Answering for the past

[Alf Silfversson]

\

no, what I am suggesting is, you win cups with Sid, Gino, and Ovi, et-all. Mid range players are needed to complete the team. Star players are needed to do the heavy lifting. Connor's issue, he does not have the full complement to reach that magic top 11 number. Cups are won by globally talented players, in their prime, with lots of them. Top 6 forwards, top 4 defencemen, a starting goalie. 11 players that must come to you principally via the draft. So at one first round and one second round per year, you have about 15 years to get 11 players. That is 11 out of 30, or slightly over 33%...The Sens have been at closer to 10% and not 33%. Eleven years of batting 0.10 and no one took them out of the lineup!!!! With Karlsson, they hot a Grand Slam. With Folignio a double..the rest of the time, they were striking out or hitting isolated singles.

LOL. What is this even?

No one took them out of the lineup? Umm, we've had multiple GMs in the stretch you've arbitrarily selected, so yeah, people have been "taken out of the lineup".

People tend to win with 1st and 2nd overall picks like Geno and Sid. Yup. They don't win with 15th and 18th overall all that often, although we came pretty close with EK.

I'm leaning towards this being a troll job, TBH.

 

[SensontheRush]

Butt goyz were the Stinley Crap Pa ride aht?

 

[starling]

Funny I just googled some articles with regards to team draft success and the first one I came across has this team leading the way (Sep 2018):

 

[Adele Dazeem]

This isn't a problem solely affecting the Senators; all teams have bad drafts in hindsight.

 

[Stylizer1]

Here is a similar but more granular chart from SN...

The take away that this chart adds is that by the middle of the 1st round, odds are about 50% that a player drafted will play 200 games.

Now, consider that a chart like this likes picks such as Ceci, Cowen and Lazar while many here consider them busts. To account for that, they made two more charts. One that identified the average pts per game for a draft spot.

And another chart that multiplied the probability of success of each draft position by the average production (PTS/GP) for a skater selected there,

By pick 5, the value has fallen off a cliff. By picks 10-60, the value difference isn't as big as one might think.

Flipping a coin and losing on picks 9 (Cowen), 15 (Ceci), 17 (Lazar) are balanced out by hitting homeruns on 15 (Karlsson), 18 (Chabot) along with a solid pick in White. We probably still fall a touch behind on 1st round picks because of Noesen and Puempel, but expectations for those picks were probably too high in the first place

It's also worth mentioning 1st round picks probably look better than the are in charts like this because teams give their first round pick the benefit of the doubt, and are likely to play them more before giving up when compared to a later round pick.

The NHL are responsible for global warming?

 

[bert]

Of your list
1) Maszaros..a few good seasons, then became a journey man and out of the league relatively young
2) Foligno...His prime years were/are in Columbus..other than last seasons mild run, relatively little to show for it. Yes, it led to Methot, but that reflects on Columbus bad management, not Ottawa good
3) Cowan was out of the league at 25-26 years old and was playing poorly for the 2 years prior!!
4) ZIBO,,playing well,,,on a Rangers team almost as bad as the Sens!!! when the Rangers improve, he will be gone
5) Noesen..26 years old and has ~160 NHL games..is a comfortable 4th liner on a BAD Devils team..remember where they drafted this year
6) Chabot, White and outwards..way too soon.That is why I left them off.

So, by my count one star in Karlsson, 2 - 3 iffy's and in 11 years (04-14), 6 or 7 busts. Which does not include the 2 years with no pick. Repeat for round 2 and you get an even higher number of busts/marginal players.

I respect your post..tell me where the Stanley cup parade is and has been the last 12 or so years. The 2007 cup run was on the back of players drafted pre 2004. Since 2007, check average finish, playoff appearance, playoff successes, etc. and they are all poor.

Why dont you actually review the charts multiple posters provided of the probability of a player being an NHL player. Maybe once you understand that data you can re visit the argument you are trying to make and come to the realization that your expectations massively miss the actual relativity of the production of the picks.

Your Nick Paul post in his thread also made no sense. In Nick Pauls draft plus 1 and 2 years he elevated his prospect level to a late first rounder in terms of his probability of playing. He also has some really nice tools you seem to be unable to identify.

