Are we underrating Johnny Bower and the AHL in the 06 era?

[ImporterExporter]

So I've been poking around some information on Johnny Bower (he's my goalie in the ATD this year) and have been diving into his AHL exploits, which are to be sure, impressive. But what has really been eye opening is just how much talent the AHL had coming and going between the end of WWII and the late 50's.

Consider:

Johnny Bower – AHL Hall of Fame

In 1949-50, Bower became the Barons’ number-one goaltender, and he would go on to backstop Cleveland to two more titles in 1951 and 1953 before finally getting his first taste of the National Hockey League. He spent the entire 1953-54 season with the New York Rangers, but returned to the AHL and continued his dominance, winning three consecutive Les Cunningham Awards as the AHL’s most valuable player in 1956, 1957 and 1958

Bower won another Calder Cup with the Providence Reds in 1956, led the AHL in wins a total of five times, and was named to six postseason AHL All-Star Teams, including five first-team selections. He also won the Harry “Hap” Holmes Award (then given to the goaltender with the lowest goals-against average in the league) on three occasions. On Oct. 23, 1956, in his first of two career All-Star Game appearances, Bower made 47 saves as the Reds shut out a team of AHL All-Stars, 4-0.

Bower remains the winningest goaltender in American Hockey League history, with a remarkable record of 359-174-57 to his credit. His 45 career shutouts stood as the AHL record until 2016, and his league mark for longest streak without allowing a goal, shutting out his opponents for a span of 249:51, stood for 55 years until it was surpassed in 2012.

3 straight league MVP's is a major accomplishment, especially for a goalie. And he did this with Harry Lumley as his main competition for league honors in net in 56/57 and you can see the plethora of talents below that spanned the mid 40's through late 50's.

It's pretty clear he's the greatest goalie in the history of the AHL.

As far as I can tell he's the only player to be inducted by both the AHL, and NHL. Bun Cook is in as a player in the NHL And coach in the AHL. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Depending on how we view this stellar career in the AHL, alongside with his already well documented time in Toronto, is there room at all for him to rise slightly in an all time sense? The statistical breakdowns of his career were extremely favorable and it's hard to argue his postseason resume as the crown jewel of his career.

So I went back and re skimmed the 2 rounds Bower was up for discussion and almost zero time was spent highlighting this long time period of great play for JB. @DN28 touched on it briefly but otherwise it was ignored and that seems like a notable oversight.

2 of my favorite quotes by folks who knew a thing or 2 about Bower:

Howie Meeker said:

"Johnny Bower was the best standup goaltender I'd ever seen, even better than Turk Broda," former Maple Leafs forward Howie Meeker said on the "Legends of Hockey" TV series. "He played his angles better than anybody else, he stood on his feet better than anybody else, and he stopped the puck very, very well."

Jean Beliveau said:

"Johnny Bower was the hardest goalie to deke in the entire league," Montreal Canadiens center Jean Beliveau wrote in his autobiography. "He would simply refuse to go for a move. As a result, he was difficult to score against on a breakaway. He positioned himself in such a way that he drew you toward him almost as if you were moving down a funnel.

Notable players who were in AHL during Bower's career there:

Here's a link to see everyone (there are many other depth players who had at least a year in the NHL that I didn't openly list below)
Elite Prospects - AHL Stats All-time totals

Glenn Hall (Indy Capitols) - 51/52 (68 games)

Terry Sawchuk (Indy) - 48/49 and 49/50 (128 games)

Pierre Pilote (Buffalo Bison) - 51/52 through 55/56 (236 games)

Andy Bathgate (Cleveland Barons) - 53/54 (36 games)

Tim Horton (Pittsburgh Hornets) - 49-50 through 51/52 (192 games)

Marcel Pronovost (Capitols) 51/52 (34 games)

Allan Stanley (Providence Reds) - 47-48 and 48-49 (91 games)

Bryan Hextall (Barons/Lions) - 48/49 (57 games)

Gus Mortson (Bisons) 58/59 and 59/50 (101 games)

Harry Lumley (Capitols, Bisons, Reds) - 43/44 and 44-45 (73 games) 56-57

through 58-59 (138 games)

George Armstrong (Hornets) 50/51 and 51/52 (121 games)

Joe Klukay (Hornets) 55/56 (47 games)

Don Marshall (Bisons) 53/54 (70 games)

Harry Watson (Bisons) - 57/58 (52 games)

Leo Boivin (Hornets) 51/52 (30 games)

Don McKenney (Bears) 53/54 (54 games)

Fleming Mackell (Hornets) 47/48 through 49/50 (150 games) 60/61 (Aces,
62 games)

Sid Smith (Hornets) 46/47 through 48/49 (121 games)

Pat Egan (Reds) 51/52 through 54/55 (223 games)

Kenny Wharram (Bisons) 54/55 through 57/58 (244 games)

Gaye Stewart (Bisons) - 53/54 and 54/55 (130 games)

Jerry Toppazzini (Bears) 51/52 (54 games)

Camille Henry (Reds) - 55/56 and 56/57 (88 games)

Fred Shero (Mohawks/Barons) - 50/51 through 54/55 (250 games)

