Are NHL players the least educated professional athletes?

HugginThePost

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I think you're trying to argue something that doesn't exist.
As stated earlier I'd venture a guess that the average CHL player has a higher iq than the average equivalent aged football/basketball counterpart.
Regardless if the football/basketball player is "attending" college

I'm not arguing who is smarter, as I think you are right, but that's due to socio-economic factors, not intelligence.

I'm just wondering two things.....

One, why doesn't the NHL make these kids go to school. The only answer can be money.

Two, why are these players, who on average have a high school education, and that is pushing it, being asked to share their thoughts on running the NHL?

I agree that there are very smart players on most teams. But players, who are usually the face of the team, are being asked for their opinion on matters that I believe are above their intelligence/experience levels.
 

HugginThePost

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Some college Degree
MLB73% 4%
NBA85% 21%
NFL 99% 50%
NHL 33% ???
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Interestingly, I can't find any source to indicate how many NHL players have degrees.

Sources
Estimated probability of competing in professional athletics
What Percentage of High School Players Make it to the NBA?
Where Does NFL Talent Come From?
MLB 40-Man Roster Analysis 2012

Damn, I would have thought that MLB would be the highest ration!?!?

The other two seem to follow the eye test.
 

North Cole

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Always good to hear from you North Cole......

First, please don't think for a second that I think other professional athletes are "highly educated", because that would be a pretty damned hot take!!

The point of this thread wasn't to claim that hockey players are dumb.....far from it. It was more an indictment of the NHL as a whole. The norm is that players don't go on to higher education and instead straight to the professional leagues.

Yes, we can say that the education they are getting is a joke, and for the most part, it probably is, but why is it that the NHL is the only North American professional sport that doesn't push the kids to go to school.

The only thing I can think of is that schools can't make money off the students as they do with other sports, so they don't really give a flying f*** about them.

Personally, I think its best that they don't go onto higher education, and I wouldn't indict the NHL for this alone. Those NCAA kids are used as cash cows for the Colleges to make millions, sure in some cases the player becomes elite and makes millions himself, in others they get a degree and advanced work placement since Alumni will get them nice easy jobs (meanwhile the school has made millions).

The NHL thing is a a national issue, more than corporate decision making issue. The big four leagues in the US grew up from the college level as their grass roots. Taking NFL football for example, you can't have highschoolers being eligible for the NFL, or they would literally be killed playing a full contact headhunting sport against grown men (most of whom are freaks of nature). There is a very big difference between NHL and NFL physique, the NFL is full of absolute peak humans. This is also true for the CFL, as most players either wash out of the NFL and come here (Ricky Ray, et al) or they come up through a school program like Golden Bears, or Regina.

In the US, the bowl games have been around in most cases longer than the NFL itself, with some colleges going back 100+ years. For a long time, that was pretty well the highest level to play at - the Notre Dames, or Army vs Navy, etc. The NFL was very much an extension of those programs, and since the infrastructure and capitalism was already well established in the Colleges, they just continued to roll with it, also helped by the fact that you really just need these kids to spend four years maturing before sending them into the pros. I couldn't imagine the damage someone like Burfict would cause against 19 year old kids.

We are at the point where no one can really challenge the corporate engine that is the NCAA, it's just so many billions of dollars and driven by the madness of alumni who care more about their Alma Mater than pretty well anything else (in extreme cases its a very minor step below the flag). The NBA has talked for years about dropping the age restriction by one year, and recruiting ultra elite talent right out of highschool, which would effectively end the one and done prospects. It doesn't seem like they want to actually go through with it, too much NCAA lobbying - imagine how much money Duke pulled in just from having Zion on the team for one year.

Conversely, Canada does not have a populace that is so highly invested in college sports, so the U of A isn't going out to spend Nick Saban levels of money of hockey coaches (8.9M). These college coaches make what NHL coaches make x5 or x10... The best ways of being drafted into the NHL are the WHL, OHL, and Q. If we had a massive NCAA system that churned out endless money, with larger stadiums than NHL teams, who also spent more on practice facilities than NHL teams, then the three major junior leagues would quickly become obsolete, so kids would go to school. IMO that's what makes it systematic at the national level. Rose bowl stadium is what, 100K+ seating? That's like 35% more than an NFL stadium. This is also why NCAA hockey is pretty junk compared to the big four, because kids will just come here and play Major junior.

