All-time Draft #7 2nd Round: #3 Philadelphia Flyers vs. #2 New Jersey Devils
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BM67
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Even Pat Burns wont be able to find fault with the attention to defense put forth by this line-up. With a wide selection of multi-positional players, “Selkeâ€, “Norrisâ€, “Hart†and “Conn Smythe†winners to play with, he will find plenty of reasons to smile behind the bench.
The Bread Line dominated opposing defenses for 10 years with their precision passing and relentless effort. During the period from 26-27 to 35-36, Bill Cook led all NHLers in goals, Boucher led in assists and points, while Bun Cook fell in between Frank and Bill in goals and assists. All three ranked in the top 10 in goals, assists and points over the period. Bun and Boucher were also known for their excellent defensive efforts.
The second line is a solid combination of two-way play, grit and dazzling offensive ability. It’s also a good description of Barber and Petrov, both of whom are at home on both the PP and the PK. While Maltsev doesn’t have the same gritty two-way game as the others, he is the slickest offensively, and is also a versatile forward with strong leadership abilities.
This is a slick defensive unit with huge offensive upside, and the ability to stay out of the penalty box. Walker is the best defensive forward in PCHA history, and while not being a elite scorer, he did manage to lead the NHA in assists, and tied for the team scoring lead on two Stanley Cup winners. Mickey MacKay is one of the slickest two-way players of all-time. Three times led the PCHA in goals, and once in assists, and while almost forgotten now, was regularly compared to Cyclone Taylor and Frank Nighbor in his playing days. Nevin was a solid contributor to the early 60’s success of the Leafs, and his two-way play and leadership helped the Rangers climb to respectability in the late 60s.
A line of gritty two-way players, that doesn’t lead to penalty trouble. Tonelli can more than hold his own in the corners with anybody. Linden is the man to handle any of the really big centers, and will see duty on the #1 checking line when necessary. Duguay is better known for his looks, but he brings that â€old-time hockey†work ethic and multi-positional versatility that will allow for countering specific threats by line juggling as needed. While this line lacks the offensive pop of the other lines, the trio still managed to rack up 14 30+ goal seasons, with all three reaching the 30 goal and 80 point mark.
While he may be a little undersized for a regular role on defense, Marshall gives you just about everything else. He played every position except goaltender, and played a robust all-around game. He won two scoring titles, and was selected by the authors of Ultimate Hockey as a two-time “Selke†winner as well.
Larry Robinson is one of best all-around packages on defense to ever play the game, a huge physical presence and a mobile puck controlling force in one package. Goldham is a rock solid defender, and one of the best shot blockers of all-time. This unit will be able to shut down both flashy and power offensive lines, and not take penalties, so will see monster minutes.
Reed Larson’s primary role will be that of righty point man on the PP, as he finished in the top 5 of defenseman goal scoring 7 times. He has good mobility and is a willing scrapper, but his lack of defensive polish will limit his playing time. Moose Johnson while fleet of foot and able offensively will have a primary role of shutdown defenseman and PK duty. His unique combination of mobility and huge 99†wingspan will give attackers fits, as he forces them wide and clogs passing lanes with his active stick.
An intelligent defender, a fine rusher, and one of the best passers of his time, Lester Patrick will be more than able of filling any hole that opens up.
Chabot was a big but quick goaltender with a career playoff GAA of 1.54. He led both the Rangers and Leafs to their first Stanley Cups.
A talkative and friendly goalie who was popular with teammates, fans and the press. He wont see much playing time, but his heroics in the Isles come from behind run in the 75 playoffs, shows he is capable of getting the job done.
PP1: Cook - Boucher - Cook - Robinson - Fetisov
PP2: MacKay - Petrov - Maltsev - Larson - Barber
PK1: Barber - Boucher - Robinson - Goldham
PK2: Walker - MacKay - Johnson - Dutton
Larry Robinson – 6’4â€, 225 lbs, Shoots: left
Viacheslav Fetisov - 6'1", 220 lbs, Shoots: left
Bill Cook - 5'10", 175 lbs, Shoots: right
Frank Boucher - 5'9", 185 lbs, Shoots: left
Alexander Maltsev - 5'9", 174 lbs, Shoots: left
Bill Barber - 6'0", 195 lbs, Shoots: left
Vladimir Petrov - 6'0", 198 lbs, Shoots: right
John Tonelli - 6'1", 200 lbs, Shoots: left
Bob Goldham – 6’1â€, 195 lbs, Shoots: right
Trevor Linden – 6’4â€, 220 lbs, Shoots: right
Bun Cook - 5'11", 180 lbs, Shoots: left
Reed Larson - 6'0", 195 lbs, Shoots: right
Chuck Rayner - 5'11", 190 lbs, Catches: left
Ernie Johnson - 6'1", 188 lbs, Shoots: left
Mickey MacKay - 5'9", 162 lbs, Shoots: left
Jack Walker - 5'8", 153 lbs, Shoots: left
Bob Nevin - 6'0", 185 lbs, Shoots: right
Lorne Chabot - 6'1", 185 lbs, Catches: left
Pat Burns, coach
Red Dutton - 6'0", 185 lbs, Shoots: right
Lester Patrick – 6’1â€, 180 lbs, Shoots: left
Ron Duguay – 6’2â€, 200 lbs, Shoots: right
Glenn Resch - 5'9", 165 lbs, Catches: left
Jack Marshall - 5'9", 160 lbs, Shoots: ?left?
