All Time Best Undrafted Player?

[BretterThanYou]

Topic title gives it away, I was curious as to who you HFers think is the best Undrafted (Free Agent) NHL Player ever (in the modern draft era). Side question are any Undrafted players in the HoF?

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[vadim sharifijanov]

1. bobby orr 2. wayne gretzky 3. gordie howe?

 

[BretterThanYou]

1. bobby orr 2. wayne gretzky 3. gordie howe?

I was looking more for modern draft era, I don't think Gretzky really counts because he came in as an Oiler and was already under contract with them upon the move from the WHA, I meant undrafted free agent, but I didn't really clarify.

 

[JackSlater]

If you're excluding European guys like Stastny and Salming that were already well known commodities when they were signed, then I would have to say Oates.

 

[kaiser matias]

St. Louis is making a run for the best undrafted player. I do believe he is the only one to have won the Hart Trophy so far.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Off the top of my head, if you remove Gretzky and pre-draft guys from the equation, Ed Belfour.

 

[seventieslord]

off the top of my head, after making various exceptions for other players (overseas in the 70s/80s, Gretzky, pre-expansion, etc), Oates and Belfour are the two who would challenge for my top-120 list.

 

[Heat McManus]

Oates gets my vote.

 

[jkrx]

Belfour and Oates.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Martin St.Louis.

 

[Blades of Glory]

I'm surprised everyone has forgotten about Tim Kerr. He was an unbelievable goal-scorer in his prime, and was well on his way to the HHOF before he succumbed to injuries. Bryan Trottier once said that "it was physically impossible" to Tim Kerr out of the slot.

Top-3 in goals three times, and what makes that even more impressive is that he did it without the benefit of an elite playmaker feeding him. While Michel Goulet had Peter Stastny, Mike Bossy had Bryan Trottier, and Jari Kurri had Wayne Gretzky, Kerr was consistently a major factor in the goal-scoring race with Dave Poulin centering him.

Here are some others that are not as well-remembered as the Belfours, Oates, and Mullens:

Rene Robert; the forgotten third part of the French Connection.
Dave Poulin; an important leader and two-way center for the Flyers in the 1980's. Iconic 3-on-5 short-handed goal against Quebec in 1985 playoffs.
Guy Lapointe; part of the "Big 3" that was the glue of like 10 Montreal Stanley Cup teams (he won 6), but was, and still is, overshadowed by Larry Robinson and Serge Savard. That said, there is a reason that Guy Lapointe is in the HHOF.
Steve Duchesne; a top offensive defenseman who scored 20 goals four times.
Geoff Courtnall; very good second line winger and clutch playoff performer. It's easy to forget that he won a Stanley Cup as a fourth liner on the last Gretzky-era Oilers team in 1988. I often do.

My all-time undrafted team (not including those who were undrafted for obvious reasons)

Steve Thomas-Adam Oates-Tim Kerr
Guy Lapointe-Steve Duchesne
Ed Belfour

 

[jkrx]

I'm surprised everyone has forgotten about Tim Kerr. He was an unbelievable goal-scorer in his prime, and was well on his way to the HHOF before he succumbed to injuries. Bryan Trottier once said that "it was physically impossible" to Tim Kerr out of the slot.

Top-3 in goals three times, and what makes that even more impressive is that he did it without the benefit of an elite playmaker feeding him. While Michel Goulet had Peter Stastny, Mike Bossy had Bryan Trottier, and Jari Kurri had Wayne Gretzky, Kerr was consistently a major factor in the goal-scoring race with Dave Poulin centering him.

Here are some others that are not as well-remembered as the Belfours, Oates, and Mullens:

Rene Robert; the forgotten third part of the French Connection.
Dave Poulin; an important leader and two-way center for the Flyers in the 1980's. Iconic 3-on-5 short-handed goal against Quebec in 1985 playoffs.
Guy Lapointe; part of the "Big 3" that was the glue of like 10 Montreal Stanley Cup teams (he won 6), but was, and still is, overshadowed by Larry Robinson and Serge Savard. That said, there is a reason that Guy Lapointe is in the HHOF.
Steve Duchesne; a top offensive defenseman who scored 20 goals four times.
Geoff Courtnall; very good second line winger and clutch playoff performer

My all-time undrafted team (not including Europeans who were undrafted for obvious reasons)

Steve Thomas-Adam Oates-Tim Kerr
Guy Lapointe-Steve Duchesne
Ed Belfour

I seriously dont know how I forgot Courtnall, Dushesne and Poulin.

 

[Blades of Glory]

I seriously dont know how I forgot Courtnall, Dushesne and Poulin.

I always used to assume that Geoff Courtnall was drafted because his career was so identical to his brother's career that I figured if Russ Courtnall was drafted in the first round, Geoff had to have been picked too.

Honestly, Geoff and Russ Courtnall have almost identical careers. It's scary.

