Around the NHL Discussion Part XIV

Status
Not open for further replies.

Evocable Manager

Registered User
Apr 20, 2016
3,837
883
St. Louis
Stupid Crosby at 8.7, so much money left on the table.
That's a superstition of his.
If there's one player in the league that shouldn't take a hometown discount it's Karlsson. He's literally the backbone of that team.
I never understood why the star player who is truly significant should take the discounts (McDavid, Karlsson) but not the middle six guys and support players. People's perception on that baffles me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RoarBacon

The Note in MI

Bow to the pyramid
Aug 21, 2013
3,151
991
Muskegon, MI
That's a superstition of his.

I never understood why the star player who is truly significant should take the discounts (McDavid, Karlsson) but not the middle six guys and support players. People's perception on that baffles me.

Yet you see a massive discrepancy between a middle six salary and a superstar. 10m is a lot more than 3-5m you see a middle sixer take.
 
Apr 30, 2012
21,052
5,434
St. Louis, MO
Stupid Crosby at 8.7, so much money left on the table.

I don't really think he did. He signed the last of the long term "back diving" contracts. The last three years he only makes 3 million per season. Take those out and he's over a 10 million dollar cap hit. Frankly, I think the only reason those last three years were included was out of superstition so he could keep an 8.7 cap hit. He makes almost all the money in the first nine years.

Plus this contract kicked in back in 2013-2014. He's already in the fifth season of it. It was one of the highest cap hits at the time it was signed and that's including last three years tacked on at the end. If I recall correctly, a cap hit of 10 million dollars would have been the highest in the league at the time he signed it.
 

Thallis

No half measures
Jan 23, 2010
9,188
4,572
Behind Blue Eyes
That's a superstition of his.

I never understood why the star player who is truly significant should take the discounts (McDavid, Karlsson) but not the middle six guys and support players. People's perception on that baffles me.

Middle six guys don't have much room to go down, and won't have much of an impact. When a star player takes a discount, it signal that he puts the team, city, and winning above himself. It's selfless and admirable. There's also tangible effects when top talent are underpaid (or have circumventing cap hits) in Hossa, Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Kieth, Crosby, and Malkin contracts when compared to guys who are earning what they deserve in Price, Lundqvist, Kane, Toews, and Kopitar. Fans like winning and having stars take discounts for the team is like the ultimate fan service.
 

EastonBlues22

Registered User
Nov 25, 2003
14,807
10,496
RIP Fugu ϶(°o°)ϵ
Noticed Vrana's currently 4th on the Caps in goals scored with 9, behind Ovechkin (21), Kuznetsov (10), and Oshie (10).

Not that it matters to us at this point, but it reminded me of those arguments about who was the better prospect between him and Sanford.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vincenzo Arelliti

Evocable Manager

Registered User
Apr 20, 2016
3,837
883
St. Louis
Noticed Vrana's currently 4th on the Caps in goals scored with 9, behind Ovechkin (21), Kuznetsov (10), and Oshie (10).

Not that it matters to us at this point, but it reminded me of those arguments about who was the better prospect between him and Sanford.
Who ever debated that?
I really hope nobody ever believed Sanford was the better prospect.
 

Dbrownss

Registered User
Jan 5, 2014
31,359
8,734
Noticed Vrana's currently 4th on the Caps in goals scored with 9, behind Ovechkin (21), Kuznetsov (10), and Oshie (10).

Not that it matters to us at this point, but it reminded me of those arguments about who was the better prospect between him and Sanford.
Not that I disagree that he's most likely the better prospect but Sanford is injured....kinda unfair, no?
 

EastonBlues22

Registered User
Nov 25, 2003
14,807
10,496
RIP Fugu ϶(°o°)ϵ
How isn't it a comparison?
I mentioned how Vrana was stacking up to the rest of the Capital's roster. Sanford is not on the Capital's roster.

There's an (implied) open question as to whether Sanford is capable of doing what Vrana is currently doing, but that's hardly dependent on Sanford's stat line this year.
 

