 1986, Gilmour led the playoffs in scoring despite being eliminated in the third round. He was top five in both goals and assists
- in 1988, he scored 17 pts in 10 games, a full 7 pts ahead of the next best player on the Blues (Cavallini).
- in 1989, he's 5th in goals and points as the Flames win the Cup (though MacInnis was the real catalyst that year).
- in 1993, Gilmour scores a ridiculous 35 points in 21 games; it's one of the greatest modern-era examples of a player leading his team to victory. His next closest teammate (Clark) has just 20 points. Gilmour leads the playoffs in assists and is second only Gretzky in scoring; he's once again 5th in PO goals.
- in 1994, Gilmour again leads his team in scoring by a huge margin (28 pts in 18 games vs 18 pts for Ellett). Gilmour's 2nd in assists and 4th in points.
- At age 38, Gilmour still led the Habs in PO scoring in 2002 (I'll mention he also led the Leafs in scoring a few springs in the 1990s, but that's not a major accomplishment). Simply put, Gilmour was one of the greatest & most consistent playoff scorers in the modern era.

Trottier in the playoffs. He's won a lot of games singlehandedly as well (a 5 pt game and later a hat trick against Toronto in one series, 4 pts against the Bruins in the decisive game 6 of the '83 semi-finals, etc). I don't deny he slowed down with age (and have conceded Sakic was more consistent) but he put a lot of wear & tear on himself playing such an aggressive style over so many playoff games at such a young age. I would argue him, Sakic and Gilmour are all roughly even PO performers at their peaks.

Maltsev/PK. If Maltsev was only average defensively, why is he on your penalty killing unit? This further shows the advantage my team has on the PK – Trottier is good enough to be any ATD team’s top four PKers, but I choose to allow him to focus on his scoring and his even-strength two-way responsibilities. Even if Sakic was ahead of Trottier, the latter should have a stronger series on the basis that he will not be spending 2-3 min per game exhausting himself on the PK.

Based on watching the Summit Series, I think it's safe to say that Maltsev got worse as the series went on. He looked great in game 1 but towards the end of the series, he really struggled to find open ice. During the four games in the USSR, he was held off the scoresheet entirely at ES and had a couple of assists on the PP. Now he did look great playing with Yakushev (and I'll agree Bucyk is roughly comparable in style) -- but it does cause me to question how effective he'll be towards the end of a long, physical playoff run.

Fuhr/Hasek. I don’t dispute that this series will go to seven games, but picking out one game samples isn’t very informative. I can point out that Fuhr was bailed out by Gretzky in 1984 (getting a win for playing just 30 minutes in a 7-4 game where Gretzky scored 3 pts), or gave up 5 goals on 29 shots in 1989 to Gretzky’s Kings. I don’t deny that Fuhr is a clutch player and in many ways transcends statistics… but he’s not unbeatable in game sevens and he, like all goalies, has had good & bad performances in critical games.

The website http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/ recently ran an article showing that Hasek was the best playoff goalie at preserving a lead after 2 periods (16-2, 97.0 sv%) and was virtually unbeatable in overtime (1.89 GAA, 93.9 sv%). He ranks higher than Brodeur and Roy in both categories (1994-2008). This is crucial for two reasons. First, as we’ve discussed before, my team’s strategy will likely involve playing slowly and conservatively when we have a lead in the third. These numbers confirm my intuition – Hasek was virtually unbeatable when hanging onto a lead late in a close game. Chara and Vasiliev are outstanding defensive players and Westfall/Marcotte/Sanderson is the best defensive line in the draft – this will make a Spiders comeback very difficult. Additionally, I fully expect several games to go into overtime – having a virtually unbeatable overtime goalie is clearly an asset, though I concede Fuhr was generally a great OT performer as well.
 
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Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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Bill Mosienko:

This Bill Mosienko business is getting tiresome. I feel like you're trying to tell me black is white here, HO. I've probably done Mosienko's status a favor by even discussing the subject, rather than dismissing it out of hand. I took a look at Mosienko as the draft wore on because I was aware he was still out there, but passed on the idea of drafting him for a simple reason: he has only one notable season as a scorer, which was in 51-52.

Mosienko's first three years 43-46 as a top-10 scorer were wracked up in a badly war-depleted NHL, and the players he beat out for those scoring laurels are a sorry lot. 46-47 was a better year for the league, and Mosienko snuck into the top 10 in 9th place playing on a line with the Bentleys in a season in which Max won the Art Ross and Doug was 6th in points. Put Mosienko's performance that year on any of Litzenberger's Hawks teams against O6 competition and he doesn't even sniff a top-10 finish in any category.

Mosienko's lone season as a dominant scorer was 51-52, in which he placed 2nd in goals and 7th in points against strong competition on a weak Hawks team. That's it. One season in which he compares to Litzenberger's three year prime, which was ended by a car crash, not family problems (unless you count the death of his wife as a family problem). The rest of Mosie's scoring resume is simply not creditable as top-10 worthy by modern standards. As I said in the beginning, Bill Mosienko is a perfect example of a player who feasted on a war-weakened league and then couldn't back up that performance when the NHL returned to full strength. He is a below-average scoring 2nd liner who adds nothing in terms of size, physicality or defense. Which brings me to my second point...

