An Interesting Look at the 2002 vs 2008 SC champs

[BinCookin]

Here is the 2002 Red Wings Roster (Definitely a powerhouse):

Brendan Shanahan 75pts
Sergei Fedorov C 68pts
Brett Hull 63pts
Nicklas Lidstrom D 59pts
Luc Robitaille LW 50pts
Steve Yzerman C 48pts
Igor Larionov C 43pts
Chris Chelios D 39pts
Pavel Datsyuk C 35pts
Kris Draper RW 30pts
Tomas Holmstrom 26pts
Boyd Devereaux LW 25pts
Kirk Maltby LW 24pts
Mathieu Dandenault 20pts
Steve Duchesne 18pts
Fredrik Olausson D 15pts
Darren McCarty RW 12pts
Jason Williams RW 10pts
Jiri Fischer D 80 10pts
Sean Avery C 4pts (holy crap sean avery???)-i didnt know he was on our team!!?
Maxim Kuznetsov 3pts
Brent Gilchrist C 2pts
Dominik Hasek G 1pt

Here is the 2008 Red Wings Roster

Pavel Datsyuk 97pts
Henrik Zetterberg 92pts
Nicklas Lidstrom 70pts
Brian Rafalski 55pts
Dan Cleary 42pts
Jiri Hudler 42pts
Tomas Holmstrom 40pts
Mikael Samuelsson 40pts
Johan Franzen C 38pts
Valtteri Filppula C 36pts
Niklas Kronwall D 35pts
Kris Draper C 17pts
Brett Lebda D 14pts
Tomas Kopecky RW 12 pts
Chris Chelios D 12 pts
Andreas Lilja D 12pts
Kirk Maltby LW 10pts
Dallas Drake RW 6 pts
Matt Ellis LW 6pts
Mark Hartigan C 4 pts
Aaron Downey RW 3pts
Derek Meech D 3pts
Chris Osgood G 3pts (haha)
Brad Stuart D 2pts
Jonathan Ericsson D 1pts
Dominik Hasek G 1pt (Osgood tripled his assists haha)

We drafted pretty much every one of the forwards on this team. And none of them are high first round picks.

Yes we still have Lidstrom
Yes we signed Rafalski in this year

But generally speaking, it seems we have already done a rebuild once (during the 90's while remaining good) because in 2008 we won with this lineup. Just saying Holland may not be an idiot, seems he has rebuilt the team once already this way, and won a cup with it.

I am not saying Holland is doing the right things again. Or whatever. Just saying it is interesting that we basically drafted and built our own champs in 2008 with very little crossover in 6 years.

Click to read more...

 

[GT500x]

We drafted pretty much every one of the forwards on this team. And none of them are high first round picks.

Yes we still have Lidstrom
Yes we signed Rafalski in this year

But generally speaking, it seems we have already done a rebuild once (during the 90's while remaining good) because in 2008 we won with this lineup. Just saying Holland may not be an idiot, seems he has rebuilt the team once already this way, and won a cup with it.

I am not saying Holland is doing the right things again. Or whatever. Just saying it is interesting that we basically drafted and built our own champs in 2008 with very little crossover in 6 years.

If Holland can rebuild the team with a core as strong as the one in 2008, then I'll be impressed. I'm not confident he will.

 

[Bench]

Good post. Encourages patience in our prospect system.

I think the real impact players are yet to come. Well, I hope so.

 

[icKx]

Who are the 90pt forwards of the future?

Who is the upcoming #1 D? I had hoped Smith could be a home-grown Rafalski but I don't see it yet.

Tall orders to fill...

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Here is the 2002 Red Wings Roster (Definitely a powerhouse):

Brendan Shanahan 75pts
Sergei Fedorov C 68pts
Brett Hull 63pts
Nicklas Lidstrom D 59pts
Luc Robitaille LW 50pts
Steve Yzerman C 48pts
Igor Larionov C 43pts
Chris Chelios D 39pts
Pavel Datsyuk C 35pts
Kris Draper RW 30pts
Tomas Holmstrom 26pts
Boyd Devereaux LW 25pts
Kirk Maltby LW 24pts
Mathieu Dandenault 20pts
Steve Duchesne 18pts
Fredrik Olausson D 15pts
Darren McCarty RW 12pts
Jason Williams RW 10pts
Jiri Fischer D 80 10pts
Sean Avery C 4pts (holy crap sean avery???)-i didnt know he was on our team!!?
Maxim Kuznetsov 3pts
Brent Gilchrist C 2pts
Dominik Hasek G 1pt

Here is the 2008 Red Wings Roster

Pavel Datsyuk 97pts
Henrik Zetterberg 92pts
Nicklas Lidstrom 70pts
Brian Rafalski 55pts
Dan Cleary 42pts
Jiri Hudler 42pts
Tomas Holmstrom 40pts
Mikael Samuelsson 40pts
Johan Franzen C 38pts
Valtteri Filppula C 36pts
Niklas Kronwall D 35pts
Kris Draper C 17pts
Brett Lebda D 14pts
Tomas Kopecky RW 12 pts
Chris Chelios D 12 pts
Andreas Lilja D 12pts
Kirk Maltby LW 10pts
Dallas Drake RW 6 pts
Matt Ellis LW 6pts
Mark Hartigan C 4 pts
Aaron Downey RW 3pts
Derek Meech D 3pts
Chris Osgood G 3pts (haha)
Brad Stuart D 2pts
Jonathan Ericsson D 1pts
Dominik Hasek G 1pt (Osgood tripled his assists haha)

We drafted pretty much every one of the forwards on this team. And none of them are high first round picks.

Yes we still have Lidstrom
Yes we signed Rafalski in this year

But generally speaking, it seems we have already done a rebuild once (during the 90's while remaining good) because in 2008 we won with this lineup. Just saying Holland may not be an idiot, seems he has rebuilt the team once already this way, and won a cup with it.

I am not saying Holland is doing the right things again. Or whatever. Just saying it is interesting that we basically drafted and built our own champs in 2008 with very little crossover in 6 years.

Here's the big difference.

In 2002, Datsyuk was already on the team and was among the team's leading scorers in the second half of the season. Zetterberg was already an Olympian and considered the best player not playing in the NHL.

So it's 2013. it took 6 years for the Red Wings to reach the top again last time.

Who are the new Datsyuk and Zetterberg. The new Fedorov and Yzerman?

 

[GT500x]

I have tried really hard to see what some other people here have seen in our prospects. I don't see any stars coming. I don't see anything more than 2nd liners and a possible #1 goalie in the pipeline. But even still, it's impossible to tell whether they will even reach that expectation. Call me a Negative Nelly if you will, but I don't set my expectations for most prospects on the high side. I keep seeing comments about our wealth of talent and a bright future ahead but I don't see it. What am I missing?

 

[Bench]

I have tried really hard to see what some other people here have seen in our prospects. I don't see any stars coming. I don't see anything more than 2nd liners and a possible #1 goalie in the pipeline. But even still, it's impossible to tell whether they will even reach that expectation. Call me a Negative Nelly if you will, but I don't set my expectations for most prospects on the high side. I keep seeing comments about our wealth of talent and a bright future ahead but I don't see it. What am I missing?

You're not missing anything. There may not be a truly great player in the pipeline. That's possible.

And if that's the reality, this team is boned. Like really hard. Because nearly all the future hopes are on the back of the guys who will be playing larger roles over the next few seasons.

I don't expect another Zetterberg or Datsyuk, but I expect a cache of players that, as a whole, can probably become a dangerous unit moving forward. In the interim, we're seeing a frustrating transition as the old guard still show flashes of brilliance but lack the supporting cast to take it to the next level. The new guard isn't ready to fill that void, so we have stopgaps plugging away that have failed to meet expectations as well.

In hindsight, the youth movement should have been emphasized more last year, since a series of strikeouts on Suter, Nash, Weber, and so on have left the team no option but to lean on them now more heavily than ever.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I have tried really hard to see what some other people here have seen in our prospects. I don't see any stars coming. I don't see anything more than 2nd liners and a possible #1 goalie in the pipeline. But even still, it's impossible to tell whether they will even reach that expectation. Call me a Negative Nelly if you will, but I don't set my expectations for most prospects on the high side. I keep seeing comments about our wealth of talent and a bright future ahead but I don't see it. What am I missing?

I think Tatar will score 35 goals in the NHL one day. But the hallmark of Red Wings hockey has been great two-way centers.

Hopes for Jarnkrok and Sheahan, but I don't see them as great.

 

[GT500x]

In hindsight, the youth movement should have been emphasized more last year, since a series of strikeouts on Suter, Nash, Weber, and so on have left the team no option but to lean on them now more heavily than ever.

I may be in the minority but I don't think this is a mistake we can afford to make again. I think this season would have been a disaster if we hadn't given Nyquist an opportunity to play full time. Thankfully, he's gotten a chance to play which means Tatar can come up next year. I would like to see Sheahan get a good amount of games too but that isn't likely to happen.

 

[Bench]

I may be in the minority but I don't think this is a mistake we can afford to make again. I think this season would have been a disaster if we hadn't given Nyquist an opportunity to play full time. Thankfully, he's gotten a chance to play which means Tatar can come up next year. I would like to see Sheahan get a good amount of games too but that isn't likely to happen.

I believe you're in the majority, actually. Most folks would prefer to cut ties with players like Sammy, Bert, and Cleary and favor the new prospects.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

The salary cap means constant evolution of the roster.

Every year is a rebuilding year to a certain extent. If you have 21-22 year old prospects, you need to be giving them a chance. EVERY YEAR

 

[VladTheImpaler]

Interesting take on things in the OP, but as you mentioned, the important constant between the two teams is that one of the best defenseman of all-time anchored both blue lines.

It is absolutely crucial that a few of Smith, Sproul, Ouellet, DeKeyser, Backman, Jensen and Marchenko develop into very good NHL defenseman. I believe that our forward prospects can be good enough to help us contend as long as our defense is rock solid along with Howie or Mrazek in net, if he continues with his current development arc.

 

[14ari13]

Here is the 2002 Red Wings Roster (Definitely a powerhouse):

Brendan Shanahan 75pts
Sergei Fedorov C 68pts
Brett Hull 63pts
Nicklas Lidstrom D 59pts
Luc Robitaille LW 50pts
Steve Yzerman C 48pts
Igor Larionov C 43pts
Chris Chelios D 39pts
Pavel Datsyuk C 35pts
Kris Draper RW 30pts
Tomas Holmstrom 26pts
Boyd Devereaux LW 25pts
Kirk Maltby LW 24pts
Mathieu Dandenault 20pts
Steve Duchesne 18pts
Fredrik Olausson D 15pts
Darren McCarty RW 12pts
Jason Williams RW 10pts
Jiri Fischer D 80 10pts
Sean Avery C 4pts (holy crap sean avery???)-i didnt know he was on our team!!?
Maxim Kuznetsov 3pts
Brent Gilchrist C 2pts
Dominik Hasek G 1pt

Here is the 2008 Red Wings Roster

Pavel Datsyuk 97pts
Henrik Zetterberg 92pts
Nicklas Lidstrom 70pts
Brian Rafalski 55pts
Dan Cleary 42pts
Jiri Hudler 42pts
Tomas Holmstrom 40pts
Mikael Samuelsson 40pts
Johan Franzen C 38pts
Valtteri Filppula C 36pts
Niklas Kronwall D 35pts
Kris Draper C 17pts
Brett Lebda D 14pts
Tomas Kopecky RW 12 pts
Chris Chelios D 12 pts
Andreas Lilja D 12pts
Kirk Maltby LW 10pts
Dallas Drake RW 6 pts
Matt Ellis LW 6pts
Mark Hartigan C 4 pts
Aaron Downey RW 3pts
Derek Meech D 3pts
Chris Osgood G 3pts (haha)
Brad Stuart D 2pts
Jonathan Ericsson D 1pts
Dominik Hasek G 1pt (Osgood tripled his assists haha)

We drafted pretty much every one of the forwards on this team. And none of them are high first round picks.

Yes we still have Lidstrom
Yes we signed Rafalski in this year

But generally speaking, it seems we have already done a rebuild once (during the 90's while remaining good) because in 2008 we won with this lineup. Just saying Holland may not be an idiot, seems he has rebuilt the team once already this way, and won a cup with it.

I am not saying Holland is doing the right things again. Or whatever. Just saying it is interesting that we basically drafted and built our own champs in 2008 with very little crossover in 6 years.

I think it is safe to say Holland rebuilt the team twice in '02 and '08 (one win away from the cup in '09 too/Bettman stole the cup from us ). Many were complaining that Holland/Ilitch baught the cup in '02, but actually Hasek, Hull wanted to come to Detroit, it was not like Holland threw huge money at them.

Here's the big difference.

In 2002, Datsyuk was already on the team and was among the team's leading scorers in the second half of the season. Zetterberg was already an Olympian and considered the best player not playing in the NHL.

So it's 2013. it took 6 years for the Red Wings to reach the top again last time.

Who are the new Datsyuk and Zetterberg. The new Fedorov and Yzerman?

I have tried really hard to see what some other people here have seen in our prospects. I don't see any stars coming. I don't see anything more than 2nd liners and a possible #1 goalie in the pipeline. But even still, it's impossible to tell whether they will even reach that expectation. Call me a Negative Nelly if you will, but I don't set my expectations for most prospects on the high side. I keep seeing comments about our wealth of talent and a bright future ahead but I don't see it. What am I missing?

You are not missing anything. I think many posters share this/your opinion.

