All Things AHL Part V

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Blueston

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It isn't just whether we are allowing goals with Barbs on the ice. At our best, defense leads to offense and just isn't happening enough. He isn't generating any offense, not just goals, but virtually no chances. Our 3rd line has been a black hole so far this year. Not all on him, but he needs to do more.
 

STL fan in MN

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All that standing around really burned him the 1 time there was a goal against in the over 60 minutes of time he has been on the ice with the 4th least favorable offensive zone-start percentage on the team. He's also allowed the 3rd least High-danger scoring chances against per amongst forwards. I don't mean to belittle you opinion, but I just didn't see him as being bad defensively as you did. Stats back me up, or at least say he is not getting burned for his poor play.

I just watched him play. Paid very close attention to him for 2 games. When the opposition had the puck in our zone, Barbs was very indecisive and passive. Not assertive and deferring to others. Whether it actually led to goals against, it led to a lot of play in the Blues zone and certainly not a lot of offense going the other way.

Don’t get me wrong. I really like Barbs and he was good at the end of last season and I’m sure he’ll rebound but he hasn’t been good so far this season.
 
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PiggySmalls

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I can see Kostin getting a taste of the Big club since his knee is reportedly ok. I would be surprised if he sticks though.

On Blais, I’m a little disappointed that he wasn’t able to stick. If he can learn to play at an 80% level and he productive he will be back up.
 

Captain Creampuff

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The problem with Blais was that he just looked outmatched in his short stint. I said in one preseason game that if he wanted to succeed, his first few steps needed to be quicker and it just seems like he doesn't have that extra gear.
 

Celtic Note

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All that standing around really burned him the 1 time there was a goal against in the over 60 minutes of time he has been on the ice with the 4th least favorable offensive zone-start percentage on the team. He's also allowed the 3rd least High-danger scoring chances against per amongst forwards. I don't mean to belittle you opinion, but I just didn't see him as being bad defensively as you did. Stats back me up, or at least say he is not getting burned for his poor play.
I appreciate the effort to bring in stats, but what do those stats tell us about his actual play other than he wasn’t on the ice for anything other than can be documented with stats? Stats really don’t tell you if he was lucky, if his play was subpar given his capabilities, his effort, his consistency, his line mates effort, etc. I would argue that he put more pressure on the defensive units than he should. Was he bad defensively? No. Was he good defensively? No. He simply was filling space all things considered.
 
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Majorityof1

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I appreciate the effort to bring in stats, but what do those stats tell us about his actual play other than he wasn’t on the ice for anything other than can be documented with stats? Stats really don’t tell you if he was lucky, if his play was subpar given his capabilities, his effort, his consistency, his line mates effort, etc. I would argue that he put more pressure on the defensive units than he should. Was he bad defensively? No. Was he good defensively? No. He simply was filling space all things considered.

This board, and all fandom, has a tendency to diminish contributions that aren't points. It has a tendency to assume that when a player's name is not being called out by Panger and Kelly, they are playing badly, and vice versa. Worst of all, it has a tendency to exaggerate deficiencies. We cannot compare eye tests because every one is subjective. "He looked bad" "No he didn't". How did that further the discussion? Honestly 99% of the eye tests on this board are seriously flawed anyway. I include mine in that 99% by the way. I have to watch certain plays multiple times to pick up stuff I miss the first time, so that helps me have a little more faith in my eyes. But I completely miss good and bad plays all the time on first viewing, especially play away from the puck. Bringing stats into it is a way to normalize the discussion and base it in verifiable fact. "Stl fan in IA" said he stood around looking lost on defense. I can't provide evidence he didn't "look lost". But I can bring evidence that the team was not hurt by his play. If someone stood around looking lost all the time, you'd think the other team would score more than once. Its not definitive proof, but its persuasive.

I agree with you that he has effort and consistency issues. But I don't agree he has been terrible. He is a 21 year old, who has not played 40 games yet and is going through some struggles. He is being bounced around the line-up and given terrible line-mates. The coach is calling him out in the media on a few occasions. So I'd think some inconsistency is to be expected. He definitely has to man up and play better offensively and more consistently all around. But to my eye, his defensive game has been good. No big errors given a lot of usage there. I disagree that he should be compared relative to his skills. He has played better than guys who have gotten consistent minutes. I disagree with the way Yeo has jshuffled him around the lineup. How can a young guy expect to find any consistency when he is not played in a consistent manner?
 