Team averages (with spares) shots
G: 6’0â€, 187.5 (5’11â€, 180) r-l 0-3
D: 6’1.2â€, 201.3 (6’1.1â€, 198.3) r-l 3-4
F: 5’11.2â€, 185.6 (5’11.1â€, 183.6) r-l 5-8
John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers
Bobby Clarke – 5’10â€, 185
Martin Brodeur – 6’2â€, 205
Brendan Shanahan - 6’3â€, 218 r
Sergei Makarov - 5’11â€, 185
Mark Howe - 5’11, 185
Luc Robitaille - 6’1â€, 215
Herb Gardiner – 5’10â€, 190
Steve Larmer – 5’11â€, 195
Kent Nilsson – 6’1â€, 195
Pat Verbeek – 5’9â€, 192 r
Petr Svoboda – 6’1â€, 198
Chris Drury – 5’10â€, 180 r
Eddie Gerard – 5’9â€, 168
Si Griffis – 6’1â€, 195
Steve Smith – 6’4â€, 215
Frank Foyston – 5’9â€, 158
Kris Draper – 5’11â€, 185
Mike Keenan, coach
Roy Worters – 5’3â€, 135
Willi Plett – 6â r
Vyacheslav Bykov – 5’8â€, 161
Andrei Khumutov – 5’9â€, 176
Darryl Sydor – 6’1â€, 205
Ken Wregget – 6’1â€, 201
Team averages (with spares) shots
G: 5’8.5â€, 170 (5’10â€, 180.3) r-l 0-3
D: 6’0â€, 191.8 (6’0.1â€, 193.7) r-l 0-6
F: 5’11.1â€, 188.8 (5’11.1â€, 188.5) r-l 4-9
The Bread Line dominated opposing defenses for 10 years with their precision passing and relentless effort. During the period from 26-27 to 35-36, Bill Cook led all NHLers in goals, Boucher led in assists and points, while Bun Cook fell in between Frank and Bill in goals and assists. All three ranked in the top 10 in goals, assists and points over the period. Bun and Boucher were also known for their excellent defensive efforts.
The second line is a solid combination of two-way play, grit and dazzling offensive ability. It’s also a good description of Barber and Petrov, both of whom are at home on both the PP and the PK. While Maltsev doesn’t have the same gritty two-way game as the others, he is the slickest offensively, and is also a versatile forward with strong leadership abilities.
This is a slick defensive unit with huge offensive upside, and the ability to stay out of the penalty box. Walker is the best defensive forward in PCHA history, and while not being a elite scorer, he did manage to lead the NHA in assists, and tied for the team scoring lead on two Stanley Cup winners. Mickey MacKay is one of the slickest two-way players of all-time. Three times led the PCHA in goals, and once in assists, and while almost forgotten now, was regularly compared to Cyclone Taylor and Frank Nighbor in his playing days. Nevin was a solid contributor to the early 60’s success of the Leafs, and his two-way play and leadership helped the Rangers climb to respectability in the late 60s.
A line of gritty two-way players, that doesn’t lead to penalty trouble. Tonelli can more than hold his own in the corners with anybody. Linden is the man to handle any of the really big centers, and will see duty on the #1 checking line when necessary. Duguay is better known for his looks, but he brings that â€old-time hockey†work ethic and multi-positional versatility that will allow for countering specific threats by line juggling as needed. While this line lacks the offensive pop of the other lines, the trio still managed to rack up 14 30+ goal seasons, with all three reaching the 30 goal and 80 point mark.
While he may be a little undersized for a regular role on defense, Marshall gives you just about everything else. He played every position except goaltender, and played a robust all-around game. He won two scoring titles, and was selected by the authors of Ultimate Hockey as a two-time “Selke†winner as well.
Larry Robinson is one of best all-around packages on defense to ever play the game, a huge physical presence and a mobile puck controlling force in one package. Goldham is a rock solid defender, and one of the best shot blockers of all-time. This unit will be able to shut down both flashy and power offensive lines, and not take penalties, so will see monster minutes.
Viacheslav Fetisov (A) - Red Dutton
While not quite as big as Robinson, Fetisov also is an elite level all-around package. He will see action in all game situations. Dutton is a physical defensive hard rock with good mobility. He will primarily see action on the second unit and the PK. While a more mature Dutton will see less time in the box, we take comfort in the fact that the younger Dutton will usually take someone with him when he goes.Reed Larson’s primary role will be that of righty point man on the PP, as he finished in the top 5 of defenseman goal scoring 7 times. He has good mobility and is a willing scrapper, but his lack of defensive polish will limit his playing time. Moose Johnson while fleet of foot and able offensively will have a primary role of shutdown defenseman and PK duty. His unique combination of mobility and huge 99†wingspan will give attackers fits, as he forces them wide and clogs passing lanes with his active stick.
An intelligent defender, a fine rusher, and one of the best passers of his time, Lester Patrick will be more than able of filling any hole that opens up.
Goaltenders:
Chuck Rayner
Rayner is a highly mobile puck moving goalie, with a lightning quick poke check. While playing behind less than stellar teams for his entire career, he managed to get the Rangers within a goal of the Stanley Cup in 1950. The Rangers played 5 of the 7 games in Detroit, with the other two being played in Toronto. Rayner is also an able scrapper, having once thrashed Kenny Reardon in a fight. One of only two goalies with a Hart and a “Conn Smythe.â€Chuck Rayner
Chabot was a big but quick goaltender with a career playoff GAA of 1.54. He led both the Rangers and Leafs to their first Stanley Cups.
A talkative and friendly goalie who was popular with teammates, fans and the press. He wont see much playing time, but his heroics in the Isles come from behind run in the 75 playoffs, shows he is capable of getting the job done.
PP1: Cook - Boucher - Cook - Robinson - Fetisov
PP2: MacKay - Petrov - Maltsev - Larson - Barber
PK1: Barber - Boucher - Robinson - Goldham
PK2: Walker - MacKay - Johnson - Dutton
Larry Robinson – 6’4â€, 225 lbs, Shoots: left
Viacheslav Fetisov - 6'1", 220 lbs, Shoots: left
Bill Cook - 5'10", 175 lbs, Shoots: right
Frank Boucher - 5'9", 185 lbs, Shoots: left
Alexander Maltsev - 5'9", 174 lbs, Shoots: left
Bill Barber - 6'0", 195 lbs, Shoots: left
Vladimir Petrov - 6'0", 198 lbs, Shoots: right
John Tonelli - 6'1", 200 lbs, Shoots: left
Bob Goldham – 6’1â€, 195 lbs, Shoots: right
Trevor Linden – 6’4â€, 220 lbs, Shoots: right
Bun Cook - 5'11", 180 lbs, Shoots: left
Reed Larson - 6'0", 195 lbs, Shoots: right
Chuck Rayner - 5'11", 190 lbs, Catches: left
Ernie Johnson - 6'1", 188 lbs, Shoots: left
Mickey MacKay - 5'9", 162 lbs, Shoots: left
Jack Walker - 5'8", 153 lbs, Shoots: left
Bob Nevin - 6'0", 185 lbs, Shoots: right
Lorne Chabot - 6'1", 185 lbs, Catches: left
Pat Burns, coach
Red Dutton - 6'0", 185 lbs, Shoots: right
Lester Patrick – 6’1â€, 180 lbs, Shoots: left
Ron Duguay – 6’2â€, 200 lbs, Shoots: right
Glenn Resch - 5'9", 165 lbs, Catches: left
Jack Marshall - 5'9", 160 lbs, Shoots: ?left?
Team averages (with spares) shots
G: 6’0â€, 187.5 (5’11â€, 180) r-l 0-3
D: 6’1.2â€, 201.3 (6’1.1â€, 198.3) r-l 3-4
F: 5’11.2â€, 185.6 (5’11.1â€, 183.6) r-l 5-8
John Flyers Fan - Philadelphia Flyers
Bobby Clarke – 5’10â€, 185
Martin Brodeur – 6’2â€, 205
Brendan Shanahan - 6’3â€, 218 r
Sergei Makarov - 5’11â€, 185
Mark Howe - 5’11, 185
Luc Robitaille - 6’1â€, 215
Herb Gardiner – 5’10â€, 190
Steve Larmer – 5’11â€, 195
Kent Nilsson – 6’1â€, 195
Pat Verbeek – 5’9â€, 192 r
Petr Svoboda – 6’1â€, 198
Chris Drury – 5’10â€, 180 r
Eddie Gerard – 5’9â€, 168
Si Griffis – 6’1â€, 195
Steve Smith – 6’4â€, 215
Frank Foyston – 5’9â€, 158
Kris Draper – 5’11â€, 185
Mike Keenan, coach
Roy Worters – 5’3â€, 135
Willi Plett – 6â r
Vyacheslav Bykov – 5’8â€, 161
Andrei Khumutov – 5’9â€, 176
Darryl Sydor – 6’1â€, 205
Ken Wregget – 6’1â€, 201
Team averages (with spares) shots
G: 5’8.5â€, 170 (5’10â€, 180.3) r-l 0-3
D: 6’0â€, 191.8 (6’0.1â€, 193.7) r-l 0-6
F: 5’11.1â€, 188.8 (5’11.1â€, 188.5) r-l 4-9
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
Shanahan - Clarke - Makarov -- The perfect blend. All three kill penalties and play in the power play. You have size, git, speed, playmaking and goalscoring. A dominant face-off man, and one of the game's all-time great leaders. Two great playmakers, and two great goal scorers.
Robitaille - Nilsson - Foyston - The "Magic Man" will use his brilliant playmaking abilities to set up two of the games all-time great goal scorers. Foyston is the small but speedy game breaker, perhaps the first to ever score 200 goals, Robitaille is the all-time leading scorer at LW. What he lacks in foot speed he makes up for with some of the best hands the game has ever seen.
Drury - Draper - Larmer - the shutdown line that can also provide instant offense, All three are also excellent penalty killers, and Drury and Draper are both excellent face-off men.
Verbeek - Bykov - Plett - It wll be used as a energgy line ... with Verbeek and Plett mixing it up and changing the momentum with physical play. Bykov is the defensive consience, as well as th eplaymaker that can take advantage of the turnoversthat Verbeek and Plett cause with their physical play.
Gardiner - Howe - Gardiner, the Hart trophy winning rock solid defenseman (edged out Bill Cook) began his career out west before being signed by the Montreal Canadiens. member of the last non-NHL team wo capture the Cup. Howe is the silky smooth all-around defenseman, who was a US Olympian at 16, Memorial Cup MVP at 17 .... 2nd team LW in the WHA at at 19 ... 1st team at 24. He moved to the NHL and had three 1st team all-star selections of defense, to go along with 3 Norris trophy runner-ups.
Gerard - Griffis - Gerard - Three time captain of the Stanley Cup Champion Ottawa Senators. He played alongside Sprague Cleghorne and formed an impeitrible wall. Won the stanley cup four times as a player, and ince more as a coach. One of the 12 original members of the HHoF. Griffis - His blazing speed allowed thim to dominate as a rover in the 7 man game, and then as a defenseman in the 6 man game. Captained the vancouver millionaires to a Cup win, two Staley cups. A brilliant puck rushing defenseman, the perfect compantion to the rock solid Gerard.
Smith - Svoboda - Bothe physical defenseman with the ability to move the puck. four Stanley Cups and an Olympic Gold medal between the two.
Martin Brodeur - 3 Stanley Cups, 1 olympic Gold, 1 World Cup title. Will soon hold all-time records in both wins and shutouts. Currently two 1st team all-stars, Three 2nd's .... 3 Jenning's trophies, Calder Trophy, Two vezina's ... and wil likely add more hardware in the coming weeks (nominated for the hart, Vezina, and will at worst be a 2nd team all-star) ..... Consistant ... night in an dnight out Brodeur will be in goal, and provide elite level netminding to go along with the best puck handling by a goalie the game has ever seen.
Robitaille - Nilsson - Foyston - The "Magic Man" will use his brilliant playmaking abilities to set up two of the games all-time great goal scorers. Foyston is the small but speedy game breaker, perhaps the first to ever score 200 goals, Robitaille is the all-time leading scorer at LW. What he lacks in foot speed he makes up for with some of the best hands the game has ever seen.
Drury - Draper - Larmer - the shutdown line that can also provide instant offense, All three are also excellent penalty killers, and Drury and Draper are both excellent face-off men.
Verbeek - Bykov - Plett - It wll be used as a energgy line ... with Verbeek and Plett mixing it up and changing the momentum with physical play. Bykov is the defensive consience, as well as th eplaymaker that can take advantage of the turnoversthat Verbeek and Plett cause with their physical play.
Gardiner - Howe - Gardiner, the Hart trophy winning rock solid defenseman (edged out Bill Cook) began his career out west before being signed by the Montreal Canadiens. member of the last non-NHL team wo capture the Cup. Howe is the silky smooth all-around defenseman, who was a US Olympian at 16, Memorial Cup MVP at 17 .... 2nd team LW in the WHA at at 19 ... 1st team at 24. He moved to the NHL and had three 1st team all-star selections of defense, to go along with 3 Norris trophy runner-ups.
Gerard - Griffis - Gerard - Three time captain of the Stanley Cup Champion Ottawa Senators. He played alongside Sprague Cleghorne and formed an impeitrible wall. Won the stanley cup four times as a player, and ince more as a coach. One of the 12 original members of the HHoF. Griffis - His blazing speed allowed thim to dominate as a rover in the 7 man game, and then as a defenseman in the 6 man game. Captained the vancouver millionaires to a Cup win, two Staley cups. A brilliant puck rushing defenseman, the perfect compantion to the rock solid Gerard.
Smith - Svoboda - Bothe physical defenseman with the ability to move the puck. four Stanley Cups and an Olympic Gold medal between the two.
Martin Brodeur - 3 Stanley Cups, 1 olympic Gold, 1 World Cup title. Will soon hold all-time records in both wins and shutouts. Currently two 1st team all-stars, Three 2nd's .... 3 Jenning's trophies, Calder Trophy, Two vezina's ... and wil likely add more hardware in the coming weeks (nominated for the hart, Vezina, and will at worst be a 2nd team all-star) ..... Consistant ... night in an dnight out Brodeur will be in goal, and provide elite level netminding to go along with the best puck handling by a goalie the game has ever seen.
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
Strategy - Keenan loves to ride his horses ... and the top 3 lines will get thre majority of the ice time.
Without the home-ice advantage, the Clarke or draper lines will be on the ice for any defenseive zone draws with the bread line on the ice. Having great face-off men will enable us to control the puck and get the line match-ups we're looking for on the road, which is just keeping the nilsson line away from the Bread line. We will welcome a head-to-head battle of the top lines
Advantages:
Bobby Clarke: Again clearly the best forward on the series and the best all-around skater. He was dominant in the opening series victory and we expect him to be so agaon. great combination of offense and defense. He also always gave larry Robinson fits. Will just be waiting for rayner to stray out of the net with the puck, waiting to strip him clean for an easy goal.
Martin Brodeur: Huge goaltending edge. Brodeur is in the ultra-elit class of goaltenders ... top 6 without question. Rayner is a nice goale, but quite possibly the weakest of the remaining starters, and might be the only one with a Stanley Cup or Olympic Gold medal on his resume.
My biggest weakness is size on the blueline in my to pfour, but the Devils have very little size among their top 3 lines, mitigating what could have been an issue. The Devils 4th line does have plenty of grit and size, but our 3rd defenisve pairing of Smith and Svoboda will match-up just fine physically ... and the great transition game generated by Brodeur, Grifis, howe, gardiner and Gerard, will limit the a heav forecheck.
The Bread line - their chemistry would have been a huge factor in October, but after playing 90 games to this point the Flyers are a cohesive unit, and team chemistry is not going to be big advantage one way or another.
Ovbviously the Devils have a clear advantage in having two of the top 12 defenseman of all-time in Robinson and Fetisov. While that won't be an easy hurdle to overcome, We believe that the superior 1st line and the dominant goaltending of Brodeur will carry the day.
Without the home-ice advantage, the Clarke or draper lines will be on the ice for any defenseive zone draws with the bread line on the ice. Having great face-off men will enable us to control the puck and get the line match-ups we're looking for on the road, which is just keeping the nilsson line away from the Bread line. We will welcome a head-to-head battle of the top lines
Advantages:
Bobby Clarke: Again clearly the best forward on the series and the best all-around skater. He was dominant in the opening series victory and we expect him to be so agaon. great combination of offense and defense. He also always gave larry Robinson fits. Will just be waiting for rayner to stray out of the net with the puck, waiting to strip him clean for an easy goal.
Martin Brodeur: Huge goaltending edge. Brodeur is in the ultra-elit class of goaltenders ... top 6 without question. Rayner is a nice goale, but quite possibly the weakest of the remaining starters, and might be the only one with a Stanley Cup or Olympic Gold medal on his resume.
My biggest weakness is size on the blueline in my to pfour, but the Devils have very little size among their top 3 lines, mitigating what could have been an issue. The Devils 4th line does have plenty of grit and size, but our 3rd defenisve pairing of Smith and Svoboda will match-up just fine physically ... and the great transition game generated by Brodeur, Grifis, howe, gardiner and Gerard, will limit the a heav forecheck.
The Bread line - their chemistry would have been a huge factor in October, but after playing 90 games to this point the Flyers are a cohesive unit, and team chemistry is not going to be big advantage one way or another.
Ovbviously the Devils have a clear advantage in having two of the top 12 defenseman of all-time in Robinson and Fetisov. While that won't be an easy hurdle to overcome, We believe that the superior 1st line and the dominant goaltending of Brodeur will carry the day.
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
One other note .... home ice may mean less in this series than any played this spring.
The Meadowlands will be at least 1/3rd full of fans wearing the orange and black.
In the three playoff series played between the two clubs the home team has just 7 wins in 18 games.
The Meadowlands will be at least 1/3rd full of fans wearing the orange and black.
In the three playoff series played between the two clubs the home team has just 7 wins in 18 games.
The first thing that stands out is the big edge in net for Philadelphia. Both goaltenders will ease the load on their defensemen by moving the puck up ice, but in terms of stopping the puck, Brodeur has a large advantage.
The Devils counter this difference in net by a big advantage on defense. They have two defenders who are head and shoulders better than the Flyers' best. The Flyers have a steady bunch who should limit the quality scoring chances against, but New Jersey will get significant contributions from their D on both ends of the ice.
If the top lines go up against each other, it will be a terrific matchup. Both top lines are more than capable offensively, strong defensively and physical. It will be an interesting matchup to say the least, and is very close in terms of ability (though I'd give a slight edge to Philadelphia).
New Jersey counteracts that advantage that the Flyers with a superior second line. Barber-Petrov-Maltsev will provide much stronger defensive play than Robitaille-Nilsson-Foyston without giving up too much offensively.
I like the grit throughout Philly's bottom-6 more than New Jersey's, but New Jersey's is more capable offensively.
The keys for Philly will be getting Brodeur to give them a huge advantage in net and for their first line to outproduce New Jersey's first line. New Jersey needs their defense to step up and play huge on both ends on the ice, and to get consistent scoring from lines 2 through 4.
The Devils counter this difference in net by a big advantage on defense. They have two defenders who are head and shoulders better than the Flyers' best. The Flyers have a steady bunch who should limit the quality scoring chances against, but New Jersey will get significant contributions from their D on both ends of the ice.
If the top lines go up against each other, it will be a terrific matchup. Both top lines are more than capable offensively, strong defensively and physical. It will be an interesting matchup to say the least, and is very close in terms of ability (though I'd give a slight edge to Philadelphia).
New Jersey counteracts that advantage that the Flyers with a superior second line. Barber-Petrov-Maltsev will provide much stronger defensive play than Robitaille-Nilsson-Foyston without giving up too much offensively.
I like the grit throughout Philly's bottom-6 more than New Jersey's, but New Jersey's is more capable offensively.
The keys for Philly will be getting Brodeur to give them a huge advantage in net and for their first line to outproduce New Jersey's first line. New Jersey needs their defense to step up and play huge on both ends on the ice, and to get consistent scoring from lines 2 through 4.
BM67
Registered User
I'll address just this one for now. I can't believe how much Rayner is getting dumped on lately. He doesn't have a 20 year career with a dynasty team, but he isn't just an average goalie.
He is one of only 6 goalies to win the Hart Trophy. He has a .500 playoff record when he played more games in Detroit than he played in New York. Of his 18 career playoff games: Toronto 2, Montreal 3, NY 5, Detroit 8
In 1950, he beat a Montreal team that went to the next 10 Finals in the first round, and got the decidedly underdog Rangers within one double OT goal of a Stanley Cup against the Red Wings, who were in the midst of their 7 straight 1st place finishes, while only playing 2 games in NY. Easily one of the top 10 playoff goaltending performances of all-time.
Compare his record to the two HHoF NYR goalies that followed him over the next decade.
Rayner 45-53 GP 376 W 123 L 180 T 72 W% .424 GAA 2.99 PO GP 18 W 9 L 9 W% .500 GAA 2.43
Worsley 52-63 GP 582 W 204 L 271 T 101 W% .442 GAA 3.09 PO GP 20 W 5 L 15 W% .250 GAA 4.19
Bower 53-57 GP 77 W 31 L 35 T 11 W% .474 GAA 2.62 PO None
Rayner beat out Broda, Brimsek, Lumley, Henry and Rollins for his 3 all-star spots.
Brodeur has to be given an edge, but since Rayner is also a contender for Marty's crown of best puck-handling goalie of all-time, I can't see it as that big an edge.
Now if you want to talk about having a 5'3" backup.
Amazingly close match-up. I slightly favour Philly, only because of Brodeur. However, I have to agree wit pits, I read up on a lot of players from both teams, arguably Philly has the better offense , but I think NJ has the better D by a decent margin. I'm still leaning towards the Flyers.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
Rayner is good, very good even, but, he's up against Martin Brodeur, it is a large advantage, it's foolish to try and deny it. Just find a way to over come it.
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
Now if you want to talk about having a 5'3" backup.
By back-up won't play a minute during the series, but that being said:
My 5'3 goalie is a helluva lot closer to Rayner, than Rayner is to Brodeur.
