Alex Edler - Part II

[Callhee]

Looking only at points is a very shortsighted way of measuring a d-man.

You are seriously under-appreciating the stabilizing impact Tanev brings to our blue line.

You're seriously underrating the impact of Edler on the team's offense. I love Tanev, he is an absolute rock, and as you said a stabilizing presence, but I'm sick of people over-rating him to the point where they are willing to trade Edler but not Tanev. I'd rather move Tanev than Edler, but both are untouchable in my books.

Without Edler and maybe Hutton, our d-corps would provide no offensive presence. Tanev has shown offensive flashes, but that's it, he's 26 in a little over a week and his offensive play hasn't shown any signs of consistent improvement, he will likely never break 30 points, and never be the consistent PP threat. His shot has not improved at all.

You can say Edler consistently gets his shots blocked but as a poster above mentioned, he is not any more likely to have his shot blocked than the average PP d-man. Not to mention he is the only D-man on our team that has a threatening shot, even if he doesn't score a single goal off of it, the threat of a big shot changes how the Penalty kill plays us, his shot forces the high PKers to respect his shot, thus giving the Sedins more room to play with. With Tanev and Hamhuis, the PKers know the likely outcome is a pass and they can play tighter on the forwards.

 

[Hit the post]

You're seriously underrating the impact of Edler on the team's offense. I love Tanev, he is an absolute rock, but I'm sick of people over-rating him to the point where they are willing to trade Edler but not Tanev. I'd rather move Tanev than Edler, but both are untouchable in my books.

I don't see it as overrating in stating an opinion that Tanev is more valuable *to this team* than Edler. Think about it for a moment, Weber is often by default in our top four because of our lack of right side D. Not Shea Weber, but Yannick Weber.

 

[Callhee]

I don't see it as overrating in stating an opinion that Tanev is more valuable *to this team* than Edler. Think about it for a moment, Weber is often by default in our top four because of our lack of right side D. Not Shea Weber, but Yannick Weber.

Yeah, that's the same as saying we should trade Hank away instead of Vrbata, because our depth behind Hank (Bo, Sutter, McCann) is better compared to our RW depth. I'm not saying that Hank vs Vrbata is the same as Edler vs Tanev in value, just pointing out the fallacy in that logic.

 

[Icebreakers]

In 2011 we didnt' have a clear #1. But Hamhuis was probably our #1 if we had to pick the best dman.

Hamhuis and Bieksa were by far our most important defensive pairing in the cup run.

Edler and Ehrhoff were 1a/1b, it was pretty obvious that Hamhuis Bieksa was the second pairing.

 

[Hit the post]

Yeah, that's the same as saying we should trade Hank away instead of Vrbata, because our depth behind Hank (Bo, Sutter, McCann) is better compared to our RW depth. I'm not saying that Hank vs Vrbata is the same as Edler vs Tanev in value, just pointing out the fallacy in that logic.

Is it a fallacy though?

Tell me what pairings we would have if Tanev wasn't in the lineup vs no Edler in the lineup?

 

[Callhee]

Is it a fallacy though?

Tell me what pairings we would have if Tanev wasn't in the lineup vs no Edler in the lineup?

Edler-Biega
Hamhuis-Weber/Bart
Hutton-Sbisa

vs.

Hamhuis-Tanev
Hutton-Biega
Sbisa-Weber/Bart

Pretty much a wash to me.

If you keep Tanev, sure the first pairing of Hamhuis-Tanev is stronger compared to Edler-Biega, but then you have to deal with the disaster pairing of Sbisa-Weber/Bart. If you kept Edler, at least each pairing would have a babysitter. (Edler, Hamhuis, Hutton) I honestly don't think either lineup would be significantly better than the other, they're both garbage.

 

[Hit the post]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Callhee]

Hmm, I think you'll also have to take into account the PP lineups.

Keep Tanev, there is no guarantee that Tanev would even play on the PP if Edler was traded with Hutton + Weber + Hamhuis + Vrbata higher in WD's PP list.
Sedins - Burrows
Hutton-Tanev/Vrbata/Weber

McCann-Horvat-Baetschi/Higgins
Hamhuis-Vrbata/Tanev/Weber


Keep Edler
Sedins-Burrows
Edler-Vrbata

McCann-Horvat-Baertschi/Higgins
Hamhuis-Hutton

I greatly prefer the PP lineups in the 'Keep Edler' scenario.

 

[Icebreakers]

Tanev would and should never be on any first pp unit in the league.

 

[FOurteenS inCisOr]

Tanev would and should never be on any first pp unit in the league.

