Allan Muir: Ovechkin Should Be Stripped of the "C"

[ChibiPooky]

So I think that if they do clean house this offseason (fire GMGM and Oates), they should also take the opportunity to move the C.

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[CapitalsCupReality]

So I think that if they do clean house this offseason (fire GMGM and Oates), they should also take the opportunity to move the C.

I think it all has to be looked at critically at this point. I've certainly got my doubts that a "fireless" Ovechkin is the right guy to lead by example for his teammates that's for sure.

The move though has the potential to completely torpedo the relations with Ovechkin. Scary unless you're willing to trade the face of the franchise and the greatest talent they've ever had.

 

[um]

The move though has the potential to completely torpedo the relations with Ovechkin. Scary unless you're willing to trade the face of the franchise and the greatest talent they've ever had.

thats what they said about semin. ovechkin is a grown man he'll deal with it like every other player in nhl history has had to at some point.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

What did they say about Semin? I mean he's gone right? I don't think many believed Semin departing would make Ovechkin ask out. Hope you're right and Ovy doesn't take his ball and ask out if they strip him of the C. It's going to be tough to overcome IMO.

 

[ChibiPooky]

I mean, if he's not the guy to lead, and he's already been made the leader, and he won't accept a different role, then IMO he HAS to be moved if all of those things are true, regardless of how he feels about it.

 

[g00n]

IMO Ovechkin would buy into losing the C if you sell it to him as a boost to his production and contribution to the team by:

--Bringing in a strong leader to handle the motivation if the coach won't, freeing Ovechkin to just focus on being Ovechkin and scoring.

--Doing for Ovechkin kind of what they did for Jagr, which is to just get him the linemates he wants and let him play however the hell he wants as long as he produces, then worry about how the other lines are constructed and what their system is afterward.


Otherwise why even keep him around if you're just going to pay him a lot of money while attempting to shoehorn him into counterproductive roles. Either go all in and turn him loose or get value for him before his production or health really decline.

Nothing should be off the table for this wretched franchise.

 

[Langway]

Meh. Life goes on. The problem with stripping the C is there's no C in waiting. If there was a C in waiting then they wouldn't need to strip the C to begin with.

What needs to change is the organizational pedestal he's been put on since they drafted him. If he breaks or is disgruntled from being held accountable then, well, **** that guy.

 

[marcel snapshot]

Here's what we don't know, and what only the clowns in management and on the coaching staff - as well as the guys in the locker room - know:

What have they asked Ovie to do defensively - have they really asked him to make more of an effort to play a two-way game, and to skate as hard without the puck/defensively as he does with the puck or on the attack. Because if they haven't asked him to do that, they can't really hold him accountable for not doing it.

If they have asked him to do it and he won't or can't do it (and those are 2 different responses), that's pretty important too.

Or maybe they think he's been making progress in this regard, but slipped up in the Dallas game. If that's the case, you'd expect Oates to have qualified his statement that OV quit on the play with something like "we've seen a lot more from him in our own end this year, but on that one he **** the bed blah blah blah" - particularly in light of all the vaunted "trust" Oates has (or had) with Ovie.

To me, Oates putting Ovie on a line with Beagle is Oates throwing up his hands and saying "**** it, if you're not going to play a two-way game, then I have to put someone on your line that will try to play defense for 2 people". It worked for a couple of games from a defensive standpoint, but now it's shi-tonsky. And it's kind of a passive-aggressive way to deal with the problem.

So we seem to have a star player that can't change the way he plays to accomodate his coach's system, and a coach who won't make any more changes to his system to accomodate the way that player plays.

Movie is getting ****in old.

 

[g00n]

Meh. Life goes on. The problem with stripping the C is there's no C in waiting. If there was a C in waiting then they wouldn't need to strip the C to begin with.

What needs to change is the organizational pedestal he's been put on since they drafted him. If he breaks or is disgrustled from being held accountable then, well, **** that guy.

I think he's learned how to play the game here. He knows how to say the right things to the media and he goes out and floats and fires slappers on the PP and then "it is what it is" when the dust settles and he's got X goals and no Cup.

He's at least made a token effort to go along with what his coaches have told him to do, but he manages to work in his familiar wrinkles whenever he can almost as a rebellious stealing of personal power back from the situation. So I think you either have to cut him loose from the team, as you say, or just cut him loose on the ice as I described. This riding 2 or 3 horses crap is adding to the dysfunction.

Oates is a middling coach using middle manager techniques to create a middling team with middle of the road emotions and work ethic. An extreme talent or personality is going to SMOTHER in this environment. Ovechkin will not last another year of this, imo. With another 4 years to wait until the next Olympics, there's plenty of time to get comfortable on a new team in a new town, and probably little desire to slog through a long rebuild where he's asked to block shots on a PK by a slavedriving system-hound, for example.

GMGM and Oates need to go as soon as the season is over, and a GM and coach who can manage talent need to be brought in or Ted is going to see his superstar and all his attendance revenue go up in smoke like a Mike Green binger.

 

[g00n]

Here's what we don't know, and what only the clowns in management and on the coaching staff - as well as the guys in the locker room - know:

What have they asked Ovie to do defensively - have they really asked him to make more of an effort to play a two-way game, and to skate as hard without the puck/defensively as he does with the puck or on the attack. Because if they haven't asked him to do that, they can't really hold him accountable for not doing it.

If they have asked him to do it and he won't or can't do it (and those are 2 different responses), that's pretty important too.

Or maybe they think he's been making progress in this regard, but slipped up in the Dallas game. If that's the case, you'd expect Oates to have qualified his statement that OV quit on the play with something like "we've seen a lot more from him in our own end this year, but on that one he shid the bed blah blah blah" - particularly in light of all the vaunted "trust" Oates has (or had) with Ovie.

To me, Oates putting Ovie on a line with Beagle is Oates throwing up his hands and saying "Fug it, if you're not going to play a two-way game, then I have to put someone on your line that will try to play defense for 2 people". It worked for a couple of games from a defensive standpoint, but now it's shi-tonsky. And it's kind of a passive-aggressive way to deal with the problem.

So we seem to have a star player that can't change the way he plays to accomodate his coach's system, and a coach who won't make any more changes to his system to accomodate the way that player plays.

Movie is getting fuggin old.

Good questions. Think about this: What if Oates' own ******** system is creating the floating he's theoretically punishing Ovechkin for?

If the defensemen aren't supposed to travel more than 5 feet with the puck before passing it then wouldn't it make sense for the forwards to be looking for space and passing lanes as soon as they perceive the possibility of the defense gaining control of the puck?

Could that be why we see the forwards all circling and hanging around high in the defensive zone instead of attacking the puck or helping down low? Is that why this apparent bullfighting technique of waving at skaters as they pass you by is resulting in so many shots?

Is Oates looking for rebounds and quick skate-5-feet-then-pass transitions, and then wondering why goalies are getting hammered, defensemen are getting beaten, forwards are floating, nobody's playing defense, and there's no neutral zone flow or even strength scoring?

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Mods, feel free to move this to News & Notes if it's more appropriate there, but I just logged onto SI.com and the 2nd article on the main page is this:

http://nhl.si.com/2014/04/03/alex-ovechkin-washington-capitals-captain/?eref=sihp

I know it's been discussed on the boards, but I can't remember a publication with as much national coverage as SI publicly calling for Ovechkin to lose his captaincy.

I also think what Oates did in calling out Ovechkin is the nail in his coffin. Any good will or trust he built up was pretty much nuked with that statement.

Thoughts?

 

[Fallschirmyager]

If a new gm and coach are brought in the first thing that should be announced is everyone will be required to work for and earn their ice time. That includes the C and A's. If a 5 minute a night 4th liner earns the C then that's who gets it.

Realistically you can't really take the C from Ovy at this point unless he relinquishes it.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Mods, feel free to move this to News & Notes if it's more appropriate there, but I just logged onto SI.com and the 2nd article on the main page is this:

http://nhl.si.com/2014/04/03/alex-ovechkin-washington-capitals-captain/?eref=sihp

I know it's been discussed on the boards, but I can't remember a publication with as much national coverage as SI publicly calling for Ovechkin to lose his captaincy.

I also think what Oates did in calling out Ovechkin is the nail in his coffin. Any good will or trust he built up was pretty much nuked with that statement.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are I'd love to hear Muir's description of the lockerroom dynamic, of what Ovechkin does in a leadership role off the ice, and the elements of Ovechkin's psyche that would react well to such an action. Surely, he wouldn't suggest using the stripping of the 'C' as some silly fix-it-all tool without knowing about these things in detail, right?

 

[swimmer77]

The only reason I would right away if it's what Ovie wants.

Otherwise no....not yet. I'd give Ovechkin the benefit of the doubt because he's been the face of the franchise, an All Star, trophy winner, leading scorer, etc.

I'd can Oates and hire an accomplished, experienced coach that maybe Ovie would respect. Then I'd put Ovie back on the left wing. Maybe this right handedness thing has run its course.

I swear it's Oates' system that's screwing these guys up. I mean how else do you get three guys covering the same opposing player. And watching that replay of Ovie loafing - quite honestly I can't figure out what anybody else was really doing either.

 

[OviTaughtMe]

Really none of those accomplishments excuse him from giving up on D so often.

All we ask is for him to ****ing hustle. That's the first thing that is drilled into your head as a kid no matter what sport you play. There is no excuse. NONE. Move your feet. It is so simple, which is why analysts go on emotional rants about it.