Habs' 2nd line:

HO states that he will take advantage of a favorable defensive matchup on the second units and talks about how he will take it to Stuart - Wentworth, but with what forwards does he propose to do this? Doug Gilmour is a strong second line center, but at what point did Montreal's 2nd line wingers become an offensive threat? Bill Mosienko is a paper tiger, and Esa Tikkanen a glorified 3rd liner. HO has apparently abandoned the argument that the 2nd unit enjoys any kind of size or speed advantage, as that is clearly not the case. Stuart - Wentworth can't really be beaten with speed (as both were excellent skaters) and matches up very well against a Habs 2nd unit that lacks a physical presence in front of the net. Gilmour was tough, but he gives up a huge amount of size and strength to Hod Stuart, and at any rate, if your primary playmaker is also thrust into the role of crease crasher, the line has problems.

Montreal has the better defensive array on the 2nd units, but is vastly inferior from a scoring perspective. Gilmour is a shade better than Savard, but Mosienko cannot match Litzenberger's skill, and Foyston vs. Tikkanen is arguably the single most lopsided matchup in this series (though the 1st defensive units are miles apart, as well). The Habs will need the better defenseman just to break even because the Spiders forwards are simply better. The extreme matchup advantage of Zdeno Chara (with poor checking help from his RW) vs. Foyston/Maltsev and Savard plays further into San Francsisco's hands. Seriously, can you imagine a worse player for Zdeno Chara to defend than Denis Savard?

Mark Howe vs. Hod Stuart on the 2nd unit is the only profound personnel advantage for Montreal, and even that is several orders of magnitude smaller than the Gadsby vs. Davydov mismatch on the 1st pairing. Chara vs. Wentworth is basically a wash. Chara has more skill, but faces a disadvantageous matchup and has a checkered playoff resume while Wentworth has a positive postseason record, and the Stanley Cup heroics of 1935. Trying to sell this minor advantage as somehow decisive is a thin reed.

Penalty Kill:

Ron Ellis will take Aleksandr Maltsev's place on the 2nd unit penalty kill. There, problem solved: an average defensive player substituted for a very good one. Neither Prentice nor Ellis was a natural center (which creates something of a faceoff problem), but I will just have to live with that. The Spiders' new 2nd PK unit of Prentice - Ellis - Stuart - Gadsby is quite strong, with Gadsby easily the best player on either team's second unit.

I should also point out that Vasiliev - Rowe is a problematic point tandem for the Habs. Both are left shots, and even irrespective of that problem, neither one can be considered much of a point shooter at an ATD level. Vasiliev was an excellent puckmover, but a mediocre shooter who took a backseat to Lutchenko on the Soviet powerplay. Rowe is simply not a high-end ATD talent for any kind of powerplay role, and yet here he is thrust into the role of primary point shooter on Montreal's 2nd unit. I see little reason for any penalty killer at this level to respect the shot from the point on such a unit.

Dick Irvin:

That you would compare Dick Irvin's overall game to Don McKenney's is rather bizarre. McKenney's oeuvre is hopefully well-known after my posts on the subject. He was a solid defensive player, and one of the very best offensive producers of any 3rd liner in this draft, backing it up with excellent playoff performances.

Dick Irvin's regular season scoring feats are, like McKenney's, underrated on this forum. In addition to the two seasons he dueled with Cook for the league lead, his 16-17 PCHA season (in which he finished 4th in goals) also stands out as a strong campaign. He was certainly a skilled hockey player. We know nothing about his defensive prowess, and so I can only consider him inferior to McKenney in that regard. Irvin's biggest wart is his playoff record, which is close to nonexistent. He never played in the Stanley Cup finals in his career, and has a short and uninteresting career over the playoff games in which he did compete. In terms of overall skill, I'd say Irvin and McKenney are quite close, but the Spiders' 3rd line center wins easily in defensive ability and clutch play.

Doug Gilmour:

You're right that I did miss Gilmour's 86-87 5th place Hart finish, although I find it interesting that you feel the need to count this campaign by Gilmour, in which he finished (0-9-3) in voting, but discount Savard's 87-88 Hart totals, in which he finished (0-5-6). By my count, that's 12 votes to 11.

It's also curious why you would have us throw out Savard's (0-1-2) Hart finish in 81-82, good for 11th place, considering that you praised the same method of counting awards voting (that is, throwing out finishes with less than one 1st place vote or two lower votes) here in the Norris trophy thread. At any rate, Gilmour has two seasons in which he received substantial Hart votes to Savard's one. Both have a season in which they received lukewarm support (the 11 and 12 vote campaigns), and Savard has a season in which he received some outside support in a top-heavy Hart vote that went to Gretzky. The difference is there, but it's not huge.

Joe Sakic:

You mention the potential advantage of Hasek's OT record, and fail to point out that Joe Sakic is skating on the other side of the ice. I'll take my chances with that one.

