Alexandre Daigle : Why was he hyped so much?

[seventieslord]

....except, yeah, it is. When you do it in your draft year.

Here, again, is the complete list of all the players since 1979 who've had a similar-to-Daigle adjusted points-per-game performance in their draft years, or better:

Name	League	Year	GP	Pts	PPG	league GPG	adj to 4.0
Crosby	Q	`04-05	62​	168​	2.709677​	3.19​	3.40​
Lemieux	Q	83-84	70​	282​	4.028571​	5.01​	3.22​
Bedard	W	`22-23	57​	143​	2.508772​	3.43​	2.93​
McDavid	O	`14-15	47​	120​	2.553191​	3.5​	2.92​
Kane	O	`06-07	58​	145​	2.5​	3.73​	2.68​
Lafreniere	Q	`19-20	52​	112​	2.153846​	3.46​	2.49​
Spezza	O	00-01	56​	116​	2.071429​	3.33​	2.49​
Lafontaine	Q	82-83	70​	234​	3.342857​	5.4​	2.48​
Drouin	Q	`12-13	49​	105​	2.142857​	3.49​	2.46​
Briere	Q	95-96	67​	163​	2.432836​	4.02​	2.42​
Gagner	O	`06-07	53​	118​	2.226415​	3.73​	2.39​
Daigle	Q	92-93	53​	137​	2.584906​	4.38​	2.36​
Lindros	O	90-91	57​	149​	2.614035​	4.47​	2.34​
Bouchard	Q	`01-02	69​	140​	2.028986​	3.49​	2.33​
Marner	O	`14-15	63​	126​	2​	3.5​	2.29​
Brendl	W	98-99	68​	134​	1.970588​	3.51​	2.25​
Rossi	O	`19-20	56​	120​	2.142857​	3.86​	2.22​
Tkachuk	O	`15-16	57​	107​	1.877193​	3.4​	2.21​

...that's it. 18 players in 44 drafts.

while Daigle's results don't scream "generational", they did hint at likely superstardom, if recent history (and everything that has happened in the 30 years since) is any indication.

Out of these 18:

- 4 generational players (all at the top)
- 4 HOF talents
- 3 star/superstar level players
- 6 run of the mill NHLers (including Daigle)
- 1 bust

Based on his numbers at the time, there was good reason to believe that he would be a star/superstar level player, as that is the median result for players with that draft year pedigree.

It's absurd to say that "forwards in the Q scoring 150+ points (at least in that era) isn't necessarily overly impressive" when it absolutely is, if age is taken into consideration.

 

[Stephen]

Worth mentioning is Alexandre Daigle actually came into the league and thrived in the early going.

October 1993, scored 14 points in 10 games, including 5 multi point games. The cooled down into November and crashed the rest of the way. So it wasn't like he was out of his depth and just didn't belong.

Alexandre Daigle 1994 Game Log | StatMuse

Alexandre Daigle's game log for the 1994 NHL regular season and playoffs

www.statmuse.com

I think if he had a better organization around him, more support and the ability to dig in and make the adjustments as the league responded to him his abilities could have been nurtured and harnessed better.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Daigle lead the Q in PPG, he was 3rd in scoring but that was because he spent time away during the world juniors.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I think if he had a better organization around him, more support and the ability to dig in and make the adjustments as the league responded to him his abilities could have been nurtured and harnessed better.

Probably worth a mention that the NHL got a lot harder/more competitive at the time he entered the League. Had he come in a decade earlier, he'd be stepping into an NHL that was 78.3 % Canadian (GP basis) and wide open, up and down. He maybe could have thrived and put up a soft 90-100 and people would say he had a pretty good career. The league Daigle entered was 64.4 % Canadian, and the players trained behind the Iron Curtain in the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia went from 0 % to 11.5 % (GP basis). Scoring went down and you really had to show you contribute in areas other than points, something Daigle never had to learn while in Juniors and never managed to learn in the NHL.

 

[Stephen]

To put this in perspective, in the late-80s Patrice Lefebvre had a 200 point season in the Q... and played three career NHL games.

As I noted in another thread, Daigle was outscored by Rene Corbet and Ian Laperierre in his draft year. Scouts didn't seem to think those guys were going to be super-studs (they weren't), so what was it exactly about Daigle that made them salivate? Speed, I guess...?

But, as others (incl. Daigle himself) have noted, there's a difference between having talent / skill and having desire / passion. The reality is, scouts and NHL braintrusts are dealing with high-school students in the draft. You just never know where their mental / psychological development will go over the next few years.