In basketball, no one has any issues with the one and done. In football, its well documented that guys like Lawrence, Odell, etc are just there to make the NFL (college is just a holding tank for them). I think it becomes very apparent in major junior around 17-19 whether you're going to get drafted and hit an AHL team. I don't think it's the end of the world that these guys go and play in junior, age out at 20 and not make the NHL with no education. They can still go to University at 20 years old - so I wouldn't indict the NHL for ruining peoples futures. Besides, if you played for a major junior team, you probably have a pretty good head-start being hired when you're done University - since corporations love to hire the ex-athlete, either as a trophy employee (This guy won a memorial cup, +1 corporate morale!) or because they think he's got the right work ethic from all the work put into getting to major junior, which will transfer well into their office.

EDIT - I also want to speculate that I really don't think the NFL can challenge the NCAA. If they cut out the NCAA, and created their own development program - I think they would lose massive amounts of fans. Football may be Americas game, and the NFL may try to pass itself of as Americas league, but Football is really America's game at the collegiate level. I think there would be major blow back from fans if the NFL just told the NCAA to take a hike, people have massive loyalty to their school programs - which would suddenly stop being able to recruit elite talent.

Sorry for the length.

TL;DR - NCAA is too big and too rich. Canada never depended on University athletic programs for the growth of hockey talent, and the best way into the NHL remains major junior. So as a result, kids go into the major junior in Canada. Kids go into NCAA in the US because they have nothing else. Different national development programs.
 
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tucker3434

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Players should always have input on decisions that will have a pretty large impact on their day-to-day lives. But when it comes to the science/medical side of things, the NHL (and all sports leagues) are going to depend on people with MD’s, PhD’s, etc.

So, education is irrelevant in this decision.
 

TheFinalWord

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I'm not arguing who is smarter, as I think you are right, but that's due to socio-economic factors, not intelligence.

I'm just wondering two things.....

One, why doesn't the NHL make these kids go to school. The only answer can be money.

Two, why are these players, who on average have a high school education, and that is pushing it, being asked to share their thoughts on running the NHL?

I agree that there are very smart players on most teams. But players, who are usually the face of the team, are being asked for their opinion on matters that I believe are above their intelligence/experience levels.

As much as you try to deny it, you're equating education with intelligence. The players are the NHL, and yet you feel they shouldn't have a voice on how to proceed? Should warehouse workers at Amazon have a say in how they are made to work? Should wait staff at restaurants have a say? Many of these low-paying jobs don't require further education, so should we believe they shouldn't have any input?
 

Jacksonbobson

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No sport has players that would be capable of giving in depth opinions on this. Going to college for an art degree hardly qualifies you to comment on covid. They're being asked because they are the main people involved with the game.
 
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RefalancheStillLose

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I'm not arguing who is smarter, as I think you are right, but that's due to socio-economic factors, not intelligence.

I'm just wondering two things.....

One, why doesn't the NHL make these kids go to school. The only answer can be money.

Two, why are these players, who on average have a high school education, and that is pushing it, being asked to share their thoughts on running the NHL?

I agree that there are very smart players on most teams. But players, who are usually the face of the team, are being asked for their opinion on matters that I believe are above their intelligence/experience levels.
They can't make players go to college.
the NBA/NFL don't make players go to college either.
The only rules in place are 3years after high school graduation for NFL eligibility, 1yr for NBA eligibility .
There's just no other options for those players to continue developing other than college.
 
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HugginThePost

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As much as you try to deny it, you're equating education with intelligence. The players are the NHL, and yet you feel they shouldn't have a voice on how to proceed? Should warehouse workers at Amazon have a say in how they are made to work? Should wait staff at restaurants have a say? Many of these low-paying jobs don't require further education, so should we believe they shouldn't have any input?

No, I am not.

Also, no, I don't think Amazon warehouse employees should have a say in how Jeff runs the company.

Just like I don't think NHL players should be chiming in on economic and health issues in regards to how the league proceeds. Unless they are qualified to do so, and in that case absolutely they can contribute.

Do I think a kid like Adam Fox is more capable of sound reasoning than Connor McDavid due to him attending Harvard? Of course, I do.
 