Rayner
Hart Trophy
2nd team all-star - three times
Worters
Hart Trophy
Vezina Trophy (separate years)
2nd team all-star - twice
Spitfire11
Registered User
I'll try to do a more in-depth review later.
I think Philly has the better 1st and 3rd lines and NJ the better 2nd and 4th lines. Overall, offense favours the Flyers although I think NJ will have an easier time rolling 4 lines while Philly might end up having to rely on two lines when holding a lead.
Defense is a huge advantage to NJ, their blueline outclasses Philly's in every aspect.
In net, Brodeur has the obvious edge.
It's close, but I'm favouring NJ to take this one.
I think Philly has the better 1st and 3rd lines and NJ the better 2nd and 4th lines. Overall, offense favours the Flyers although I think NJ will have an easier time rolling 4 lines while Philly might end up having to rely on two lines when holding a lead.
Defense is a huge advantage to NJ, their blueline outclasses Philly's in every aspect.
In net, Brodeur has the obvious edge.
It's close, but I'm favouring NJ to take this one.
BM67
Registered User
The Flyers have 5 players that have led a league in goals, assists or points, while the Devils have 7, including 2 on our 3rd line. There isn't a player on any of my top 3 lines that didn't make the top 10 in goals, assists and points.
Bun Cook, the "weak link" on our 1st line, finished as high as 4th in goals, 2nd in assists, and 7th in points. Brendan Shanahan finished as high as 5th in goals, and 8th in points, while never reaching the top 10 in assists.
Bill Barber, the "weak link" on our 2nd line, finished as high as 5th in goals, 9th in assists, and 4th in points. Luc Robitaille finished as high as 4th in goals, 10th in assists, and 5th in points.
Bob Nevin, the "weak link" on our 3rd line, finished as high as 8th in goals, 10th in assists, and 8th in points. Steve Larmer finished as high as 10th in goals, 10th in assists, and 10th in points.
Bun Cook, the "weak link" on our 1st line, finished as high as 4th in goals, 2nd in assists, and 7th in points. Brendan Shanahan finished as high as 5th in goals, and 8th in points, while never reaching the top 10 in assists.
Bill Barber, the "weak link" on our 2nd line, finished as high as 5th in goals, 9th in assists, and 4th in points. Luc Robitaille finished as high as 4th in goals, 10th in assists, and 5th in points.
Bob Nevin, the "weak link" on our 3rd line, finished as high as 8th in goals, 10th in assists, and 8th in points. Steve Larmer finished as high as 10th in goals, 10th in assists, and 10th in points.
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
I love Bill Barber brought other things to the table, but Robitaille was clearly the better offensive player.
Shanahan brings far more than just points to the table, he also brings, size, aggressiveness and can and will be a punishing physical player, opening up room for others.
Sergei Makarov is clearly the biggest game breaker in the series:
Soviet League:
11 league titles
9 time scoring champ
8 time 1st all-star selection
3 time player of the year
Olympics
2 gold
1 silver
1981 Canada cup Champ
World Championships
11 time champ
8 time 1st all-star selection
World Jr.'s
2 gold medals
1 MVP
Twice a winner of the "golden stick" for best player in europe.
BM67
Registered User
Robitaille vs Barber at their best offensively is very close. It's only in career that Robitaille is clearly better offensively.
Bun Cook gives you everything Shanahan does except for the size and the penalty minutes.
Bill Cook:
4 scoring titles
5 goal scoring titles
7 all-star teams (with 4 years played with no all-stars named)
Captained the Rangers to 2 Cups and 4 Finals
Pro career didn't start till he was 26, and his NHL career when he was 30
Out of hockey for 5 years while serving in WWI and beyond
Bun Cook gives you everything Shanahan does except for the size and the penalty minutes.
Bill Cook:
4 scoring titles
5 goal scoring titles
7 all-star teams (with 4 years played with no all-stars named)
Captained the Rangers to 2 Cups and 4 Finals
Pro career didn't start till he was 26, and his NHL career when he was 30
Out of hockey for 5 years while serving in WWI and beyond
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
Size matters ...
As an all-around player I think you can make a case for Barber vs. Robitaille but not offensively. a quick look at their all-star selections:
Barber (never in consecutive seasons)
1st team all-star - 1
2nd team all-star - 2
Robitaille (7 consecutive to start career)
1st team all-star - 5
2nd team all-star - 3
On the surface, you'd look at a series where one team has a legitimate edge offensively and in net, and you'd give that team the edge. But I think New Jersey has the edge in most other areas.
BM, you can spin it any way you want, but Philly has the definite edge in net. You had Brodeur in the last draft, and you picked him very high. I think Rayner was a solid pick, and I think he was the best goalie available when you picked him, and better than a couple other goalies who were drafted ahead of him (Richter and Vernon). But Brodeur's a top 10 goalie all-time, Rayner's in that 21-25 range. I don't think the gap from 1-25 is as significant as some would make it out to be, but there is an edge.
While BM did a great job in reuniting the Bread Line, I give the offensive edge to JFF. He has more gamebreakers, he has a more offensive line-up. But I expect that kind of line-up from him, and I expect a more well-rounded group of forwards from BM. It is a classic contrast in styles between two GMs who have different philosophies on how a team should be built.
JFF, I'd have Verbeek on that second line. I don't know too much about Foytson, but you really need an offensive player who can work the corners and open up room for Nilsson and Robitaille. Robitaille isn't physical or tough, and the less said about Nilsson when the puck isn't on his stick, the better. Verbeek can mix it up, work the corners and go battle for battle with BM's imposing defence. And he's a 500-goal scorer.