ChicagoBlues

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This board, and all fandom, has a tendency to diminish contributions that aren't points. It has a tendency to assume that when a player's name is not being called out by Panger and Kelly, they are playing badly, and vice versa. Worst of all, it has a tendency to exaggerate deficiencies. We cannot compare eye tests because every one is subjective. "He looked bad" "No he didn't". How did that further the discussion? Honestly 99% of the eye tests on this board are seriously flawed anyway. I include mine in that 99% by the way. I have to watch certain plays multiple times to pick up stuff I miss the first time, so that helps me have a little more faith in my eyes. But I completely miss good and bad plays all the time on first viewing, especially play away from the puck. Bringing stats into it is a way to normalize the discussion and base it in verifiable fact. "Stl fan in IA" said he stood around looking lost on defense. I can't provide evidence he didn't "look lost". But I can bring evidence that the team was not hurt by his play. If someone stood around looking lost all the time, you'd think the other team would score more than once. Its not definitive proof, but its persuasive.

I agree with you that he has effort and consistency issues. But I don't agree he has been terrible. He is a 21 year old, who has not played 40 games yet and is going through some struggles. He is being bounced around the line-up and given terrible line-mates. The coach is calling him out in the media on a few occasions. So I'd think some inconsistency is to be expected. He definitely has to man up and play better offensively and more consistently all around. But to my eye, his defensive game has been good. No big errors given a lot of usage there. I disagree that he should be compared relative to his skills. He has played better than guys who have gotten consistent minutes. I disagree with the way Yeo has jshuffled him around the lineup. How can a young guy expect to find any consistency when he is not played in a consistent manner?

I would argue that the lack of offensive production hurts the team.

Like Celtic Note posted, Barbashev was lackadaisical in his first season with the Wolves and parts of the second season as well. We are starting to experience what we both saw during his time with the Wolves.

Also, he hurts the team by not defending more vigorously. There may have been only one goal against while he's been on the ice (or whatever stat you provided), but his lazy play swings momentum and that hurts the team.

There are several ways in which he passively--and sometimes actively--hurts the team.
 

ChicagoBlues

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I appreciate the effort to bring in stats, but what do those stats tell us about his actual play other than he wasn’t on the ice for anything other than can be documented with stats? Stats really don’t tell you if he was lucky, if his play was subpar given his capabilities, his effort, his consistency, his line mates effort, etc. I would argue that he put more pressure on the defensive units than he should. Was he bad defensively? No. Was he good defensively? No. He simply was filling space all things considered.

I really like where you're going with this and it's something you've touched upon in an earlier post.

I'd be interested to see if there is a way to measure production relative to expectations.

For example, we expect 1st round draft picks to be highly productive and 7th rounders to not be so productive.

We expect fluid skaters with wicked shots to be highly productive compared to poor skaters with weak shots or some recombination of traits.

Expectations could be operationalized as perceived capabilities based on a measurement of skill level and how that translates into production.

Skill level could be operationalized as skating ability, shot accuracy, etc.......

You see where I'm going with this.
 
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Majorityof1

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I would argue that the lack of offensive production hurts the team.

Like Celtic Note posted, Barbashev was lackadaisical in his first season with the Wolves and parts of the second season as well. We are starting to experience what we both saw during his time with the Wolves.

Also, he hurts the team by not defending more vigorously. There may have been only one goal against while he's been on the ice (or whatever stat you provided), but his lazy play swings momentum and that hurts the team.

There are several ways in which he passively--and sometimes actively--hurts the team.

That passivity on defense, I believe, is systemic. We seem, as a team, to be allowing more shots in an effort to minimize the high danger chances. Under Hitch, we would always be one of the leaders in least shots against., but mistakes would lead to easy chances. Under Yeo, I am not seeing as many mistakes, but we are in the top half of the league in shots against. Maybe that is just coincidental, but to me, it seems the marching orders are to not get beat but keep your guy out of high danger areas. The stats, and eye-test, bear out that Barbashev is doing that. Maybe that is not what Yeo wants, as he obviously has a problem with Barby's play, but it is effective. His offensive play needs work, but he brings more than Paajarvi, who gets a minute more a night over every game. I didn't have the opportunity to watch him much in Chicago. I respect what you and Celtic saw there. Is it possible, however, that you are seeing what you expected to see from him? Other people are seeing it, so maybe I am the crazy one. But I think he has done enough to deserve to see more.

I really like where you're going with this and it's something you've touched upon in an earlier post.

I'd be interested to see if there is a way to measure production relative to expectations.

For example, we expect 1st round draft picks to be highly productive and 7th rounders to not be so productive.

We expect fluid skaters with wicked shots to be highly productive compared to poor skaters with weak shots or some recombination of traits.