Evocable Manager

Registered User
Apr 20, 2016
3,837
883
St. Louis
There was definitely a contingent that argued Sanford was better because he beat out Vrana for a bottom six role the year of the trade.
That's a horrible basis for an argument. Sanford is also 1 year older, less talented and fits the mold of a bottom 6 player better (but he's still terrible in it).
 

Dbrownss

Registered User
Jan 5, 2014
31,359
8,734
I mentioned how Vrana was stacking up to the rest of the Capital's roster. Sanford is not on the Capital's roster.

There's an (implied) open question as to whether Sanford is capable of doing what Vrana is currently doing, but that's hardly dependent on Sanford's stat line this year.
I must have missed out on something....
 

Bluesnatic27

Registered User
Aug 5, 2011
4,715
3,212
That's a horrible basis for an argument. Sanford is also 1 year older, less talented and fits the mold of a bottom 6 player better (but he's still terrible in it).
You got that right! You could say he hasn’t played in the bottom-6 at all this season and I’d believe you!
 

Evocable Manager

Registered User
Apr 20, 2016
3,837
883
St. Louis
You got that right! You could say he hasn’t played in the bottom-6 at all this season and I’d believe you!
Yea cause every team loves guys who can't hold onto the puck to save their life, get mauled in any physical confrontation and don't have the speed/skill to get around those weaknesses.

I can't assume he's improved so much as to excel in any of these areas because it likely takes more than one summer and he has been injured. If you wanna make a case he suddenly does, I'm all ears.
 

Bluesnatic27

Registered User
Aug 5, 2011
4,715
3,212
Yea cause every team loves guys who can't hold onto the puck to save their life, get mauled in any physical confrontation and don't have the speed/skill to get around those weaknesses.

I can't assume he's improved so much as to excel in any of these areas because it likely takes more than one summer and he has been injured. If you wanna make a case he suddenly does, I'm all ears.
Huh, I didn't know everyone hates players that have very good puck handling abilities, a a 6'3" frame, and whose problems stem from very fixable deficiencies, i.e. balance and becoming accustomed to the physicality of the NHL.

I guess you got me that I can't prove he's suddenly fixed every, or even any, area he's had a problem with. I guess I should say congratulations to you for that. But then again, I wasn't the one making such definitive claims and ignoring the possibilities of that weird phenomenon called "progression". But hey, I'm also all ears to hear why "terrible" is a very applicable term to describe a rookie player being thrust straight into NHL hockey. Especially when evidence from college and the AHL suggests otherwise.
 
  • Like
Reactions: simon in canada

Evocable Manager

Registered User
Apr 20, 2016
3,837
883
St. Louis
Huh, I didn't know everyone hates players that have very good puck handling abilities, a a 6'3" frame, and whose problems stem from very fixable deficiencies, i.e. balance and becoming accustomed to the physicality of the NHL.

I guess you got me that I can't prove he's suddenly fixed every, or even any, area he's had a problem with. I guess I should say congratulations to you for that. But then again, I wasn't the one making such definitive claims and ignoring the possibilities of that weird phenomenon called "progression". But hey, I'm also all ears to hear why "terrible" is a very applicable term to describe a rookie player being thrust straight into NHL hockey. Especially when evidence from college and the AHL suggests otherwise.
Did I say I hate Sanford? I'll admit I'm not a huge fan, but I don't hate him. I never ignored progression. Could he improve from his rookie year? Certainly. But I'd hardly call his puck handling abilities very good, there really just above average at best. His strength on his skates can be fixed but it isn't going to happen in one summer. All in all, he's a rather average prospect with middle six upside.

I said he was terrible in a bottom six role, not that he was a terrible player. His skill set is more suited for a scoring role. But for what it's worth, if a player is terrible at something, whether he's been around for 10 years or 10 days doesn't change the fact he's terrible at it. Sanford is terrible at protecting the puck. Could he get better? Maybe, but there's no evidence he has. So it's safe to assume he hasn't. If he could handle he rigorous nature of the NHL, he would've been able to hang onto the puck. Jaskin isn't overly skilled but he has always been a beast when it comes to the cycle game and puck protection.