Comparing Doug Gilmour's playoff performances to Sakic's is ridiculous and I won't dignify it with an argument, but I'll at least address the Trottier comparison. As you have acknowledged (and as I know well, being an Isles fan), Bryan Trottier was actually considered a playoff choker until 1980, failing to raise his level of play in New York's first four playoff runs, the last two of which ended in bitter upset defeats. It was an ugly start to his career, and Trotts was roasted for it in New York.

Then we have the dynasty years. Trottier was outstanding in 79-80 and fully earned his Conn-Smythe, but was never again called upon to lead the team offensively with Mike Bossy taking over as the go-to guy for the next two seasons and eventually Bourne being the hero in 84 (in what was a very mediocre playoffs for Trotts). Trottier's playoff peak is really 80-83, in which he has a well-deserved Conn-Smythe (and really carried the team) and played at a very high level on two other occasions. After the dynasty years (and really 84 was a poor postseason for Trotts, who was outscored by the Sutters, among others, on his own team), he fell off the table, and put in a lot of so-so postseasons for the rest of his career.

Compare that to Joe Sakic, who twice carried his team offensively to the Cup (lest we forget how young and unspectacular Forsberg was in 96, or the fact that he played only the first 11 games in 01), and has performed exceptionally well in the postseason throughout his long career, including last season where he led the team in scoring at the age of 38, adding yet another OT goal to his record. Sakic's unbelievable postseason consistency puts him on a different level than Trottier. Simply put, when it gets down to gut-check time in the playoffs, Bryan Trottier might deliver for you; Joe Sakic, you can count on.

Strategy:

HO has said that he wants to slow the game down to counteract San Francisco's obvious advantage in terms of offensive firepower. The question is: how? Generally, teams need to do one of two things to slow down the play: control the puck or clog the neutral zone/blueline area, playing the trap, in essence.

Can Montreal win the lion's share of the puck control? Clearly not. On the top units, where most of this matchup will be played out, the Habs can look to Trottier, Gilmour, Howe and Vasiliev as high-end puck control guys. None of Montreal's wings are geared for such a strategy, being either dedicated goal-scorers (Smith and Bure) or a glorified checker with very limited hand skills (Tikkanen). Bill Mosienko is really the only secondary puck-carrier Montreal can look to. The Spiders puck control is vastly superior, with every single member of the top-6 forward core boasting excellent puck skills, and three of the top-4 defensemen, as well (all but Wentworth, who wasn't so bad, himself). San Francisco has a decisive advantage in terms of puck control and skill, generally, which Montreal cannot offset by physicality or speed, as the Spiders are superior in both categories.

So the Habs' other option is to slow the play down by means of some sort of defensive scheme. Given that there was nothing special announced about schemes during the regular season, we can assume that Montreal plays a vanilla Hap Day defense, which is fairly conservative, but hardly a trap. Any new scheme would be the result of last-minute planning, and quite unlikely to work given how little time the team will have had to prepare.

So can Montreal keep the Spiders from gaining the zone playing a standard Hap Day defense? On the 1st unit, the answer is a resounding: no. The Habs 1st line features not only the legendarily indifferent Pavel Bure, but also Sid Smith, who wasn't known as a defensive ace, himself (more on that to follow). Bryan Trottier is certainly a reliable player, but he can't do it all himself, and Vasiliev - Davydov are not a good enough pairing to come even close to consistently containing a unit with the skill of Bucyk - Sakic - Maltsev - Lidstrom - Gadsby. San Francisco's advantage on the 1st unit (and really the entire time the top pairing is out there) is quite pronounced, and there is almost no conceivable way for Montreal to keep them from consistently gaining the zone with speed.

The 2nd unit is the only place where Montreal can even hope to slow the game down, and they should have some success here, relying on Howe, Chara, Gilmour and Tikkanen to clog the center of the ice. Fortunately, even here San Francisco has the puckhandling and speed to break through a tight defensive scheme with some frequency. It starts with Denis Savard, who is almost the perfect center to deploy against a clogging defensive scheme due to his speed and one-on-one skills (individual stickhandling being the best way to break a trap), but it also goes out to Foyston and Stuart, who were both also known for great speed and puck skills. Even on the 2nd unit, where the matchups are more favorable to Montreal, keeping the Spiders out of the zone with speed will be a challenge. You don't just throw Zdeno Chara out against Denis Savard and Frank Foyston (among the worst possible matchups in the ATD) and say 'he will stop them'. This Spiders team is almost perfectly geared to break through sticky defensive schemes, starting at the top with Cecil Hart, whose specialty was coaching teams built around speed and puck control.