VALID STUFF..but I need an answer. By your theory they have done well...so where has the Stanley Cup parade been the last 12 years. Check out their average finish. Number of time sin the playoffs. Series wins in the playoffs, etc. All put them in the bottom half of the league. And all coincide with the 2004 start of poor drafts. The 07 cup run was thanks to earlier draft, by 08, the team needed the 04 and forward drafts to kick in..They never did.

Ironically the draft is where the sens have been most productive its the asset management in trades and retaining the talent they develop that are the organizations obvious and glaring major weaknesses.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I am not concerned about their drafting and development.

My concerns lie entirely within the realms of asset management, budget allocation, finances available, and club policies/direction.

 

[Gin and tonic]

Why dont you actually review the charts multiple posters provided of the probability of a player being an NHL player. Maybe once you understand that data you can re visit the argument you are trying to make and come to the realization that your expectations massively miss the actual relativity of the production of the picks.

Your Nick Paul post in his thread also made no sense. In Nick Pauls draft plus 1 and 2 years he elevated his prospect level to a late first rounder in terms of his probability of playing. He also has some really nice tools you seem to be unable to identify.



Ironically the draft is where the sens have been most productive its the asset management in trades and retaining the talent they develop that are the organizations obvious and glaring major weaknesses.

Okay..you win..just do me one favour..1) wake me up when they make the playoffs. 2) Wake me up when they finish the regular season in the top 10. 3) Wake me up when the reach a cup final...4) wake me up when the win one. As long as they continue to draft as they have, I am going to be shocked at anything past wake up call 2) .

Yes, you need the high end drafts, but Edmonton had McDavid, Draisaitl, and a hwole host. And have little to show for it. Why? no other quality players in rounds 2 and some of their first rounders where crap. By comparison, some NHL teams have enjoyed near uninterrupted success, all due to quality drafting. And with little stopping at the bottom. Hello Detroit. Hello Habs.
The Islander a dozen years of high draft picks. nothing.
The Cayotes, similar
Buffalo, the same

As for Paul.. a 25 year old, that may crack the line up. A guy who could not crack the lineup of a 30th and 31st team the last two years. Gabriel Gagne is 22, a high second round. The team traded up to get him. He was buried in the minors. and then shipped off..we were not screaming to get him here. Anyone fussing about the 3 to 4 guys who are 25 or above in the minors? We gave Spezza away. Nick Paul is the last piece. Management needs to save face. If he was their own pick, some quiet Friday in July, he would appear on the waiver wire and be gone and forgotten. We are so desperate, that we are clinging to a 25 year old, 4th rounder and see him as the Messiah!!! When we should be going to Europe and getting near 30 year olds who failed to make it the first time around (this one is a cynical joke). Come on guys, the Nick Pauls of this world are plentiful...Paul's 1 plus 2 years..he elevated..that was 5 years ago!!!! Isn't it about time to get going?

 

[Gin and tonic]

LOL. What is this even?

No one took them out of the lineup? Umm, we've had multiple GMs in the stretch you've arbitrarily selected, so yeah, people have been "taken out of the lineup".

People tend to win with 1st and 2nd overall picks like Geno and Sid. Yup. They don't win with 15th and 18th overall all that often, although we came pretty close with EK.

I'm leaning towards this being a troll job, TBH.

so where is Edmonton's cups? where are the Islanders, Coyotes and Sabers? They have all drafted very high the last dozen years. Yes, you do need those 2-3 high end, top 3 picks..but needing 2 top lines, 4 top defensemen and a starting goalie. Still leaves you about 8-9 players short. Those had better be above average and generally come from the first or second rounds... The Bruins reached the cup final with no top picks..but Bergeron, Chara, Pasternak, Marchand, Lucic in his day, Macvoy, etc. were all first or second (Less Marchand). Go through St-Louis' lineup.

Stars win, they need very above average players around them and "worker bees" to chew up minutes while they rest.

A proper build is 2-3 stars, 7-9 next tier talent ..and the remaining 11 worker bees. Ottawa has always had the 2-3 stars, it has always had the 11 worker bees...Guess what has been missing?