Paperbagofglory

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In no point in human history i believe is there a greater divide between strength of the body and strength of the mind. Working out becomes just a hobby and not for survival. Its for feeling good and being healthy which nobody is going to judge as a bad thing. .The tragedy is we accept the status quo and let stupid people not possibly up their potential by even a few percent by making them reach their upper limits educationally by forcing them to actually have higher grades and not letting them get away with loop holes in the system that basically does the homework for them. It's not their fault, they are being told this is more important, and maybe it is, maybe they will make millions of dollars and their families will be taken care of for their entire lives. But it feels like something is lost and their children will pay for it when the same attitude creeps up into their off spring when they inherit their fathers athletic ability and told that school is not important and then we have another generation of under educated jocks that can throw a ball well.

Maybe its naive of me but when it comes to IQ spikes, the brain can be trained and worked out, but it needs to happen early and academics have to be encouraged. You aren't going to get geniuses, but you will have a better result even a tiny fraction of improvement which will improve generation after generation until we have a better balance between body and mind. Its funny that the one muscle ignores is the most important one. We are collectively becoming dumber and its happening at an ever increasing rate. We got fooled into thinking we are more evolved because the literacy rate is so low around the world and a lot more people can read then say compared to the dark ages.

Sports are a fantastic achievement in what the human body can do if you work hard and train and your profession, but i feel sorry for kids that dropped out so early and never got a chance to catch up in their schooling only to then end up failing making the pros. They sacrificed so much and it did not end up paying off, its a huge gamble with a giant lottery ticket at the end if they make it.
 

RefalancheStillLose

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No, I am not.

Also, no, I don't think Amazon warehouse employees should have a say in how Jeff runs the company.

Just like I don't think NHL players should be chiming in on economic and health issues in regards to how the league proceeds. Unless they are qualified to do so, and in that case absolutely they can contribute.

Do I think a kid like Adam Fox is more capable of sound reasoning than Connor McDavid due to him attending Harvard? Of course, I do.
You're right the employees at Amazon shouldn't have a say in how bezos runs the company.
But you're wrong in that it is an example of a comparable situation to the NHL.
The labor agreements between the PA and League are such that the NHL can't just come out and say 82 game schedule. Playing every other day in a bubble of our choosing.
They are bound by the terms of the cba.
Hence any changes require the players to agree to it.
Now why would the players agree if they don't get a voice in it? If they, the players , don't agree with those changes the NHL cannot force them to accept it or forfeit their contracts .

Where's Amazon could say (in most cases) don't like it, quit. Otherwise don't abide by it and you're fired.
Fehr isn't going to agree to something for the players without speaking to them on what they value. It is his job to represent the players interest while understanding all the legal jargon they don't.

Both sides want a season but both sides would have to agree. No better way to do that then to get a bunch of players to talk directly with the NHL.
 

ColbyChaos

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I was listening to the XM NHL station this morning, and Fehr was talking about putting together a panel of players to work with the NHL to decide how to move forward with regard to next season and the COVID pandemic.

While I completely understand getting their input, they are the on-ice product after all, I struggle to give any real weight to their thoughts on the matter. NHL players have to be the least educated people in all professional sports, at least in North America.

Almost every professional sport; football, basketball, baseball, golf, tennis, etc., is rooted in college play. Of course, there are exceptions, but the norm is that they go to college prior to entering their pro sport. Now, a case can be made that they really aren't getting a great education and are just getting by, getting pushed through, or taking very easy majors. Anyone that has seen Last Chance U will understand. But, at least they are doing that, at least the powers that be are saying you need some level of education.

I'm sure the same can be said for NHL players but it would be High School that they are getting a pass on.

It does make sense when you see some of the comments from the players when discussing collective bargaining, a lot of them have no idea how the league works.

The NFL and NBA exist so no
 
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TheFinalWord

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No, I am not.

Also, no, I don't think Amazon warehouse employees should have a say in how Jeff runs the company.

Just like I don't think NHL players should be chiming in on economic and health issues in regards to how the league proceeds. Unless they are qualified to do so, and in that case absolutely they can contribute.

Do I think a kid like Adam Fox is more capable of sound reasoning than Connor McDavid due to him attending Harvard? Of course, I do.

Just like voters should not have a say in who runs the country, since they aren't the 'experts', correct? I mean we can do away with the elections and save us all a lot of time and money. I'd sure hate to work for you, if you believe the opinions of the front-line workers are not worth consideration in the running of the business. To assume they have nothing of value to add, because they didn't go to Harvard is one way of thinking. Fortunately, I don't think it is the most common way of thinking. It sounds very elitist.
 