Montreal's obvious personnel disadvantage among the skaters cannot be recovered strategically. HO claims that Montreal can do wonders to protect a lead, but fails to tell us how they will ever get a lead, to begin with. The relative offensive weakness of Mosienko and Tikkanen makes even the Habs' narrow advantage on the 2nd unit of questionable value in terms of goal-scoring (the unit being geared mainly for a defensive advantage), and are we to simply ignore the fact that fully 3/5ths (Smith, Bure and Davydov) of Montreal's 1st unit is way out of it's league defensively? What of the fact that San Francisco has the better depth scorers on both the 3rd and 4th lines (HO has conceded the point on the 4th lines and we've gotten no answer to the lopsided Gustafsson vs. Ellis offensive comparison - McKenney vs. Irvin should be clear enough by now)?

Montreal's offense (and it's blueline) is so far behind San Francisco's that it's unclear exactly when they'll ever have a lead to protect.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
9,894
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West Egg, New York
As promised, more on Sid Smith's defensive game. From Hockey's Glory Days (scroll down to pg 152 for the text on Smith):

Smith had the reputation of being a one-way player early in his career, but his defensive skills developed over the years.

Sounds a lot like Yvon Cournoyer to me. And in fact, if you look at Smith's career, you'll see that it took him four years to break into the league as an NHL regular, much like Cournoyer, and for the same reason: he was a terrible defensive player. In his prime, Smith was probably no worse than below-average defensively, but it's worth noting that two of his Cups (and one of his big postseason goalscoring years) were won in seasons that he couldn't crack the roster as an NHL regular. Overall, I think Sid Smith should be considered below average defensively.

Which brings us back to the question of personnel: how is the Trottier line supposed to contain either of San Francisco's scoring lines defensively when the wings range from below average (Smith) to outright pathetic (Bure) in their own end? HO wants to play this line against the Savard line whenever possible, but if that's the case, the Savard line will benefit from a large amount of "Ole!" checking on Montreal's wings, especially on the critical right side (Chara's side) where Pavel Bure will go into figure skating routines at center ice as soon as the puck crosses the redline.

What personnel arrangement should Montreal use here? Tikkanen - Gilmour - Mosienko vs. the Sakic line at least has the advantage of two good defensive players (Gilmour and Tikk) against the Spiders' top unit, but this line has virtually no hope of producing consistent offense against Lidstrom - Gadsby, and isn't backed up by a defensive pairing good enough to call this a shutdown unit. If you're going to throw the Gilmour line to the dogs as a glorified checkingline, why not just give the icetime to Sanderson's line?

If the Trottier line is really used mostly against the Savard line, what becomes of Montreal's alleged defensive advantage on the 2nd unit? Yeah, Trottier is strong and the comparison of #3 defensemen (Howe vs. Stuart) is advantageous, but the Habs' wings are so poor defensively and Chara facing such an ugly matchup that it's hard to imagine them slowing down the Savard line with any sort of consistency.

If the lines are switched, the Gilmour line + the 2nd defensive unit may have more success against the Savard line, but the floodgates are wide open for San Francisco's 1st unit to have a field day. In the end, Montreal doesn't have enough fingers to stick in the dike.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,172
7,304
Regina, SK
Guys, this is a hell of a debate.

I thought I knew for sure who I wanted to vote for regardless of the debate, but I will have to go over this with a fine-toothed comb prior to voting and look at who really wins the arguments....

After all, that's how a series should be voted on, right? :P
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,155
14,478
Okay, this one was written after an 18 hour day. I'm sure good portions of it are not coherent...

Mosienko

There’s no justification for writing off 1947 as a “war year†(when Mosienko finished in the top ten in goals, assists and points). The top ten scorers that season included Maurice Richard, Milt Schmidt, Max Bentley, Doug Bentley, Ted Kennedy, Roy Conacher and Bobby Bauer. Out of the top ten scorers that year, eight of them were Hall of Famers. Only Conacher had missed the majority of the 1946 season, so it’s not like these players were out of practice. This doesn’t even count players outside of the top ten (Toe Blake, Syl Apps and Sid Abel) who Mosienko also outscored. Mosienko finished 5-5-7-8-9-11-13-18 in scoring during his career.

You’re significantly underrating Mosienko’s competiton for all-star spots, as well. Between 1944 and 1952 (his nine-year prime), Maurice Richard and Gordie Howe earned a spot on 13 (of a possible 18) all-star berths. In fact, Mosienko was the only other RW with more than one all-star nod during that era.

Irvin/McKenney

I like McKenney; he was a two-way forward with a second-line scoring touch. However, there’s no comparison between him and Irvin, offensively, who was a dominant scorer in every league he played in. I think his legacy as a coach has overshadowed his legacy as a player.

Irvin’s first professional season was 1917. He played in the PCHA and finished one goal & three points behind San Francisco’s second-line LW Frank Foyston (both of whom were born a year apart, so it’s not like I’m comparing a prime Irvin to an aged Foyston). Irvin joined the Army, then tried out different leagues for a few years before returning to the pros (finishing 6th in scoring in 1922 and 7th in scoring in 1924 in the WCHL).

Irvin’s peak was in 1926 and 1927. He dominated two leagues (the WHL and NHL); he finished second in scoring both years, and was stuck behind Bill Cook both times. He led the WHL in goals, and led the NHL in assists the next year. Keep in mind that 1927 was the NHL’s first post-consolidation year which means he beat out every North American pro hockey player (ie Morenz, Boucher, Dye, Denneny, etc), aside from Cook.

