Arena Football League relaunching with 16 teams in 2024

[famicommander]

Way back in the pre-David Baker days, the AFL ran two leagues. I’m curious if this league will even be at the old AF2 level

The IFL and NAL aren't close to af2 level and it's extremely doubtful the new league will be either.

If af2 level football were sustainable as a national enterprise, AFL 2.0 (which was essentially af2 with a few former AFL markets duct taped onto it) would not have died in the first place.

 

[MMC]

 

[famicommander]

It has been confirmed that the St. Louis team will play in the Family Arena in St. Charles rather than the Enterprise Center in downtown St. Louis. Family Arena seats 9,755 for football.

So yeah, at best this is going to just be another IFL/NAL.

 

[famicommander]

Just in case anyone was still enteraining the notion that these clowns are legit:

Arena Football League Relaunch Comes As Surprise To Cities That Will Allegedly Have Teams | Defector

Officials with the Arena Football League, which went belly-up in 2008, and again in 2019, announced on July 18 that the league would return to play in the spring of 2024. “We are extremely proud to share the initial markets that will serve as the foundation of the new era of the Arena Football...

defector.com

 

[GindyDraws]

It has been confirmed that the St. Louis team will play in the Family Arena in St. Charles rather than the Enterprise Center in downtown St. Louis. Family Arena seats 9,755 for football.

So yeah, at best this is going to just be another IFL/NAL.

That's an insult to the IFL. At least they have a television deal.

This league has shown they have no idea what they are doing based on the number of markets that were blindsided by the announcement.

 

[famicommander]

That's an insult to the IFL. At least they have a television deal.

This league has shown they have no idea what they are doing based on the number of markets that were blindsided by the announcement.

The IFL is still a clownshoes operation. They're just the least clowney of all the clownshoes indoor leagues.

The original AFL (1987-2008) was several orders of magnitude better than AFL 2.0 (2010-2017). AFL 2.0 was orders of magnitude better than AFL 3.0 (2018-2019). AFL 3.0 sucked hard but it was still head and shoulders above the IFL.

It just goes to show you how far the sport has fallen.

 

[MMC]

The IFL is still a clownshoes operation. They're just the least clowney of all the clownshoes indoor leagues.

The original AFL (1987-2008) was several orders of magnitude better than AFL 2.0 (2010-2017). AFL 2.0 was orders of magnitude better than AFL 3.0 (2018-2019). AFL 3.0 sucked hard but it was still head and shoulders above the IFL.

It just goes to show you how far the sport has fallen.

As someone who knows nothing about arena football what are you basing this off of?

 

[famicommander]

As someone who knows nothing about arena football what are you basing this off of?

The real AFL actually paid their players. Guys were making 75K on average in the mid 2000s. Modern leagues don't even pay 500 bucks a week.

The real AFL had TV deals with NBC and ESPN. Now the IFL can barely get their championship game on bottom tier cable networks.

The AFL played mostly in NHL and NBA venues. The IFL title game was just played in front of about 2000 people in an AHL barn in the burbs.

The AFL had owners like Jerry Jones, Arthur Blank, Stan Kroenke/Pat Bowlen/John Elway, Rob Jaworski... Pro football owners and players with real money. The IFL has a couple big money guys but it's mostly local real estate dudes and car salesmen types.

The AFL had teams in NY, Chicago, LA, Denver, DC, San Jose, Philly, Tampa, Atlanta... The IFL has teams in Moline IL, Sioux Falls SD, and Frisco TX.

 

[Lions67]

Arena football is a joke. Absolute garbage.

 

[willy702]

There is clearly demand for all this football and the NFL just sits back and grabs some popcorn for it all. There was the USFL, then CFL expanded to US, then World League in Europe which actually was good because the NFL was involved. Since then all the pretenders in spring have come out along with Arena. There is a market for it all and someday the NFL will be involved and make it work. Until then it seems they enjoy laughing at these investors burning tons of money at it while enjoying the lower end player sourcing and development it offers.

 

[famicommander]

Arena football is a joke. Absolute garbage.

It's a great sport, it has just fallen into the hands of incompetent boobs and small time dreamers.

But the original AFL had 20 seasons of great football before the real estate crisis tanked the league in 2008. The National Lacrosse League barely survived it as well, but now they're thriving (the Avs, Sabres, Flames, Canucks, Flyers, Brooklyn Nets all share majority owners with NLL teams and the OKC Thunder minority owner has one as well).

Ultimately what did the original AFL in, besides the real estate bubble, was that they let player salaries balloon too quickly (probably to compete with NFL Europe and the CFL) and then started relying on expansion fees to fund operations. Obviously that's not sustainable over a long period of time, as the league never made it past 19 teams.

 

[famicommander]

There is clearly demand for all this football and the NFL just sits back and grabs some popcorn for it all. There was the USFL, then CFL expanded to US, then World League in Europe which actually was good because the NFL was involved. Since then all the pretenders in spring have come out along with Arena. There is a market for it all and someday the NFL will be involved and make it work. Until then it seems they enjoy laughing at these investors burning tons of money at it while enjoying the lower end player sourcing and development it offers.

The fact that all these leagues either keep dying or can't pay a living wage should tell you that there is, in fact, not any demand.

I will be absolutely shocked if either of the USFL 2.0 or XFL 3.0 is still in operation in 5 years.

The CFL USA expansion was a disaster.
The XFL was a disaster twice. Third disaster currently in progress.
The UFL was a disaster.
The AAF was a disaster.
The USFL was a financial disaster despite a high level of play, and their second disaster is in progress.

The Arena Football League and NFL Europe were the only NFL alternatives besides the CFL that have ever managed to maintain a high level of play over an extended period of time, and even they both went under. Every other league either straight up died in 5 seasons or less, sucked too bad to be considered a real competitor anyway, or got absorbed by the NFL.

 

[DanielPlainview]

David Baker ran the league into the ground. He over-promised ROI (how the AFL got the TV deals and big name owners to begin with) then tanked the league trying make it a reality. Moving the championship to Vegas was the final straw. The recession didn't help but the league was in trouble regardless.

 

[DanielPlainview]

The fact that all these leagues either keep dying or can't pay a living wage should tell you that there is, in fact, not any demand.

I will be absolutely shocked if either of the USFL 2.0 or XFL 3.0 is still in operation in 5 years.

The CFL USA expansion was a disaster.
The XFL was a disaster twice. Third disaster currently in progress.
The UFL was a disaster.
The AAF was a disaster.
The USFL was a financial disaster despite a high level of play, and their second disaster is in progress.

The Arena Football League and NFL Europe were the only NFL alternatives besides the CFL that have ever managed to maintain a high level of play over an extended period of time, and even they both went under. Every other league either straight up died in 5 seasons or less, sucked too bad to be considered a real competitor anyway, or got absorbed by the NFL.

Doesn't look that way.

The XFL was actually doing quite well the second time. Covid killed it. The first season of the new league did pretty well in TV viewership.

The USFL seems to be pretty stable with FOX owning it. I'd expect attendance and such to improve once they have the teams in actual home fields.

 

[famicommander]

Doesn't look that way.

The XFL was actually doing quite well the second time. Covid killed it. The first season of the new league did pretty well in TV viewership.

The USFL seems to be pretty stable with FOX owning it. I'd expect attendance and such to improve once they have the teams in actual home fields.

The XFL was not doing quite well the second time. COVID was the excuse they used to bail. If it had done well they would have brought it back themselves instead of selling it off for pennies on the dollar. Tons of low level leagues survived COVID. If the XFL had been viable it would have as well.

And these types of projects tend to be reevaluated after the third year. There's no way either the XFL or USFL are profitable right now. After year 3, if that's still the case, I'd bet dollars to donuts that one or both leagues folds up shop.

 

[ponder719]

And these types of projects tend to be reevaluated after the third year. There's no way either the XFL or USFL are profitable right now. After year 3, if that's still the case, I'd bet dollars to donuts that one or both leagues folds up shop.

I can't speak to the XFL, I don't follow it, and won't unless they add a Philadelphia team, but while the USFL could potentially fold, it doesn't make sense to me. It's owned by Fox, lock, stock, and barrel, and is a relatively cheap way to generate a great deal of content for their network (split with NBC at the moment, but this is the last year of the current media rights deal, and it's possible that doesn't get extended.)

To me, the biggest flaw for the USFL is that they aren't in all 8 cities yet. I would love to get season tickets, but I'll be damned if I fly to Detroit to watch the Stars, so they need to get their butts back to Philly (Or, if they have to do hub cities, pairing Pittsburgh and Michigan, and finding somewhere in the rough vicinity of Trenton or Princeton for the Stars and Generals, would at least entice me to go see one or two. That should be roughly equidistant between where the two teams would hope to end up.) Once they have the opportunity to build up a proper local fan base, we can see how the league is really doing from that perspective.

 

[famicommander]

I can't speak to the XFL, I don't follow it, and won't unless they add a Philadelphia team, but while the USFL could potentially fold, it doesn't make sense to me. It's owned by Fox, lock, stock, and barrel, and is a relatively cheap way to generate a great deal of content for their network (split with NBC at the moment, but this is the last year of the current media rights deal, and it's possible that doesn't get extended.)

To me, the biggest flaw for the USFL is that they aren't in all 8 cities yet. I would love to get season tickets, but I'll be damned if I fly to Detroit to watch the Stars, so they need to get their butts back to Philly (Or, if they have to do hub cities, pairing Pittsburgh and Michigan, and finding somewhere in the rough vicinity of Trenton or Princeton for the Stars and Generals, would at least entice me to go see one or two. That should be roughly equidistant between where the two teams would hope to end up.) Once they have the opportunity to build up a proper local fan base, we can see how the league is really doing from that perspective.

In 2022 the USFL averaged 658,000 viewers per game with 21/40 games on network television.
In 2023 the USFL averaged 604,425 viewers per game with 26/40 games on network television.

The USFL is not growing. Despite a better TV package (more games on network TV, regular timeslots, vastly increased promotion) in year 2 the numbers declined. Postseason semifinal viewership was also down year over year, while the title game numbers were down by about 400,000 viewers vs last year. If the numbers decline again in 2023 they're going to decide to stop losing money on it.

 

[tucker3434]

You’d think a big-offense version of football in the AC during summer would do at least decently. But they seem to be avoiding the southeast.

 

[DanielPlainview]

I can't speak to the XFL, I don't follow it, and won't unless they add a Philadelphia team, but while the USFL could potentially fold, it doesn't make sense to me. It's owned by Fox, lock, stock, and barrel, and is a relatively cheap way to generate a great deal of content for their network (split with NBC at the moment, but this is the last year of the current media rights deal, and it's possible that doesn't get extended.)

To me, the biggest flaw for the USFL is that they aren't in all 8 cities yet. I would love to get season tickets, but I'll be damned if I fly to Detroit to watch the Stars, so they need to get their butts back to Philly (Or, if they have to do hub cities, pairing Pittsburgh and Michigan, and finding somewhere in the rough vicinity of Trenton or Princeton for the Stars and Generals, would at least entice me to go see one or two. That should be roughly equidistant between where the two teams would hope to end up.) Once they have the opportunity to build up a proper local fan base, we can see how the league is really doing from that perspective.

Yes it was doing well. McMahon washing his hands of it isn’t indicative of anything other than Covid screwed up his business model

 

[famicommander]

Yes it was doing well. McMahon washing his hands of it isn’t indicative of anything other than Covid screwed up his business model

That's ridiculous.

Leagues that survived COVID without a bankruptcy:
WNBA
NWSL
NLL
AHL
ECHL
G-League
IFL
NAL
CIF

etc.

If the XFL were viable McMahon would've brought it back without hesitation. If the XFL were viable someone would have paid more than 15 million dollars to buy it out of bankruptcy.

What happened is the XFL came back, did marginally better than the AAF, lost a ton of money, and Vince saw an out with COVID where he could shut it down and people would give him the excuse for it failing. Rather than it just failing like everything else the man has ever attempted outside of WWE (XFL 1.0, his body building federation. WWE Studios, various retail and restaurant establishments, etc).

 

[StreetHawk]

Interesting to see where they opt to locate teams. Will it be in the larger markets that were around back in the days with Philly, Denver, etc. which use NBA/NHL arenas? Or are they opting for smaller cities and venues that would seat 10K for AHL?

What drives revenue, the fans in the arena or TV? They played during the era of artificial turf. Now, they have the fieldturf stuff. Are they planning on use that or the old school turf?

Have to find a time of the year which makes sense for arena availabilty and tv audience. Guess, another summer type league from May to mid May onwards, when the NHL and NBA are down to the Conference finals and only 4 arenas may be unavailable.

 

[MMC]

Interesting to see where they opt to locate teams. Will it be in the larger markets that were around back in the days with Philly, Denver, etc. which use NBA/NHL arenas? Or are they opting for smaller cities and venues that would seat 10K for AHL?

What drives revenue, the fans in the arena or TV? They played during the era of artificial turf. Now, they have the fieldturf stuff. Are they planning on use that or the old school turf?

Have to find a time of the year which makes sense for arena availabilty and tv audience. Guess, another summer type league from May to mid May onwards, when the NHL and NBA are down to the Conference finals and only 4 arenas may be unavailable.

They already announced the markets

 

[StreetHawk]

They already announced the markets

Thanks . Found it.
Seems like only 6/16 are to be on nba or nhl arenas.
Nashville, Denver, Philadelphia, San Antonio, Orlando, st Paul Min. Will be interesting to see if these larger arenas get filled.

 

[famicommander]

Thanks . Found it.
Seems like only 6/16 are to be on nba or nhl arenas.
Nashville, Denver, Philadelphia, San Antonio, Orlando, st Paul Min. Will be interesting to see if these larger arenas get filled.

You're putting the cart way ahead of the horse here. Most of these cities/venues have come out and said they haven't been contacted by anybody from the league and they're allegedly launching 16 teams by February. We don't have venue leases, we don't have coaches, we don't have owners, we don't have rosters, we don't have team names, we don't have anybody taking season ticket deposits. Right now we have a list of 16 cities and nothing else.

I'll be shocked if more than 5 or 6 teams actually play, if any, and most of the ones that do will be transfers from one of the other alphabet soup minor league indoor operations like the AWFC or the NAL.

 

[DanielPlainview]

That's ridiculous.

Leagues that survived COVID without a bankruptcy:
WNBA
NWSL
NLL
AHL
ECHL
G-League
IFL
NAL
CIF

etc.

If the XFL were viable McMahon would've brought it back without hesitation. If the XFL were viable someone would have paid more than 15 million dollars to buy it out of bankruptcy.

What happened is the XFL came back, did marginally better than the AAF, lost a ton of money, and Vince saw an out with COVID where he could shut it down and people would give him the excuse for it failing. Rather than it just failing like everything else the man has ever attempted outside of WWE (XFL 1.0, his body building federation. WWE Studios, various retail and restaurant establishments, etc).

You're being ridiculous. The league was getting good TV viewership and decent attendance. That's good for a first year league. McMahon has his reasons for abandoning it, but it wasn't because his second effort was failing. If it were a lost cause, no one would have bothered bringing it back