 

[BondraTime]

Okay..you win..just do me one favour..1) wake me up when they make the playoffs. 2) Wake me up when they finish the regular season in the top 10. 3) Wake me up when the reach a cup final...4) wake me up when the win one. As long as they continue to draft as they have, I am going to be shocked at anything past wake up call 2) .

Yes, you need the high end drafts, but Edmonton had McDavid, Draisaitl, and a hwole host. And have little to show for it. Why? no other quality players in rounds 2 and some of their first rounders where crap. By comparison, some NHL teams have enjoyed near uninterrupted success, all due to quality drafting. And with little stopping at the bottom. Hello Detroit. Hello Habs.
The Islander a dozen years of high draft picks. nothing.
The Cayotes, similar
Buffalo, the same

As for Paul.. a 25 year old, that may crack the line up. A guy who could not crack the lineup of a 30th and 31st team the last two years. Gabriel Gagne is 22, a high second round. The team traded up to get him. He was buried in the minors. and then shipped off..we were not screaming to get him here. Anyone fussing about the 3 to 4 guys who are 25 or above in the minors? We gave Spezza away. Nick Paul is the last piece. Management needs to save face. If he was their own pick, some quiet Friday in July, he would appear on the waiver wire and be gone and forgotten. We are so desperate, that we are clinging to a 25 year old, 4th rounder and see him as the Messiah!!! When we should be going to Europe and getting near 30 year olds who failed to make it the first time around (this one is a cynical joke). Come on guys, the Nick Pauls of this world are plentiful...Paul's 1 plus 2 years..he elevated..that was 5 years ago!!!! Isn't it about time to get going?

Habs successful 1st and 2nd round picks from 2004-2014. They hit 3/5 of their successful pics in the same draft.

1. Max Pachioretty
2. P.K Subban
3. Ryan McDounagh (traded away)
4. Alex Galchenyuk (3rd overall, traded away)
5. Carey Price (5th overall)

Habs unsuccessful 1st and 2nd round pics from 2004-2014
1. Kyle Chipchura
2. Guielleme Lattendresse
3. David Ficsher
4. Ben Maxwell
5. Mathieu Carle
6. Danny Kristo
7. Louis Leblanc
8. Jarred Tinordi
9. Nathan Beaulieu
10. Sebastion Collberg
11. Dylan Thrower
12. Mike McCarron
13. Jacob de la Rose
14. Zach Fucale
15. Nakita Sherbak

Lehkkonen is an NHLer on another team now

Detroit did great when they had Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Krownwall, Datsyuk leading the way. Now that they are leaning on their young draft picks since they have departed and deteriorated, they have been bottom 5 in the league.

 

[Gin and tonic]

Habs successful 1st and 2nd round picks from 2004-2014. They hit 3/5 of their successful pics in the same draft.

1. Max Pachioretty
2. P.K Subban
3. Ryan McDounagh (traded away)
4. Alex Galchenyuk (3rd overall, traded away)
5. Carey Price (5th overall)

Habs unsuccessful 1st and 2nd round pics from 2004-2014
1. Kyle Chipchura
2. Guielleme Lattendresse
3. David Ficsher
4. Ben Maxwell
5. Mathieu Carle
6. Danny Kristo
7. Louis Leblanc
8. Jarred Tinordi
9. Nathan Beaulieu
10. Sebastion Collberg
11. Dylan Thrower
12. Mike McCarron
13. Jacob de la Rose
14. Zach Fucale
15. Nakita Sherbak

Lehkkonen is an NHLer on another team now

Detroit did great when they had Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Krownwall, Datsyuk leading the way. Now that they are leaning on their young draft picks since they have departed and deteriorated, they have been bottom 5 in the league.

Montreal has actually had a better stretch than Ottawa the last 6 to 8 seasons. And have won 5 to Ottawa 3 playoff series.They have on a small number of occasions cracked the top 10..Ottawa' high water mark has been 13th.
Detroit came off nearly 25 years of incredible success, forgive them if they have suffered the last 2-3 years. And other than Stevie Y., I cannot remember a top 3 pick. And if Stevie Y. does half as good a job in Detroit as he did in Tampa, they will be right back on top.