Irvin was consistently recognized by the sportswriters of his era as a great player. In his first (and only healthy) NHL season, he finished 4th in Hart tropy voting. He was also a four-time year-end all-star (in the PCHA and WCHL/WHL). Stylistically, Irvin had “exceptional stickhandling abilityâ€. I’ll concede that his playoff record is minimal and that McKenney was a better defensive player but Irvin was clearly the more dominant scorer and was a routine all-star in every league he played in.

It’s also worth mentioning that Irvin and Foyston played in the same league for five years (1917 PCHA, 1925-26 WCHL, 1928-29 NHL). Keep in mind that these players were born one year apart, so it’s not like I’m comparing one in their prime to one past their prime. Anyway, Irvin scored 102 goals & 144 points in 136 games; Foyston scored 65 goals & 92 points in 127. Head-to-head, Irvin consistently outscored Foyston (though I concede Foyston’s peak was earlier in the PCHA). I'm not saying Irvin was definitely the better scorer -- I'm just showing that they were close when they played in the same seasons (and Hay, who we'll get to soon, was even better than Irvin), which provides tremendous scoring depth on the third line.

Hay

I should mention that George Hay is both an excellent scorer and a complete, two-way player. He stands out as the best player on the third line – he clearly tops McKenney’s offense and was praised for his defensive play. Offensively, Hay finished in the top five in scoring in the WCHL in 1922, 1923, 1924 and 1926. As soon as he transitioned to the NHL, he finished in the top ten in assists three consecutive seasons and peaked at 3rd in scoring 1928 (behind only the Morenz/Joliat duo, and ahead of Boucher, Stewart, Cook, etc). This clearly tops the offensive ability of Prentice (who cracked the top ten in scoring just once despite playing most of his career on Bathgate’s wing), Ellis, and McKenney (who had fewer years as a top scorer, and never cracked the top five).

Coach Jack Adams described him as a player who “could do everything†and was “always in condition, always on the job, always willing to play any positionâ€. Defensively, Hay was known for “combining speed and poise, aggressiveness and finesse, with unsurpassed mechanical ability†and was described as an “exceptional stickhandlerâ€. In terms of accolades, Hay was named to the WCHL first all-star team four times and was Hart finalist in 1928.

The presence of two consistent top-five scorers and perennial all-star/Hart candidates on my third line provides an advantage in depth. The comments above indicate that Irvin and (especially) Hay were disciplined two-way players. This means that they can receive ice time in critical situations without hurting the team defensively, and their game-breaking offensive ability could be the difference in a close game.

Irvin and Hay have the potential to be game-breakers offensively. Corbeau and Russell were solid skaters but would have a tough time containing this duo’s speed. Given that they both were top-ten scorers and Hart candidates as soon as the WCHL was consolidated in 1926, it would be impossible to dismiss them due to quality of competition concerns. The advantage in depth scoring will help my team obtain a lead that, as I've demonstrated earlier, will be very difficult to take back.

Hart/Gilmour

I posted those comments before I did my most recent analysis of Hart trophy voting, which places emphasis on high-performing players. Gilmour received 0.70 Hart shares during his career while Savard received 0.30. Only once did Savard earn more than 10% of the maximum votes (1983); Gilmour did that three times (1987, 1993, 1994).

Chara

I disagree that Wentworth and Chara are “a washâ€. Outside of 1935, Wentworth accomplished little to suggest he’s a second-pair ATD defenseman. Chara was routinely considered an elite defenseman (finishing 7-2-4-NR-3 in Norris voting) while Wentworth has a single post-season all-star berth. Wentworth is described as an excellent defensive player; similarly, since they started keeping tracking of TOI, only Lidstrom and Pronger have logged more PK minutes than Chara.

Physical play

I don’t think I’ve emphasized my team’s advantage in physical play yet. The Spiders mostly have smaller forwards, some of whom will worn down by my team’s intense physical presence. Indeed, the biggest matchup in this series might be Vasiliev vs Maltsev. It’s evident that during the Summit Series, Maltsev was contained, especially at even strength, as he couldn’t find time or space due to the Canadians’ intense checking. Russian journalists noted that he as “disappointing†and was “intimidated by the strong bodychecks†(source). Vasiliev was described as a “the most physical defenseman in Russian hockey history†and a “punishing hitter who loved the physical playâ€. Maltsev and Vasiliev were both terrific skaters with great acceleration, so Maltsev will not be able to consistently outscore my #1 defenseman. Vasiliev, a defensemen with toughness, speed, and a real mean streak, is a very difficult matchup for Maltsev.

