Prospect Info: Albany Devils and ECHL talk (2015-16 season) Part II

[Zippy316]

Triumph, you also forget Kelly, as noted above.

It should be interesting next year, I would imagine the Devils sign a couple college kids -- I wouldn't be surprised to see ATOs Geiger and Rooney in Albany next year.

The biggest thing with Albany is that they are going to lose tons of experience throughout the roster. The quality of prospects we have joining the team next year -- Quenneville, Lappin, Santini, Jacobs, Wood -- should all be pretty good by AHL standards. Improvements to guys like Kujawinski, Coleman, Pietila, Johnson, Mozik, and Thomson should also help the team out. Yet, the guys you have likely going out -- Kelly, Sislo, O'Neill, Gragnani, Helgeson, Boucher -- are high end AHL veterans. Even guys like McPherson and Burlon are quality AHL players. Wedgewood and Danis are both top AHL goalies and there's a good chance both aren't on the team next year.

Albany should, at the very least, be a lot more interesting to keep tabs on with how prospect-oriented they will be.

 

[JimEIV]

Triumph, you also forget Kelly, as noted above.

It should be interesting next year, I would imagine the Devils sign a couple college kids -- I wouldn't be surprised to see ATOs Geiger and Rooney in Albany next year.

The biggest thing with Albany is that they are going to lose tons of experience throughout the roster. The quality of prospects we have joining the team next year -- Quenneville, Lappin, Santini, Jacobs, Wood -- should all be pretty good by AHL standards. Improvements to guys like Kujawinski, Coleman, Pietila, Johnson, Mozik, and Thomson should also help the team out. Yet, the guys you have likely going out -- Kelly, Sislo, O'Neill, Gragnani, Helgeson, Boucher -- are high end AHL veterans. Even guys like McPherson and Burlon are quality AHL players. Wedgewood and Danis are both top AHL goalies and there's a good chance both aren't on the team next year.

Albany should, at the very least, be a lot more interesting to keep tabs on with how prospect-oriented they will be.

Isn't that the entire point?

And I think all of you are massively overating the "AHL Veteran". There is no question they help, but talent helps more and the "AHL Vet" is dime a dozen talent.

A young first year player, straight out of junior or college, with true NHL talent is an upgrade over the Kelly's and Gragnani's of the world.

A 20 year Severson straight out of Kelowna still would've been the best Defenseman in Albany...as was Merrill in his first short 12 games...As was Fayne in his short stint. A first year Henrique was the best player to play for our farm since Parise. That's because they have real NHL talent.

If guys like Santini and Jacobs arent better than a Helgeson and Burlon from day one that is not going to bode well for us.

I didn't see the "Vets" leading the way in the playoffs for Albany this year, but I did see the talent do just that.

http://www.thealbanydevils.com/individual-statistics/

The AHL vet is a vet because he sucks.

 

[Devils Dominion]

Helegeson was not impressive vs Toronto.
Slow, grenade handling, gets pinned in and gassed easily.

I don't see a NHL player here.

 

[Triumph]

Isn't that the entire point?

And I think all of you are massively overating the "AHL Veteran". There is no question they help, but talent helps more and the "AHL Vet" is dime a dozen talent.

A young first year player, straight out of junior or college, with true NHL talent is an upgrade over the Kelly's and Gragnani's of the world.

A 20 year Severson straight out of Kelowna still would've been the best Defenseman in Albany...as was Merrill in his first short 12 games...As was Fayne in his short stint. A first year Henrique was the best player to play for our farm since Parise. That's because they have real NHL talent.

If guys like Santini and Jacobs arent better than a Helgeson and Burlon from day one that is not going to bode well for us.

I didn't see the "Vets" leading the way in the playoffs for Albany this year, but I did see the talent do just that.

http://www.thealbanydevils.com/individual-statistics/

The AHL vet is a vet because he sucks.

It's good that you cite mostly defensemen here because if you cited forwards, where the statistics are a good approximation of their value.

Adam Henrique as an AHL rookie wasn't better than Mike Sislo this year. AHL veterans are generally a dime a dozen, but Mike Sislo was on pace to score almost 40 goals in an 80 game season. That is not a dime a dozen player. That's a star AHL forward. Losing him would hurt the Albany team considerably.

I don't expect Josh Jacobs to be better than one of these AHL veteran D. He hasn't shown at any level that he's considerably better than average for his league. Steve Santini I'm less sure about, I want to believe he's good but he also hasn't shown a ton. He really could be anything.