The salary cap means constant evolution of the roster.

Every year is a rebuilding year to a certain extent. If you have 21-22 year old prospects, you need to be giving them a chance. EVERY YEAR

Very true.
I think Holland and Babcock have done that this year, they have played a lot of prospects Smith, Kindl, Lashoff, Dekeyser, Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson, Brunner.

 

[Henkka]

Who are the new Datsyuk and Zetterberg. The new Fedorov and Yzerman?

Good question. Athanasiou has potential to hit very high. Same for Jurco or Järnkrok. We don't know that yet. Maybe that piece comes from next draft. But our biggest pieces at the moment are at defence.

Or maybe we go to trade route to load some young defencemen to young 1st line center. Who knows.

So far when analyzing these teams under cap era, the best cap efficient long-term building is a strong defence and offense by a comittee. Just like the St. Louis Blues is builded and just what we are going towards for. When the succes comes, it's based on low-scoring hockey, so those forwards caphit doesn't skyrocket, and you can keep your own core together. Then you don't lose any "hossas" anywhere, when others are getting a payraise after success.

Biggest difference then will be, that when you hit to your "dynasty" years, the cap problems does not eat your guys to other organizations, it gives possibility to keep them together and even strengthen the team. Then other UFAs want to join us so it has a loooong positive effect at least for a decade.

 

[GT500x]

Good question. Athanasiou has potential to hit very high. Same for Jurco or Järnkrok. We don't know that yet. Maybe that piece comes from next draft. But our biggest pieces at the moment are at defence.

Or maybe we go to trade route to load some young defencemen to young 1st line center. Who knows.

So far when analyzing these teams under cap era, the best cap efficient long-term building is a strong defence and offense by a comittee. Just like the St. Louis Blues is builded and just what we are going towards for. When the succes comes, it's based on low-scoring hockey, so those forwards caphit doesn't skyrocket, and you can keep your own core together. Then you don't lose any "hossas" anywhere, when others are getting a payraise after success.

Biggest difference then will be, that when you hit to your "dynasty" years, the cap problems does not eat your guys to other organizations, it gives possibility to keep them together and even strengthen the team. Then other UFAs want to join us so it has a loooong positive effect at least for a decade.

We're not trading for a star player without giving up a ton so scratch that off the list.

 

[detredWINgs]

You're missing that whole part where the Wings aren't the only organization scouring Europe for prospects anymore...And the fact that no one discounts highly skilled Euros into oblivion just because they're 5'11, 170 going into their draft year anymore.

Also, I don't think anyone is questioning what Holland could do pre-cap or with the vestiges of his pre-cap team in the post-cap era.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I think it is safe to say Holland rebuilt the team twice in '02 and '08 (one win away from the cup in '09 too/Bettman stole the cup from us ). Many were complaining that Holland/Ilitch baught the cup in '02, but actually Hasek, Hull wanted to come to Detroit, it was not like Holland threw huge money at them.



You are not missing anything. I think many posters share this/your opinion.

Very true.
I think Holland and Babcock have done that this year, they have played a lot of prospects Smith, Kindl, Lashoff, Dekeyser, Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson, Brunner.

Smith and Brunner are the only rookies meant to be on the roster though.

 

[detredWINgs]

The salary cap means constant evolution of the roster.

Every year is a rebuilding year to a certain extent. If you have 21-22 year old prospects, you need to be giving them a chance. EVERY YEAR

Exactly. Constant evolution. And with that comes the need for constant self-evaluation, constant self-scouting.

Its more important than ever to know your own players and your coaching staff. If I can look at Val Filppula and see that he doesn't have the offensive instincts to be a consistent producer, so can you. If I can look at Kronwall and see his defense is too inconsistent for him to be the anchor on your blueline, you can too. If I can look at Hudler and see that his coach consistently fails to utilize him properly, you can too.

Know your players. If you know that one of them is over-performing and you have holes elsewhere, sell them while they're high.

I look at the Hodgson-Kassian trade, the Neal-Goligoski trade, the Shattenkirk/Stewart-Johnson trade, and I think "one of those GMs really did their homework, one of those GMs really knew when to sell high on a player."

I question whether Holland knows his players well enough to play the trade game or when it comes to promotion for that matter. In particular, I question whether Holland knows when to scale back his expectations of a player, when to give up on a player, or when to sell high on a player. And to be honest, I think that Holland would know his players a lot better if he could only stop his personal feelings from clouding his judgment.

 

[BinCookin]

Exactly. Constant evolution. And with that comes the need for constant self-evaluation, constant self-scouting.