More generally, my top defensive players (Marcotte, Sanderson, Vasiliev) will be able to use their tenacity and strength to wear down the Spiders smaller forwards. Sturminator himself has admitted that his team is not “physically dominant†and listed physical play as a “potential problem†(source). Vasilev provides “seemingly effortless bodychecking†(source) and was a "punishing hitter who loved the physical play". He was also described as "the toughest and most physical defenseman in Russian hockey history (source)". Marcotte was “hard-hitting†(source) and could “dish out bone-jarring hits†(source). Sanderson was
“as tough as nails, a tremendous forechecker†(source) and was “a tough guy who wouldn't back down from any fisticuffs and was likely the best two-way player in the game†(source). I don’t think it’s necessary to elaborate on how tough and tenacious Tiikanen, Gilmour and Trottier were (or Chara could be, at times).

Although increasing physical play increases the propensity to take penalties, I've already established that I have an outstanding penalty killing unit (and besides most of my key defensive players are tough and clean - Marcotte, Howe & Hay averaged only 30 PIM per 82 games, Westfall averaged around 40, and Vasiliev averaged around 60 in the Soviet league).

More strategy

As I’ve mentioned before I will try to match the Trottier line against the Savard line. Sturm seems to want his forward to focus on the defensive deficiency of the right-hand side (Bure/Chara). However, focusing the attack on one side leaves the Spiders vulnerable to the Habs’ transitional offense. Chara’s partner Howe was one of the best rushing defensemen of is era; he had excellent acceleration and was a great playmaker. If the Spiders forwards are too deep in the offensive zone, a turnover could easily result in Howe setting up Bure or Trottier on a breakaway. Of course, Howe was a great rusher and could use his excellent speed to start an odd-man rush against the Spiders (Savard is the only player on the Spiders’ second line who could keep up with Howe and Bure’s speed, and he was indifferent defensively).

Although I’ve conceded that Bure is poor defensively, Sturminator has admitted that his second line is “below average defensively†(source). I’ll concede that the trio of Trottier, Smith and Bure would also average out to below average defensively. Still, the benefits of letting Bure play wide-open hockey far exceeds the cost (Bure could very well lead this series in goals, especially since he’s being set up by a great playmaking centre and rushing defensemen… and although he will cause a few odd-man rushes against, Hasek was perhaps the greatest goalie in history at turning aside odd-man rushes. After all, he didn’t win consecutive Hart trophies playing behind Alexei Zhitnik as his #1 defenseman for nothing).

As I discussed at length earlier, I will use Vasiliev to contain Maltsev, which historical precedent suggests is the most plausible way to shut him down. They have the necessary combination of speed and aggressiveness that rendered Maltsev ineffective at the Summit Series. I’d expect the Sanderson/Westfall line to receive around 10 minutes of ice time per game, probably 4 on the PK and 6 at ES. Those six minutes will be used against the Sakic/Maltsev line. Using clearly the best defensive line in the series will help contain the Spiders’ strong top line.

For the remainder of the night, I will go for a Sakic/Gilmour matchup. This will provide continuous punishment for Maltsev (who will be checked by Tikkanen and Vasiliev). Although I stand corrected by Sturminator’s comments about Bucyk, I would still rate Mosienko as a fairly unfavourable matchup for him, as Mosienko was one of the speediest players of his generation and should be able to use his speed to jump on the turnovers that Tiikanen and Gilmour’s relentless forechecking will eventually produce. Keeping Lidstrom & Gadsby on the ice with Sakic, will result in a mis-use of this duo’s defensive abilities (as they will face a mix of my second line and checking line). I don’t deny that the Spiders’ top line, on paper, is superior to the Gilmour line; however I think the specific matchups (Mosienko’s speed advantage and Maltsev’s vulnerability to Tiik’s aggressive style) is problematic for San Francisco.

Summary

The Canadiens have a significant advantage in goal (as discussed extensively in previous posts). Sturminator has conceded that we have the better coach, and the best defensive forward line. I’ve argued extensively here that Irvin & Hay provide excellent scoring depth and two-way ability on the third line; I’ve also argued that the Canadiens have the superior 2nd defense pair; and are the more physical team. My strategy provides a credible way of containing Maltsev and maximizing the use of Trottier & Bure’s abilities. I show how & why several specific, key matchups are unfavourable to the Spiders. I concede that San Francisco has the best defense pair, more skill on the LW, and the superior powerplay.

In the playoffs, the Canadiens will get better goaltending, better coaching, better defensive performances from their forwards, while having seven consistent high-end scorers. This provides enough of an edge that the Canadiens will prevail in seven games.

Unfortunately I won't get a chance to respond before voting is over. Sturm, like usual, it's been a good discussion. Thanks to anybody who read this far.
 

Sturminator

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There’s no justification for writing off 1947 as a “war year” (when Mosienko finished in the top ten in goals, assists and points).

46-47 is something of a transitional year. It shouldn't be counted strictly as a war year, but the NHL wouldn't really get up to full strength until 47-48. At any rate, I haven't seen any response to the fact that Bill Mosienko rode the coattails of the Bentleys that season, and as it was barely snuck into the top-10. Although it was probably Mosienko's 2nd best scoring season, the extenuating circumstances of being the third best player on his own line and the fact that Mosienko registered as a top-10 scorer one time in eight seasons after Max Bentley was traded to Toronto. The stark contrast between Mosienko's early success (three war years and then Bentley's Art Ross season) and what he did in less advantageous circumstances should make us extremely suspicious of his early achievements.