BM likely has the two biggest edges in this series: defence and grit. His defence is as good as it gets. TI2 loaded up on defence from the start, but it could be argued that BM's defence is every bit as good. He's the only one with two of the top 10 defencemen ever (Robinson and Fetisov). That's 30 minutes a game from each of them. He has the grit of Dutton and Johnson, the shot-blocking wizardry of Goldham, and the skill of Larson. And, in typical BM fashion, he has loaded up on guys who bring defensive play and toughness to a team: Bill Cook, Barber, Linden, Tonelli, and that entire third line. Nevin is very underrated. (Take from the guy who used an early pick on Nevin in the last farm draft). Outside of Bill Cook, Boucher and maybe Maltsev, they don't have that true game-breaker offensively, but they have scoring throughout the line-up, and a lot of guys you don't want to play against, especially in the playoffs.
That's not to say that Philly's forwards are soft, but you'd never see more than one guy like Robitaille, Nilsson or Makarov on BM's team.
The coaching match-up should be fun to watch. Side bet time: who'll smile first: Burns or Keenan? Two no-nonsense, demanding, hard-working coaches.
BM, you can spin it any way you want, but Philly has the definite edge in net. You had Brodeur in the last draft, and you picked him very high. I think Rayner was a solid pick, and I think he was the best goalie available when you picked him, and better than a couple other goalies who were drafted ahead of him (Richter and Vernon). But Brodeur's a top 10 goalie all-time, Rayner's in that 21-25 range. I don't think the gap from 1-25 is as significant as some would make it out to be, but there is an edge.
While BM did a great job in reuniting the Bread Line, I give the offensive edge to JFF. He has more gamebreakers, he has a more offensive line-up. But I expect that kind of line-up from him, and I expect a more well-rounded group of forwards from BM. It is a classic contrast in styles between two GMs who have different philosophies on how a team should be built.
JFF, I'd have Verbeek on that second line. I don't know too much about Foytson, but you really need an offensive player who can work the corners and open up room for Nilsson and Robitaille. Robitaille isn't physical or tough, and the less said about Nilsson when the puck isn't on his stick, the better. Verbeek can mix it up, work the corners and go battle for battle with BM's imposing defence. And he's a 500-goal scorer.
BM likely has the two biggest edges in this series: defence and grit. His defence is as good as it gets. TI2 loaded up on defence from the start, but it could be argued that BM's defence is every bit as good. He's the only one with two of the top 10 defencemen ever (Robinson and Fetisov). That's 30 minutes a game from each of them. He has the grit of Dutton and Johnson, the shot-blocking wizardry of Goldham, and the skill of Larson. And, in typical BM fashion, he has loaded up on guys who bring defensive play and toughness to a team: Bill Cook, Barber, Linden, Tonelli, and that entire third line. Nevin is very underrated. (Take from the guy who used an early pick on Nevin in the last farm draft). Outside of Bill Cook, Boucher and maybe Maltsev, they don't have that true game-breaker offensively, but they have scoring throughout the line-up, and a lot of guys you don't want to play against, especially in the playoffs.
That's not to say that Philly's forwards are soft, but you'd never see more than one guy like Robitaille, Nilsson or Makarov on BM's team.
The coaching match-up should be fun to watch. Side bet time: who'll smile first: Burns or Keenan? Two no-nonsense, demanding, hard-working coaches.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
I'd actually bump Robitaille or Nilsson before Foyston, Foyston is a big game scorer.I can't access the stats, but, in the cancelled final in I think 1919, when Lalonde scored 10 goals in 5 games, Foyston was right on his neck with 8 or 9 goals. The benefit is, Foyston can play any position, so, IMO, Robitaille-Foyston-Verbeek would be better option, or, even, Verbeek-Foyston-Larmer
BM67
Registered User
Some numbers to consider.
Based on giving each player points based on how he did in comparison to the guy who finished second in the NHL each year in goals, assists and points. Bill Cook leads the NHL with 33 goals, and Babe Dye is second with 25. Bill Cook gets 1.32 and Babe Dye gets 1, and so on. This years stats are not included.
The tables give career totals, best single season, best 3 consecutive years, and average per year.
This are the top 5 in each catagory by yearly average.
Player|Total G|Highest G|Highest 3Y G|Total G/Y
Bill Cook|8.090805|1.32|3.037037|0.736
Luc Robitaille|12.54915|0.946529|2.535877|0.660
Brendan Shanahan|11.56931|0.931818|2.408331|0.643
Bill Barber|7.432873|0.892857|2.188213|0.619
Bun Cook|5.625486|0.814815|2.001481|0.511
Player|Total A|Highest A|Highest 3Y A|Total A/Y
Bobby Clarke|11.12607|1.253521|3.166565|0.742
Frank Boucher|10.38112|1.16129|3.227957|0.742
Kent Nilsson|5.045907|1|1.982281|0.561
Chris Drury|3.853908|0.839286|1.888034|0.551
Bun Cook|5.838967|1|1.933333|0.531
Player|Total P|Highest P|Highest 3Y P|Total P/Y
Bill Cook|8.226528|1.136364|2.971364|0.748
Frank Boucher|9.421361|1|2.793988|0.673
Bobby Clarke|9.83489|1|2.626501|0.656
Luc Robitaille|11.81742|0.869919|2.43118|0.622
Bun Cook|6.770818|0.840909|2.281705|0.616
Of note is that Foyston and Walker played together on 3 Cup winners, and Foyston only outscored Walker in one of those playoffs. In fact Walker was the leading scorer in the playoffs in 1925.
I also note that the Flyers are without a single Conn Smythe winner. The Devils have Robinson and 3 retro winners in Walker, Boucher and Rayner.
