Around the NHL 2023-24 - playoff thread

[Rhodes 81]

Ah, damn. So this is like, the Arizona Coyotes sold the assets of the team, including contracts for players and reserve lists, to this Utah franchise, and still exist, although in $0 revenue $0 cost format? Crikey. This means that there will have to be some complementary eastern expansion in the future.

Yep, he basically has 5 years to build an arena and trigger an expansion draft to have his team back. I presume the interest from Atlanta groups and ever present QC gives them the confidence to do this, along with the assumption that he won't actually do it.

 

[forceten]

Yep, he basically has 5 years to build an arena and trigger an expansion draft to have his team back. I presume the interest from Atlanta groups and ever present QC gives them the confidence to do this, along with the assumption that he won't actually do it.

I just don't get Atlanta not having a team, and I know they've tried twice, I hear all the counter arguments, but it's a massive city and the population growth is literally not from the southeast so...

Georgia is weird in general though. MARTA arguments, the inherent racism in why it stops before it should, etc.

 

[Rhodes 81]

I just don't get Atlanta not having a team, and I know they've tried twice, I hear all the counter arguments, but it's a massive city and the population growth is literally not from the southeast so...

Georgia is weird in general though. MARTA arguments, the inherent racism in why it stops before it should, etc.

I'm truly indifferent about getting a team back here, maybe that would change if something more concrete occurs to suggest it will actually happen, but there's really no getting around Atlanta and Houston as markets a US/Canada based league needs to be in. The Coyotes moving to Utah pours some cold water on both coming in simultaneously.

Unfortunately Atlanta will forever suffer from inherently racist transit and city planning policies from many decades ago. The true city limits contain more housing and and are much more walkable than they were 15 years ago when the Thrashers left, but there is still the problem of the 75/85 connector, your point of where MARTA does and doesn't go, and the gentrification factor involved with the improvements that have been made (though that's a whole separate conversation).

I can tell you if I had the money to afford the space I have in the suburbs, I would actually live in the city limits now which is something I wouldn't have said a decade ago. But it's not enough to make a downtown arena make sense for hockey to this point which would really be the ideal scenario for a return. I also wonder if NHL Atlanta lost their niche with the arrival of Atlanta United since the Thrashers left. They're the most heavily attended MLS team by far and have completely won over the youthful, diverse demographic that the Thrashers consistently tried and failed to market to by resonating with the identity of particularly urban ATLiens.

It's part of why I'm so much more pro the Anson Carter group than I am the other proposal. In theory, they're both in Alpharetta. But North Fulton county can claim to still be Atlanta and still try to resonate with actual Atlanta residents in a way South Forsyth cannot. There is growing appetite to expand MARTA in a meaningful capacity to reach North Fulton, and the arena development itself could really help with that. Many people would be happier to contribute to the economy in Fulton vs. Forsyth, and getting Marta to that area would unite Atlanta proper to Alpharetta in a way that would make it feel more akin to Sandy Springs or the area of Cobb where the Braves' stadium is located (not that MARTA goes there either) and less like a disconnected suburban city. MARTA will never extend all the way to Forsyth which would be a major blow for any urban or south suburban fans actually wanting to attend games.

Didn't mean to turn this thread into an ATL discourse for the 3rd time in a year, so I'll stop there.

 

[forceten]

I'm truly indifferent about getting a team back here, maybe that would change if something more concrete occurs to suggest it will actually happen, but there's really no getting around Atlanta and Houston as markets a US/Canada based league needs to be in. The Coyotes moving to Utah pours some cold water on both coming in simultaneously.

Unfortunately Atlanta will forever suffer from inherently racist transit and city planning policies from many decades ago. The true city limits contain more housing and and are much more walkable than they were 15 years ago when the Thrashers left, but there is still the problem of the 75/85 connector, your point of where MARTA does and doesn't go, and the gentrification factor involved with the improvements that have been made (though that's a whole separate conversation).