HO talks about Mosie's '12 year peak', but really he had a one year peak (51-52) and for the rest of his career was an extremely marginal scoringline talent by ATD standards.

HO lists Mosie's all-star competition for all the years he didn't win, but fails to mention that in the years he did win (44-45 and 45-46), the 3rd best right wing in the league after Richard and Mosienko was Joe Carveth. Who? Yeah, exactly. The question 'who the hell is Joe Carveth' sheds a lot of light on just how sorry the wartime competition (especially at right wing) really was.

The presence of two consistent top-five scorers and perennial all-star/Hart candidates on my third line provides an advantage in depth. The comments above indicate that Irvin and (especially) Hay were disciplined two-way players. This means that they can receive ice time in critical situations without hurting the team defensively, and their game-breaking offensive ability could be the difference in a close game.

HO is asking for a lot of credulity citing Hay and Irvin's offensive resumes, considering that they played most of their careers in the WCHL and SSHL, leagues about which very little is known. Hay, like Irvin, has a nearly nonexistent playoff resume. HO wants us to view this as a secondary scoringline, and yet the unit has no apparent pulse, no one to lead it offensively when things get tough. And things will get tough against Prentice - McKenney - Ellis, a three man unit that is vastly superior to their Montreal counterparts defensively, and has scores more playoff experience.

I don’t think I’ve emphasized my team’s advantage in physical play yet. The Spiders mostly have smaller forwards, some of whom will worn down by my team’s intense physical presence. Indeed, the biggest matchup in this series might be Vasiliev vs Maltsev. It’s evident that during the Summit Series, Maltsev was contained, especially at even strength, as he couldn’t find time or space due to the Canadians’ intense checking.

HO is making an enormous mountain out of a molehill here, asking us to focus on an incredibly small amount of information in Aleksandr Maltsev's long career, but then North Americans have been looking at the Summit Series with tunnel vision for a long time now, so it comes as little surprise, I suppose. If you want to believe that arguably the greatest international skater in Soviet history was soft in spite of his obvious success because of that thin evidence, be my guest.

As for the rest of Montreal's alleged physical advantage, San Francisco isn't a team geared towards trying to dominate through physical play, but neither are they a group of players that is vulnerable to it. There is plenty of physicality to go around on the Spiders roster (Bucyk, Gadsby, Litzenberger, Stuart, Ellis, Prentice, Corbeau, Stuart, Adams, Graham and Russell can all bring it) and no shrinking violets. In fact, as much as HO wants to pimp Montreal's 4th line as a tough as nails unit, they aren't even as physical as Stuart - Adams - Graham, especially considering how much softer Hajt - Rowe are than Corbeau - Russell.

Applied to a team like Dallas, the physicality argument that might have made sense. Applied to Montreal, it borders on the ridiculous, because Montreal is only marginally more physical than San Franisco.

Strategy:

All of HO's strategical posturing is an attempt to cover up the fact that his skaters are simply inferior to their counterparts on the Spiders. Let's compare the rosters. On defense, we have:

Vasiliev vs. Lidstrom - big win for San Francisco
Howe vs. Gadsby - big win for San Francisco
Chara vs. Stuart - opinions will probably vary here. At any rate, we all probably have our own opinions, and for the sake of brevity, I'll call this a draw.
Davydov vs. Wentworth - win for San Francisco
Hajt/Rowe vs. Corbeau/Russell - I won't waste time on this one. The bottom pairings are fairly close.

- in the end, it's a large win for the Spiders in terms of personnel on the blueline, with strong advantages at the most important 1 and 2, and a clear edge at the 4, as well.

Forwards:

Smith vs. Bucyk - big win for San Francisco
Trottier vs. Sakic - draw
Bure vs. Maltsev - win for San Francisco
Tikkanen vs. Foyston - big win for San Francisco
Gilmour vs. Savard - win for Montreal
Mosienko vs. Litzenberger - win for San Francisco

- on the scoringlines, Montreal enjoys an advantage only at 2nd line center, while San Francisco has an advantage at every wing position, and wins in a landslide on the left side.

Hay vs. Prentice - draw
Irvin vs. McKenney - I won't belabor this point anymore, but win for San Francisco
Gustafsson vs. Ellis - big win for San Francisco

There's no real reason to compare 4th lines, as the units are vastly different in terms of purpose and personnell. At any rate, simply breaking down the personnell matchups paints an extremely ugly picture for Montreal.

