Any experience with the HSL - Hockey Super League (minor hockey in AB / BC)?

[Yukon Joe]

This is a bit of a long shot but I'll throw it out there - does anyone have any experience with the HSL (Hockey Super League) in Alberta or BC?

It's not recognized or supported by Hockey Canada. It's supposedly an "elite" development option for kids. Kids play "showcase"-style games where they play 4 games over a weekend once per month with practices the rest of the time. Sounds like lots of travel is involved.

I ask because my kid has gotten invites from a couple of different teams to come and try out. I know it's grown a lot, but because we've always been in Hockey Canada accredited programs I don't have any first hand experience with it. I'm 95% sure we'll stick with what we know, but curious if anyone did have first-hand experience.

HSL - Hockey Super League : Website by RAMP InterActive

Website by RAMPInterActive.com

hockeysuperleague.ca

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[Slats432]

#cashgrab

 

[Yukon Joe]

#cashgrab

That's the thing with so much of hockey - how much are you just being pitched a line?

I'm not against people making money - and most of the people aren't earning a living off of hockey, so it's just a side business at best. But then how much can you trust whet they're saying?

Which is why I asked here if anyone had personal experience with the HSL.

 

[Slats432]

"Tryout" for a rogue league so you get the "honour" of playing (paying) there, way too much while being pitched a whole pile of garbage while you spend to try to get your kid to the next level.

1. Tryout for club hockey. (KC, MLAC, CAC, SSAC) The level is excellent and once you get to the junior tryouts, there is no difference between club and academy players. The clubs are all non profits and the coaching is just as good and the guys who run the programs don't make $75-100K a year.

2. If you don't make club, play federation. It is about the experience along the way.

 

[Yukon Joe]

"Tryout" for a rogue league so you get the "honour" of playing (paying) there, way too much while being pitched a whole pile of garbage while you spend to try to get your kid to the next level.

1. Tryout for club hockey. (KC, MLAC, CAC, SSAC) The level is excellent and once you get to the junior tryouts, there is no difference between club and academy players. The clubs are all non profits and the coaching is just as good and the guys who run the programs don't make $75-100K a year.

2. If you don't make club, play federation. It is about the experience along the way.

I'm 95% sure that's what we're doing. Kid tried out for club last year, was in the last round of cuts. Probably has a good shot at making a team. If not going back to play with his buddies again is also a good option.

But do you have any actual experience with HSL? They definitely are out there and growing.

 

[Slats432]

I have been part of the hockey scene in Edmonton for over 20 years I put my kid through the elite program and thoroughly researched every league. I have coached minor hockey for many years. I am familiar with every stream from Novice to Pro.

 

[Oil Gauge]

#cashgrab

I really don't think that's what this league is about. From what I have seen they are heavily investing in growing their league, not sucking money out of it. I think I heard that they even bought a rink so they could get better ice times for their showcases. They also run a 4 man officiating crew for their higher levels, this obviously cost them more money.

I don't think the level of play is quite at the top yet but it seems to be getting better every year. They've attracted local families around Edmonton like Pisani, Schwartz, Belle, Smyth, Strudwick.

 

[Slats432]

I really don't think that's what this league is about. From what I have seen they are heavily investing in growing their league, not sucking money out of it. I think I heard that they even bought a rink so they could get better ice times for their showcases. They also run a 4 man officiating crew for their higher levels, this obviously cost them more money.

I don't think the level of play is quite at the top yet but it seems to be getting better every year. They've attracted local families around Edmonton like Pisani, Schwartz, Belle, Smyth, Strudwick.

Yes, they attracted them with paid coaches, and high costs, so those who can afford it do. In the long run it just hurts the game. Those with money chase the dream, and the rest are left behind. Where do you think the money comes from to buy a rink? Kind of like Vegas. Casinos don't build themselves.