The harsh reality is; the Sens have not drafted well. Not well enough to compete. And given we are a very small market, we cannot play in the free agency world. It leaves the team one option,,,beat the competition at the draft table. My post is in regards of; How the heck do they go year in, year out, making one bad selection after another, and no one calls them on it. Listen to non Ottawa Radio..to guys who don't have to suck up...they blast Ottawa management and Ottawa drafting. Ottawa, Edmonton, Buffalo, Arizona and the Islanders are all neck and neck for poor drafts the last 15 or so years, excluding the last 3. And all the while, no one asks why was this allowed to happen? No one is asking the deep questions of why? is it poor scouting? Is it limited resources? we are in the middle of two junior leagues. We have the Q and the OHL in our back yard. On any weekend, you can see at least 1 game of each league. What is the staff of the Dallas stars suppose to say?

 

[BondraTime]

Montreal has actually had a better stretch than Ottawa the last 6 to 8 seasons. And have won 5 to Ottawa 3 playoff series.They have on a small number of occasions cracked the top 10..Ottawa' high water mark has been 13th.
Detroit came off nearly 25 years of incredible success, forgive them if they have suffered the last 2-3 years. And other than Stevie Y., I cannot remember a top 3 pick. And if Stevie Y. does half as good a job in Detroit as he did in Tampa, they will be right back on top.

The harsh reality is; the Sens have not drafted well. Not well enough to compete. And given we are a very small market, we cannot play in the free agency world. It leaves the team one option,,,beat the competition at the draft table. My post is in regards of; How the heck do they go year in, year out, making one bad selection after another, and no one calls them on it. Listen to non Ottawa Radio..to guys who don't have to suck up...they blast Ottawa management and Ottawa drafting. Ottawa, Edmonton, Buffalo, Arizona and the Islanders are all neck and neck for poor drafts the last 15 or so years, excluding the last 3. And all the while, no one asks why was this allowed to happen? No one is asking the deep questions of why? is it poor scouting? Is it limited resources? we are in the middle of two junior leagues. We have the Q and the OHL in our back yard. On any weekend, you can see at least 1 game of each league. What is the staff of the Dallas stars suppose to say?

The Habs have won 3 series in the past 9 years, the Sens have won 3 series the past 9 years. If you want to go back from 2004-2010, The Habs had 3 series wins and a run to the ECF, the Sens had 4 series wins and a trip to the Cup finals.

The Red Wings did it on the backs of Nick Lidstrom (drafted in 89'...) Pavel Datsyuk (6th round pick), Henrick Zetterberg (7th round pick), Nick Kronwall (drafted in 00'), Dan Cleary (drafted in 97), Brian Rafalski (signed out of college in 00'), etc.

You're the one saying they and Montreal were successful because of their 1st's and 2nd's being better than Ottawa's from 2004-2014, I'm just proving you wrong, and showing how you're just jumping from one goalpost to the next, adding absolute fluff that has nothing to do with anything making it even tougher to decipher you're already convoluted opinion.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

The Habs have won 3 series in the past 9 years, the Sens have won 3 series the past 9 years.

I really thought that was wrong for a second. Man... it's true.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

so where is Edmonton's cups? where are the Islanders, Coyotes and Sabres? They have all drafted very high the last dozen years. Yes, you do need those 2-3 high end, top 3 picks..but needing 2 top lines, 4 top defensemen and a starting goalie. Still leaves you about 8-9 players short. Those had better be above average and generally come from the first or second rounds... The Bruins reached the cup final with no top picks..but Bergeron, Chara, Pasternak, Marchand, Lucic in his day, Macvoy, etc. were all first or second (Less Marchand). Go through St-Louis' lineup.

Stars win, they need very above average players around them and "worker bees" to chew up minutes while they rest.

A proper build is 2-3 stars, 7-9 next tier talent ..and the remaining 11 worker bees. Ottawa has always had the 2-3 stars, it has always had the 11 worker bees...Guess what has been missing?

What is your point here?

Because Edmonton, Buffalo and Arizona have sucked at ACTUAL GAME PLAY that we must suck at drafting?!?!?

This makes no sense. It REALLY helps to get a bunch of top 5 picks. It's not essential but it sure helps. From there you need to identify talent in the later rounds. You need to retain talent. You need to have solid coaching throughout your organization. And you need to make good trades and signings.