If Sanford is going to make a career for himself, he needs to likely adjust his game so he can play more effectively in a checking role.
 

2 Minute Minor

Hi Keeba!
Jun 3, 2008
15,615
124
Temple, Texas
Geez Easton, why'd you do this?

Its hard to believe Sanford wouldn't be able to secure a top 9 role on the team this year if he made any meaningful development over the summer. It sucks that he got injured. I'm still curious whether there is a chance he plays regular minutes at the end of the season. I wish we had him right now, when the 3rd line continues to struggle to find someone that can stick.
 

Bluesnatic27

Registered User
Aug 5, 2011
4,715
3,212
Did I say I hate Sanford? I'll admit I'm not a huge fan, but I don't hate him. I never ignored progression. Could he improve from his rookie year? Certainly. But I'd hardly call his puck handling abilities very good, there really just above average at best. His strength on his skates can be fixed but it isn't going to happen in one summer. All in all, he's a rather average prospect with middle six upside.

I said he was terrible in a bottom six role, not that he was a terrible player. His skill set is more suited for a scoring role. But for what it's worth, if a player is terrible at something, whether he's been around for 10 years or 10 days doesn't change the fact he's terrible at it. Sanford is terrible at protecting the puck. Could he get better? Maybe, but there's no evidence he has. So it's safe to assume he hasn't. If he could handle he rigorous nature of the NHL, he would've been able to hang onto the puck. Jaskin isn't overly skilled but he has always been a beast when it comes to the cycle game and puck protection.

If Sanford is going to make a career for himself, he needs to likely adjust his game so he can play more effectively in a checking role.
Well then I apologize for jumping on you then. I thought you were trying to say Sanford was terrible. My bad.

I wasn't trying to say that Sanford is some special talent that WILL progress. I agree that he is just an average guy that could become a middle-6 option. Although, I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

I still have a gripe with the whole "10 years vs 10 days" idea, but now that I better understand what you're trying to say, it's whatever.
 

simon IC

Moderator
Sponsor
Sep 8, 2007
9,238
7,634
Canada
How do we know if the the Blues ever had a choice between Vrana and Sanford? Now before I get accused of building a "straw man", I do understand that no one has stated this. If Blues fans are asked to compare Vrana and Sanford, Vrana obviously wins. This in turn begs the question of which player Blues fans would rather have. Again, obviously Vrana. So, being that both players are/were Capitals prospects and the return for TJ Oshie was Sanford +, Blues fans ask themselves why they didn't get Vrana, or at least why we didn't ask for him. The argument is in the inference. (I'm not sure if I am expressing myself correctly here, so I appreciate your patience). I just think this leads to an unfair and biased evaluation of Curtis Sanford, especially when he is compared to Vrana, "the guy we could have had", who may in fact have never been involved in trade discussions.
 

MacDonald4MVP

Registered User
May 7, 2016
10,034
5,365
Flyers record with lehtera 4-9-4, without 8-3-3. That's roughly difference between 58 and 119 point season.
 

EastonBlues22

Registered User
Nov 25, 2003
14,807
10,496
RIP Fugu ϶(°o°)ϵ
How do we know if the the Blues ever had a choice between Vrana and Sanford? Now before I get accused of building a "straw man", I do understand that no one has stated this. If Blues fans are asked to compare Vrana and Sanford, Vrana obviously wins. This in turn begs the question of which player Blues fans would rather have. Again, obviously Vrana. So, being that both players are/were Capitals prospects and the return for TJ Oshie was Sanford +, Blues fans ask themselves why they didn't get Vrana, or at least why we didn't ask for him. The argument is in the inference. (I'm not sure if I am expressing myself correctly here, so I appreciate your patience). I just think this leads to an unfair and biased evaluation of Curtis Sanford, especially when he is compared to Vrana, "the guy we could have had", who may in fact have never been involved in trade discussions.
We don't know if they had a choice, or if the Blues even asked about Vrana. What we know is what we've been told.