San Francisco has clear-cut, unquestionable advantages at the following positions:

#1 D, #2 D, 1st line LW, 2nd line LW, 3rd line RW

Montreal has clear-cut personnel advantages at the following:

Goal, 2nd line center

San Francisco has clear (though less pronounced) edges at the following:

1st line RW, 2nd line RW, #4 D

Montreal has clear edges at the following:

N/A

All this strategizing is nothing but a shell game on HO's part to get voters to ignore the fact that San Francisco's skaters are, on the whole, vastly superior. Even if you believe HO's strategy will work exactly as planned (and I see little reason for that - we don't even know who has home ice), the Habs have a long uphill battle to even reach a level of parity with San Francisco. San Francisco's biggest advantage is on the first unit, where the Spiders win big on the left wing and at both defensive positions, and hold an advantage on the right wing, as well. This plays out, in terms of icetime, more strongly than Montreal's advantage at 2nd line center. San Francisco's advantages are maximized by keeping the dominant players on the ice for as long as possible.

HO has 'manufactured' an advantage by reducing the icetime for 4/5th of his top unit (Smith, Trottier, Bure and Howe) and matching them against the Spiders' 2nd line. He started by arguing that this unit could shut down the Savard line, but has since abandoned that argument as it is clear that his wings are a liability defensively and Chara is facing a highly unfavorable skills matchup.

He wants us to overlook the fact that his 1st unit (which will receive the most icetime) now consists of Tikkanen - Gilmour - Mosienko - Vasiliev - Davydov, which is so inferior to Bucyk - Sakic - Maltsev - Lidstrom - Gadsby it boggles the mind that any GM would actually want such a matchup to occupy the largest portion of even strength icetime in the series. The Habs' offensive players are not good enough to generate anything but the most sporadic offense against the Spiders' top unit, and they aren't good enough defensively to shut it down.

Thus arranged, San Francisco will have two scoringlines that can generate consistent offense while Montreal will have to rely on the Trottier line for everything. Montreal's 3rd line has two strong offensive players, but an offensive hole on the left, little defensive value and no proven playoff leaders. San Francisco's 3rd line has three strong offensive players, excellent defensive coverage and unquestioned playoff credentials. San Francisco's 4th line is easily offensively superior to Montreal's, which is nothing but a checking unit. The Habs simply won't generate a lead to protect.
 
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pitseleh

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Helluva debate. I wanted to add something but I just would have repeated something someone else had already said.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Game 1: The lockdown.

Sakic wins the draw back to Gadsby. Bure flies full speed, attempting to intercept the pass. With the sudden pressure, Gadsby passes to Maltsev. Smith is hovering near Maltsev as he passes to Sakic. Sakic skates through center ice. THUD! Huge open ice hit by Trottier. Trottier passes to Smith who's energy shoots up with puck possesion. Smith to Bure. Bure is going full tilt...right into a thunderous Gadsby hit. Lidstrom collects the puck. Pass to Bucyk. Bucyk can't navigate his way around Chara. Chara passes to Howe. Howe to Trottier, intercepted by Sakic. Sakic carries it in... But Maltsev is offside.

Montreal wins game 1. 1-0
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Game 2: Open ice

Hay dumps the puck in as he and Gustafsson chase. Wentworth collects. Cy waits until Hay and Begnt are close. Fakes a pass Foyston. Hay bites. Wentworth passes instead to Stuart. Stuart uses the open ice to press the attack as quickly as he can. Irvin can't commit to checking Stuart for fear of a 3 on 2. Stuart takes the offensive zone and hands off to Litzenberger. Litzenberger drives hard into Irvin, creating room for a hand off to Savard. Savard undresses Vasiliev and a give and go with Foyston leaves Davydov tangled in nots. Savard in tight, spins, passes to the wide open Litzenberger. Hay struggles to catch up. Quick shot. GOAL!

San Francisco wins 4-1. Series is tied 1-1.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Game 3: Patience is a virtue.

Lidstrom is at his own blueline. He's attempting to lead the breakout. Tikkanen is chasing him. Lidstrom holds the puck. Skating back, forward, left, right, where ever Tikkanen isn't. Pass to Adams. ROCKED BY GILMOUR. Lidstrom collects the loose puck. Takes the center line. Gilmour to his right. Tikkanen behind him. Mosienko to his left. Rowe pinching in to pressure the outlet. Lidstrom waits. Narrowly avoids a stick check from Mosienko. Quick pass. Graham in all alone. Wrist shot. SCORES!

San Francisco wins 5-3 to take a 2-1 series lead.
 
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Nalyd Psycho

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Game 4: The quick and the dead.

One one, overtime. San Francisco pressing the attack. Bucyk's got the puck in the corner. Pass to Sakic in the slot. Quick shot. Stopped by Hasek! Maltsev pounces on the rebound. Impossible save by the man with a slinky for a spine. Chara gets the rebound. Pass to Bure. And he's gone. Granted, there was no one in front of him. Bure vs Fuhr, one on one. Bure skates straight on. No dekes no tricks. As he gets close, Bure goes to the backhand, Fuhr spreads the leagues to cover the corner. Quick switch to the forehand and a slight change of direction. Fuhr is caught. No way he can cover the other side of the net. Bure scores. And, if you watch closely, you can see Fuhr's boxer's hanging from the blade of Bure's stick.

Montreal wins 2-1 in overtime to tie the series 2-2.
 
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