**waits for Kanucks25 to claim Tanev should be on the 1st PP, and Edler would be horrible without the Sedins**

 

[Addison Rae]

I think we over-rate Tanev a lot on this board. He's definitely a very good defensive dman, but Edler has that extra gear to his game. It just comes out once every 5 games or so against really good teams.

When Edler chooses to be physical, opposition is a lot more weary. Edler takes a lot more risks compared to Tanev, so it's easy to say Tanev is more stable. But that also explains why Tanev might never hit 25 points in his career.

Fact is, if you want offense from the back-end, these guys need to take risks and be out of position from time to time to capitalize on these risks. Ehrhoff is a prime example back in 2010-2011. He was like a 4th forward and had partial breakaways.

I don't agree with us overrating Tanev, heck I think he's become underrated on here. Alex Edler had the best year of his career last year, you can site years like 2011 because of points, but he did that with easy minutes, high offensive zone starts and a ton of time on the best PP in hockey. I'm not saying he wasn't good back then, he was, he was really good. Last year he proved to be excellent though, he formed a top 5 pairing in hockey (objectively) and transitioned into a fantastic #2 shutdown guy. He (and Tanev) player tough minutes and murdered them, Tanev and Edler were as valuable as the Sedins twins were last year.

Tanev is a top 3 shutdown guy in the league, behind only Hjlalmarsson (debatable) and Vlasic. Machinehead posted a brilliant article on how he's a modern day shutdown guy. I just don't think he gets the respect he deserves, really anywhere. He's a good #2 who can shutdown the games elite, drive possession and is excellent at zone exists.

They're both really good hockey players, if I had a gun to my head I'd pick Tanev, but it's ridiculously close. It's like asking which Sedin is better.

 

[Verviticus]

tanev is a top 30 guy in the league. that by definition makes him a 1

 

[Callhee]

tanev is a top 30 guy in the league. that by definition makes him a 1

Same can be said about Edler.

 

[Icebreakers]

The definition thing is dumb , that means there are 90 first line players in the league. nah.

 

[Verviticus]

that definition is not disputable

 

[Verviticus]

Same can be said about Edler.

I dunno if I'd say edler is in the top 30. close though if he isn't

 

[Nordic*]

Do you value Tanev higher than Edler??

 

[Luongos Knob]

The definition thing is dumb , that means there are 90 first line players in the league. nah.

what does this even mean?

 

[Nucker101]

that definition is not disputable

Sure, but if a team has the low end of every one of those, technically it's a complete team, but is it really a contender? You could have the 29th best starting goalie costing you games.

 

[Icebreakers]

what does this even mean?

You think there are 90 true first line players in the league? or 30 true starters? 60 true first pairing dman?

 

[Nucker101]

You think there are 90 true first line players in the league? or 30 true starters? 60 true first pairing dman?

And does this thinking only apply to the NHL? The 25th best QB in the NFL probably isn't s legit starter. Having a starting 5 in the NBA who are all top 30 at their position but not a single one being top 15 at his position would be a pretty bad/mediocre team.

If the goal is to build a championship team then the bar needs to be set higher.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

that definition is not disputable

I want to see your top 30 list.

 

[Verviticus]

Sure, but if a team has the low end of every one of those, technically it's a complete team, but is it really a contender? You could have the 29th best starting goalie costing you games.

yes this is correct. this is why #1, #2 etc are not very good terms. it doesnt help that random people muddle it up with their crazy definitions of what a #1 needs to be in Their Fantasy World

Do you value Tanev higher than Edler??

as an asset? yeah, probably. cheaper contract, younger

I want to see your top 30 list.

i almost certainly won't make one, so dont hold your breath

 

[Callhee]

yes this is correct. this is why #1, #2 etc are not very good terms. it doesnt help that random people muddle it up with their crazy definitions of what a #1 needs to be in Their Fantasy World



as an asset? yeah, probably. cheaper contract, younger



i almost certainly won't make one, so dont hold your breath

Hmm, I can see where you are coming from, Tanev's contract is better, but I am not sure I agree with your point about Tanev easily being in the Top 30 while Edler is only close.

Tanev is easily top 5 in the NHL if you are isolating defensive ability, but IMO, if evaluated as a total package (independent of contract); Edler is a better player. He provides the big shot, the offense, and the physicality that Tanev doesn't, which more than makes up for the difference in defensive ability. Bottom line though, I wouldn't want to part with either of them. They make up one of the best defensive pairings in the league, the Sedins and this pairing are single-handedly keeping us afloat.

 

[LiveeviL]

that definition is not disputable

That definition is disputed on a regular basis on the main board.

- A#1 D-man means being a top 30 D-man (parameters disputed)

- A#1 D-man means being elite (parameters disputed)