I can tell you if I had the money to afford the space I have in the suburbs, I would actually live in the city limits now which is something I wouldn't have said a decade ago. But it's not enough to make a downtown arena make sense for hockey to this point which would really be the ideal scenario for a return. I also wonder if NHL Atlanta lost their niche with the arrival of Atlanta United since the Thrashers left. They're the most heavily attended MLS team by far and have completely won over the youthful, diverse demographic that the Thrashers consistently tried and failed to market to by resonating with the identity of particularly urban ATLiens.

It's part of why I'm so much more pro the Anson Carter group than I am the other proposal. In theory, they're both in Alpharetta. But North Fulton county can claim to still be Atlanta and still try to resonate with actual Atlanta residents in a way South Forsyth cannot. There is growing appetite to expand MARTA in a meaningful capacity to reach North Fulton, and the arena development itself could really help with that. Many people would be happier to contribute to the economy in Fulton vs. Forsyth, and getting Marta to that area would unite Atlanta proper to Alpharetta in a way that would make it feel more akin to Sandy Springs or the area of Cobb where the Braves' stadium is located (not that MARTA goes there either) and less like a disconnected suburban city. MARTA will never extend all the way to Forsyth which would be a major blow for any urban or south suburban fans actually wanting to attend games.

Didn't mean to turn this thread into an ATL discourse for the 3rd time in a year, so I'll stop there.

Excellent analysis and having worked at an ATL based company for the last year, I agree wholeheartedly. It's a shame, because that corridor from north springs to an area between roswell and alpharetta (with station stops for each town and the arena mid-area) would be amazing with the MARTA extension, and that's all within Fulton.

One day. America sucks at public transit anyway. Here in Raleigh we struggle to get light rail/metro built, and are settling for BRT (not my favorite) and even that people are complaining about. We lost Raleigh->Wilmington train 50 years ago and people are saying how trains are just wastes of money, ignoring the absolutely massive economic development that happens along the train lines and around the stations which nobody ever factors into the discussion of the cost. They're going to do it but they're doing it dumbly along existing freight ROW to towns nobody needs to go to (Selma, Goldsboro) and making the train slow enough that cars on interstate 40 will beat the train by 30 minutes. The train should be as crow flies, on modern high speed tech, and beating cars by an hour.

 

[My3Sons]

Excellent analysis and having worked at an ATL based company for the last year, I agree wholeheartedly. It's a shame, because that corridor from north springs to an area between roswell and alpharetta (with station stops for each town and the arena mid-area) would be amazing with the MARTA extension, and that's all within Fulton.

One day. America sucks at public transit anyway. Here in Raleigh we struggle to get light rail/metro built, and are settling for BRT (not my favorite) and even that people are complaining about. We lost Raleigh->Wilmington train 50 years ago and people are saying how trains are just wastes of money, ignoring the absolutely massive economic development that happens along the train lines and around the stations which nobody ever factors into the discussion of the cost. They're going to do it but they're doing it dumbly along existing freight ROW to towns nobody needs to go to (Selma, Goldsboro) and making the train slow enough that cars on interstate 40 will beat the train by 30 minutes. The train should be as crow flies, on modern high speed tech, and beating cars by an hour.

Trains should be subterranean and mag lev speed trains. Why just perpetuate a somewhat updated version of a train from 150 years ago?

 

[MadDevil]

These either sound like a 1996 IHL team or an energy drink

I saw somebody on Twitter joke that they must be new Gatorade flavors.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

 

[njdevils1982]

I saw somebody on Twitter joke that they must be new Gatorade flavors.

yellow gato or GTFO

 

[forceten]

What? What violation?

 

[Camille the Eel]

Don’t know the whole story but potentially very unfair to him. Wasn’t it rumored that he was personally a pawn in a game involving some Oligarchs close to the former Kremlin and was therefore unable to leave without risking his neck? Even without that the situation is tense and insecure enough that I don’t like to see any KHL player be penalized for not coming to the NHL right now. There are serious cross currents. Don’t go after the players.