At the trade deadline, Armstrong's goal was to get a first-round pick plus a young, cost-controlled player. His scouting staff identified Sanford as one of the Capitals prospects to pursue.

"They see a lot of Tage Thompson in him, a player we took in the first round, a big body, a point a game player as a sophomore at Boston College . . . on a very good team in college," Armstrong said during a Tuesday morning press conference.

At 6-foot-4, he could offer appealing size at center, a position of acute need for the Blues. Or he could end up on the wing. A second-round pick in 2013, Sanford played two years at Boston College before turning pro this season.

"I see a big player that is multi-positional," Armstrong said. "We're hoping to see him as a centerman, a player that can produce offense . . . If a 6-4 Zach and a 6-4, 6-5 Tage Thompson down the middle for a few years wouldn't hurt my feelings."

The first adjective that comes to Armstrong's mind when describing Sanford, twice, is that he's big. We know the organization values size, and we also know that the Blues valued Thompson (Armstrong's comp for Sanford, and one that received similar descriptions post-draft) over a smaller, speedier, skilled guy in Kyrou.

It's really not much of a leap from there to think that the Blues might have preferred Sanford to Vrana as well, since Vrana was similar to Kyrou in a number of ways when drafted. Both are mobile, slightly undersized, skill guys who project as wingers. Both are good play-makers that need to use others better since they have a tendency to over-handle the puck. Both need to work on their games away from the puck. There are some differences, like Vrana is the more willing shooter while Kryou is the more dangerous skater, but there are definitely similarities there. It's inferential, but the inferences are pretty strong.

The Blues have their reasons, and they aren't without merit. Size isn't completely irrelevant. Positional flexibility is valuable. If he has potential at center, that's an area of need. He was further along in his development than anyone else the Blues could have likely landed from Washington. He has a higher floor than Vrana. There are legitimate things there to like. I also agree that Sanford should be judged on his own merits at this point.

That said, this is a discussion that's still worth having in the sense that it's a discussion about this organization's decision making values and trends. Even if we can't change those things as fans, it's still beneficial to try to identify and understand them so we have a better idea of what's happening, and why. That, in turn, leads to better informed opinions, and ultimately better discussions, which is why many of us are here to begin with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vincenzo Arelliti

Reality Czech

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
4,964
7,890
How do we know if the the Blues ever had a choice between Vrana and Sanford? Now before I get accused of building a "straw man", I do understand that no one has stated this. If Blues fans are asked to compare Vrana and Sanford, Vrana obviously wins. This in turn begs the question of which player Blues fans would rather have. Again, obviously Vrana. So, being that both players are/were Capitals prospects and the return for TJ Oshie was Sanford +, Blues fans ask themselves why they didn't get Vrana, or at least why we didn't ask for him. The argument is in the inference. (I'm not sure if I am expressing myself correctly here, so I appreciate your patience). I just think this leads to an unfair and biased evaluation of Curtis Sanford, especially when he is compared to Vrana, "the guy we could have had", who may in fact have never been involved in trade discussions.

Not to jump into this brouhaha, but I never recall Vrana being in play. He has been their top prospect for the last year or two and I doubt Vrana + a 1st was a possibility and doubt he was much in play at all. I'd think most would agree Vrana has much more value, but it's a really bummer Sanford is hurt. I liked what I saw from him overall, though, and he would sure be nice to have right now.

But I was actually coming here to pile onto the Sens. Just saw Duchene only has 2+2 in 15 games with a -10. The GM vultures are circling, half the proposals on the trade board are Sens-related, and fans must be going mental. If Karlsson is grumbling behind the scenes, I guess he could be moved sooner than though. Hard to believe he'd sell lowish on Hoffman, but their GM has already gone on record saying he's going to shake things up. Woo, what a mess!
 

Vincenzo Arelliti

He Can't Play Center
Oct 13, 2014
9,363
3,854
Lisle, IL
What’s our equivalent of Sanford+1st? The last shakeup trade we did was Oshie and that’s what we got for a top-6 winger with another year left. How does that stack up Stone or Hoffman?

:sarcasm:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad