Line Combos: Analysis of the New Lines

Crymson

Fire Holland
May 23, 2010
3,667
0
All of you have heard me endlessly grouse about Babcock's new line combinations. I'm going to shoot for a rational, non-angry analysis of their performance since being put together six games ago. I'll do this game by game.

The new lines were implemented on April 8th, following the April 5th loss against Montreal.

For reference, the new lines are as follows:

93 - 13 - 8
21 - 15 -14
26 - 43 - 11
20 - 41 -17

On to the games. Note that this will only examine even-strength goals, thus excepting goals scored on the power play; these are irrelevant to the topic at hand, for the obvious reason that the lines are different there. It is worth noting, however, that the power play line of Jurco, Sheahan, and Tatar (the very successful Kid Line) has done fairly well.

April 8th vs. Buffalo

1) Brendan Smith from Johan Franzen and Daniel Alfredsson. Datsyuk was also on the ice for this one; it took place during a line change that, for a transient period, put Franzen, Alfredsson, and Datsyuk together, with Alfredsson briefly replacing Abdelkader. Needless to say, this goal was not scored by one of the new forward lines.

2) Darren Helm from Kyle Quincey. This came shortly after an unsuccessful Red Wings power play. As has become usual in this event, Helm was temporarily on the ice for Glendening and Miller, a combination that has generally been successful. Again, not one of the new forward lines.

3) David Legwand from Drew Miller. Legwand got an easy entry into the zone and scored a five-hole goal that the goalie saw the whole way. This was an extremely soft goal that was not the product of much teamwork. It was scored by one of the new line combinations, but was solely an individual effort and as such does not really apply.

4) Pavel Datsyuk. This was an empty-net goal, as Datsyuk stole the puck from an opponent before lifting it into the empty net. Not applicable.

Tally: zero.


April 9th vs. Pittsburgh

1) Jurco from Alfredsson and Helm. This goal was scored by one of the new lines, needless to say. It was a garbage goal, but we'll count it anyhow.

2) Kindl from Tatar and Nyquist. Again the product of one of the new lines, though this was more the product of a perfect shot by Kindl and Sheahan being "pushed" (i.e. falling) into Fleury.

3) Sheahan from Kronwall. Sheahan was on the ice with the briefly reunited Kid Line (i.e. Tatar and Jurco). This line was put on the ice by Babcock near the end of the game and scored almost immediately. It's worth noting that Babcock only did this so that he could put Nyquist on for the extra skater if necessary. Great.

Tally: 2.


April 11th vs. Carolina.

No even-strength goals were scored. The single Red Wings goal was scored on the power play by Sheahan and assisted by (you guessed it!) Tatar and Jurco.

Tally: 0.


April 13th vs St. Louis


1) Abdelkader from Datsyuk and Lashoff. Datsyuk did all of the work here, threading a slick pass to Lashoff who bounced the puck off of Abdelkader and in. I guess we'll give a half-goal to this line, as this was a combination of Datsyuk's individual effort and a lucky bounce.

2) Sheahan from Tatar. Individual effort by Sheahan, who took the puck in and shot it through a screen and by Miller. Inapplicable.

2) Abdelkader from Kindl and Datsyuk. Another individual effort from Datsyuk, who took the puck up ice and fed Abdelkader for a deflection. Abdelkader did nothing beyond skating toward the net and keeping his stick on the ice. We'll give another half-goal for it.

Tally: 1.


April 18th vs. Boston.

1) Datsyuk from Franzen. Datsyuk skilfully managed to control a Franzen pass that otherwise would have been turned over to the Bruins, then took the puck sideways across the offensive zone and shot the puck in through a screen. Abdelkader did nothing beyond skating to the net; this was a thorough individual effort by Datsyuk.

Tally: 0.


April 20th vs. Boston.

1) Glendening from Helm and Miller. Once again this line ended up together after an unsuccessful Red Wings power play and scored. Needless to say, this wasn't one of the new line combos.

Tally: 0.


Total Tally from the new linesover six games: Three. If we include the individual efforts, that number becomes seven.
Total tally from transient, different line combinations during that period: Six.
Total changes by Babcock over that time: Zero.


It's worth noting two more things:
1) The quality of the Wings' even-strength chances has generally been poor. This has been especially true against Boston thus far. They were also outshot by an injury-devastated Blues team.
2) The single power play goal scored over the past six games came from the Kid Line power play unit.
3) This team would very likely be playing Pittsburgh rather than Boston had Babcock stuck with line combinations that worked rather than intransigently pushing line combinations that have proven totally ineffective.

As we speak, Babcock has made no line changes after a totally anemic offensive showing over the first seven periods against the Bruins, including a thoroughly brutal first period tonight. He began the period with the line of Miller, Glendening, and Legwand, which has been thoroughly ineffective on both offense and defense in its six-plus games. By contrast, Helm did excellently with Glendening and Miller, and Legwand performed well with Nyquist and Franzen.