Cal Gardner (Indians) - 57/58 (69 games)

Tod Sloan (Hornets/Barons) 46/47 through 49/50 (222 games)

Andy Hebenton (Mohawks) - 49/50 (44 games)

Bob Armstrong (Bears, Indians) 51/52 Bears 67 games, 57/58
Indians 26 games

George "Red" Sullivan (Bears) - 49/50 and 50/51 (121 games) then 52/53 and 53/54 (105 games)

Carl Liscombe (Reds) 46/47 through 49/50 (256 games)

Bill Juzda (Hornets) 52/53 (59 games)

Buddy O'Connor (Mohawks) - 51/52 (65 games)

Paul Ronty (Bears) 46/47 and 47/48 (95 games)

Pete Conacher (Bisons) 55/56 through 57/58 (126 games)

Johnny Peirson (Bears) 46/47 and 47/48 (62 games)

Bronco Horvath (Indians, Warriors, Americans) 50/51 through 53/54
(Indians/Warriors 192 games) then 56/57 (Americans 56 games)

Floyd Smith (Bears, Indians) 55/56 and 56/57 Bears 90 games, 57/58 through
61/62 Indians 318 games

Herb Cain (Bears) 46/47 through 49/50 (198 games)

Wally Hergesheimer (Barons/Bisons) 50/51 (Barons 70 games) and 57/58 (Bisons 70 games)

Pentti Lund (Bears) - 47/48 (68 games)

Pete Babando (Bisons) - 53/54 through 56/57 (214 games)

Eddie Kullman (Reds) 48/49 and 49/50 (110 games)

Jimmy Bartlett (Reds) 55/56 through 57/58 (172 games)

Bill Ezinicki (Hornets) 50/51

Jim Henry (Ramblers/Capitols) - 45/46 through 47/48 (96 games) and 50/51 (Capitols 58 games)

Grant Warwick - 49/50 through 51/52 (157 games)

Ken Smith (Bears Hornets Reds) 45/46 (27 games) 50/51 through 56/57 (293 games)

Jim McFadden (Bisons) - 46/47 (31 games)

Danny Lewicki (Hornets) - 51/52 through 53/54 (122 games)

Leo Labine (Bears) - 51/52 and 52/53 (69 games)

Joe Carveth (Caps/Barons) 50/51 and 51/52 (77 games)

Gary Ehman (Indians) 56/57 and 57/58 (132 games)

Bob Chrystal (Barons) - 51/52 and 52/53 (131 games)

Parker McDonald (Hornets) - 53/54 (70 games) and 55/56 (58 games)

Frank Eddolls (Bisons) - 45/46 and 46/47 (63 games) and 51/52 through 53/54 (125 games)

Bob Bailey (Hornets/Barons/Bisons/Aces) 54/55 through 56/57 (114 games)

Jim McIntyre (Bears) - 50/51 (64 games) and 53/54 (44 games)

Lorne Ferguson (Bears/Bisons) - 52/53 and 53/54 (134 games)

Gerry Couture (Capitols) - 46/47 and 47/48 (76 games) then 51/52 (47 games)

Adam Brown (Bears) 51/52 and 52/53 (92 games)

Lee Fogolin (Capitols) - 47-48 and 48/49 (85 games)

Steve Black (St Louis Flyers) 47/48 and 48/49 (120 games)

Dave Creighton (Hershey Bears, Rochester Americans, Baltimore Clippers
Providence Reds) - Bears 48/49 50/51 51-52 (71 games) Americans 58/59 59/60
60/61 61/62 (230 games)

Zellio Toppazini (Bears) 48/49 through 50/51 (95 games) Reds 52/53 through
63/64 (A LOT)

Alex Shibicky (Reds/Ramblers) 45/46 and 46/47 (71 games)

Ray Timgren (Hornets) 51/52 through 55/56 (192 games)

Ed Slowinski (Bisons/Indians) 53/54 through 56/57 (248 games)

Dunc Fisher (Bears) 52/53 through 50/60 (511 games)


AHL ALL-STAR DATA - 1947/48 THROUGH 1957/58

Bower had unanimous 1st team AS nods over Lumley (56-57) and Gerry McNeil (57-58) not to mention his first team AS nod in 1952 came with Glenn Hall playing a full season with Indianapolis. These are significant bullet points IMO.


1947-48:

A handful of very recognizable names

1948-49:

1949-50:

Sawchuk 1st team AS

Bower honorable mention, narrowly out of 2nd place.

1950-51:

Bower 2nd team along with Marcel Pronovost (Tim Horton is tucked in the honorable mention section)

Some solid names on there, capable NHL talent

1951-52:

Bower 1st team AS along with Tim Horton

Glenn Hall played a full season but was only 22-40 for the Indianapolis Capitols, and does not appear to receive any votes. Still, it's important to note his presence in the league.

1952-53:

Bower a 1st teamer

1953-54:

Bower not in AHL at this time

Good names include Red Sullivan, Gaye Stewart, Emile Francis

1954-55:

Bower not in AHL

1955-56:

Bower first team and you see Pierre Pilote tucked in the honorable mention category

1956-57:

Bower unanimous 1st team choice over Harry Lumley.