Guys like Rene Corbet and Ian Laperierre were putting up those numbers D+1 and D+2. That's a completely different ballgame when you get into the world of 19 and 20 year old Q guys who have offensive explosions.

Two interesting players from around that time that might be Alexandre Daigle comparables would be Daniel Briere in 1996, who was a scoring phenom who got no respect in his draft year, falling to the late 1st round. And the other would be Martin St Louis, who was just so overlooked he was a CJHL guy headed to college. How did that guy slip through the cracks?

 

[Stephen]

Probably worth a mention that the NHL got a lot harder/more competitive at the time he entered the League. Had he come in a decade earlier, he'd be stepping into an NHL that was 78.3 % Canadian (GP basis) and wide open, up and down. He maybe could have thrived and put up a soft 90-100 and people would say he had a pretty good career. The league Daigle entered was 64.4 % Canadian, and the players trained behind the Iron Curtain in the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia went from 0 % to 11.5 % (GP basis). Scoring went down and you really had to show you contribute in areas other than points, something Daigle never had to learn while in Juniors and never managed to learn in the NHL.

Yeah, I could definitely see a 1983 version of Daigle easing into the NHL, putting up numbers a la Sylvain Turgeon, maybe he figures it out, grows up to be a more serious player...

 

[Rorschach]

I mean he had 137 in 53 games, leading the Q in PPG.

How many guys have led their CHL league in PPG as a draft eligible player? Like 10 ever?

Yeah but they're Q points so you can cut it by like 30% and that's the OHL number. You can cut it in half and that's the WHL equivalent.

 

[The Panther]

Worth mentioning is Alexandre Daigle actually came into the league and thrived in the early going.

October 1993, scored 14 points in 10 games, including 5 multi point games. The cooled down into November and crashed the rest of the way. So it wasn't like he was out of his depth and just didn't belong.

Daigle's rookie season scoring:
First 6 games = 12 points (2.00 PPG)
Next 28 games = 19 points (0.68 PPG)
Final 50 games = 20 points (0.40 PPG)

Scoring surge early in rookie year, before the inevitable slow-down, sometimes happens. (See: Joe Sakic; Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, etc.)

Two interesting players from around that time that might be Alexandre Daigle comparables would be Daniel Briere in 1996, who was a scoring phenom who got no respect in his draft year, falling to the late 1st round. And the other would be Martin St Louis, who was just so overlooked he was a CJHL guy headed to college. How did that guy slip through the cracks?

Well obviously Briere and St. Louis were very short. At the onset of the size-fetish era, they were way under-rated by scouts. (For presumably the same reason, Theoren Fleury, who matched Joe Sakic in WHL scoring in 1987, was drafted 166th while Sakic was 15th -- also under-rated, of course, as it turned out!).

Yeah, I could definitely see a 1983 version of Daigle easing into the NHL, putting up numbers a la Sylvain Turgeon, maybe he figures it out, grows up to be a more serious player...

Yeah, I agree — I could see Daigle as a Sylvain Turgeon or (more recently) a Ryan-Nugent Hopkins level offensive player at the NHL level... if things had gone more favorably for him. But, again, part of the fault here lies with Daigle (if we can blame 18 year olds...).

Yeah but they're Q points so you can cut it by like 30% and that's the OHL number. You can cut it in half and that's the WHL equivalent.

That was exactly the point I was making earlier, yeah! Agree.

 

[seventieslord]

Theoren Fleury, who matched Joe Sakic in WHL scoring in 1987, was drafted 166th while Sakic was 15th -- also under-rated, of course, as it turned out!).

You're doing it again.... Fleury's actual draft year was 1986, during which he scored 1.5 PPG. Compare him apples-to-apples with Sakic (1.84 PPG in 1987), and he didn't have comparable upside.

Was Fleury underrated? Yes, of course. But ignoring size completely, he shouldn't have been seen as an equivalent prospect to Sakic (and he wasn't).

 

[seventieslord]

Yeah but they're Q points so you can cut it by like 30% and that's the OHL number. You can cut it in half and that's the WHL equivalent.

This is sarcasm, right? Sorry but it's hard to tell in here sometimes.

The top scorer and 10th place scorer in the QMJHL that season had 4-7% higher point totals than their WHL and OHL counterparts.

 

[MadLuke]

Yeah but they're Q points so you can cut it by like 30% and that's the OHL number. You can cut it in half and that's the WHL equivalent.

He would still lead his league in ppg... I imagine it is half just a joke.. ?

 

[Rorschach]

This is sarcasm, right? Sorry but it's hard to tell in here sometimes.

The top scorer and 10th place scorer in the QMJHL that season had 4-7% higher point totals than their WHL and OHL counterparts.

He would still league his league in ppg... I imagine it is half just a joke.. ?

I guess you had to be there. Leafs/Kings prospect Yanic Perrault in 90/91 QMJHL season scored 185 points in 67g. In 83/84, Mario Lemieux scored 282 points in 70 games.

As many people said above, 137 in 57 is not a special season in the Q and would translate into a middle six forward, not a franchise player. Not really a franchise player like Lindros who played a similar number of games as Daigle but in the OHL and scored 10 more points in a much tougher league. The WHL is the toughest league to score in because there is much less skill and much more toughness. OHL is no cakewalk as many of the best goaltending prospects go there to be tested but not be ruined like in the Q.

And guess what, he turned into a 50ish point player, which is a direct translation of a Q player scoring only 137 in this D year.

 

[seventieslord]

I guess you had to be there. Leafs/Kings prospect Yanic Perrault in 90/91 QMJHL season scored 185 points in 67g. In 83/84, Mario Lemieux scored 282 points in 70 games.

Seriously? That was his D+2 year! What exactly are you attempting to prove with this statistic?

 

[MadLuke]

I guess you had to be there. Leafs/Kings prospect Yanic Perrault in 90/91 QMJHL season scored 185 points in 67g. In 83/84, Mario Lemieux scored 282 points in 70 games.

Yes, and he would still lead his league in ppg.... ? NHL scoring was often much higher than Euro league or the AHL of some other era, if someone lead the nhl in points we do not simply point out that scoring among the leader was high in that league.

It is not about how absolute amount of points Daigle scored, it is all about how much he scored for that league.

Brad Richards scored 186 points in his big Q season, Crosby only 168......

Everyone understand that

1) Richards was a summer 1980 playing in 2000. while Crosby was a summer 1987 playing in 2005
2) 168 points in 2005 was doubling the 10th position in the Q, 186 points in 2000, it was 60% more

No one is asking why Brad Richards buzz was not bigger than Crosby (imagine Lecavelier topped 115.,,, and got first overall, why not Richards ?)..

This is the history board, player age in junior matter a lot (Tavares did not even lead the OHL during his historic 2007 season... he become a super hyped prospect because he was only 16 years old), it is all about how much you score for that league in that era are all well understood, I am not sure what is going on.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Draft eligible scoring in 1992-93, adjusted for league scoring

In 1992-93, the GPG in each league was

OHL: 4728 goals in 528 games for 8.95 goals/game
WHL: 4755 goals in 576 games for 8.26 goals/game
QMJHL: 3691 goals in 420 games 8.79 goals/game

Now, converting scoring between the three CHL leagues is not easy. Your best players miss 10% of the games with the WJCs. The disparity between the best teams/worst teams is really high. And powerplay opportunities were not equal between leagues. But a simple GPG/GPG at least gets us started.

If you normalize everything to 8.0 GPG. Names are a collection of the highest scoring draft-eligible players and first round forwards from the 1993 draft.

Rank	Player	League	Games Played	Points	PPG	Adjusted PPG
1	Alexandre Daigle	Q	53	137	2.58	2.35
2	Jason Arnott	O	46	98	2.13	1.91
3	Domenic Pittis	W	66	119	1.80	1.74
4	Chris Gratton	O	58	109	1.88	1.68
5	Todd Harvey	O	55	100	1.82	1.63
6	Jason Allison	O	66	118	1.79	1.60
7	Rob Niedermayer	W	55	77	1.40	1.36
8	Patrick Carignan	Q	65	95	1.46	1.33
9	Adam Deadmarsh	W	58	69	1.19	1.15
10	Eric Lecompte	Q	66	72	1.09	0.99
11	Denis Pederson	W	72	73	1.01	0.98
12	Todd Bertuzzi	O	60	58	0.97	0.87

Sure, not much in the way of star power. And somehow Bertuzzi was more dominant as a 28 year old forward in the DPE than an 18 year old in junior .

But Daigle's 2.35 adjusted PPG walks over any other draft-eligible CHL forward.

Taking a quick look, post-Lemieux only, the only players to lead the CHL in PPG as a draft-eligible player are

Daigle
Crosby
Kane
McDavid
Bedard

Lecavalier and Tavares and Lindros got close

 

[Rorschach]

Yes, and he would still lead his league in ppg.... ? NHL scoring was often much higher than Euro league or the AHL of some other era, if someone lead the nhl in points we do not simply point out that scoring among the leader was high in that league.

It is not about how absolute amount of points Daigle scored, it is all about how much he scored for that league.

Brad Richards scored 186 points in his big Q season, Crosby only 168......

Everyone understand that

1) Richards was a summer 1980 playing in 2000. while Crosby was a summer 1987 playing in 2005
2) 168 points in 2005 was doubling the 10th position in the Q, 186 points in 2000, it was 60% more

No one is asking why Brad Richards buzz was not bigger than Crosby (imagine Lecavelier topped 115.,,, and got first overall, why not Richards ?)..

This is the history board, player age in junior matter a lot (Tavares did not even lead the OHL during his historic 2007 season... he become a super hyped prospect because he was only 16 years old), it is all about how much you score for that league in that era are all well understood, I am not sure what is going on.

Right and the point is, for the Q, his scoring for his age didn’t warrant any sort of hype that he got. And it translated to that in the NHL. Back then, having a ton of points in the Q wasn’t that big of a deal due to the kind of league it was. And he didn’t bring the size and toughness that a guy like Lindros had. Nor was he known as a great leader.

 

[MadLuke]

Right and the point is, for the Q, his scoring for his age didn’t warrant any sort of hype that he got. And it translated to that in the NHL

Only Lemieux ever had an higher scoring relative to the league at this point at this age in CHL history in his draft year no ?, it was a bit higher than what Lindros did. And Lemieux was a bit of an older prospect, being October born I think.

This is based on what that leading the league in PPG at his age for a good built 6 foot forward did not warrant that sort of hype ? Do we any example of a prospect doing it and not having a similar hype ?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Only Lemieux ever had an higher scoring relative to the league at this point at this age in CHL history in his draft year no ?, it was a bit higher than what Lindros did. And Lemieux was a bit of an older prospect, being October born I think.

This is based on what that leading the league in PPG at his age for a good built 6 foot forward did not warrant that sort of hype ? Do we any example of a prospect doing it and not having a similar hype ?

20th highest point total, 6th highest PPG ever for a 17 year old in QMJHL.

17-Year Old QMJHL Players - Regular Season Stats

17-year old QMJHL player stats. QMJHL player statistics segmented by age group.

www.quanthockey.com

Need to adjust for league wide GPG, not sure how that looks.

Wonder how many people realize that LaFontaine and Lemieux were both '65 born 17 year olds in the QMJHL at the same time and LaFontaine outproduced Lemieux. Mario had a late birthday so his draft year was the following season after his age 18 season where he set all those crazy records.

I wondered if perhaps LaFontaine was on a much higher scoring team, but no, not really. Laval (Lemieux's team) scored 452 goals on the season (and finished higher in standings) while Verdun (LaFontaine's team) scored 486 goals (34 more). LaFontaine (1st in League) had 50 more points on the season than Lemieux (3rd in League), 20 more goals and 30 more assists, which more than covers the difference. LaFontaine was also the leading scorer in the playoffs and won the league championship.

It seems Lemieux made a huge step up between his aged 17 and aged 18 season. Perhaps being in his draft year provided a bit more motivation.

 

[Rorschach]

See you keep talking about developmental year. Normally D year is hugely important. But it was well known at that time (and I say that because I don't follow developmental aspects of the CHL anymore) that QMJHL scoring figures were a joke. Guys who didn't have NHL skating or NHL size (or both) could light up that league and get ridiculous numbers that didn't translate at all to NHL numbers.

So all the comparisons in the world of scoring, D year, they get thrown out of the window as a primary stat. It's almost as if point scoring in the Q had to be considered almost a lower league stat. Now if it was a complimentary stat like the player had huge size and toughness like Lindros or leadership like Crosby.

 

[Rorschach]

might he also have been very quickly solved by the league?

in his first two months RNH was scoring at over a pt/game and then he never returned to that level until last month

iirc yak also began his career on a scoring run he never recaptured

He probably learned the (sad) lesson that Kariya never learned...if you score too much and you're too un-defendable, the Scott Stevens' of the world emerge. In the 80s/90s Q, there is very little physicality and defense is subpar. Agents often kept the best goaltending prospect clients out of the Q to preserve their numbers and sanity. On the other hand in the NHL, while you could load up on points on the expansion teams and bottom feeders, the mid 90s had an insane number of HOF defensemen and elite HOF goaltenders while there were plenty of goons headhunting. Even a guy like Lindros eventually fell victim.

Patrick Kane really lucked out he played in this era.

 

[Stephen]

Daigle's rookie season scoring:
First 6 games = 12 points (2.00 PPG)
Next 28 games = 19 points (0.68 PPG)
Final 50 games = 20 points (0.40 PPG)

Scoring surge early in rookie year, before the inevitable slow-down, sometimes happens. (See: Joe Sakic; Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, etc.)