Discuss.
 
Last edited:

Sadekuuro

Registered User
Aug 23, 2005
6,856
1,240
Cascadia
It's Babcock. What are you going to do? :dunno:

He knows all this. He knows the downsides to what he's doing perfectly well. He's just that stubborn and that convinced of his ability to successfully fit any square peg in any round hole through sheer force of will.

He'll go back to better lines in the middle of Game 5, with us down 3-1 in the series and trailing in the elimination game.
 

Crymson

Fire Holland
May 23, 2010
3,667
0
Babcock *seems* to have finally abandoned his experiment. It took him seven and a half periods.
 

Heaton

Moderator
Feb 13, 2004
22,548
925
Auburn Hills
We can obviously conclude all of the Wings problems are coming from the line combos. Seeing as when these lines were 'corrected' we've had so much more offensive success this series. :rolleyes:

The lines are and never the issue. This team is overmatched right now and not playing well at all. Legwand on a 'scoring' line or Jurco with Sheahan/Tatar is not going to fix these issues. But I'm sure if the lines were 'perfect' and they still weren't producing it would be some other coaching issue instead of rightfully seeing that this team seems completely overmatched.
 

Crymson

Fire Holland
May 23, 2010
3,667
0
We can obviously conclude all of the Wings problems are coming from the line combos. Seeing as when these lines were 'corrected' we've had so much more offensive success this series. :rolleyes:

The lines were corrected with seven minutes remaining in the 2nd period, so I don't see your point.

And yes, there has been improvement in that short time.

The lines are and never the issue. This team is overmatched right now and not playing well at all. Legwand on a 'scoring' line or Jurco with Sheahan/Tatar is not going to fix these issues. But I'm sure if the lines were 'perfect' and they still weren't producing it would be some other coaching issue instead of rightfully seeing that this team seems completely overmatched.

Well, if Babcock sticks with these lines---though I'd still like to see Helm on the 4th---we'll see what's what. That said, the team's offense took a dump the moment Babcock changed the lines for the Sabres game on the 8th.
 

theYman

Registered User
Feb 28, 2008
21,480
1,807
It's a start, but it's hard to forget all the damage that came before. He blew the 1st WC spot and probably two games against the Bruins.

No we just didn't get any points against the ****in Blue Jackets when we played them. That would have put us in Pittsburgh instead of Boston.
 

Crymson

Fire Holland
May 23, 2010
3,667
0
No we just didn't get any points against the ****in Blue Jackets when we played them. That would have put us in Pittsburgh instead of Boston.

An extra point against Pittsburgh or one against Carolina would have done it, but Babcock had neutered the offense. Only his decision to reunite the Kid Line in the final minutes against Pitt got the Wings a point there.
 

SoupNazi

Serenity now. Insanity later.
Feb 6, 2010
26,460
14,789
An extra point against Pittsburgh or one against Carolina would have done it, but Babcock had neutered the offense. Only his decision to reunite the Kid Line in the final minutes against Pitt got the Wings a point there.

Can you prove we would have gotten the points with the lines you have been jonesing for?

We could have ended up in the same place with them.
 

Crymson

Fire Holland
May 23, 2010
3,667
0
Can you prove we would have gotten the points with the lines you have been jonesing for?

Why do you ask this question to which you already know the answer? I can only call probabilities.

We could have ended up in the same place with them.

Based on the available data, it appears the likelihood of ending up in the 1st WC spot would have been greater.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
19,946
15,076
Sweden
We can obviously conclude all of the Wings problems are coming from the line combos. Seeing as when these lines were 'corrected' we've had so much more offensive success this series. :rolleyes:

The lines are and never the issue. This team is overmatched right now and not playing well at all. Legwand on a 'scoring' line or Jurco with Sheahan/Tatar is not going to fix these issues. But I'm sure if the lines were 'perfect' and they still weren't producing it would be some other coaching issue instead of rightfully seeing that this team seems completely overmatched.
Lines are never the issue? Huh? Chemistry is a huge part of hockey and some players work better together than others. It was clear from the moment Babcock implemented the new lines that they weren't clicking. I was hoping in time they would, but they haven't. Line combinations aren't THE reason we're down in the series but it's not helping.
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
13,342
925
GPP Michigan
Line juggling only helps if you are facing a team that is similar in talent

I agree with Heaton.

The most apt description would be, "Rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic."

That iceberg is gonna **** you up even if you move three deck chairs to the pool and two to the promenade.

What worked in the regular season against Buffalo, doesn't mean jack**** against Boston in the playoffs.
 

chances14

Registered User
Jan 7, 2010
10,404
515
Michigan
Why do you ask this question to which you already know the answer? I can only call probabilities.

Then please stop acting like its 100% certain that we would have got the 1st wc spot if the lines stayed the same in your line rant posts. It's rather annoying after the umpteenth time
 

odin1981

There can be only 1!
Mar 8, 2013
5,054
897
Canton Mi
Just stop *****ing about the lines. You have to come to the realization that Babcock envisions lines that are largely "wtf really". I *****ed quite a bit about them for a long while. He still didn't change them. Just accept and move on from your displeasure in the lineups he makes.

It will really make it much less stressful. Don't try to understand the thought process or lack thereof that happens when he makes lines up. Even if Z where back he would get gifted Nyquist and Franzen but Dats would get Abby and Bert and wouldn't get to see a player that goes to open ice and sets up in a position to shoot a gift pass from Pavel. Don't waste your time bothering about **** that won't change. Or if it does you get maybe 2-3 shifts off a line that could do something but then it gets switched back because there is no time given for the forwards to gel together.
 

14ari13

Registered User
Oct 19, 2006
14,136
1,226
Norway
I did not like the lines since Datsyuk came back.
Obviously 2 goals in 3 games, you aren't winning much with that
 

FadedWingsFan

Registered User
Jan 28, 2013
30
0
Vancouver BC
After tonight's game, and looking at the power play...I really believe it's time for atleast one right handed defencemen. Whether it's ryan sproul or marchenko. Teemu pulkkinen needs to be up as well. Joakim anderson does nothing for us.
 

SoupNazi

Serenity now. Insanity later.
Feb 6, 2010
26,460
14,789
Why do you ask this question to which you already know the answer? I can only call probabilities.

Then please stop acting like its 100% certain that we would have got the 1st wc spot if the lines stayed the same in your line rant posts. It's rather annoying after the umpteenth time

I was going to respond but Chances made my post for me. You can't say it for sure, but you continue to insist it's true.

There's no 100% certainty except that we're playing Boston, not Pittsburgh, and nothing can change that.
 

joe89

#5
Apr 30, 2009
20,316
179
I really liked our lines for a while because even if we were injured they carried no ******** and made sense. I think they were something like:

Nyquist-Legwand-Franzen(three scorers, different players, PERFECT)
Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco(Kid line, PERFECT)
Abdelkader-Andersson-Alfredsson(Abdelkader bottom 6, Andersson 3rd line C, both OK, Alfie misplaced)
Miller-Glendening-Bertuzzi(4th liners, 4th line, CHECK)

So out of 12 players, only one wasn't put in a good spot(Alfie). Oh, and they kinda worked.

-----

I know we lost Jurco for a while and got Helm back somewhat early, but what has Babcock done now that we are healthier?

Franzen-Datsyuk-Abdelkader(Are words necessary?)
Tatar-Sheahan-Nyquist(Tatar hogs the puck and takes it to the net, Sheahan plays defense and net front, so what's Nyquist's role on the line? He has no role.)
Jurco-Helm-Alfie/Andersson(Honestly this line could've worked, but it's put together one week before the playoffs so odds are it wouldn't, and it hasn't.)
Miller-Glendening-Legwand(We couldn't even keep our grind line intact, because Datsyuk came back?)

From my view, Datsyuk, Sheahan, Tatar, Helm, Miller and Glendening are where they should be. The rest are square pegs into round holes. Legwand is used like he's Cleary, and we've split the best offensive chemistry we have in Franzen & Nyquist and the Kid line meanwhile putting Abdelkader on a scoring line.

Big changes and too close to the playoffs. Don't tell me that lines don't matter, we went from a team that showed a ton of chemistry and won hockey games by possession to a team that has to rely on individual efforts. And don't say that this wasn't mentioned here minute we saw those lines, it isn't said in retrospect.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
19,946
15,076
Sweden
Line juggling only helps if you are facing a team that is similar in talent

I agree with Heaton.

The most apt description would be, "Rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic."

That iceberg is gonna **** you up even if you move three deck chairs to the pool and two to the promenade.

What worked in the regular season against Buffalo, doesn't mean jack**** against Boston in the playoffs.
But these lines haven't worked against anyone. Which is the point. We had something that was working, and it was changed into something that isn't working. We need to get better in many ways but finding lines with some chemistry is one way to help us get some offense.
 

Crymson

Fire Holland
May 23, 2010
3,667
0
Then please stop acting like its 100% certain that we would have got the 1st wc spot if the lines stayed the same in your line rant posts. It's rather annoying after the umpteenth time

I challenge you to point out a single post in which I declared the probability as 100%.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

  • Finland vs Norway
    Finland vs Norway
    Wagers: 1
    Staked: $300.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Slovakia vs USA
    Slovakia vs USA
    Wagers: 2
    Staked: $150.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Lecce vs Udinese
    Lecce vs Udinese
    Wagers: 1
    Staked: $50.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Czechia vs Switzerland
    Czechia vs Switzerland
    Wagers: 4
    Staked: $875.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Sweden vs Germany
    Sweden vs Germany
    Event closes
    • Updated:

Ad

Ad