Expectations could be operationalized as perceived capabilities based on a measurement of skill level and how that translates into production.

Skill level could be operationalized as skating ability, shot accuracy, etc.......

You see where I'm going with this.

Why? Player A is expected to bring a usefulness of +60 goals (not +/- but some hypothetical value over replacement)over the course of a season, but only actually performs at a level of +45. Now player B is only expected to be a +10 player, and is actually a +30. Player B killed the value over expectations being 3 times as useful as expected. Player A struggled being only 75% as effective as expected, yet was still the more effective player by +50%. If you reward player B by benching player A, you are only hurting your team by 15 goals.

If you are talking performance vs salary, I'd be on board, as that is important in a cap world. However, if you are talking two players who make the same amount, I'd rather have the one with untapped potential that is still out producing the low-skilled over-acheiver
 

EastonBlues22

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That passivity on defense, I believe, is systemic. We seem, as a team, to be allowing more shots in an effort to minimize the high danger chances. Under Hitch, we would always be one of the leaders in least shots against., but mistakes would lead to easy chances. Under Yeo, I am not seeing as many mistakes, but we are in the top half of the league in shots against. Maybe that is just coincidental, but to me, it seems the marching orders are to not get beat but keep your guy out of high danger areas. The stats, and eye-test, bear out that Barbashev is doing that. Maybe that is not what Yeo wants, as he obviously has a problem with Barby's play, but it is effective. His offensive play needs work, but he brings more than Paajarvi, who gets a minute more a night over every game. I didn't have the opportunity to watch him much in Chicago. I respect what you and Celtic saw there. Is it possible, however, that you are seeing what you expected to see from him? Other people are seeing it, so maybe I am the crazy one. But I think he has done enough to deserve to see more.
To some degree, yes. Once the other team has control of the puck in the offensive zone, there's a concerted effort to play from the middle of the ice outward and limit what you're giving the other team on the inside. I don't think Yeo is interested in giving them a free ride down the ice to get to that point, though. The Blues F1s are not generally burners, so they have to hang back a bit further to make sure that there isn't an exploitable gap between where they angle to apply pressure and the next line of defense if they are beat. With that in mind, the Blues seem to be attempting to applying their initial pressure between the circles and the red line when the other team moves down the ice, but its effectiveness has been hit and miss. The F1 rarely does much disrupting himself, and generally seems content just to get the other guy to move the puck. Compounding that, the supporting coverage has often been a bit late, leaving relatively easy outlets to escape, or the puck battles at that point have been a little lackluster. When the Blues do happen to win the puck, they have generally been poor at turning those opportunities into shots going back the other way (when they should theoretically have favorable circumstances for doing so).

Long story short, I think the SF:SA ratio would look a lot more favorable if the Blues picked up their defensive play in transition, and had more effective transition play themselves, even if they didn't change a thing about how they were defending in the defensive zone.
 

ChicagoBlues

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That passivity on defense, I believe, is systemic. We seem, as a team, to be allowing more shots in an effort to minimize the high danger chances. Under Hitch, we would always be one of the leaders in least shots against., but mistakes would lead to easy chances. Under Yeo, I am not seeing as many mistakes, but we are in the top half of the league in shots against. Maybe that is just coincidental, but to me, it seems the marching orders are to not get beat but keep your guy out of high danger areas. The stats, and eye-test, bear out that Barbashev is doing that. Maybe that is not what Yeo wants, as he obviously has a problem with Barby's play, but it is effective. His offensive play needs work, but he brings more than Paajarvi, who gets a minute more a night over every game. I didn't have the opportunity to watch him much in Chicago. I respect what you and Celtic saw there. Is it possible, however, that you are seeing what you expected to see from him? Other people are seeing it, so maybe I am the crazy one. But I think he has done enough to deserve to see more.



Why? Player A is expected to bring a usefulness of +60 goals (not +/- but some hypothetical value over replacement)over the course of a season, but only actually performs at a level of +45. Now player B is only expected to be a +10 player, and is actually a +30. Player B killed the value over expectations being 3 times as useful as expected. Player A struggled being only 75% as effective as expected, yet was still the more effective player by +50%. If you reward player B by benching player A, you are only hurting your team by 15 goals.

If you are talking performance vs salary, I'd be on board, as that is important in a cap world. However, if you are talking two players who make the same amount, I'd rather have the one with untapped potential that is still out producing the low-skilled over-acheiver

Why what?

In my model, each individual player is compared to their self, not to others.

What is the expectation of Player A relative to expectations placed upon Player A?

