Around Hockey XVIII (All Non-Jackets Hockey talk in here)

[Dr. Fire]

Man, this came out of nowhere:

The Hurricanes have, however, finally increased season ticket sales for this coming season after six of declines, so that's something to highlight to potential buyers. But the column also floats the idea that the league might only expand to Las Vegas so that the Canes can be purchased and moved to Quebec.

Shoot, I sure can't wait for that weekly discussion.

Boy, it seems like just yesterday we ever so briefly weren't worried about the ownership situation for a team in a non-traditional market, doesn't it? Well, that was a nice little run we had there. And it makes a lot of sense, then, that the league is so furiously pushing all this...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-p...-and-crosby--canes-on-the-move-202101139.html

Now this is complete speculation on the part of the articles authors, and given Bettman's previous stances on team relocation I don't think this makes sense or will ever happen. The article link is below.

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/luke-decock/article32357781.html

The thing that caught my eye in the article, and if you remember was the same thing that had plagued Nashville when they had their issues, was this:

There remains a bright future. Waddell said that even though suite sales and corporate sponsorships are essentially flat, he expects revenue to grow this season and the season-ticket base to increase for the first time in six years, thanks to a ticket sales staff that grew from nine to 32 people since Waddell was hired last year

In my mind, considering the horrible predictions on how the team will fare in the standings this season, Waddell's prediction that revenue will grow may be a bit overly optimistic. And, once again, the major importance of corporate sponsorships rears it's ugly head.

In my mind, if a non-traditional team were to move to Quebec, so that Las Vegas and eventually Seattle could be expanded to to even out the conferences, then the Panthers would make more sense. But at least the Panthers are trying to get better while the Canes are dead in the water.

Strange times, these.

Click to read more...

 

[CBJx614]

Personally I think the panthers have a bright future and if the lightning and the panthers can build a real rivalry formed in the playoffs it would do wonders for hockey in Florida. I have no problem with the Canes moving to QC and then expanding to Vegas and Seattle/Portland

 

[CBJWerenski8]

I don't see any teams moving without a huge fight from the NHL.

 

[Mayor Bee]

I don't see any teams moving without a huge fight from the NHL.

I can't believe anyone on this team's board, of all places, is espousing relocation of any team.

 

[Fro]

I can't believe anyone on this team's board, of all places, is espousing relocation of any team.

ABU?

Anyone
But
Us
???

 

[major major]

I can't believe anyone on this team's board, of all places, is espousing relocation of any team.

Just curious, what are the conditions under which you would be fine with relocating a team? Is there a number of fans that is low enough? Say 3000 per game?

 

[Viqsi]

Just curious, what are the conditions under which you would be fine with relocating a team?

Can't speak for Bee, but for me, there aren't any. I can sort of understand it if things got that bad, but that doesn't make me "fine with it".

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

http://www.tsn.ca/hhof-coach-arbour-passes-away-1.352204

RIP Al Arbour.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Just curious, what are the conditions under which you would be fine with relocating a team? Is there a number of fans that is low enough? Say 3000 per game?

None.

The spiteful part of me says that I'd love to see all "traditional" teams relocated using the same criteria that their media and fans use toward "non-traditional", while "non-traditional" gets every excuse (no matter how flagrantly moronic) the same way that "traditional" has. But I'm not that spiteful...not that I'll openly admit, anyway.

 

[db2011]

None.

The spiteful part of me says that I'd love to see all "traditional" teams relocated using the same criteria that their media and fans use toward "non-traditional", while "non-traditional" gets every excuse (no matter how flagrantly moronic) the same way that "traditional" has. But I'm not that spiteful...not that I'll openly admit, anyway.

I agree with you word for word, but I haven't seen anyone on this board "espousing" ( your word) relocation.

 

[major major]

I agree with you word for word, but I haven't seen anyone on this board "espousing" ( your word) relocation.

Oh I do. I would be pleased if the Panthers and Coyotes headed north to bigger fanbases. I could make a straightforward utilitarian argument for it, but i won't bother. There are no conditions which make it acceptable to folks here.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Oh I do. I would be pleased if the Panthers and Coyotes headed north to bigger fanbases. I could make a straightforward utilitarian argument for it, but i won't bother. There are no conditions which make it acceptable to folks here.

I'll second the motion.

It's not a question of if these teams move, it's a matter of when. Both have been given ample time to develop their respective markets and neither is even remotely close to making it work.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Why are market bases so important for Northern American folks? Or that some other team in the league is financially well off (as long as someone pays the bills)? It ain't like you are gonna get cheaper tickets out of it or anything like that...

I don't know if it is actually wise to fight fire with fire when in any league of 30 teams there is always some kind of bottom organization about to burn down, no matter what you do. This has always been and this will always be.

 

[blahblah]

None.

The spiteful part of me says that I'd love to see all "traditional" teams relocated using the same criteria that their media and fans use toward "non-traditional", while "non-traditional" gets every excuse (no matter how flagrantly moronic) the same way that "traditional" has. But I'm not that spiteful...not that I'll openly admit, anyway.