 

[Devils Dominion]

You need a mix of young top end talent and good ahl vets to win.

Kowalsky talked about that all season.

 

[NJDevs26]

Yeah having a few AHL vets are fine...too many AHL vets and you block the progress of the kids. Not enough AHL vets and you leave the kids in situations without a safety net if they're not ready for big situations at that level.

It's hard to really get a gauge on their roster for next year cause we don't know just how many of these kids are going to make the NHL team.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Yeah having a few AHL vets are fine...too many AHL vets and you block the progress of the kids. Not enough AHL vets and you leave the kids in situations without a safety net if they're not ready for big situations at that level.

It's hard to really get a gauge on their roster for next year cause we don't know just how many of these kids are going to make the NHL team.

Also we don't know who Shero will sign either.

He signed guys to play for the AHL team last offseason like JOB and Mozik. No reason he won't get new older replacements this year as well.

Finding a Sislo replacement isn't going to be that hard.

 

[Triumph]

Also we don't know who Shero will sign either.

He signed guys to play for the AHL team last offseason like JOB and Mozik. No reason he won't get new older replacements this year as well.

Finding a Sislo replacement isn't going to be that hard.

Yes, it is. People do not often score that much at that level. Sislo probably won't be a Sislo replacement either - he is 29 after all - but it is not easy to find players that score 38 goals per 80 games at the AHL level.

 

[JimEIV]

Lorito was responsible for Sislo's strong season. He was also responsible for Blandisi's strong start anyone that watched just a handful of Albany games this season could've figured that out in an instant.

And isn't interesting a player like Pietila, who at best projects to be a 4th line player, out produced O'Neill last year's AHL scoring champion, by nearly a 2 to 1 margin in the playoffs?

There is absolutely nothing special about career minor leaguers.

 

[NjDevsRR]

People make fun of Sislo on here but he is not a bad player whatsoever. He's an amazing AHL forward and would do just fine on any 4th line in the NHL.

 

[Triumph]

Lorito was responsible for Sislo's strong season. He was also responsible for Blandisi's strong start anyone that watched just a handful of Albany games this season could've figured that out in an instant.

And isn't interesting a player like Pietila, who at best projects to be a 4th line player, out produced O'Neill last year's AHL scoring champion, by nearly a 2 to 1 margin in the playoffs?

There is absolutely nothing special about career minor leaguers.

Sislo was doing well before Lorito got there. He did better with Lorito, but Lorito didn't finish up the year great and I see no reason to think Lorito is significantly better than anyone who played in Albany's top 6 forwards besides Thompson.

It is interesting when you use small sample sizes you can prove anything you want to, especially when you get the facts wrong.

Pietila 8 GP 3 G 3 A 6 P
O'Neill 9 GP 1 G 4 A 5 P

But yea, nearly 2 to 1 margin. The playoffs are not substantially different from the regular season.

Brian O'Neill should be a top scorer on his KHL team next year. He's a top AHL player. Some players who do very well in the AHL don't make it in the NHL, something which Devils fans will figure out in the next few years (again).

 

[JimEIV]

You're right, I should've said 3 to 1.

With a goal in 9 games to 3 in 8.

Graham Black out produced O'Neill this playoff season for gripes sake.

 

[Triumph]

You're right, I should've said 3 to 1.

With a goal in 9 games to 3 in 8.

Graham Black out produced O'Neill this playoff season for gripes sake.

Well, they must be better players. Albany'll go deeper in the playoffs without all that regular season scoring weighing them down.

 

[JimEIV]

Well, they must be better players. Albany'll go deeper in the playoffs without all that regular season scoring weighing them down.

Probably right. O'Neill, Thompson and O'Brien in a top 6 role with all the opportunity didn't really produce all that much different than other scrubs produced like Whitney, Kelly Zajac or Thompson in his fluke season last year.

Every year we have the Matt Anderson's, Joe Whitney,'s, Scott Timmons and they are largely irrelevant without real NHL talent.

 

[Triumph]

Probably right. O'Neill, Thompson and O'Brien in a top 6 role with all the opportunity didn't really produce all that much different than other scrubs produced like Whitney, Kelly Zajac or Thompson in his fluke season last year.

Every year we have the Matt Anderson's, Joe Whitney,'s, Scott Timmons and they are largely irrelevant without real NHL talent.