1957-58

Bower a unanimous 1st team choice over Gerry McNeil, hardly a no-name goalie.

And here you can see Bowers AS nods.

1st team nod in 51-52 and 52-53, 55/56 through 57/58

Click to read more...

 

[Professor What]

I think I'd be careful so as not to overstate the AHL's strength too much, because I do think the talent pool overall was small compared to today, as rapid expansion would show in the 70s, but yes, I do think that the AHL was a formidable league in the O6 era, simply because there were so few roster spots in the NHL that there were, by necessity, quite a few strong players there. That would have been where most of the new NHL players came from after the 1967 expansion, and while those teams weren't ready to truly compete right away, I think it's only fair to say that the new players in the league fared admirably enough to merit being NHLers.

But if the AHL was a strong league, I think that has to go much more so for goaltenders. We all know that goalies carried a much heavier work load as far as percentage of games played back then, often hitting 100% of games played or very close. So, with just six regular NHL goalies, it was definitely much harder to make the NHL at that position, and there had to be some outstanding netminders in the AHL, with Bower, as you say, being the strongest of that lot. I mean, the guy didn't make it to the NHL at all until his late 20s, and I think he performed pretty admirably for a lacking team in New York in 1953-54. After that, it was five years(!) before he got any significant further playing time, and I think that in itself demonstrates how difficult it was for a goalie to get an NHL job at the time, considering that he was solid in his first season. The fact that he practically immediately established himself as one of the best in the NHL shows it even more strongly. So, yes, the AHL was strong, despite a smaller talent pool than today, nowhere more than in the net.

As for what it says about Bower, I fully believe that you can't really get a feel for him without considering his AHL career. I think the career summary you posted speaks volumes about the level he reached in the AHL and demonstrates what a goalie the NHL was missing out on during those years. I think the NHL was far too slow to embrace expansion, and the fact that there were guys like Bower stuck in the AHL for so long shows that.

 

[Fenway]

One thing we overlook is that while AHL players made less than NHL players back then the difference was not that much.

Back in the early 60's the owner of the Providence Reds Louis Pieri also owned a part of Boston Garden who had bought the Bruins from the Adams family. For several years Pieri would arrange charity games in Providence against the Bruins and Rangers and the Reds won every game.

The Adams family bought the Bruins back after Walter Brown died and Pieri took over the Celtics.

Providence loved that AHL team.

 

[DN28]

So I've been poking around some information on Johnny Bower (he's my goalie in the ATD this year) and have been diving into his AHL exploits, which are to be sure, impressive. But what has really been eye opening is just how much talent the AHL had coming and going between the end of WWII and the late 50's.

Consider:

Johnny Bower – AHL Hall of Fame



3 straight league MVP's is a major accomplishment, especially for a goalie. And he did this with Harry Lumley as his main competition for league honors in net in 56/57 and you can see the plethora of talents below that spanned the mid 40's through late 50's.

It's pretty clear he's the greatest goalie in the history of the AHL.

As far as I can tell he's the only player to be inducted by both the AHL, and NHL. Bun Cook is in as a player in the NHL And coach in the AHL. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Depending on how we view this stellar career in the AHL, alongside with his already well documented time in Toronto, is there room at all for him to rise slightly in an all time sense? The statistical breakdowns of his career were extremely favorable and it's hard to argue his postseason resume as the crown jewel of his career.

So I went back and re skimmed the 2 rounds Bower was up for discussion and almost zero time was spent highlighting this long time period of great play for JB. @DN28 touched on it briefly but otherwise it was ignored and that seems like a notable oversight.

2 of my favorite quotes by folks who knew a thing or 2 about Bower:

Howie Meeker said:


Jean Beliveau said:


Notable players who were in AHL during Bower's career there:

Here's a link to see everyone (there are many other depth players who had at least a year in the NHL that I didn't openly list below)
Elite Prospects - AHL Stats All-time totals

Glenn Hall (Indy Capitols) - 51/52 (68 games)

Terry Sawchuk (Indy) - 48/49 and 49/50 (128 games)

Pierre Pilote (Buffalo Bison) - 51/52 through 55/56 (236 games)

Andy Bathgate (Cleveland Barons) - 53/54 (36 games)

Tim Horton (Pittsburgh Hornets) - 49-50 through 51/52 (192 games)

Marcel Pronovost (Capitols) 51/52 (34 games)

Allan Stanley (Providence Reds) - 47-48 and 48-49 (91 games)

Gus Mortson (Bisons) 58/59 and 59/50 (101 games)

Harry Lumley (Capitols, Bisons, Reds) - 43/44 and 44-45 (73 games) 56-57

through 58-59 (138 games)

George Armstrong (Hornets) 50/51 and 51/52 (121 games)

Joe Klukay (Hornets) 55/56 (47 games)

Don Marshall (Bisons) 53/54 (70 games)

Leo Boivin (Hornets) 51/52 (30 games)

Don McKenney (Bears) 53/54 (54 games)

Fleming Mackell (Hornets) 47/48 through 49/50 (150 games) 60/61 (Aces,
62 games)

Sid Smith (Hornets) 46/47 through 48/49 (121 games)