I'm not sure how anyone can definitively say that they couldn't, at least, understand the potential "need" to move a franchise for it's financial stability. Yes, it's probably symptomatic of an ownership issue; but a lot of these move when ownership changes hands. The NHL seems to prefer keeping the teams in the market if they can so if a franchise moves I figure they've explored all options.

I feel for the Atlanta fans; but it appears to have ended up working out best for the league.

Oh I do. I would be pleased if the Panthers and Coyotes headed north to bigger fanbases. I could make a straightforward utilitarian argument for it, but i won't bother. There are no conditions which make it acceptable to folks here.

I'm not opposed to the movement of a franchise if all options have been explored. To be honest the Arizona franchise has been a drain and an image issue for the NHL. I can't really say the same thing for the Panthers.

While I would feel for the fans of the Arizona fan base in the event of a move, I could see it reaching a point in which it would just be better to move it.

Now Canada really never gave Columbus much of a chance so I'm not all the sympathetic to their desire to get more teams in Canada. I love Canada for the most part, but their fan base can be far worse and far more annoying than even Buckeye football fans. Part of the reason I can't stand college football is because of our local fans.

 

[Jaxs]

Fans of other teams that had gone through the cycle of horrible that the Jackets did, saying that the Jackets need to move or be disbanded was what really irritated me.

In recent years while the Jackets couldn't manage their way out of the basement, in many threads on the main pages of this site, certain Pens and Blackhawk fans that so conveniently forgot how not even five or six years before were drawing 5000 to 8000 a game, saying how the Central Ohio market was terrible. Many examples can be found from fans of teams north of the border saying the Jackets should move to Quebec City. All of those fans were right about how bad the Jackets were, but the need to move the team was over the top.

I will never say a team has to move, that will be up to the owners and league. I will say that the optics of a team in a playoff race that doesn't draw well is a concern, Coyotes and Panthers.

 

[Viqsi]

When Mr. Mac (z''l) passed away, do y'all know what the relocationists were doing?

They were celebrating. CELEBRATING. Openly gleeful at his death, because they thought that would mean the team would move. Hell, some of the MODERATORS joined in! And they got nastily dismissive and insulting towards any Jackets fans (or fans of any other teams, for that matter) who asked them, even at bare minimum, to have a little respect for the dead.

They're scum. They're all scum, and they deserve nothing, and any Jackets fan who would dare think about being considered among their number should be deeply ashamed at the prospect of joining in with such sociopathic ghouls.

 

[blahblah]

I will never say a team has to move, that will be up to the owners and league. I will say that the optics of a team in a playoff race that doesn't draw well is a concern, Coyotes and Panthers.

Arizona has been hugely consistent with it's numbers over the years. Frankly I'm not sure with their current situation they'll ever get more than about 15k at home in a season no matter how well they are doing.

As far as the Panthers, they are not far removed from a couple of seasons at over 16.5k per game. There were remarkably consistent around that 15k total for years. Last year was a massive drop off from the norm.

Neither are great totals; but we I don't think we can claim any type of superiority. There is no question that the fan base in Florida has been pretty beat up and it's going to take some work to get those fans back.

 

[blahblah]

When Mr. Mac (z''l) passed away, do y'all know what the relocationists were doing?

They were celebrating. CELEBRATING. Openly gleeful at his death, because they thought that would mean the team would move. Hell, some of the MODERATORS joined in! And they got nastily dismissive and insulting towards any Jackets fans (or fans of any other teams, for that matter) who asked them, even at bare minimum, to have a little respect for the dead.

They're scum. They're all scum, and they deserve nothing, and any Jackets fan who would dare think about being considered among their number should be deeply ashamed at the prospect of joining in with such sociopathic ghouls.

lol, tell us how you really feel. I'll be honest, I haven't met those you have called out for they probably didn't post on in CBJ forum(s). At least I can't remember them. However, there are those that have called and continue to call for our team to relocate or contract. Those need a good public flogging.

 

[major major]

My principle criteria for where to put hockey teams seems to be the question: is the town in question a frozen ****hole for at least part of the year? Columbus passes. And I don't identify with Coyotes fans when they're threatened with relocation, the way some Jackets fans do.

 

[Sore Loser]

I won't speak openly advocating relocation, but it's hard to not make the relocation argument in the case of the Phoenix Coyotes. Before jumping to conclusions, let me qualify my statement:

To anyone who may not know the full multitude of their situation, the city of Phoenix wouldn't build a hockey compatible arena to keep the Coyotes in the city of Phoenix, so the team located its headquarters to Glendale. I know some people from the area, and the general consensus was that this screwed over most of the fanbase -- Glendale is a ridiculous drive from the Scottsdale area, where a big part of the fanbase lives, which basically alienated them from being season ticket holders. It would be like putting the Blue Jackets in Dayton. Would anyone on this board spend thousands of dollars on season tickets with the knowledge that it's a two hour round trip 41 times a year? And that's with the hopes that traffic isn't bad...