The Ottawa Senators were pretty close to a model franchise for a number of years. They've done a nosedive in recent seasons for obvious reasons. Those obvious reasons do not include drafting, but rather pretty much everything but drafting.

 

[DrEasy]

Drafting is the one thing I wouldn't complain about. We usually picked late, and we did pretty well with what we had. And we had a few late round picks that were AWESOME.

Why haven't we been successful despite drafting well? Here's a laundry list:

1- we didn't pick high enough to get the superstars,
2- corollary to item 1, maybe we should have tanked harder when it was clear we weren't going to contend.
3- our trade record was middling during Murray, is downright catastrophic with Dorion
4- budget limitations
5- corollary to 4: no ability to complement our players with top free agents
6- corollary to 4: lack of a proper analytics department to adapt to modern NHL, to extract the most out of what we have, and to target better players in trades
7- corollary to 4: no scouting where there's plenty of assets to be found (e.g., Russia)
8- some bad luck with injuries (but we can't control this, and many other teams can claim this as well), and worse: players insisting on playing through injuries or not fully healed/ready yet, hurting more than helping.

It's actually amazing how well we did (up to Dorion that is) given the list above. If anything, it's the drafting, and the development of our picks, that kept us afloat as long as it did.

 

[Gin and tonic]

The Habs have won 3 series in the past 9 years, the Sens have won 3 series the past 9 years.

The Red Wings did it on the backs of Nick Lidstrom (drafted in 89'...) Pavel Datsyuk (6th round pick), Henrick Zetterberg (7th round pick), Nick Kronwall (drafted in 00'), Dan Cleary (drafted in 97), Brian Rafalski (signed out of college in 00'), etc.

You're the one saying they and Montreal were successful because of their 1st's and 2nd's being better than Ottawa's from 2004-2014, I'm just proving you wrong, and showing how you're just jumping from one goalpost to the next.

what I am saying is simple;
you need 2-3 stars..those generally come from the top 5 picks..or the Erik Karlssons' who are "accidents"
you need 7-9 next tier, yet still above average..those are generally a byproduct of first and second round picks..yes, you throw in the odd, 3rd, 4th rounder, etc.
then the bottom 11 or worker bees and they come from all rounds.

Adding the 2-3 stars, to the 7-9 next tier, puts you at 11. Needing them between the ages of 19 to 34. means 15 years. Yes, I know, trades, etc...but those are net gain=zero. Gain a free agent, loose one. Trade for a player, give one up. 15 years, needing 11 players, means one every 1.2 years kind of thing..thus every 2.4 first and second rounds had better produce one. You better not miss on too many years. If you do, all that happens is you create gaps in your line up. Gaps that you cannot fill. The Sens have missed a great deal. When Dorion had to go to Europe to get players a few years ago..that was pathetic. when 2, 3 or 4 years go by and all you have is some 3rd or 4th liner to show for your draft, you are finished. You are now 4-5 players short. Yes, other teams are almost as bad, but clearly not all teams are. Otherwise, the Sens would not be last.

As for the HABS, my apologies. I added something wrong somewhere in terms of their playoff wins. I got to 5, that included going back one year to year 10. Add years 11 and 12 and you add 1 more win, making them at 6..The sens for that same 12 years are still at 3..so accept my apology, I should have been more careful in my addition. But in the end, you must confess, since 2008, they have been the much better team. The Redwings, go back and see their last few playoff years..I surrender, first round exits each year, but a fair amount of 1st and second round draft picks. But, your point is valid, their real powerful success, came on the shoulders of players pre-2004. They are a lesser example than what I hope.

So, you win the argument. I hope you have enjoyed last and second to last...If you have not, no worries, a last or second to last is coming.

I absolutely love what I started today..It actually gave me an answer. How do they get away with it? ..your posts.... You are not even remotely questioning them. In fact, you are defending them..Average finish for the Sens since 2008 is outside the top 20...30 teams, now 31 team league. Outside the top 20!!!!!!. 6 seasons in, 6 seasons out of the playoffs...in a league where 16 of 30 teams once made it. Today it is 16 of 31.. so still better than half in, thus less than half out. Appreciate where these numbers will be in two years. Dorion and Melnyk must love you guys. Nine different coaches in 12 years, only 2 GM's. Shouldn't we be looking at a higher floor for the problem?