Think of an individual player as a group. The measurement occurs within the group, not across groups.

About seven or eight years ago, a former moderator of this board, Irish Blues, argued against my assertion that we (fans, management etc) demonstrate an "expectation bias" toward an individual player relative to the round in which they were drafted.

He argued that it doesn't matter after the fact (the draft) and I argued that the round in which a player was drafted does matter in terms of relative expectations of that player, with the acknowledgment that late-round draftees can enjoy a high degree of success (Datsyuk and Zetterberg come to mind).

I just think it would be cool if there was a mechanism by which to measure a player's production relative to their perceived expectations, whether those expectations are valid or not. After all, what expectations are actually realistic?

The entire NHLdom expected Patrik Stefan to be awesome because he was the #1 overall draft pick in his draft year.

Did we actually expect 7th-rounder, Henrik Zetterberg, to be a near ppg player?

No.

Measuring production/success/whatever relative to salary cap hit is pretty cool and is in line with the sentiment of my idea expressed above. Player A's production is being measured relative to his own salary, not Player B's. It is a within-group measurement.

To take that point further, the highly-paid Player A is highly paid because he has produced at a level to warrant and justify his high salary relative to the cap.

If he fails to produce at the higher cap hit (Ville Leino), then we can say that this player has not performed at a level commensurate to his cap hit.

But the player is measured against himself, his cap hit, his skating ability, his shot accuracy, his draft status, his vision, his passing ability etc etc.....

Fun discussion.
 

ChicagoBlues

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Here is an example:

Player C is only a decent skater, has a mediocre shot and has a hockey IQ of a gnat, but still produces.

I would be willing to wager that a fan would think more highly of Player C's production/success/whatever than Player A, who is all that and a bag of chips.

Also, why would we compare players with the same salary? Sometimes a player is paid a certain amount based on necessity and market demands and should not be compared to another, more highly-skilled player in terms of production. It could be just a necessity of business that these two players have the same salary and not much to do with past production.
 

joshyhockey26

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Looks like plenty of schools are apart of the “school day” game as the Wolves stadium looks pretty full. Barbashev back with his number 32, his rookie AHL number.
 

STL fan in MN

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Switching to the Rampage, Kostin not at their morning skate. Being listed as “day to day”.

So he escaped major injury but still sounds like he’s a little dinged up from that knee on knee hit. Hopefully he doesn’t miss much time.
 

MissouriMook

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So he escaped major injury but still sounds like he’s a little dinged up from that knee on knee hit. Hopefully he doesn’t miss much time.
They don't play until Friday, so I could see them holding him out of practice as a precaution and giving him full go at the morning skate if he is deemed ready.

At first, I thought he might be a candidate for a call-up after Barbashev and Blais were sent down. I haven't seen any of his play other than the video of his goal and the hit that knocked him out of the last game, but I am mildly concerned by the fact that he only has 5 shots in 6 games. It's nice that he's getting points, but his ticket to the NHL seems to be that of a volume shooter like Tarasenko and Ovi, so the fact that he isn't very active in their offensive attack just yet suggests that it might be some time before he can be expected to contribute at the NHL level.
 

MissouriMook

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Speaking of SOG, Barbashev has 3 shots in his first game back in Chicago, which is the same number he had in 6 games with the Blues this season. Wolves still losing 3-0, though.
 

joshyhockey26

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Speaking of SOG, Barbashev has 3 shots in his first game back in Chicago, which is the same number he had in 6 games with the Blues this season. Wolves still losing 3-0, though.
He ended up getting a goal the final min of the game. Wolves still lost 3-1, were 0-7 on the pp today.
 

joshyhockey26

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Few random AHL notes, Barbashev has his 2nd goal in two games now. Walman with the assist. Wolves are tied 2-2 with the Griffins. Rampage play the San Jose Barracuda tonight, Husso gets the start. Thompson centering with Kostin yet again. Blais/Schmaltz of course in the lineup as well.
 
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joshyhockey26

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Two point night for Barbashev and Walman. Despite the Wolves losing to their rivals the Griffins 5-3. The Rampage were more successful beating the Barracuda 3-1. Husso had 38 saves and was the first star of the game. He looked great tonight. For those worried about Kostin he didn’t show any signs of a knock bothering him from what I could tell. Both the Wolves and Rampage play tomorrow. So hopefully the prospects that didn’t play tonight, namely Adam Musil(sick) and Mackenzie MacEachern( healthy scratch) get to play. Jordan Binnington also has a chance to start for the AHL Bruins tomorrow night as well. He’s only played once so far.
 
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