And you mentioned they invested heavily. Who invests "heavily" without the intent of getting money back. No one I know.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Yes, they attracted them with paid coaches, and high costs, so those who can afford it do. In the long run it just hurts the game. Those with money chase the dream, and the rest are left behind. Where do you think the money comes from to buy a rink? Kind of like Vegas. Casinos don't build themselves.

And you mentioned they invested heavily. Who invests "heavily" without the intent of getting money back. No one I know.

Okay, but you're conflating a few different things here. There's "whats good for the game" and "what's good for my kid". And I have to be honest - I'm a little more focused on the latter not the former.

I haven't heard of HSL buying a rink. When I look they seem to be using a crazy different assortments of rinks, including some pretty far away rural ones.

And you suggest club hockey. My kid tried out for SSAC last year, will almost certainly do so again. But it's not like that is a cheap option either! I think the fee was $3-$5k, PLUS a substantial cash call every month. Plus travel on top of that.

Like I said - I was just curious if anyone had first-hand experience with them. Slats you clearly have a strong opinion, but it's not clear to me you have any such personal experience.

 

[Slats432]

I have done all this research before. I have been a coach, director, scout in AB for 20 years but you go with your own opinion because you only want one that validates not contests. I will stay out of your thread now. Good luck.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I have done all this research before. I have been a coach, director, scout in AB for 20 years but you go with your own opinion because you only want one that validates not contests. I will stay out of your thread now. Good luck.

To the extent I have an opinion it is against HSL - but Mrs Joe is asking about it so I want to get more information.

You've done the research, but you won't share it with me (not that you have to). Instead you just give me your conclusion and tell me to trust you.

If you want to take it to PM that's cool with me. Or not.


Edit: just as one example of the impact of HSL, as mentioned we live in the SSAC zone. SSAC is going to only have 2 U13 teams not 3 like last year, because too many kids are opting out to play HSL they don't want to dilute the talent pool.

 

[Slats432]

What did you hope to find out? I have talked to dozens and dozens of people that have gone both ways. I have scouted academy and club kids. In my analysis the amount of kids that truly benefit by going the academy/rogue league route is minimal. I scouted kids at many jr A camps. There was no tangible difference between club and academy players. So with many years of experience talking to hockey families the cost benefit isn't there.

 

[Yukon Joe]

What did you hope to find out? I have talked to dozens and dozens of people that have gone both ways. I have scouted academy and club kids. In my analysis the amount of kids that truly benefit by going the academy/rogue league route is minimal. I scouted kids at many jr A camps. There was no tangible difference between club and academy players. So with many years of experience talking to hockey families the cost benefit isn't there.

So side question - you bring up hockey academies. That's like Okanagan, NAX and the like?

I thought that was a different sort of issue. They are now affiliated with Hockey Canada and are not "rebels". They also seem to place a lot of kids in junior hockey.

But they're also CRAZY expensive, so not something we've even considered up to now.

 

[Oil Gauge]

Yes, they attracted them with paid coaches, and high costs, so those who can afford it do. In the long run it just hurts the game. Those with money chase the dream, and the rest are left behind. Where do you think the money comes from to buy a rink? Kind of like Vegas. Casinos don't build themselves.

And you mentioned they invested heavily. Who invests "heavily" without the intent of getting money back. No one I know.

They didn't attract them with paid coaches, they are the coaches. They chose to take their kids to the HSL, maybe so they could coach them.

I didn't say they invested heavily, I said they seem heavily invested, as in committed to making the league successful. Not necessarily through financial investment. But they definitely don't seem afraid to invest money in their league. The league is run by silent ice, which also owns the Seattle Thunderbirds, the Stoney plain eagles, the spruce Grove saints, ect. The leckelt brothers who are executive directors of silent ice also owned silent aire which they just sold to Johnson controls for $870M. I'd assume that's where they get the money to buy a rink. While it would be foolish to think they don't want to make money from the HSL it really doesn't look like it's a priority as they expand their league.

 

[Slats432]

So side question - you bring up hockey academies. That's like Okanagan, NAX and the like?