Okay..you convinced me. The Sens draft great...So now please tell me where the Stanley Cup parade has been all these years? I have searched the city over and over.

 

[bert]

Okay..you win..just do me one favour..1) wake me up when they make the playoffs. 2) Wake me up when they finish the regular season in the top 10. 3) Wake me up when the reach a cup final...4) wake me up when the win one. As long as they continue to draft as they have, I am going to be shocked at anything past wake up call 2) .

Yes, you need the high end drafts, but Edmonton had McDavid, Draisaitl, and a hwole host. And have little to show for it. Why? no other quality players in rounds 2 and some of their first rounders where crap. By comparison, some NHL teams have enjoyed near uninterrupted success, all due to quality drafting. And with little stopping at the bottom. Hello Detroit. Hello Habs.
The Islander a dozen years of high draft picks. nothing.
The Cayotes, similar
Buffalo, the same

As for Paul.. a 25 year old, that may crack the line up. A guy who could not crack the lineup of a 30th and 31st team the last two years. Gabriel Gagne is 22, a high second round. The team traded up to get him. He was buried in the minors. and then shipped off..we were not screaming to get him here. Anyone fussing about the 3 to 4 guys who are 25 or above in the minors? We gave Spezza away. Nick Paul is the last piece. Management needs to save face. If he was their own pick, some quiet Friday in July, he would appear on the waiver wire and be gone and forgotten. We are so desperate, that we are clinging to a 25 year old, 4th rounder and see him as the Messiah!!! When we should be going to Europe and getting near 30 year olds who failed to make it the first time around (this one is a cynical joke). Come on guys, the Nick Pauls of this world are plentiful...Paul's 1 plus 2 years..he elevated..that was 5 years ago!!!! Isn't it about time to get going?

So you didnt review any of the charts or listen to anyones counter arguments. Nick Paul isnt 25 either. Good to know for future discussions.

You really have no clue about anything if you think I haven’t been questioning them, including their drafting. I’ve been currently, extremely vocal criticizing them where they deserve it.

I’m sure you’re just an alt troll account, or hope so at least instead of the alternative.

Neither is a great option.

 

[BondraTime]

what I am saying is simple;
you need 2-3 stars..those generally come from the top 5 picks..or the Erik Karlssons' who are "accidents"
you need 7-9 next tier, yet still above average..those are generally a byproduct of first and second round picks..yes, you throw in the odd, 3rd, 4th rounder, etc.
then the bottom 11 or worker bees and they come from all rounds.

Adding the 2-3 stars, to the 7-9 next tier, puts you at 11. Needing them between the ages of 19 to 34. means 15 years. Yes, I know, trades, etc...but those are net gain=zero. Gain a free agent, loose one. Trade for a player, give one up. 15 years, needing 11 players, means one every 1.2 years kind of thing..thus every 2.4 first and second rounds had better produce one. You better not miss on too many years. If you do, all that happens is you create gaps in your line up. Gaps that you cannot fill. The Sens have missed a great deal. When Dorion had to go to Europe to get players a few years ago..that was pathetic. when 2, 3 or 4 years go by and all you have is some 3rd or 4th liner to show for your draft, you are finished. You are now 4-5 players short. Yes, other teams are almost as bad, but clearly not all teams are. Otherwise, the Sens would not be last.

As for the HABS, my apologies. I added something wrong somewhere in terms of their playoff wins. I got to 5, that included going back one year to year 10. Add years 11 and 12 and you add 1 more win, making them at 6..The sens for that same 12 years are still at 3..so accept my apology, I should have been more careful in my addition. But in the end, you must confess, since 2008, they have been the much better team. The Redwings, go back and see their last few playoff years..I surrender, first round exits each year, but a fair amount of 1st and second round draft picks. But, your point is valid, their real powerful success, came on the shoulders of players pre-2004. They are a lesser example than what I hope.

So, you win the argument. I hope you have enjoyed last and second to last...If you have not, no worries, a last or second to last is coming.

