And I agree with you there too; Lemieux was actually very close, he just didn't maintain it as long or consistently. But at his best he was very near.
Anyone have Gretzky vs. Lemieux head-to-head game stats?
- Thread starter zackmak
- Start date
And I agree with you there too; Lemieux was actually very close, he just didn't maintain it as long or consistently. But at his best he was very near.
Not that near. Gretzky won scoring titles by as much as 69%, Mario's best was 18%. Gretzky dominated the game to a degree that Lemieux never approached.
Penguinator
Kesselator
Nevermind Mario's health issues, hey... Apparently it's an excuse.
Main factor to me is that Gretzky always played on a stacked team & Mario didn't.
To put it simply & peacefully, Wayne was the greatest & Mario was the best.
Very different players too...
Main factor to me is that Gretzky always played on a stacked team & Mario didn't.
To put it simply & peacefully, Wayne was the greatest & Mario was the best.
Very different players too...
drganon
Registered User
- Jun 24, 2014
- 912
- 26
Gretzky didn't always played on stacked teams. Early on the oilers weren't that great,but quite a few of his teammates became great, largely because of playing with him. The Kings and Rangers teams he played on, while not terrible, I wouldn't go far as to stacked.
As for Lemieux, he wasn't exactly taking the penguins to the cup before the arrival of Francis, Jagr, Coffey, Murphy, Trottier, Mullen, and all the rest on those highly stacked penguin teams.
On a final note, I don't get the whole, " he was the best, but he was the greatest" crap. Not just for comparing Gretzky and Lemieux, but any two players.
BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
- 14,830
- 3,775
There is no argument that can be made for Mario over Wayne that doesn't include a "what if"...
Completely false. Every single time it is brought up by Lemieux fans.
Nope.
That is very true.
That point always comes up... but the 'Mario camp' is putting WAAAAY too much significance on it. Gretzky, no matter what team he played for - with or without bona fide superstars - was always able to rack up sizeable points, while at the same time making those around him that much better. His LA/StL/NY team rosters were no different in overall 'stardom' than half the other teams in the league at the time, and also including the Pittsburgh teams Mario had to play for early in his career.
Gretzky was almost 29yrs old when he joined the Kings in 1988. Even at that age and above (with arguably a hockey player's point-producing prime years behind him) he was still putting up very very impressive numbers with teams that had little to average depth, year-in, year out, until the end of his career. Therefore, for more than half his career (11 years out of 20), he put up 42% of his total career points with those teams. Just like the Lemieux fans believe if Mario played more games with a better roster, he'd have more points (which is true), a Gretzky fan can most certainly believe since Gretzky could put up such great numbers even past his prime, if Gretzky played his first 9 years of the NHL with mediocre teams, he would still put up earth-shattering numbers, and those total points would be much much higher than even the impressive numbers he accumulated when he joined those said teams at a later age. People tend to forget that when the Oilers came into the NHL, they were a bad team (standings-wise) and stayed that way for a couple years. Seeing what he did with a bad team in 1979 coming into stardom, and seeing what he did with a bad team in 1988 in LA at 29yrs old – it’s hard to argue that he wouldn’t have achieved the same success with any bad team in the 1980’s. He’s a prodigy!
Lemieux, on the other hand, during his 19yr old-30yr old 'prime' playing age (which accounts to 9 seasons of 60 or more games) put up good-great numbers with a lacklustre roster for the first 3-4 years...BUT he didn't excel in that scenario like Gretzky did during his lacklustre roster years (1979-80 and 1980-81; and LA onward). And when the Penguin's roster started to blossom to the point where he was playing with a star-studded roster for the remainder of those 'prime' years, Lemieux still couldn't excel like Gretzky did during his star-studded rosters of 1981-82 to 1987-88.
Hence the difference in numbers and player greatness. Yes, Lemieux played fewer games in those prime years, but Mario's game playing numbers are still well within the appropriate sample size to make equal comparisons. And I understand people make a fuss about the dead-puck era or lower scoring as the decade went on (and that affected Mario’s point-getting), but they were only separated by 5 years and I don’t think there was enough difference in the game between 1980-1999 to classify Gretzky and Leimieux playing in different eras. If you take out the ‘abnormal’ Gretzky and Lemieux from the scoring stats, the next superstar in the point standings gave you totals that were in the 120’s-130’s, with the exception or two. So, the playing field was more or less equal for both Gretzky and Lemieux. Any advantage for either of them playing 5 years before/5 years after the other’s arrival in the NHL, is slight, in overall comparisons, in my opinion.
HabsQC
Registered User
If I have to choose between the two to dress up tonight for my team, not looking at the stats, I personnally go with Lemieux
Mr. Fancy Pants
Registered User
Like in his rookie year when Gretzky tied for the scoring title playing along side "superstars" such as Blair MacDonald and Dave Lumley?
Player Name GP G A Pts
Wayne Gretzky 79 51 86 137
Blair MacDonald 80 46 48 94
Stan Weir 79 33 33 66
Brett Callighen 59 23 35 58
Dave Lumley 80 20 38 58
Dave Hunter 80 12 31 43
KCC
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2007
- 18,461
- 9,452
Once again people like you throw out that as an excuse when in reality you don't really know.
All of the greats hanging in the rafters along side him were all teenagers just like him when he entered the league. They were unproven and not all star players yet. They grew together and won together. They earned their domination and their dynasty.
My point is some people (like you) seem to think he was on already a stacked team when he started playing, but that was never the case. The Islanders at the time were the stacked team and they overtook them soon after because of hard work and believing they could be the best.
Same, but we'd both be making the wrong choice. Not just because Gretzky was better, but because he was also healthier and was able to help his team be more successful due to actually being on the ice far more. Gretzky was also more likely to be big in big games. Not that we'd be upset with Lemieux on our teams, either of us, but we'd still be making the wrong choice.