Pat Egan (Reds) 51/52 through 54/55 (223 games)

Kenny Wharram (Bisons) 54/55 through 57/58 (244 games)

Gaye Stewart (Bisons) - 53/54 and 54/55 (130 games)

Jerry Toppazzini (Bears) 51/52 (54 games)

Camille Henry (Reds) - 55/56 and 56/57 (88 games)

Tod Sloan (Hornets/Barons) 46/47 through 49/50 (222 games)

Bob Armstrong (Bears, Indians) 51/52 Bears 67 games, 57/58
Indians 26 games

George "Red" Sullivan (Bears) - 49/50 and 50/51 (121 games) then 52/53 and 53/54 (105 games)

Carl Liscombe (Reds) 46/47 through 49/50 (256 games)

Paul Ronty (Bears) 46/47 and 47/48 (95 games)

Pete Conacher (Bisons) 55/56 through 57/58 (126 games)

Johnny Peirson (Bears) 46/47 and 47/48 (62 games)

Bronco Horvath (Indians, Warriors, Americans) 50/51 through 53/54
(Indians/Warriors 192 games) then 56/57 (Americans 56 games)

Floyd Smith (Bears, Indians) 55/56 and 56/57 Bears 90 games, 57/58 through
61/62 Indians 318 games

Herb Cain (Bears) 46/47 through 49/50 (198 games)

Jimmy Bartlett (Reds) 55/56 through 57/58 (172 games)

Bill Ezinicki (Hornets) 50/51

Grant Warwick - 49/50 through 51/52 (157 games)

Ken Smith (Bears Hornets Reds) 45/46 (27 games) 50/51 through 56/57 (293 games)

Jim McFadden (Bisons) - 46/47 (31 games)

Danny Lewicki (Hornets) - 51/52 through 53/54 (122 games)

Leo Labine (Bears) - 51/52 and 52/53 (69 games)

Joe Carveth (Caps/Barons) 50/51 and 51/52 (77 games)

Gary Ehman (Indians) 56/57 and 57/58 (132 games)

Bob Bailey (Hornets/Barons/Bisons/Aces) 54/55 through 56/57 (114 games)

Gerry Couture (Capitols) - 46/47 and 47/48 (76 games) then 51/52 (47 games)

Lee Fogolin (Capitols) - 47-48 and 48/49 (85 games)

Steve Black (St Louis Flyers) 47/48 and 48/49 (120 games)

Dave Creighton (Hershey Bears, Rochester Americans, Baltimore Clippers
Providence Reds) - Bears 48/49 50/51 51-52 (71 games) Americans 58/59 59/60
60/61 61/62 (230 games)

Zellio Toppazini (Bears) 48/49 through 50/51 (95 games) Reds 52/53 through
63/64 (A LOT)

Ray Timgren (Hornets) 51/52 through 55/56 (192 games)

Ed Slowinski (Bisons/Indians) 53/54 through 56/57 (248 games)

Dunc Fisher (Bears) 52/53 through 50/60 (511 games)

Good post. I absolutely agree with you that Bower is underrated, and underrated largely due to lack of appreciation for his AHL career.

O6 era AHL deserves a proper recognition. Goalies from O6 era AHL especially.

Do you happen to have a list of AHL All-Star teams? Earliest I could ever find were from wikipedia, from 2013 onwards... Where are those ASTs from 1950s when Bower played?

 

[Pominville Knows]

I believe through the limited movement of goalies back then and aforemost all with him being something of an outlier in his league MVP efforts and all, at least much like someone must have been the worst goalie in the NHL each of those seasons we can ponder over his AHL dominance actually making him perhaps the sixth or even fifth best goalie in the world some of those seasons whilst in the AHL.

 

[Johnny Engine]

I think I'd be careful so as not to overstate the AHL's strength too much, because I do think the talent pool overall was small compared to today, as rapid expansion would show in the 70s, but yes, I do think that the AHL was a formidable league in the O6 era, simply because there were so few roster spots in the NHL that there were, by necessity, quite a few strong players there. That would have been where most of the new NHL players came from after the 1967 expansion, and while those teams weren't ready to truly compete right away, I think it's only fair to say that the new players in the league fared admirably enough to merit being NHLers.

One thing to keep in mind regarding the talent pool in the 70s, is that the end of the sponsorship system meant that none of the new teams had a robust pipeline of players being trained specifically to play roles on their NHL teams, and that the existing teams that adapted poorly to the draft era (I'm looking at you, Toronto Maple Leafs) saw their existing pipelines evaporate. So I think you have 2 separate forces (rapid expansion in both the NHL and WHA on one side, no more sponsorship on the other side), effecting both the supply and demand that led to the inequality of the seventies.

 

[Big Phil]

He was a late bloomer, but not in the classic sense. I think he was a late bloomer in the way a lot of players have been in their careers. He was overlooked. Tim Thomas probably was overlooked at some point in his career as well. Somewhere along the line there should have been a coach who saw something special in him. Different position but Martin St. Louis comes to mind also. Plus, I am not sure the entire backstory but Curtis Joseph probably should have been drafted in the NHL. Unless he really stepped up his game later on, it is hard to imagine a young Curtis Joseph not being noticed. Bower was one of them. Surely he should have been in the NHL on a permanent basis before 1958. Or maybe it was the Rangers. They were incompetent back then. They had Bower and Worsley play full seasons for them early in their careers and then dumped both of them to the minors only to have them backstopped dynasties on different teams.