8 out of 10 of Albany's top scorers, including the top 4 - that's Lorito, Sislo, O'Brien, Thompson, O'Neill, Gragnani, Tropp, Scarlett - combined, I'll bet this octet has no more than 100 future NHL games in them. But sure, it's the prospects that did the heavy lifting this year for Albany. The other two are Blandisi and Boucher and they played a combined 61 games - they were quite good, but still, that was all they played. One first line forward. Can't win with just one of those.

Burlon, Mozik, Helgeson, Kelly, Hrabarenka, McPherson, Scarlett, Gragnani - Albany's top 8 defensemen. Maybe Mozik is something, but I'll bet this octet has no more than 200 future NHL games in them. Can't discount Helgeson's size and an NHL's team's willingness to play a bad player, either. But sure, it's the prospects that did the heavy lifting this year for Albany.

I'm done with this debate until I have it in 2 months when Albany's roster is more settled. It's a totally ludicrous position to take on this year's Albany team.

 

[JimEIV]

I'm done with this debate until I have it in 2 months when Albany's roster is more settled. It's a totally ludicrous position to take on this year's Albany team.

That is probably a wise decision.

But for some reason that hasn't stop you from making predictions of failure for the last two months.

 

[Bleedred]

People make fun of Sislo on here but he is not a bad player whatsoever. He's an amazing AHL forward and would do just fine on any 4th line in the NHL.

He's just a whatever player at the NHL level IMO. He's not gonna hurt you, but he's also not that good. He might be better than a lot of what we've rolled out on the 4th line in previous years.

And he did produce at a PPG equal to Jacob Josefson and outproduced some of our other 3rd and 4th liners this year. Though in a MUCH smaller sample size. Josefson also had a higher PPG only 17-20 games into last season than what he actually wound up finishing with, if I recall correctly.

I would like Sislo back for the AHL. Paul Thompson I'm meh on. His NHL stint of 2 or 3 games was embarrassing too. I'd take O'Neill and Sislo over that BUM and his one hit wonder 14-15 AHL season any day.

 

[Zippy316]

A young first year player, straight out of junior or college, with true NHL talent is an upgrade over the Kelly's and Gragnani's of the world.

The AHL vet is a vet because he sucks.

Generally, I would argue most prospects that turn pro that would be better than guys like Gragnani/Kelly would typically be on the NHL team sooner rather than later. It's not often you have an AHL player that produces at the rate of a Sislo or gives you reliable defense like Kelly, because at a young age, they should be getting some NHL time.

Devils are going to lose a solid portion of the team that has been there of two-three seasons. They could very well replace a good chunk of that via free agency, after all Gragnani, O'Brien, and O'Neill were all Shero additions. However, I would argue they would have less chance convincing those types of players to join the organization. Last year, they had the new management/coaching staff who was heading into the season with a pretty empty roster.

You're right, I should've said 3 to 1.

With a goal in 9 games to 3 in 8.

Graham Black out produced O'Neill this playoff season for gripes sake.

Pietila had 4 points in his first game back and had one -- maybe two -- after that.

 

[JimEIV]

Generally, I would argue most prospects that turn pro that would be better than guys like Gragnani/Kelly would typically be on the NHL team sooner rather than later. It's not often you have an AHL player that produces at the rate of a Sislo or gives you reliable defense like Kelly, because at a young age, they should be getting some NHL time.

Devils are going to lose a solid portion of the team that has been there of two-three seasons. They could very well replace a good chunk of that via free agency, after all Gragnani, O'Brien, and O'Neill were all Shero additions. However, I would argue they would have less chance convincing those types of players to join the organization. Last year, they had the new management/coaching staff who was heading into the season with a pretty empty roster.

The roster wasn't empty. It was a team that barely missed the playoffs last season with much of the roster returning and a big influx of youth.

Part of that influx was Lorito and Blandisi which was 2/3 of the top line for half of the season.

The team was big enough to ice two teams and a lot of the youth took a back seat early on. Empty roster? Not even remotely true. Guys like Pietila, Coleman, Kujawinski weren't regulars in the lineup to start the season.

Next years influx is potentially even bigger and more talented. I only say "potentially" because there is a chance some end up with the big club...

The biggest problem in my view in losing a Sislo and/or O'Neill is they are both RW's and our RW depth is bad.

In my view an Albany team of Quenneville, Lappin, Wood, Pietila, Blandisi, Coleman, Kujawinski, Lorito, Santini and Jacobs is more talent than they had this year. A lot more...and it's not only more talent, it's viable callups...did you see the hot mess that was O'Brien, O'Neill, Thompson and Gragnani this season when called up? Now compare that to the callups of Blandisi and Pietila and the first looks we saw from Santini and Wood.