Its more important than ever to know your own players and your coaching staff. If I can look at Val Filppula and see that he doesn't have the offensive instincts to be a consistent producer, so can you. If I can look at Kronwall and see his defense is too inconsistent for him to be the anchor on your blueline, you can too. If I can look at Hudler and see that his coach consistently fails to utilize him properly, you can too.

Know your players. If you know that one of them is over-performing and you have holes elsewhere, sell them while they're high.

I look at the Hodgson-Kassian trade, the Neal-Goligoski trade, the Shattenkirk/Stewart-Johnson trade, and I think "one of those GMs really did their homework, one of those GMs really knew when to sell high on a player."

I question whether Holland knows his players well enough to play the trade game or when it comes to promotion for that matter. In particular, I question whether Holland knows when to scale back his expectations of a player, when to give up on a player, or when to sell high on a player. And to be honest, I think that Holland would know his players a lot better if he could only stop his personal feelings from clouding his judgment.

Also if he played his rookies more, he would know more about what he had.

My point with this post was to show that we did a rebuild once.

I do not know if such a rebuild can be done again without falling much lower, but the point is he is working on it. I enjoy that he kept his first round pick. I think if all the young guys turn into second liners so be it, more 2nd liners than we have now

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

You're missing that whole part where the Wings aren't the only organization scouring Europe for prospects anymore...And the fact that no one discounts highly skilled Euros into oblivion just because they're 5'11, 170 going into their draft year anymore.

Also, I don't think anyone is questioning what Holland could do pre-cap or with the vestiges of his pre-cap team in the post-cap era.

While most teams have become more willing to take highly skilled under developed Europeans we still seem to snatch them up and get some great value from them. Jarnkrok was the 4th ranked European skater in 2010, he was ranked in the 25-40 range from what I remember, but he fell to us at 51 and he was the 7th European taking. The reason he fell can be chalked up to the fact that he was tiny at only 5'11 160 pounds.

I think that in the Salary Cap era it will be next to impossible to see another playoff streak like ours, or the Bruins of old. Unless you strike gold on a pick outside of the top 10 it is very hard to get prospects with Star potential. There will always be players with 10 talent that are picked later on in the draft, the thing is you have to be able to find that talent and then hope they develop, fixing the issues that kept them from originally picked in the top 10. From 03 there's Getzlaf, Perry, Seabrook, Eriksson, etc. In 04 we have Radulov, Zajac & Green (man did 04 suck). The point is that there are always highly skilled players that fall through the cracks, you just have to be lucky/good enough to find them.

Almost all of the top teams in the NHL have a top 5/10 pick on their team that is contributing right now or will be in a year or two. The only teams that don't have a top 5/10 pick, that they drafted themselves, contributing to their playoff push are: Detroit, Dallas, The Rangers, Winnipeg & Minnesota. Every other team has at least 1 top 10 pick contributing to their team's success.

If we don't hit it big over the next couple of years and Datsyuk does indeed return to Russia we shouldn't have to wait long to retool, 2015 is McDavid's draft year.

 

[Flowah]

Very true.
I think Holland and Babcock have done that this year, they have played a lot of prospects Smith, Kindl, Lashoff, Dekeyser, Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson, Brunner.

How much of that is because of injuries and not by choice? If Bert, Sammy, Helm, are healthy, do Nyquist, Tatar, Andersson play?

If CC is healthy all year, who sits among Smith, Kindl, Lashoff? And Kindl is not really a prospect.

 

[Bench]

How much of that is because of injuries and not by choice?

Here we go again.

Let's just all agree that it's good how it turned out, regardless of the catalyst.

 

[Heaton]

How much of that is because of injuries and not by choice? If Bert, Sammy, Helm, are healthy, do Nyquist, Tatar, Andersson play?

If CC is healthy all year, who sits among Smith, Kindl, Lashoff? And Kindl is not really a prospect.

While I agree that Holland should've MADE room for the prospects, I still think they all would've played quite a bit. It is quite presumptuous to believe that some of our players would've never gotten injured or that some young players would've not outplayed our vets. As of right now a guy no one thought would actually be benched (Quincey) has been leapfrogged by Kindl and DeKeyser.

 

[Bench]

As of right now a guy no one thought would actually be benched (Quincey) has been leapfrogged by Kindl and DeKeyser.

That really is surprising.

 

[Henkka]

How much of that is because of injuries and not by choice? If Bert, Sammy, Helm, are healthy, do Nyquist, Tatar, Andersson play?

If CC is healthy all year, who sits among Smith, Kindl, Lashoff? And Kindl is not really a prospect.

You kind of know that every year there's injuries and then those kids will get a shot.