There could have been some sort of agenda or blacklist to keep Bower out of the NHL though. I know Worsley after he won the Calder asked for a raise and they demoted him to the minors for a year. So who knows. But with Bower's numbers - all you can see is the W-L record - it is hard to imagine there wasn't a time a team sought after him.

 

[seventieslord]

Yes, definitely. Certain players with extensive achievements at the AHL level are even more underrated than Bower, because he managed to earn individual recognition at the NHL level and they didn't - guys like Al Arbour and Steve Kraftcheck come to mind. In a league with a functioning waiver system they'd have likely been a 2nd pairing NHL defenseman for another decade and we'd all know their names.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

One thing to keep in mind regarding the talent pool in the 70s, is that the end of the sponsorship system meant that none of the new teams had a robust pipeline of players being trained specifically to play roles on their NHL teams, and that the existing teams that adapted poorly to the draft era (I'm looking at you, Toronto Maple Leafs) saw their existing pipelines evaporate. So I think you have 2 separate forces (rapid expansion in both the NHL and WHA on one side, no more sponsorship on the other side), effecting both the supply and demand that led to the inequality of the seventies.

So in the sense that the 60s Leafs like Horton, Keon, Ellis were molded to play roles in a Leafs style team, players like Benning and Nylund just did whatever they had done in Junior.

There could have been some sort of agenda or blacklist to keep Bower out of the NHL though. I know Worsley after he won the Calder asked for a raise and they demoted him to the minors for a year. So who knows. But with Bower's numbers - all you can see is the W-L record - it is hard to imagine there wasn't a time a team sought after him.

Hard to imagine why they would want to blacklist him over negotiations given he folded in pretty much every salary dispute he ever had with Punch Imlach

 

[Big Phil]

Hard to imagine why they would want to blacklist him over negotiations given he folded in pretty much every salary dispute he ever had with Punch Imlach

I think Punch took advantage of the fact that Bower was just happy to be in the NHL.

I am not sure why Bower took so long to get into the NHL.

 

[Stephen]

But don't we also have to look at the particulars of the Johnny Bower story to understand why he was in the AHL for as long as he was? My understanding is he made good money and had a comfortable situation in Cleveland.

Bower, Johnny -- Biography -- Honoured Player -- Legends of Hockey

Bower's big break came in the summer of 1958 when the Toronto Maple Leafs claimed him from Cleveland at the Intra-League Draft. Bower was reluctant to join the Leafs, even though they had finished in last place the previous season, telling them he could be of no help to the team. It was only after being threatened with suspension that he showed up for training camp that fall, and within days, he had established himself as the team's number one goalie at age 34. He was to play a total of 12 seasons with the Leafs.

Johnny Bower | The Canadian Encyclopedia

Bower was 33 years old when the Toronto Maple Leafs drafted him for the 1958–59 season. While he was hesitant to leave the security of his minor league position, he also felt compelled to fulfill his childhood dream of winning the Stanley Cup. In his first season, he led the last-place Leafs to a Stanley Cup final. Bower quickly established a reputation as a hard worker who was unflappably calm under pressure.

So in the end it may have just been one of those unique circumstances as opposed to any real evidence of the AHL being stronger than it was or the NHL being jam packed with goalie talent. Just a story of a guy who was overlooked for whatever reason but was happy where he was for a long time.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Good post. I absolutely agree with you that Bower is underrated, and underrated largely due to lack of appreciation for his AHL career.

O6 era AHL deserves a proper recognition. Goalies from O6 era AHL especially.

Do you happen to have a list of AHL All-Star teams? Earliest I could ever find were from wikipedia, from 2013 onwards... Where are those ASTs from 1950s when Bower played?

I'm trying to locate that now. Busy day so I am now just getting to relax and poke around the net haha.

If AS nods came in 51/51 (Glenn Hall played that year) or 56/57 (Harry Lumley) then I'd be very impressed. I'm guessing the latter is a yes given it was one of his MVP campaigns which would be of some significance, besting a fellow NHL HOF'er.

I was disappointed that this huge part of his career was not really brought up in the top 200 project. For as much as we talk about the Soviet era and trying to rank them relative to the NHL players, ignoring Bower's dominance in a league that would have probably waxed any other nation in the world, at least up through the early 1960's, is a major oversight. May be a bit harsh but as you can see in the OP, the AHL had a tremendous amount of talent, throughout Bower's career.

 

[Stephen]

May be a bit harsh but as you can see in the OP, the AHL had a tremendous amount of talent, throughout Bower's career.

I feel like the case is being overstated somewhat as a lot of the players listed were prospects who needed a little AHL polish as it is the case today.

(If the implication that the AHL was essentially a parallel NHL equivalent which allowed for a seamless transition to a 12 team league).