I thought that was a different sort of issue. They are now affiliated with Hockey Canada and are not "rebels". They also seem to place a lot of kids in junior hockey.

But they're also CRAZY expensive, so not something we've even considered up to now.

Historically all academies were rogue leagues. They used tactics like reduced fees for truly elite players to come to academy so other players would want to play there. The HSL is a similar type of organization. There is a new academy league called the JPHL which is using the HSL as a feeder system, bragging on social media about "Signing" U14 players.

Hockey Canada was put into a position where it had no choice because those players were going to be on their provincial and national teams regardless. It was only the last few years and last couple that academies could enter the John Reid and Mac's Midget (U18AAA) tournament.

If vague memory serves me correctly, the HSL started because they didn't want to follow Hockey Alberta Rules.

And not to be disrespectful Oil Gauge, if you don't think anyone investing millions of dollars in something doesn't have money as their priority, that seems a little naïve.

 

[Yukon Joe]

They didn't attract them with paid coaches, they are the coaches. They chose to take their kids to the HSL, maybe so they could coach them.

I didn't say they invested heavily, I said they seem heavily invested, as in committed to making the league successful. Not necessarily through financial investment. But they definitely don't seem afraid to invest money in their league. The league is run by silent ice, which also owns the Seattle Thunderbirds, the Stoney plain eagles, the spruce Grove saints, ect. The leckelt brothers who are executive directors of silent ice also owned silent aire which they just sold to Johnson controls for $870M. I'd assume that's where they get the money to buy a rink. While it would be foolish to think they don't want to make money from the HSL it really doesn't look like it's a priority as they expand their league.

HSL is still parent-coached? I would have thought paid, independent coaches would have been part of the appeal.

Parent coaches can be quite a mixed bag. My experiences have mostly been quite positive, and to the extent they've been negative it's because the coach didn't seem to put a lot of planning into the year, not that they were bad coaches. But still the difference between an excellent coach and a merely good coach can be huge.

My oldest kid is doing spring hockey. I know not everyone loves spring hockey, but it's what he really wanted to do. The one thing though that I do appreciate about the team he's on is it is NOT parent-coached.

 

[Slats432]

HSL is still parent-coached? I would have thought paid, independent coaches would have been part of the appeal.

Parent coaches can be quite a mixed bag. My experiences have mostly been quite positive, and to the extent they've been negative it's because the coach didn't seem to put a lot of planning into the year, not that they were bad coaches. But still the difference between an excellent coach and a merely good coach can be huge.

My oldest kid is doing spring hockey. I know not everyone loves spring hockey, but it's what he really wanted to do. The one thing though that I do appreciate about the team he's on is it is NOT parent-coached.

Parent coached? I am not sure of each team's economic model, but I would say many coaches make their primary source of income from hockey. Like for example if you own a hockey development company and use the coaching to recruit.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Historically all academies were rogue leagues. They used tactics like reduced fees for truly elite players to come to academy so other players would want to play there. The HSL is a similar type of organization. There is a new academy league called the JPHL which is using the HSL as a feeder system, bragging on social media about "Signing" U14 players.

JFC - I hadn't heard of this before.

Looking at their website - while I appreciate they are upfront about their price, I can not imagine for a cost of $12,500 per year can be seen as "attainable".

What really gets me is there's no possible need for kids to need to regularly travel out of town to play hockey. Playing a single tournament out of town just for the experience of it is one thing, but there's no end of talented kids locally to play against.

 

[Slats432]

JFC - I hadn't heard of this before.

Looking at their website - while I appreciate they are upfront about their price, I can not imagine for a cost of $12,500 per year can be seen as "attainable".

What really gets me is there's no possible need for kids to need to regularly travel out of town to play hockey. Playing a single tournament out of town just for the experience of it is one thing, but there's no end of talented kids locally to play against.

Junior Prospects Hockey League. Another way to try to extract way too much money for parents chasing the dream.