Now, as if that weren't enough, the city of Glendale is now trying to weasel out of the agreement they signed to keep the team in the Phoenix area. They even started scheduling other events to take place over the course of this season (which have since been cancelled, court proceedings and all). Why am I not against relocating this team? Glendale doesn't want them any longer, and the fans don't want them in Glendale any longer. The city of Phoenix has expressed interest in building an arena right in downtown Phoenix, in hopes to keep them around ... if that happens, then I think it absolutely makes sense to keep the team there. I do consider that relocation personally, since it makes sense for the fans in the area ... so relocate them back to Phoenix.

But, why keep a team in a city (Glendale) that doesn't want them, and the fans don't have any interest in driving to? The difference between this situation and the one of the Blue Jackets is vast and I really don't think you can compare the two. The Blue Jacket attendance suffered because the team was horrible for so many years. We are all seeing the resurgence of fans at Nationwide Arena now that the team is improving, and nobody here should be afraid of seeing the Jackets leave. Basically and simply put: Columbus is in a far better situation than the Glendale Coyotes. The city of Columbus and the fans want to keep the team in Columbus. The same can't be said for the Coyotes.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Why are market bases so important for Northern American folks? Or that some other team in the league is financially well off (as long as someone pays the bills)? It ain't like you are gonna get cheaper tickets out of it or anything like that...

I don't know if it is actually wise to fight fire with fire when in any league of 30 teams there is always some kind of bottom organization about to burn down, no matter what you do. This has always been and this will always be.

It's limited to North American hockey. Trust me, you never hear "So, uh, slow news day in the NFL. Let's talk about who doesn't deserve to have their team."

 

[Mayor Bee]

I'll second the motion.

It's not a question of if these teams move, it's a matter of when. Both have been given ample time to develop their respective markets and neither is even remotely close to making it work.

In 19 seasons, Phoenix has made it past the first round of the playoffs one time.

In 21 seasons, Florida has made it past the first round of the playoffs one time (and made it to the playoffs at all just four times).

Each has missed the playoffs the last three seasons, with no end in sight. They're not contending this year, they're not contending next year.

I believe that we can excuse the locals for exercising a modicum of good taste by refusing to spend a few thousand dollars a year to watch a bad team flounder around.

Just like these people in this "non-hockey market" did:

 

[Mayor Bee]

For Arizona/Phoenix, it's not really like having the arena in Dayton. It's more like Canal Winchester: most people live clear on the opposite side of the metro area.

So they leave their downtown jobs, head home to change and maybe get something to eat, then head all the way back past their starting point (downtown) to watch the game, then head all the way back across the area home. And that's to watch a team that finished second from the bottom a year ago.

It's no different than expecting a bunch of people in our area during the MacLean years to leave downtown, go home to Dublin, then go all the way down to Canal Winchester for a game, then back home. All to watch Geoff Platt playing on the second line with Jaroslav Balastik...

It doesn't matter at this point anyway. They'll move back into a joint arena downtown with the Suns in the next three years, and we'll never have to worry about this issue again.

 

[Sore Loser]

For Arizona/Phoenix, it's not really like having the arena in Dayton. It's more like Canal Winchester: most people live clear on the opposite side of the metro area.

So they leave their downtown jobs, head home to change and maybe get something to eat, then head all the way back past their starting point (downtown) to watch the game, then head all the way back across the area home. And that's to watch a team that finished second from the bottom a year ago.

It's no different than expecting a bunch of people in our area during the MacLean years to leave downtown, go home to Dublin, then go all the way down to Canal Winchester for a game, then back home. All to watch Geoff Platt playing on the second line with Jaroslav Balastik...

It doesn't matter at this point anyway. They'll move back into a joint arena downtown with the Suns in the next three years, and we'll never have to worry about this issue again.

The big difference being, the Phoenix area is very spread out ... other than that, you basically make the same point I do.

And to the highlighted point, I think you and I agree that this is the best outcome for all parties involved. So in a roundabout way ... we agree?

 

[db2011]

Oh I do. I would be pleased if the Panthers and Coyotes headed north to bigger fanbases. I could make a straightforward utilitarian argument for it, but i won't bother. There are no conditions which make it acceptable to folks here.

I'll second the motion.

It's not a question of if these teams move, it's a matter of when. Both have been given ample time to develop their respective markets and neither is even remotely close to making it work.

well looks like I'm wrong again, there are people here who espouse relocation. I don't agree with you two, though. As a fan of teams that are no good, and as a fan of small market teams who lives in a big market, I find the tethering of a team's value to revenue and fanbase-size pretty uninspiring. I'm also a fan of a team that relocated and it really, really sucked.

It happens, but to advocate it, especially when you're not trying to land the team for your own town but just want to take it away from someone and give it to someone else, is callous.