I think the Bower AHL career path was just an atypical situation.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Yes, definitely. Certain players with extensive achievements at the AHL level are even more underrated than Bower, because he managed to earn individual recognition at the NHL level and they didn't - guys like Al Arbour and Steve Kraftcheck come to mind. In a league with a functioning waiver system they'd have likely been a 2nd pairing NHL defenseman for another decade and we'd all know their names.

I agree with your sentiment but it's kind of hard to be more underrated than a man who won 3 consecutive league MVP's, with some very legit NHL talent in the league at the time. And here's why. If this was a significant portion of Bower's career, why was it not talked about beyond a single person, in a few sentences, earlier in the top 200 project? Completely glossed over. Just looking at Bower's record in the NHL to determine his all time value, would seem to negatively impact him, possibly considerably.

No offense to Al Arbour (who is well known because of his coaching) and Kraftcheck, another 4, 5, 6 seasons in the NHL wouldn't have drastically moved the needle on them. Bower consistently put up great performances in a league littered with NHL caliber players (some quite good), won major accolades, titles, and then still managed to get to the NHL, as a 30 something, and dominate multiple years statistically (we did get a good look at this numbers in the top 200 project), with his main legacy coming for the 60's dynasty Leafs, where he was a brick wall more often than not, past the age of 40 even.

I guess I'd like to have a more robust look at the AHL from WWII through the end of the 06 era and come up with a relative value for playing there and translating to the NHL/other leagues and era's. I think Bower could stand to gain the most, but do agree that there are many others (my list in the OP is not nearly complete as far as players who made the NHL for at least a season) would stand to benefit from increased scrutiny. It's been an eye opener for me, going over the laundry list of players I had no idea spent significant time in the AHL and then carved out solid roles in the big league.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I feel like the case is being overstated somewhat as a lot of the players listed were prospects who needed a little AHL polish as it is the case today.

(If the implication that the AHL was essentially a parallel NHL equivalent which allowed for a seamless transition to a 12 team league).

I think the Bower AHL career path was just an atypical situation.

Not at all. Would never suggest that as it would be hyperbolic.

But for the record, a player like Pierre Pilote spent 3+ seasons in the AHL, his last partial season coming in the first of 3 MVP's for Bower. 52-53 through 54-55 he played almost every game each year and then 44 in 55/56. He was 21-24 years old and transitioned pretty seamlessly to the NHL and quickly became a name to know (5th in Calder his first full year). Obviously Pilote wasn't a Norris caliber player at this point, but he would have represented a major talent relative to the average player.

Even still you see numerous players like Ken Wharram, Bronco Horvath, Gaye Stewart, Pat Egan, etc that played pretty significant hockey in the AHL, namely in the 50's. These aren't fringe NHL'ers.

The higher end talent certainly spent less time in the lower league, but even with that players like Sawchuk and Horton for example essentially played 2 years.

We'll really need to come up with a comprehensive list of players who spent time in both leagues and then pinpoint where the league was strongest/weakest for starters.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Nice general article on Bower:

Johnny Bower: 100 Greatest NHL Players

Bun Cook developed him in Cleveland.

His Cleveland coach, former New York Rangers forward Bun Cook, refined Bower's game. Cook taught him to play the angles rather than just hurl himself at shots. He also began using lighter weight sticks, a necessity because the arthritis had weakened his hands. By the 1949-50 season, Bower was Cleveland's ace and he helped the Barons win their division five times in seven seasons and win the Calder Cup three times. He was also voted the AHL's top goalie three times.

He was hampered by arthritis, poor eyesight.

First goalie to ever win league MVP honors and did it 3 straight years.

He was clearly the best goalie not in the NHL, winning championships and earning All-Star selections. He also was the first AHL goalie to be league MVP and the first to win the honor three consecutive times (1956-58).

@Big Phil has asked about reasoning for being in the minor leagues:

Here's a good tidbit on that.

Enter the Maple Leafs, looking for an upgrade in goal and a veteran to help train their junior prospect Gerry Cheevers. Bower initially didn't want to go. He was happy in Cleveland, had a successful restaurant there and was tired of moving. But, like most hockey players, his Stanley Cup dreams proved irresistible and he wasn't going to win that in the AHL.

Seemed to be ahead of his time in terms of scouting out opponents:

The Leafs also respected how Bower continually worked to improve his game. He kept what he called "a little black book" on his NHL opponents, their tendencies with the puck and where they'd shoot on him, which he'd study before games.

He was always trying to add new wrinkles to his style. Imlach noted in his autobiography that Bower "is simply not a normal sort of guy. He had so much desire that he was able to continue to develop all the time," where most other athletes eventually "stop being able to get better. Bower never did stop. He came in, well, we'll say he came into the NHL at 40 years of age, damn near, and he was able to keep on getting better. On top of all that, he had the heart, the will.

"By wanting to be the best so badly," Imlach said, "he overcame the aging process."

 

[ImporterExporter]

Well, I was able to find the AHL-All Star data!

@DN28 as you asked earlier

Bower had unanimous 1st team AS nods over Lumley (56-57) and Gerry McNeil (57-58) not to mention his first team AS nod in 1952 came with Glenn Hall playing a full season with Indianapolis. These are significant bullet points IMO.