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HugginThePost

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Getting a degree in gender studies doesn't make you educated either. Just the fact that you're going to university doesn't make you smart or educated. I've met lots of dummies at my university.

Ummm......actually, yes, it does, by definition.

I have never once said you're smarter for having a degree, I've said you're more educated.

And I'm also willing to bet if you put in the time to take a four-year degree, chances are you're going to be smarter than someone who forgoes school.

Yes, there are exceptions, but I'm talking on the whole.
 

GAGLine

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I was listening to the XM NHL station this morning, and Fehr was talking about putting together a panel of players to work with the NHL to decide how to move forward with regard to next season and the COVID pandemic.

While I completely understand getting their input, they are the on-ice product after all, I struggle to give any real weight to their thoughts on the matter. NHL players have to be the least educated people in all professional sports, at least in North America.

The players were involved in the return to play discussions, and that went pretty well, I'd say.
 

HugginThePost

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Just like voters should not have a say in who runs the country, since they aren't the 'experts', correct? I mean we can do away with the elections and save us all a lot of time and money. I'd sure hate to work for you, if you believe the opinions of the front-line workers are not worth consideration in the running of the business. To assume they have nothing of value to add, because they didn't go to Harvard is one way of thinking. Fortunately, I don't think it is the most common way of thinking. It sounds very elitist.

I'm pretty sure an easy argument could be made that the average voter has no idea what they are voting for. They vote party, period. Ask them anything about their politics or the other side and more often than not they don't have a clue. University students are some of the best examples, at least in the US.

Not the best argument.

But yes, the Amazon warehouse guys should have input on the warehouse activities, absolutely. But should they have input on financial forecasting and budgeting? No, that's absurd.

I'm all for NHL players having input on things that will affect them, especially the upcoming year. But decisions on how the league needs to open up next year need to be made by smarter people than NHL players.......at least the bulk of the players.
 

Pyrophorus

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My experience is the opposite. I defy you to use that way of thinking on Olie Kolzig or Peter Bondra or Evgeny Kuznetsov. How many former players are team general managers or higher?

They know hockey very well.
The other aspects of managing, contracts, CBA and such are done by people who are experts hired by the team.

Shanahan was torched for not knowing anything about management. It was a fair point-so he hired people who
did know. Burke went to law school, the learn more about contracts and labour law.
 

txpd

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Damn, I would have thought that MLB would be the highest ration!?!?

The other two seem to follow the eye test.

Baseball players choose college over the minor leagues after being drafted because of what the low end of the minor leagues is like. College baseball is equivilant or better plus the education. At some point in the process those players with legit major league potential are told that and they need coaching and supervision of the organEYEzation of the workload of a professional baseball schedule. They get a better signing bonus because they have proven to be legit and they are gone. Also consider that none of the Latin American portion of the league have gone to college.
 

Pyrophorus

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Getting a degree in gender studies doesn't make you educated either. Just the fact that you're going to university doesn't make you smart or educated. I've met lots of dummies at my university.

I can agree in part. I also don't think these people are completely bereft.
University is also what you put into it, journalists, politicians, entrepreneurs did more than just crack the books.
Cracking the books soley is for people who are going for something, like engineering or med school.
 

txpd

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They know hockey very well.
The other aspects of managing, contracts, CBA and such are done by people who are experts hired by the team.

Of course they have experts. They have a scouting director for a reason. They have a salary cap specialist for a reason. MacLellan has an MBA and had a legit Wall St career in progress when he was talked back into hockey. McPhee has a law degree and clerked for a federal court judge before returning to hockey. I am fairly sure there are areas of both hockey and the law where Ken Dryden isnt an expert.

I am also not sure what knowing hockey means exactly. Does Bobby Orr just know hockey?
 

Pyrophorus

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Of course they have experts. They have a scouting director for a reason. They have a salary cap specialist for a reason. MacLellan has an MBA and had a legit Wall St career in progress when he was talked back into hockey. McPhee has a law degree and clerked for a federal court judge before returning to hockey. I am fairly sure there are areas of both hockey and the law where Ken Dryden isnt an expert.

I am also not sure what knowing hockey means exactly. Does Bobby Orr just know hockey?

Orr is now an agent, so I hope has has boned up on how to negotiate.

Knowing hockey is knowing players and their play. Includes coaches too.
 

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