Well obviously Briere and St. Louis were very short. At the onset of the size-fetish era, they were way under-rated by scouts. (For presumably the same reason, Theoren Fleury, who matched Joe Sakic in WHL scoring in 1987, was drafted 166th while Sakic was 15th -- also under-rated, of course, as it turned out!).

Yeah, I agree — I could see Daigle as a Sylvain Turgeon or (more recently) a Ryan-Nugent Hopkins level offensive player at the NHL level... if things had gone more favorably for him. But, again, part of the fault here lies with Daigle (if we can blame 18 year olds...).

That was exactly the point I was making earlier, yeah! Agree.

I just remember why I thought of Sylvain Turgeon. The first leading scorer in Sens history and French Canadian in a Jofa.

 

[Crocodiligator]

Wasn’t there some kind of a scuffle that Daigle participated in during his last Q year? As far as I remember he hit (cross checked?) one of the opponents in the back, got a suspension and right after returning from it, he elbowed another guy in the back of the head. That was enough for the media machine to view him as an aggressive forward capable of fighting for his team, literally and figuratively. Iirc after those incidents some of the journalists thought that Alex would become not only a versatile scorer, but also a strong-willed character like Roenick. Unfortunately, Daigle himself didn't have the size and the drive (as it was said upthread many times before) to live up to these fictitious expectations.

 

[Staniowski]

I think the draft ranking of Daigle would be different in today's environment, with the plethora of draft rankings that we have now. I would expect Pronger would be #1 on many lists (a lot of teams were in love with Pronger), and Kariya on some. (I thought - before the draft - that Kariya was better than Daigle, and i wasnt alone).

 

[Gorskyontario]

I am a semi frequent listener of the cam & strick podcast, and since there has been a lot of speculation in this thread I thought some of you would be interested to hear the truth directly from Daigle.

On a note, some of their interviews are boring. Daigle is one of the better ones in my opinion.


Some notes without timestamps.

- Says he never lost the passion for the game, although at times he stopped enjoying himself

-Thinks Pronger and Kariya were better prospects, but Kariya was underrated due to playing in the NCAA. Thinks he was taken over Pronger due to him being more marketable in Ottawa.

- Says he had some troubles with stress and adapting to new environments. This started in Junior for him.

-Says Eric Lindros was a nice guy and good teammate, sat next to him in Philly.

- His biggest regret is not trying to turn into a better defensive player. Says he scored well playing with Brind'amour. Roger Neilson wanted to turn him into a defensive player the next year and he didn't want to. He wishes he had and thinks he would have had a better 2nd half of his career.

- His year with the rangers was the worst in his career, and the least enjoyable for him. Lead to him retiring and traveling for 2 years.

- Says he was into drinking and partying but he never did drugs. Had friends who had bad experiences with drugs growing up.

- He thinks he had a good mind for the game, and good speed but thought he hands weren't good enough at the NHL level.

-Says playing in Ottawa was hard due to him not being ready to play against other teams best defenders at 18. Says players on later expansion teams had it easier then Ottawa and Tampa did.

- Says the draft day quote is mostly due to him being really excited after going to the draft from a race car event and him barely speaking English.

- Best of all, when people call him a bust his go to reply is 'how many games did you play in the NHL'.


All in all very good interview, one of the better ones they've done.

 

[WarriorofTime]

He probably learned the (sad) lesson that Kariya never learned...if you score too much and you're too un-defendable, the Scott Stevens' of the world emerge. In the 80s/90s Q, there is very little physicality and defense is subpar. Agents often kept the best goaltending prospect clients out of the Q to preserve their numbers and sanity. On the other hand in the NHL, while you could load up on points on the expansion teams and bottom feeders, the mid 90s had an insane number of HOF defensemen and elite HOF goaltenders while there were plenty of goons headhunting. Even a guy like Lindros eventually fell victim.

Patrick Kane really lucked out he played in this era.

BS. What Kane had in spades was awareness and elusiveness, he rarely got his clock cleaned because of it. Knowing how to protect yourself, particularly as a smaller skilled player is a skill in and of itself, and it's something Kane never lacked. Lindros was a big guy that never had to learn it because he was used to overpowering small kids his whole life, Kane being a smaller guy likely had to learn it as a young age and knew exactly how to do it.

Kane is/was a fantastic talent that would have excelled in any era. Imagine had he not played in such a low scoring, tight checking era and instead played in and up and down 80s era. If Denis Savard could top out at 131 points, who knows what Kane might have done considering he was definitely superior (Blackhawks fan here, well familiar with both). Martin St. Louis (born 8 months after Paul Kariya) is a great example of a little guy that managed to weave his way passed all the goons at various levels of Hockey to have a pretty darn good career to put it mildly.