I edited this into the OP:

1947-48:

A handful of very recognizable names

1948-49:

1949-50:

Sawchuk 1st team AS

Bower honorable mention, narrowly out of 2nd place.

1950-51:

Bower 2nd team along with Marcel Pronovost (Tim Horton is tucked in the honorable mention section)

Some solid names on there, capable NHL talent

1951-52:

Bower 1st team AS along with Tim Horton

Glenn Hall played a full season but was only 22-40 for the Indianapolis Capitols, and does not appear to receive any votes. Still, it's important to note his presence in the league.

1952-53:

Bower a 1st teamer

1953-54:

Bower not in AHL at this time

Good names include Red Sullivan, Gaye Stewart, Emile Francis

1954-55:

Bower not in AHL

1955-56:

Bower first team and you see Pierre Pilote tucked in the honorable mention category

1956-57:

Bower unanimous 1st team choice over Harry Lumley.

1957-58

Bower a unanimous 1st team choice over Gerry McNeil, hardly a no-name goalie.

And here you can see Bowers AS nods.

1st team nod in 51-52 and 52-53, 55/56 through 57/58

 

[DN28]

Well, I was able to find the AHL-All Star data!

@DN28 as you asked earlier

Bower had unanimous 1st team AS nods over Lumley (56-57) and Gerry McNeil (57-58) not to mention his first team AS nod in 1952 came with Glenn Hall playing a full season with Indianapolis. These are significant bullet points IMO.

I edited this into the OP:

1947-48:

A handful of very recognizable names

1948-49:

1949-50:

Sawchuk 1st team AS

Bower honorable mention, narrowly out of 2nd place.

1950-51:

Bower 2nd team along with Marcel Pronovost (Tim Horton is tucked in the honorable mention section)

Some solid names on there, capable NHL talent

1951-52:

Bower 1st team AS along with Tim Horton

Glenn Hall played a full season but was only 22-40 for the Indianapolis Capitols, and does not appear to receive any votes. Still, it's important to note his presence in the league.

1952-53:

Bower a 1st teamer

1953-54:

Bower not in AHL at this time

Good names include Red Sullivan, Gaye Stewart, Emile Francis

1954-55:

Bower not in AHL

1955-56:

Bower first team and you see Pierre Pilote tucked in the honorable mention category

1956-57:

Bower unanimous 1st team choice over Harry Lumley.

1957-58

Bower a unanimous 1st team choice over Gerry McNeil, hardly a no-name goalie.

And here you can see Bowers AS nods.

1st team nod in 51-52 and 52-53, 55/56 through 57/58

Perfecto! Great work.

Thank you for taking the time to dig these up and post them.

This really opens up the space for Bower to be recognized for what he was, i. e. the best player outside NHL in the 1950s as a whole... Just as we recognize, for example, Firsov for the 60s, Kharlamov for the 70s, Makarov for the 80s etc.

 

[Theokritos]

Well, I was able to find the AHL-All Star data!

Good work!

 

[ImporterExporter]

Perfecto! Great work.

Thank you for taking the time to dig these up and post them.

This really opens up the space for Bower to be recognized for what he was, i. e. the best player outside NHL in the 1950s as a whole... Just as we recognize, for example, Firsov for the 60s, Kharlamov for the 70s, Makarov for the 80s etc.

My pleasure and yes I'd agree totally. Not only is there consistent, dare I say domination by Bower from 51-52 through 57-58, he was also winning AS nods over HOFers like Hall and Lumley.

Good work!

Thanks Theo!

 

[quoipourquoi]

If this was a significant portion of Bower's career, why was it not talked about beyond a single person, in a few sentences, earlier in the top 200 project? Completely glossed over. Just looking at Bower's record in the NHL to determine his all time value, would seem to negatively impact him, possibly considerably.

First of all, great work here. Second, where were you weeks ago!!

As the person who wrote those few sentences you referenced, I can’t say I disagree, but I think the more lengthy discussion about opportunity itself (between 6-12 NHL jobs; depressed awards support for tandem goaltenders) needed precedence over assessing the comparative value of the AHL accolades. Because if someone doesn’t buy into the former, they likely aren’t going to care about the latter.

Ultimately, he was selected a week earlier than expected based on the aggregate, so the discussion period for him was somewhat abbreviated.

I think there was more tangential discussion than necessary regarding his splits vs. Sawchuk’s given that 1967 (which made Bower look bad) was presented initially and had to be shown as anomalous over and over and over until it kinda stuck.

I’d like to think that in 2030 when we’re redoing these lists, we’ll have enough of a grasp on the broad strokes Bower’s career to be able to focus on the finer details when he becomes eligible for discussion... in the top-70 range.

 

[ImporterExporter]

First of all, great work here. Second, where were you weeks ago!!

As the person who wrote those few sentences you referenced, I can’t say I disagree, but I think the more lengthy discussion about opportunity itself (between 6-12 NHL jobs; depressed awards support for tandem goaltenders) needed precedence over assessing the comparative value of the AHL accolades. Because if someone doesn’t buy into the former, they likely aren’t going to care about the latter.

Ultimately, he was selected a week earlier than expected based on the aggregate, so the discussion period for him was somewhat abbreviated.