I think you might want to consider Petrov, with 5 Soviet league scoring titles, 4 World Championship scoring titles, as a game breaker. He is the last player to score 50 goals in the Soviet League and holds the single tournament records for goals, assists and points at the Worlds.
Based on giving each player points based on how he did in comparison to the guy who finished second in the NHL each year in goals, assists and points. Bill Cook leads the NHL with 33 goals, and Babe Dye is second with 25. Bill Cook gets 1.32 and Babe Dye gets 1, and so on. This years stats are not included.
The tables give career totals, best single season, best 3 consecutive years, and average per year.
This are the top 5 in each catagory by yearly average.
Bill Cook|8.090805|1.32|3.037037|0.736
Luc Robitaille|12.54915|0.946529|2.535877|0.660
Brendan Shanahan|11.56931|0.931818|2.408331|0.643
Bill Barber|7.432873|0.892857|2.188213|0.619
Bun Cook|5.625486|0.814815|2.001481|0.511
Bobby Clarke|11.12607|1.253521|3.166565|0.742
Frank Boucher|10.38112|1.16129|3.227957|0.742
Kent Nilsson|5.045907|1|1.982281|0.561
Chris Drury|3.853908|0.839286|1.888034|0.551
Bun Cook|5.838967|1|1.933333|0.531
Bill Cook|8.226528|1.136364|2.971364|0.748
Frank Boucher|9.421361|1|2.793988|0.673
Bobby Clarke|9.83489|1|2.626501|0.656
Luc Robitaille|11.81742|0.869919|2.43118|0.622
Bun Cook|6.770818|0.840909|2.281705|0.616
Of note is that Foyston and Walker played together on 3 Cup winners, and Foyston only outscored Walker in one of those playoffs. In fact Walker was the leading scorer in the playoffs in 1925.
I also note that the Flyers are without a single Conn Smythe winner. The Devils have Robinson and 3 retro winners in Walker, Boucher and Rayner.
I think you might want to consider Petrov, with 5 Soviet league scoring titles, 4 World Championship scoring titles, as a game breaker. He is the last player to score 50 goals in the Soviet League and holds the single tournament records for goals, assists and points at the Worlds.
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
Never said that Petrov wasn't a gamebreaker .. there are a few in this series, but Makarov is the best of the bunch.
I'm not a big fan of the retro Conn Smythe.
While discussing trophies I see that you neglected to mention the most prestigious of them all the Hart Trophy. That wouldn't be because not a single one of your 20 skaters owns one, is it ???
Yes, I know Rayner owns one, but my back-up goalie, Worters, matched that one.
As for skaters - Clarke owns 3 Hart trophies.
1927 at the height of the Breadline's success, with Bill Cook leading the NHL in goals and points ... who was awarded the Hart Trophy ..... Herb Gardiner.
Also we haven't even discussed the coaching edge I have ....
BM67
Registered User
It was GBC that gave a list of gamebreakers.
I guess you wouldn't care for the fact that the writers of Ultimate Hockey selected 5 Harts before 1924, 8 Norrises before 1954, and 17 Selkes before 1977 then. They also selected your players for 2, 3 and 2 respectfully as well.
Based mostly on the big improvement Montreal saw in the standings. I guess the voters didn't like Hainsworth, as he wasn't in the top 5 when he got 22 shutouts in 29 either.
Edge? Based on Burns' 3 Adams Trophy wins to Keenan's 1? Based on the fact that Keenan has left his last 5 coaching positions after fewer games than Burns has left any of his?
I show also point out that your team takes far more penalties than mine, so I should have an advantage on special teams as well.
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
Adams are a terrible way of judging coaches. Bill Barber was a terrible coach and has as many Adamas awards as Fred Shero, Roger Neilson and Bob johnson combined.
Both have 1 Stanley Cup.
Keenan also has 2 Canada Cups, 3 other finals appearances, a Calder Cup and a CIS Championship.
The mid-80's Flyers were coming off three consecutive seasons being eliminated in round #1, losigng 9 straight plaoff games. Going into the 84-85 season they then lost 3 Hall of Famers: Clarke, barber and Sittler ..... Keenan takes that team and leads them to two finals apearances in three years.
Burns 15 playoff series wins in in his first 14 years of coaching. Also the year he left Montreal , Jaques Demers came in and led them to a Stanley Cup.
Keenan 18 playof series wins. Also he's just going to be the coach in Philadelpiha, no personnell control, which is where he ended up getting himself in trouble late in his career. The perfect one season, one playoff head coach .... see, NY 1994.
BM67
Registered User
Pat Burns is also an excellent first year coach. The 4 teams he has coached have seen a combined improvement of 69 GF, 200 GA, 87 points and 36 playoff wins, compared to the year before he took over each team. He guided Montreal to the Finals, Toronto to the Conference Finals, Boston to a first round exit to an eventual Finalist, and New Jersey to a Stanley Cup in his first year with each team.
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
BM67
Registered User
I guess we should talk about the place where I have the biggest edge in the series, on Defense.
I have the best 2 defensemen in Robinson and Fetisov. I have the better offense and defense from top to bottom. All of your size on D is in your bottom spots, and you don't have a single righty shot on D. I on the other hand have 3 righties, including the huge shot of Larson for those key moments.
I have the best 2 defensemen in Robinson and Fetisov. I have the better offense and defense from top to bottom. All of your size on D is in your bottom spots, and you don't have a single righty shot on D. I on the other hand have 3 righties, including the huge shot of Larson for those key moments.
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
You clearly have the two best defenseman, no doubt about that, that is where your edge lies.
I have the better offense. I also have the better transition game. All 7 of my defenseman can skate and move the puck.
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