 

[Guttersniped]

Don’t know the whole story but potentially very unfair to him. Wasn’t it rumored that he was personally a pawn in a game involving some Oligarchs close to the former Kremlin and was therefore unable to leave without risking his neck? Even without that the situation is tense and insecure enough that I don’t like to see any KHL player be penalized for not coming to the NHL right now. There are serious cross currents. Don’t go after the players.

They already did this?



Why is he punished again and more severely for the same thing?



And I’m not talking politics, what’s their dumb official reason according to their rules?

 

[Blackjack]

Is it too late for the NHL to give them Celebrini too?

 

[None Shall Pass]

Thought this was an interesting observation by Hank. @Bleedred you might appreciate it too.

 

[Bleedred]

Thought this was an interesting observation by Hank. @Bleedred you might appreciate it too.

I saw it posted the other day.

I agree with him that it’s a pandemic. I see goals like this every other night during the regular season. Sometimes nightly when there’s a lot of games on. And there’s already been several of them throughout these playoffs.

This is why I try and shy away from giving these types of goals softy of the night, unless there’s really just nothing more deserving. Because they’re so frequent these days. Much more frequent than wraparounds.

I never realized how many of these goals there were going around the league until I started watching every single goal.

I do get very annoyed when I see one, but I feel like there’s at least one of these goals on almost every goalie in the league per year that plays a sizable number of games. And sometimes multiple times per year. I remember Ben Bishop used to allow a decent amount of these and his expected save percentages on most of the models wasn’t much lower than the .920%+ he was playing at. Which tells me that he was showing up analytically.

 

[Saugus]

Is it too late for the NHL to give them Celebrini too?

There's a special level of irony in the Blackhawks screwing over someone who was supposed to help their image with Native Americans.

 

[Blackjack]

There's a special level of irony in the Blackhawks screwing over someone who was supposed to help their image with Native Americans.

Yeah, I thought that too

 

[Bleedred]

The Hawks are really just a slimy and unlikeable franchise. Almost irredeemable at this point.

Between Kyle Beach and the other sexual assault/harassment stuff over there. Rocky Wirtz’s outburst when asked about Kyle Beach.

They celebrate and have a statue of a despicable woman beater in front of their building.

 

[Lindys Lazy Eye]

Or, uh, the Utah Jazz? ROFL

Utah Rock N Rollers.

 

[Bleedred]

Or, uh, the Utah Jazz? ROFL

I think it would be kind of funny if there were entities of sports teams from the same cities with the same name from different sports. Especially if it was the same ownership group. I think it would be funny if they pumped Utah Jazz basketball and Utah Jazz hockey and promoted them as one organization in different sports. Especially since it's the same owner.

There's countless examples of two different teams in different sports from the same city sharing a name (Colorado Rockies being one) but I can't think of many that were both active at the same time.

There were both the New York baseball Giants and New York football Giants at one point. I still think it's weird when people say ''New York FOOTBALL Giants!'' considering it's been like 75 years since there was a New York baseball Giants. I don't think they need to be differentiated when talking present times. I have no idea if there were ever both owned by the same people at that time.

One other one that comes to mind were the St. Louis Cardinals of the NFL who were there at the same time as the St. Louis Cardinals of the MLB. Before they moved to Arizona.

Utah Rock N Rollers.

Wasn't it Rockin'Rollers or something like that? I always thought that was a lame name.

 

[Lindys Lazy Eye]

Wasn't it Rockin'Rollers or something like that? I always thought that was a lame name.

It was roller hockey right? Such a late 80s/90s thing. I liked that logo. It reminded me of the old Wheels in Motion roller rink over in Rockaway.

 

[Bleedred]

It was roller hockey right? Such a late 80s/90s thing. I liked that logo. It reminded me of the old Wheels in Motion roller rink over in Rockaway.

Yeah, it was roller hockey. I don't think I ever went to a game.

I even remember it being shown on ESPN (I think?) or ESPN2 sometimes. I would opt to watch boat racing (and NASCAR/Formula 1 of course) and beach volleyball over it when it came on during the summer. If I wasn't out doing outdoor activities. It just wasn't my thing.