There may be those who find the HSL as a great development model. It may be for some. Just like Academy might be the best route for some. If a kid is top 1%, then it might make some sense. For the other's their evolution through Federation and Club Hockey is a great experience. If there is someone that can justify going to academy/HSL for their specific programming, just understand they are businesses and are for profit.

Just like Spring AAA hockey. I reffed a tournament last weekend. Several of the games would have been no better than Tier 4 Federation with a couple decent kids on each team. But, you pay to play AAA Spring hockey so you can say you did or the parents can say their kid played AAA Spring hockey.

I preferred Club hockey because it is a community. You are part of the club and no one is making huge money off your participation. If your kid makes good then great.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Just like Spring AAA hockey. I reffed a tournament last weekend. Several of the games would have been no better than Tier 4 Federation with a couple decent kids on each team. But, you pay to play AAA Spring hockey so you can say you did or the parents can say their kid played AAA Spring hockey.

I preferred Club hockey because it is a community. You are part of the club and no one is making huge money off your participation. If your kid makes good then great.

I dunno. I mentioned my kid is playing spring hockey (though they claim to only be AA). He played Tier 2 club hockey in the winter. I can definitely notice the improvement in quality of play by all the teams on the ice - everything is just moving a bit quicker. The difference between this and Tier 4 would be even more stark.

But I really can't say one way or another if they're true "AA" level talent out there, and I don't say "My kid is playing AA spring hockey".

 

[Slats432]

Not every Spring hockey league/team/group does the same thing. The tournament I did has the spring teams that talk about AAA hockey. I know of lots of kids who did that growing up and talked about playing AAA Spring hockey.

 

[Oil Gauge]

HSL is still parent-coached? I would have thought paid, independent coaches would have been part of the appeal.

Parent coaches can be quite a mixed bag. My experiences have mostly been quite positive, and to the extent they've been negative it's because the coach didn't seem to put a lot of planning into the year, not that they were bad coaches. But still the difference between an excellent coach and a merely good coach can be huge.

My oldest kid is doing spring hockey. I know not everyone loves spring hockey, but it's what he really wanted to do. The one thing though that I do appreciate about the team he's on is it is NOT parent-coached.

It depends on the franchise I think. A lot of the ones I know have either played or coached in the NHL or a high level. It's not like minor hockey either where you are just stuck with what ever coach there is for what ever team you make. You know when you agree to play for a team who the coach is and what their credentials are

 

[Slats432]

It depends on the franchise I think. A lot of the ones I know have either played or coached in the NHL or a high level. It's not like minor hockey either where you are just stuck with what ever coach there is for what ever team you make. You know when you agree to play for a team who the coach is and what their credentials are

Which is by design. That is what you are paying the big dollars for, and if that is for you, then good on you. Paid professional coaches are worth something.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I heard an ad for the JPHL on the radio yesterday. I looked at them again, and somehow that led me to look at their twitter feeds. @Slats432 was indeed correct that there is something hilarious about posting these "signing" pictures of a bunch of 13-14 year olds. It did look like everyone they were "signing" was playing HSL last year, and not club hockey.

I hadn't realized it though but my wife signed up my oldest kid for HSL tryouts. She was very much "well it's $50 for 4 sessions, I don't think we want to go that way, but it's cheap extra ice time". But I sure hope we don't get talked into doing it. His first tryout was last night - Mrs Joe said he looked really good out there (but that could easily just reflect weaker opposition). Apparently all they were doing was 4 on 4 scrimmage - maybe they didn't have enough players for 5 on 5?

 

[Slats432]

I don't wake up every morning giving a crap about the HSL. It always sounds like you are looking for the next idea to help your kid make the next level. There are some principles that are always true.

1. If you are a good player, they will find you. It doesn't matter if you play Club, HSL, Academy....etc
2. The key to success is making a plan based on the player. Off-season, in-season. Rest. Training. Nutrition. Other sports.
3. There is no magic ingredient that creates a successful hockey player. Overbearing parents end up ruining more hockey players then helping them succeed.