Then how do you explain Gretzky's 212 point season in 1981-82? He scored 107 more points than anyone else on his team. And if it wasn't for Glen Anderson, he would have had more points than anyone else on his team with his goals alone. And if you removed every single one of his record 92 goals that season, he still destroys everyone's point total on his team with his assists alone. Kurri didn't even score 90 points that year. In fact, no one on his team besides Anderson broke 90 points! So, once again, if Gretzky scored so much only because he played for stacked teams, then how do you explain 1981-82?
Thats like saying McDavid will be starting his career on a stacked team. The 79-80 Oilers that he started on was an expansion team. The players grew together to become a dynasty and Gretz was the straw that stirred the drink. He made them all better as each and everyone of them attested too. Great players make others better. Even Mario in the Canada Cup said he benefited from playing with Wayne. Just seeing how he handled the pressure of the media and seeing how hard he worked and practiced.
In 79-80 when Gretzky tied for the scoring title at age 18 with 137 points Glenn Anderson wasnt on the team yet. Neither was Paul Coffey. Neither was Grant Fuhr.
The only two were Kevin Lowe and Mark Messier. Nobody has ever considered Lowe some hall of fame defender but nonetheless he eeked out 21 points.
Mark Messier?
He scored 33 points in 80 games.
Mr. Fancy Pants
Registered User
If I looked at Wayne, and most other stars of any era on the ice and not on the score sheet, I'd almost always pick the other player. The other player was faster, bigger, tough, shot harder. Not until you look at the score sheet do you realize who the better player was.
Somethings can't be explained. Mozart writing songs at age 4, Beetoven writing symphonies while deaf, and Gretzky getting 200+ pts with his skill set.
It makes no sense, but it happened.
Actually, it makes perfect sense.
Genius, in any vocation or endeavor, is a God-given gift. Genius does not require physical size, it cannot be bought, you can't work hard enough to get it, it can't be achieved through better coaching or equipment and you can't choose who is gifted with it. Genius is from God and often, God uses the most unlikely person to confound the world. Gretzky is that genius. He was born gifted for the game of hockey just like Mozart was gifted for music, Bradman for cricket and Kasparov for chess.
Genius is all mental and Gretzky's brain made him greater than anyone to ever play the game. That is why, if you moved a prime Gretzky into 2015, he would dominate to the same degree he did the 80s - his genius would elevate him to the top no matter the differences in the game today. His brain in the body of an average 25 year old 2015 NHL body would produce absolute dominance as it would in any season of NHL hockey. Genius cannot be denied.
Last edited by a moderator:
PensandCaps
Beddy Tlueger
- May 22, 2015
- 27,648
- 18,022
BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
- 14,830
- 3,775
BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
- 14,830
- 3,775
Maybe Gretzky did have a different way of processing in his brain that made what he did possible, but I think this is an incorrect statement and really cheapens the effort put into his game.
No matter his inherent talents, Gretzky worked his ass off. He practiced relentlessly.
When someone suggested to Gretzky that he had a God-given talent, Gretzky said something along the lines of no, it was a Walter given talent. Walter always told him the smart approach was to go where the puck will be, not where it is..
I am not discounting the effort he put in or the coaching he received...what I am saying is that his effort, passion, coaching AND genius made him the greatest of all time. Many have a great work ethic and passion with great coaches just to end up mediocre or not making the NHL at all. Gretzky had a level of genius that made him the GOAT - with or without Walter.
Keith and Brent also had Walter as a father yet never made a career in the NHL. Wayne was blessed with genius that nobody else has.
Last edited by a moderator:
Looking over the post from
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/sh...&postcount=21]
The guy who posted it noted that two of the games (below)
12/05/86 Oilers 4 @ Pens 2 Lemieux 0-0-0 Gretzky 0-3-3
2/24/87 Oilers 2 @ Pens 5 Lemieux 0-0-0 Gretzky 0-1-1
were unaccounted for...meaning, there was no proof from any online source that shows Lemieux played those games and got 0 points, or simply missed the game for whatever reason.
I don't know what source was used to gather all their head-to-head game stats, but because all their head-to-head games before and after the above dates were accounted for, I find it odd that these two are a mystery.
The thread was posted in 2011. Since then, has there been a site created that a person could go to and find all-inclusive, fully-complete game stats of all past games, including rosters?
Would be cool to fill in the 2 gaps and make their stats 'official'.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/sh...&postcount=21]
The guy who posted it noted that two of the games (below)
12/05/86 Oilers 4 @ Pens 2 Lemieux 0-0-0 Gretzky 0-3-3
2/24/87 Oilers 2 @ Pens 5 Lemieux 0-0-0 Gretzky 0-1-1
were unaccounted for...meaning, there was no proof from any online source that shows Lemieux played those games and got 0 points, or simply missed the game for whatever reason.
I don't know what source was used to gather all their head-to-head game stats, but because all their head-to-head games before and after the above dates were accounted for, I find it odd that these two are a mystery.
The thread was posted in 2011. Since then, has there been a site created that a person could go to and find all-inclusive, fully-complete game stats of all past games, including rosters?
Would be cool to fill in the 2 gaps and make their stats 'official'.
Problem solved....the original thread where the head-to-head stats were posted, had someone reply with 'newspaper article' proof that Lemieux DID play those 2 unaccounted games.
Ad
Upcoming events
-
-
GAME 7 - North Bay Battalion @ Oshawa Generals - Series tied 3-3Wagers: 2Staked: $850.00Event closes- Updated:
-
-
Series Winner Florida Panthers vs Boston BruinsWagers: 11Staked: $109,041.00Event closes- Updated:
-