I think there was more tangential discussion than necessary regarding his splits vs. Sawchuk’s given that 1967 (which made Bower look bad) was presented initially and had to be shown as anomalous over and over and over until it kinda stuck.

I’d like to think that in 2030 when we’re redoing these lists, we’ll have enough of a grasp on the broad strokes Bower’s career to be able to focus on the finer details when he becomes eligible for discussion... in the top-70 range.

Thanks Q!

Researching Bun Cook and Hap Holmes to answer your first question haha. That and running the ATD. I'll be as honest as anyone, I knew very little about Bower's AHL career. Certainly not to extent being put out for display now (coupled with the strong look into his NHL statistics, which to me are very, very, good, great job on diving further in to those!!). That's just ignorance on my part, as I think we get stereotypes stuck in our heads about lesser leagues and tend to breeze past them.

Reading more on Bower, I think part of why he wasn't in the NHL in the 50's was he simply didn't want to go. You see instances of him ignoring NHL overtures because he simply didn't want to move from Cleveland/Providence. He was making good money in the AHL, was a star, and also had a successful restaurant in Cleveland so he had financial/work responsibilities that impacted his decision making, at least to some degree. There is very little to suggest he was in the AHL because he wasn't good enough for the NHL. Not when he was racking up AS nods over HOF'ers and winning MVP's, something goalies rarely do, in any league.

As for the projects, I think of them as really strong barometers for value and historical overviews, at least relative to the lists you see put out there by the NHL or other "reputable" websites/publishers.

The splits with Sawchuk aren't that important for a couple of major reasons and am rather disappointed it was touched on as much as it was, especially when the AHL career was completely ignored, the latter being of much more significance than 1 year, when Bower was 42 years old, compared to Sawchuk who was 37 and quite frankly a better goalie in an all time light. Did people bring up how bad Bower's arthritis was? Or his poor eyesight? I might have missed those pieces of information being discussed.

The Lundqvist ranking was way too much for me for example. Classic example of a guy getting way to much road based on a good, but not great stretch of Vezina and AS nods, in an era where goal tending competition is very weak relative to the 90's, 70's, 60's, 50's, 40's, pre consolation, certainly in terms of top end talent. I still see too much of this (Lehman is another HUGE example). There isn't enough context being discussed there. I feel like too often these awards are looked at in a relative light, like they should carry the same or similar values, across era's. To be clear, I could be overstating how often this happens, but it does go on and it impacts the conclusions.

I've never been impressed with Lundy to be honest in an all time sense. Played behind defensive oriented teams, has the most consistent stretch of quality play in the cap era, but only won the Vezina once. Bobrovsky and Tim Thomas both have more in the cap era. Lundy was an AS twice. Meh, again not impressed given who he was up against during the 10 year stretch he is known for (06 to 2015). Hell, he was a 3rd team AS just once.

Then there are the playoffs, where he never finished. To be fair, his postseason numbers are quite good and there aren't a slew of instances where you can point to him as the culprit of failure. Again though, many deep runs. Never on the right side of things. He wasn't good in 06 sweep by the Devils, 08 against Pitt, collapsed in a 4-3 series loss to Washington in 2011 (Rangers blew 3-1 series lead and Lundy gave up 11 goals in final 3 games), sucked awfully against Pitt in 2016.

His claim to fame in terms of big game goal tending is the 06 Olympics, which I do give him very high marks for.

I think if there is any goalie who should be closer to the Benedict, Gardiner, Durnan level, it's Bower, comfortably inside the top 100, certainly if we hold the 50's AHL as the overwhelming 2nd best league in the world at the time, and use that value relative to say what Firsov gets for his exploits in 60's Soviet domestic leagues because if you tally up every NHL player who made an AHL AS team or was honorably mentioned in the 50's, they'd give even the best 60's Soviet hockey conglomerate a serious run for their money. IMO.

We're talking Sawchuk, Bower, Lumley in goal. No league in the world could compete with that.

Dmen include Tim Horton, Pierre Pilote, Marcel Pronovost, Allan Stanley, Ott Heller, etc, etc. That group would destroy any crop of Soviet blue liners you could gather from the 60's certainly, and come out better than even 70's, though the gap would shrink.

Forward is where you see a much quicker merging of the gaps between the AHL and Soviet era. You would still have to get into the middle/latter portions of the 60's though for it to really overwhelm the late 40's and entire 50's worth of forwards who graced the AHL.

Maybe I'd feel different if it was Bower clowning a bunch of nobodies in the AHL or some serious evidence existed that said he wasn't good enough for the NHL. Neither of those theories hold any water, looking at the above. IMHO.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Good research, but 1952 Glenn Hall was still 3 years away from being an NHL starter for the first time, so I'm not sure if namedropping him is that impressive.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Perhaps a research thread with complete AHL awards records for the Original 6 period might be useful?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

O6 AHL teams are absolutely under rated historically.

My hometown Reds are nicely accounted for further up. But it's pretty incredible the talent that came through there.

Former Reds:

Bower
Brimsek
Schmidt
Blake
Flamman
Bauer
Dumart
Middleton
Giacommin
Cleghorn (coach)
Battleship Leduc
Worsley
Bouchard
Lalonde (coach)