 

[Lindys Lazy Eye]

Yeah, it was roller hockey. I don't think I ever went to a game.

I even remember it being shown on ESPN (I think?) or ESPN2 sometimes. I would opt to watch boat racing (and NASCAR/Formula 1 of course) and beach volleyball over it when it came on during the summer. If I wasn't out doing outdoor activities. It just wasn't my thing.

Whenever I went to the CAA back in the day I'd always see that advertised and Red Dogs football. I don't think I went to either.

NASCAR was always my summer sport. Outside of the Yankees of course but I never actually went to Yankee stadium (old or new) until later in life.

 

[Guttersniped]

I think it would be kind of funny if there were entities of sports teams from the same cities with the same name from different sports. Especially if it was the same ownership group. I think it would be funny if they pumped Utah Jazz basketball and Utah Jazz hockey and promoted them as one organization in different sports. Especially since it's the same owner.

There's countless examples of two different teams in different sports from the same city sharing a name (Colorado Rockies being one) but I can't think of many that were both active at the same time.

There were both the New York baseball Giants and New York football Giants at one point. I still think it's weird when people say ''New York FOOTBALL Giants!'' considering it's been like 75 years since there was a New York baseball Giants. I don't think they need to be differentiated when talking present times. I have no idea if there were ever both owned by the same people at that time.

One other one that comes to mind were the St. Louis Cardinals of the NFL who were there at the same time as the St. Louis Cardinals of the MLB. Before they moved to Arizona.



Wasn't it Rockin'Rollers or something like that? I always thought that was a lame name.

That Cardinals and Giants thing was deliberate. Baseball was the top sport. Football teams came later and usually played in baseball stadiums, so they named the football teams after them.

Giants: teams played at the Polo Gounds for decades until they both moved in the 50s.

Cardinals: both teams played in Sportsman’s Park in the 1960s.

Cubs/Bears: the Bears played at Wrigley until 1970.

Tigers/Lions: The football team changed their name after the Tigers won the World Series in 1935, and played in Tigers Stadium until 1975.

Pirates/ Steelers: Steelers were originally named Pirates and kept the colors when they were re-named. Both teams played at Forbes Field until 69-70.

Some Defunct NFL teams:
Washington (DC) Senators (1921)
New York Yankees (1927-29, played you know where)
Cleveland Indians (1931, played in Cleveland Municipal Stadium)
Cincinnati Reds (1933-34, played in Crosley Field)
Brooklyn Dodgers (1930-43, played in Ebbets Field)

And this is all an excuse to tell the story of how the Redskins got their terrible original name. (As opposed to their new terrible name.)

When the team started in Boston in 1932 they played at Braves Stadium, home of the National League Boston Braves, so the football team was creatively named the Boston Braves.

But they switched to Fenway Park the next season. The owner had already planned to update the logo/branding in 1933, really leaning in on Native American imagery, before they decided to switch stadiums.

But they couldn’t call themselves the Braves after moving.

They wanted a name that tied them to the Red Sox and allowed them to keep their branding, and that’s how they ended up with the worst possible choice.

They later claimed other bullshit reasons for the name, that were very bullshit, including honoring their allegedly (but not really) Native American coach William Henry Dietz.

They were a flop in Boston, so they moved to DC in 1937, and kept the terrible name.

Why Did the Washington Redskins Choose the Name “Redskins” in the First Place, Rather than Some Other Native American Name? – Marquette University Law School Faculty Blog

law.marquette.edu

 

[Bleedred]

Whenever I went to the CAA back in the day I'd always see that advertised and Red Dogs football. I don't think I went to either.

NASCAR was always my summer sport. Outside of the Yankees of course but I never actually went to Yankee stadium (old or new) until later in life.

Red Dogs is a real blast from the 90s. I forgot all about that.

Were they sponsored by the beer? Which may even be a defunct brand at this point.

 

[Lindys Lazy Eye]

Red Dogs is a real blast from the 90s. I forgot all about that.

Were they sponsored by the beer? Which may even be a defunct brand at this point.

Not defunct apparently, just harder to find then 25-30 years ago.