I absolutely love what I started today..It actually gave me an answer. How do they get away with it? ..your posts.... You are not even remotely questioning them. In fact, you are defending them..Average finish for the Sens since 2008 is outside the top 20...30 teams, now 31 team league. Outside the top 20!!!!!!. 6 seasons in, 6 seasons out of the playoffs...in a league where 16 of 30 teams once made it. Today it is 16 of 31.. so still better than half in, thus less than half out. Appreciate where these numbers will be in two years. Dorion and Melnyk must love you guys. Nine different coaches in 12 years, only 2 GM's. Shouldn't we be looking at a higher floor for the problem?

Okay..you convinced me. The Sens draft great...So now please tell me where the Stanley Cup parade has been all these years? I have searched the city over and over.

You really have no clue about anything if you think I haven’t been questioning them, including their drafting. I’ve been currently, extremely vocal criticizing them where they deserve it.

I’m sure you’re just an alt troll account, or hope so at least instead of the alternative.

 

[Gin and tonic]

I really thought that was wrong for a second. Man... it's true.

guy, add another 2-3 years. Since 2008..I got lost in my thought. I have talking 2008 since the beginning of the post. You are acting like lawyers. . The simple message I have been trying to send is: I don't believe they have drafted well. It is a giant myth surrounding this team, and the myth is of its draft success. That myth has allowed a status quo to remain. That myth has allowed management to get away with poor drafts. We blamed it on cost cutting. Remember Turis, well he stank after the trade. Other so called stars rarely succeeded after leaving. Chara aside!!! Between 1993 and 2003, it seemed like the next guy was coming, and no: not all were high picks. Then it dried up.

And when you make excuses for them, you let them off the hook and you lock yourselves into mediocrity. Heck, Detroit lost its head after 3 loosing seasons. Goodbye Holland, Hello Stevie Y. Dorion has been here as GM and prior to it as assistant and prior to it as chief scout for 10 years.. 10 of the worst years in the clubs history. prior to it, Murray. and all I have seen today is defending.

Okay, We thumbed our nose at Edmonton..Let's hope we are big enough, when they thumb their nose at us.

 

[Abandoneduser]

Trollbot

 

[BondraTime]

There’s literally a thread made by Administrators on this board in the past week because of all the people losing their minds at Management and Ownership.

The last thing that could be said about this place is people are too busy defending them

 

[bert]

guy, add another 2-3 years. Since 2008..I got lost in my thought. I have talking 2008 since the beginning of the post. You are acting like lawyers. . The simple message I have been trying to send is: I don't believe they have drafted well. It is a giant myth surrounding this team, and the myth is of its draft success. That myth has allowed a status quo to remain. That myth has allowed management to get away with poor drafts. We blamed it on cost cutting. Remember Turis, well he stank after the trade. Other so called stars rarely succeeded after leaving. Chara aside!!! Between 1993 and 2003, it seemed like the next guy was coming, and no: not all were high picks. Then it dried up.

And when you make excuses for them, you let them off the hook and you lock yourselves into mediocrity. Heck, Detroit lost its head after 3 loosing seasons. Goodbye Holland, Hello Stevie Y. Dorion has been here as GM and prior to it as assistant and prior to it as chief scout for 10 years.. 10 of the worst years in the clubs history. prior to it, Murray. and all I have seen today is defending.

Okay, We thumbed our nose at Edmonton..Let's hope we are big enough, when they thumb their nose at us.

No one is making any excuses for management everyone is extremely critical you just seem to be missing completely as to why management has performed so poorly.

 

[Gin and tonic]

So you didnt review any of the charts or listen to anyones counter arguments. Nick Paul isnt 25 either. Good to know for future discussions.

Guy,

I will buy the beer at the cup parade. I promise. You guys convinced me. Do you want me to get it now and keep it cold? how long does it last?
I reviewed the charts, yes, past about the 10 pick, you are sinking. I got you and got them. Edmonton, Buffalo, Arizona, etc. should all be Stanley cup winners and top 5 teams!!!! the people in those cities have been hearing that crap for years.
My apologies, Nick Paul is 24. A baby by hockey standards. They are drafted at 18, No?..so by 24, you are six years past that. And have had 6 NHL camps..A late bloomer..Okay, after he wins his hart, I will treat another beer.

Come on guy, I am beginning to wonder if you are the troll. Are you a Sens employee? No one has those charts this ready!!!!