 

[Zippy316]

The roster wasn't empty. It was a team that barely missed the playoffs last season with much of the roster returning and a big influx of youth.

Part of that influx was Lorito and Blandisi which was 2/3 of the top line for half of the season.

The team was big enough to ice two teams and a lot of the youth took a back seat early on. Empty roster? Not even remotely true. Guys like Pietila, Coleman, Kujawinski weren't regulars in the lineup to start the season.

Next years influx is potentially even bigger and more talented. I only say "potentially" because there is a chance some end up with the big club...

The biggest problem in my view in losing a Sislo and/or O'Neill is they are both RW's and our RW depth is bad.

In my view an Albany team of Quenneville, Lappin, Wood, Pietila, Blandisi, Coleman, Kujawinski, Lorito, Santini and Jacobs is more talent than they had this year. A lot more...and it's not only more talent, it's viable callups...did you see the hot mess that was O'Brien, O'Neill, Thompson and Gragnani this season when called up? Now compare that to the callups of Blandisi and Pietila and the first looks we saw from Santini and Wood.

I should have clarified. By empty roster, I meant the NHL team. It seems like guys like Gragnani and O'Brien were enticed to the team because they had an opportunity to play on the NHL team last year under the new regime and an NHL roster that was far from full.

 

[Tretyak 20]

Losing a few AHL veterans is only a problem if the goal is winning AHL championships. If the goal is developing future NHL players, then you can't have 8-10 AHL veterans on your team. Guys like Wood, Jacobs, Santini, Quenneville have to be placed in important roles if they're going to develop into NHL players.

Triumph - not sure why you call Santini a wild card. He's actually been incredibly steady at every level. The only legit gripe about him is the lack of offense.

 

[Triumph]

Losing a few AHL veterans is only a problem if the goal is winning AHL championships. If the goal is developing future NHL players, then you can't have 8-10 AHL veterans on your team. Guys like Wood, Jacobs, Santini, Quenneville have to be placed in important roles if they're going to develop into NHL players.

The development rule is why you can't have 8-10 AHL veterans on your team, but even so, this discussion has spun out of an original one which claims that the young players are what make AHL teams good or bad in their own league. This often isn't true, and is especially not true of the 2015-16 Albany Devils. I agree that Wood, Santini, and Quennevillle should be put in large roles next year and I agree that the NJ Devils will be a better team for that. I just don't think that Albany will be a better team for it. Other people disagree.

Triumph - not sure why you call Santini a wild card. He's actually been incredibly steady at every level. The only legit gripe about him is the lack of offense.

I don't see it, but again, it's hard to see it with such limited exposure. I was impressed with that game he played in the U18 WJCs in 2013, but that was 3 years ago at this point. BC's on TV sometimes and what I've seen doesn't scream success at the next level. It also doesn't scream not success at the next level either. Wish he had gotten to play in the WJCs in 2014-15, that would've given me more exposure.

 

[JimEIV]

I agree that Wood, Santini, and Quennevillle should be put in large roles next year and I agree that the NJ Devils will be a better team for that. I just don't think that Albany will be a better team for it.

We are arguing semantics then. And it would seem we absolutely agree.

Is your sole definition of "better" more than 46 wins?

That is not mine and I don't think that is even a reasonable conversation to have. They were a top 3 team in terms of wins, asking for or expecting more is unrealistic.

Better to me is a having an AHL affiliate that can supply the big club with viable players at any give time. Not the Thompson's or O'Brien's but the Boucher's and Blandisi's

Next year we could have 6 or 7 maybe more possible NHL players in Albany. Wedgewood, Santini, Quenneville, Wood, Lappin, Pietila, Coleman, Jacobs, Mozik..maybe even Warsofsky , Helgeson and Blandisi are in Albany.

That to me is "better" than Sislo, Gragnani, O"Neill, Thompson, O'Brien in primary roles and probably responsible for another 7 or 8 wins on the season.

 

[Triumph]

Is your sole definition of "better" more than 46 wins?

Yes. When someone talks about one team being better than another, I assume it's either A: they won more games or B: based on underlying numbers and removing 'luck', they should have won more games than the other team. Any other definition does not make sense.

 

[JimEIV]

Yes. When someone talks about one team being better than another, I assume it's either A: they won more games or B: based on underlying numbers and removing 'luck', they should have won more games than the other team. Any other definition does not make sense.

It's a Farm team.

The only definition of "good" is what they produce for the big club. Any other definition does not make sense