Games played: Geoff 1048, Russ 1029
Regular season point/game: Geoff .76, Russ .72
Playoff point/game: Geoff .69, Russ .65

Still, I think when the name "Courtnall" comes up, more people remember Russ because of his OT goal against Hartford in '92. Even though Russ did score 3 playoff OT goals, I still always believed his older brother was a slightly better playoff performer. They might not have been the best brother duo in NHL history, but they had to have been the most even brother duo.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

I'm surprised everyone has forgotten about Tim Kerr. He was an unbelievable goal-scorer in his prime, and was well on his way to the HHOF before he succumbed to injuries. Bryan Trottier once said that "it was physically impossible" to Tim Kerr out of the slot.

Top-3 in goals three times, and what makes that even more impressive is that he did it without the benefit of an elite playmaker feeding him. While Michel Goulet had Peter Stastny, Mike Bossy had Bryan Trottier, and Jari Kurri had Wayne Gretzky, Kerr was consistently a major factor in the goal-scoring race with Dave Poulin centering him.

Here are some others that are not as well-remembered as the Belfours, Oates, and Mullens:

Rene Robert; the forgotten third part of the French Connection.
Dave Poulin; an important leader and two-way center for the Flyers in the 1980's. Iconic 3-on-5 short-handed goal against Quebec in 1985 playoffs.
Guy Lapointe; part of the "Big 3" that was the glue of like 10 Montreal Stanley Cup teams (he won 6), but was, and still is, overshadowed by Larry Robinson and Serge Savard. That said, there is a reason that Guy Lapointe is in the HHOF.
Steve Duchesne; a top offensive defenseman who scored 20 goals four times.
Geoff Courtnall; very good second line winger and clutch playoff performer. It's easy to forget that he won a Stanley Cup as a fourth liner on the last Gretzky-era Oilers team in 1988. I often do.

My all-time undrafted team (not including those who were undrafted for obvious reasons)

Steve Thomas-Adam Oates-Tim Kerr
Guy Lapointe-Steve Duchesne
Ed Belfour

Lapointe was already of member of the Montreal Canadiens farm system prior to the first entry draft. He played his first game for the Habs in 68-69 and the 1st draft was the following summer. I think I'd add Rafalski instead of Lapointe since he was a true free agent signing. I'd also switch Thomas for St. Louis and Kerr for Ciccarelli.

 

[jkrx]

I always used to assume that Geoff Courtnall was drafted because his career was so identical to his brother's career that I figured if Russ Courtnall was drafted in the first round, Geoff had to have been picked too.

Honestly, Geoff and Russ Courtnall have almost identical careers. It's scary.

Games played: Geoff 1048, Russ 1029
Regular season point/game: Geoff .76, Russ .72
Playoff point/game: Geoff .69, Russ .65

Still, I think when the name "Courtnall" comes up, more people remember Russ because of his OT goal against Hartford in '92. Even though Russ did score 3 playoff OT goals, I still always believed his older brother was a slightly better playoff performer. They might not have been the best brother duo in NHL history, but they had to have been the most even brother duo.

Yes, that must be the reason. I see them both as equally good player and used to admire their careers. Both were solid NHLers who would do any job.

 

[Blades of Glory]

Lapointe was already of member of the Montreal Canadiens farm system prior to the first entry draft. He played his first game for the Habs in 68-69 and the 1st draft was the following summer. I think I'd add Rafalski instead of Lapointe since he was a true free agent signing. I'd also switch Thomas for St. Louis and Kerr for Ciccarelli.

Oh, I didn't know that. In that case, I would replace Lapointe, and I guess Brian Rafalski is the obvious choice. Despite the fact that he has benefited from playing with and around a few elite HHOF-bound defenseman, there's no arguing that Rafalski is clutch.

The reason I have Thomas over St. Louis is that Thomas is a LW while St. Louis is a RW. And at RW, I prefer the peak of Kerr to the longevity of Ciccarelli. I just can't put St. Louis over Kerr quite yet, but that's pretty much just my opinion and it could go either way. By the time MSL's career is done, I definitely will change my view on that, though.

Thomas-Oates-Kerr/St. Louis
Duchesne-Rafalski
Belfour

Goes to show you that the draft is actually pretty important. That five man group is really not that impressive outside of goal. I sure wouldn't want that defense pairing as my top pairing.

 

[jkrx]

Oh, I didn't know that. In that case, I would replace Lapointe, and I guess Brian Rafalski is the obvious choice. Despite the fact that he has benefited from playing with and around a few elite HHOF-bound defenseman, there's no arguing that Rafalski is clutch.

The reason I have Thomas over St. Louis is that Thomas is a LW while St. Louis is a RW. And at RW, I prefer the peak of Kerr to the longevity of Ciccarelli. I just can't put St. Louis over Kerr quite yet, but that's pretty much just my opinion and it could go either way. By the time MSL's career is done, I definitely will change my view on that, though.

Thomas-Oates-Kerr/St. Louis
Duchesne-Rafalski
Belfour

Goes to show you that the draft is actually pretty important. That five man group is really not that impressive outside of goal. I sure wouldn't want that defense pairing as my top pairing.

Its a good first line though. Here my undrafted team

Thomas - Oates - Kerr
G. Courtnall - White - Mullen
Kunitz - Poulin - Keane
Fedotenko - Madden - Doug Brown
Avery

Boyle - Rafalski
Dushesne - Macoun
Ledyard - Tinordi
McSorley

Belfour
Joseph
Roloson

honorary mention to:

Jason Blake
M-A Bergeron
Penner
Gorges
Halpern
Healy
Bäckström (The goalie)
Klemm
Kisio
Milbury

safe to say that you could probably take the cup with an undrafted team

 

[Blades of Glory]

Honestly, I don't know if that team wins the Stanley Cup. In fact, I don't think that team wins more than 1 round in the playoffs unless Ed Belfour stands on his head (quite possible).

They definitely have two outstanding checking lines centered by Dave Poulin and John Madden, but man, that top six is underwhelming. I just don't see those top two lines being capable of winning a Stanley Cup, especially not when supported by a defense that is astoundingly mediocre. Dan Boyle and Brian Rafalski is a solid top pairing, but beyond them, that defense isn't nearly good enough to make up for what is undoubtedly a forward group that is going to have trouble scoring goals.

I don't see that team being capable of going more than 2, maybe 3, rounds deep in the NHL playoffs.

 

[jkrx]

Honestly, I don't know if that team wins the Stanley Cup. In fact, I don't think that team wins more than 1 round in the playoffs unless Ed Belfour stands on his head (quite possible).

They definitely have two outstanding checking lines centered by Dave Poulin and John Madden, but man, that top six is underwhelming. I just don't see those top two lines being capable of winning a Stanley Cup, especially not when supported by a defense that is astoundingly mediocre. Dan Boyle and Brian Rafalski is a solid top pairing, but beyond them, that defense isn't nearly good enough to make up for what is undoubtedly a forward group that is going to have trouble scoring goals.

I don't see that team being capable of going more than 2, maybe 3, rounds deep in the NHL playoffs.

It would ofcourse be a cinderella run.

Dushesne and Macoun in their primes would be a solid pairing in my opinion. Aswell as Ledyard and Tinordi for leadership and tough tough defense.

I also think the the top6 (I agree that they are weak) should be able to get some goals in. Kerr and Mullen in their primes we're solid goal scorers. Thomas clears the way. White is weak I agree. Oates should be able to lift his line.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Honestly, I don't know if that team wins the Stanley Cup. In fact, I don't think that team wins more than 1 round in the playoffs unless Ed Belfour stands on his head (quite possible).

They definitely have two outstanding checking lines centered by Dave Poulin and John Madden, but man, that top six is underwhelming. I just don't see those top two lines being capable of winning a Stanley Cup, especially not when supported by a defense that is astoundingly mediocre. Dan Boyle and Brian Rafalski is a solid top pairing, but beyond them, that defense isn't nearly good enough to make up for what is undoubtedly a forward group that is going to have trouble scoring goals.

I don't see that team being capable of going more than 2, maybe 3, rounds deep in the NHL playoffs.

Inserting St. Louis into the top 6 would help, even if someone has to play an off wing, he's too good to pass up.

 

[jkrx]

Inserting St. Louis into the top 6 would help, even if someone has to play an off wing, he's too good to pass up.

Yeah... MSL would help... Maybe

Mullen - White - MSL?

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Honestly, I don't know if that team wins the Stanley Cup. In fact, I don't think that team wins more than 1 round in the playoffs unless Ed Belfour stands on his head (quite possible).

They definitely have two outstanding checking lines centered by Dave Poulin and John Madden, but man, that top six is underwhelming. I just don't see those top two lines being capable of winning a Stanley Cup, especially not when supported by a defense that is astoundingly mediocre. Dan Boyle and Brian Rafalski is a solid top pairing, but beyond them, that defense isn't nearly good enough to make up for what is undoubtedly a forward group that is going to have trouble scoring goals.

I don't see that team being capable of going more than 2, maybe 3, rounds deep in the NHL playoffs.

Really? If we assume those players are anywhere near their prime, I think they would win the SC most years... and pretty easily too. I might move Poulin up a line and White down a line, and maybe try to find space for Rene Robert, but really they're pretty solid.

I don't know how they'd stack up against "all-time" teams. The all-time French Canadian team could take 'em, but I think they might be able to take the all-time Dirty team from the other thread... provided they didn't get too injured.

BTW, as a person who got to see both the Courtnall's play, although they ended up with similar numbers, Geoff was way more of an dirty agitator that Russ was. Russ was an amazing skater and much more smooth on the ice. If he had finish to match the rest of his skills he'd have been in the HOF. Personally though, I liked Geoff better (when he was on my team). Nothing he'd like better than to punch a guy in the back of the head, draw a retaliation penalty, and then score on the ensuing power play.

 

[HockeyAustralia]

Duh. Gretzky

 

[MXD]

Eddie for me.

 

[goalsversusthreshold*]

Is the undrafted team allowed to trade players? Because dropping two of its three starting-quality goalies for some skaters would improve things a lot.