Captain lead on ice. I expect him to be going 110% at all times. I don't care what he does off ice and how nice a teammate he is. A captain/leader/whatever has to setting charge on the ice

 

[Devil Dancer]

Ovie sure acts like a captain to me. He's the guy who calls players acquired at the deadline, he's the guy taking in rookies, inviting them to live with him when they first come to town, he's the guy retrieving milestone pucks, talking to the media, and being a trooper and a good soldier for an organization that hasn't always put him in a position to succeed.

Seems like captain material to me.

 

[ChibiPooky]

Meh. Life goes on. The problem with stripping the C is there's no C in waiting. If there was a C in waiting then they wouldn't need to strip the C to begin with.

What needs to change is the organizational pedestal he's been put on since they drafted him. If he breaks or is disgruntled from being held accountable then, well, **** that guy.

There's a guy who would be perfect for the role. He's a veteran and a hard worker, one of the few who is leading by example even through this asstastic season, has been with the team a few years, and has even worn an A on occasion. He's stepped up in the clutch and taken accountability for his mistakes. He's also displayed remarkable consistency in his game through the coaching changes. He's respected by the community and by the team, and he's earned every single bit of respect the organization and fanbase has given him. Isn't that what you want from a captain?

 

[SimplySensational]

Lets strip Ovechkin of the C because morons can't ****ing get that Ovechkin was 60 feet away from Stepan when the pass was being made to Stepan and he was the farthest Capital away from Stepan and because a player started skating fast behind him and it just so happens that Ray Whitney was going to turn around and lay a perfect backhand saucer pass.

That's a great ****ing reason.

This team has a consistent inability to pick up players on the backcheck and after watching 3 players that don't even belong in the AHL mug a guy without the puck while someone scored a few feet away, he attacks Ovechkin.

 

[Devil Dancer]

There's a guy who would be perfect for the role. He's a veteran and a hard worker, one of the few who is leading by example even through this asstastic season, has been with the team a few years, and has even worn an A on occasion. He's stepped up in the clutch and taken accountability for his mistakes. He's also displayed remarkable consistency in his game through the coaching changes. He's respected by the community and by the team, and he's earned every single bit of respect the organization and fanbase has given him. Isn't that what you want from a captain?

I don't know who you're talking about. Chimmer? Ward? I guess Ward hasn't been consistent enough for your description.

 

[txpd]

he's talking about Alzner

I think if you embarrass ovechkin to the level of having his c "stripped" in a public display of discipline, you need to trade him and move on.

Occasionally it works out where a player in his prime is stripped of his captaincy and kept on the roster, but its pretty rare. the hockey media circus around that would be crazy and it would all be another brick in the ov's a loser wall. its not a good thing.

If you want to support Ov with more leadership then bring in a NA player with captain's chops and make him Ov's assistant and rip the A off Backstrom or Brouwer or Green....Green is gone, so there is your A. Bring in Brooks Orpik and give it to him. If you want to humiliate Ov and strip his C, then trade him.

 

[ChibiPooky]

I don't know who you're talking about. Chimmer? Ward? I guess Ward hasn't been consistent enough for your description.

he's talking about Alzner

It was Ward. When I say "consistent" I mean in the way he plays. You always know what to expect from him.

Ward as captain also offers the opportunity to reinstate Ovechkin in the presumably near future (if he grows as a player), since he's getting up there in years.

 

[PuckBuddy]

Yeah, but what does Bryan Muir think about this basically irrelevant topic?

 

[txpd]

reading the article, the guy is calling ovechkin a selfish player. "he's not about team, he's about ovechkin"

 

[leova]

Lets strip Ovechkin of the C because morons can't ****ing get that Ovechkin was 60 feet away from Stepan when the pass was being made to Stepan and he was the farthest Capital away from Stepan and because a player started skating fast behind him and it just so happens that Ray Whitney was going to turn around and lay a perfect backhand saucer pass.

That's a great ****ing reason.

it's not about THAT play, its about ALL plays as a general theme. There is ZERO hustle in his game, and he seems to not care anymore

That is reason alone he shouldn't be Captain. Leaders inspire people to DO things - AO inspires himself to do nothing

 

[txpd]

It was Ward. When I say "consistent" I mean in the way he plays. You always know what to expect from him.

Ward as captain also offers the opportunity to reinstate Ovechkin in the presumably near future (if he grows as a player), since he's getting up there in years.

would you really strip your star player of his captaincy, which is humiliating, and then give it to a pending ufa? I love ward. always have, but that's got a lot of pot holes in it.

are you going to want to give ward the kind of contract he is going to want to stay in that role? if ward has a decent season next season he is going to want a contract of 3 or 4 years, while I think you are thinking ward is gone in two. I don't see how you make that happen.

further I am not sure what caps player wants to be the captain of this team while ov is still there.