 

[Cosmix]

I think your theory falls through with the most basic research and the onus falls far more on mismanagement than it does lackluster drafting, most visible at the 2009 draft and especially after the 2011 draft.

2004: D Andrej Meszaros. Priced himself out of Ottawa as an RFA and still led to acquiring Filip Kuba and a 2009 first.
2005: D Brian Lee. Well-established bust, not seemingly on anyone's radar at the time. Bad pick with hindsight.
2006: F Nick Foligno. Effective foot soldier while here, traded straight up for Marc Methot who was by far and away Karlsson's most effective D partner.
2007: F Jim O'Brien. Not a great pick, but late first rounders are far from a slam dunk. Nobody picked within the next ten picks had a better career.
2008: D Erik Karlsson. Nuff said.
2009: D Jared Cowen. Injury and lack of hockey IQ derailed him, but team fell victim to the sunken cost theory, refused to move him while he still had value and eventually were glad to be rid of him for scraps. Bad pick with hindsight, but was widely regarded as a top ten pick by most scouts.
2010: No pick. Traded for D David Rundblad, who was traded for Turris, who was traded for Duchene, who was traded for Abramov, Davisson and a first. Far from horrible asset management in the long view.
2011: F Mika Zibanejad. Traded for Brassard, traded for Gustavsson. Could squeak out a minor win in Gustavsson, but I think we'd all rather have a big-bodied top-six centre right now. Team sold before knowing what they had.
2011: F Stefan Noesen. Traded for Ryan while his value was at its highest. No harm here, though Ryan's lackluster play speaks more to a lack of pro scouting skill than it does amateur scouting.
2011: F Matt Puempel. Effective in Binghamton, always left us wanting more at the pro level. Especially considering the careers of players following him in the draft, bad pick.
2012: D Cody Ceci. Replace 'Injury' with 'Rushed into the NHL' and you can copy-paste the descriptor for Cowen.
2013: F Curtis Lazar. Bust. Bad pick with hindsight, but mid-first was the widely accepted range for him.
2014: No pick. Traded to Anaheim in the Bobby Ryan deal. Poor asset management.
2015: D Thomas Chabot and F Colin White. The future.
2016: F Logan Brown. Up-and-coming, too early to categorize one way or another.
2017: F Shane Bowers. Traded for Duchene. Too early to call, still hasn't played a game in the NHL.
2018: F Brady Tkachuk and D Jacob Bernard-Docker. The future, and too early to call, respectively.
2019: D Lassi Thompson. Too early to call, though losing our own first to Colorado was poor asset management.

In all, striking out on Lazar, a 2014 first round pick and selling too soon on Zibanejad are three big reasons why we aren't farther along than we are. But as far as the core of our team, without meaning to beat a dead horse: Mark Stone, Mike Hoffman, Erik Karlsson were all home-grown talents, at or near the peak of their careers, and surrounded by up-and-coming players. Busted first round picks were more or less made up by shrewd later round picks. The drafting is not on trial here nearly as much as the questionable player assessments, questionable trades and behind-the-scenes implosions.

Yes, good assessment although you did not mention how well Foligno turned out vs Methot. I disagree about the Zibanejad trade as I do not think Brassard or Gustavsson was a win fore the Senators at all. Trading Ziby and a second was a disastrous trade. And the Rundblad trade acquisition could have been turned into Tarasenko.

The GM of the team has done poorly in hiring coaching staff and assembling players into a SC contending team.

 

[Gin and tonic]

There’s literally a thread made by Administrators on this board in the past week because of all the people losing their minds at Management and Ownership.

The last thing that could be said about this place is people are too busy defending them

Guy..yes Melynk is a poor owner. Yes financial issues.. Bryden went broke..Firestone before him.. This team has never had money. And so, it must be the little engine that could. It must draft and draft "well". How long has it been since they had a Mike Fischer. Seemingly forever!!! When the team stands at the podium in June and say" With the first pick, the Sens select XXXXXXXXXX". Those are magic words. 2 to 3 years later, that xxxxxxxx must make your club and hopefully do so as a quality, top 11. If he fails to do so, you are in a world of hurt. And if too many years go by when those picks fail to do so, or if at best they evolve into bottom 11...you are dead. Whether you are the Sens or the Leafs...