Aho vs. Bolduc

[crasherino]

Being that we have a full complement of forwards on this team and that group will be pretty much the same (maybe Engvall in/Bailey out), I'd be in favor of spending pretty much all UFA dollars on an upgrade from Mayfield and then have Aho and Bolduc fight it out for that last spot - much like we did this year. If Salo wants to elevate his game and get into the competition, great. But I'd rather have Klingberg, Dumba or Severson playing on the right side with one of Aho/Bolduc. I'm guessing the likelihood of getting one of those guys is in reverse order and probably not likely for any of them.
More likely - we re-sign Mayfield for slightly under $4m and run back largely the same team across the board. And hope that Wahlstrom magically turns into a 40 goal scorer.

 

[doublechili]

I'd be in favor of spending pretty much all UFA dollars on an upgrade from Mayfield

Maybe, but that would be hard to accomplish with the cap. The better way may be to swap one of our contracts for someone else's contract that fits a need. I'm not advocating this specifically as I'm not familiar enough with the other players, but just examples:

JGP for Girard
Bailey (plus?) for Tyson Barrie.

 

[danteipp]

Being that we have a full complement of forwards on this team and that group will be pretty much the same (maybe Engvall in/Bailey out), I'd be in favor of spending pretty much all UFA dollars on an upgrade from Mayfield and then have Aho and Bolduc fight it out for that last spot - much like we did this year. If Salo wants to elevate his game and get into the competition, great. But I'd rather have Klingberg, Dumba or Severson playing on the right side with one of Aho/Bolduc. I'm guessing the likelihood of getting one of those guys is in reverse order and probably not likely for any of them.
More likely - we re-sign Mayfield for slightly under $4m and run back largely the same team across the board. And hope that Wahlstrom magically turns into a 40 goal scorer.

This is my thinking as well. The Islanders have the chance to improve by simply generating more offense from the backline, if they just move on from Mayfield.

Across all strengths, Mayfield was AWFUL when paired with Pelech (-14 in GF vs. GA), Romanov (-11) and Aho (-5). Interestingly, his best partner was probably Bolduc in limited minutes (+4). But I am not willing to take the chance that Bolduc is the "cure-all" for Mayfield's deficiencies, especially on a more-expensive contract. Mayfield should be elevating younger players, not vice versa.

Just move on from Mayfield and, if there are no other reasonable avenues to improve the team, use the bulk of the available cap space to get more dynamic on defense and, ideally, younger too.

Mayfield seems to drag down every roster defenseman he plays with, which is pretty hard to do when Pelech is healthy and going well, so that should be the end for him. Mayfield is redundant in a lot of ways AND doesn't elevate any of his partners, the PP, etc.

A player like Burns is a must and we saw how important he was to Carolina. He dictated play often and gave the Isles fits.

I still think it is questionable how Carolina acquired Burns, as it seemed like he did not want to go to Carolina initially but (I believe) was thinking Dallas. If I recall correctly, then some people from Carolina called him, pitched him on the idea and he was willing to be traded. Sounds sketchy to me but I assume Carolina had permission to speak with him?

Meanwhile Dallas pivoted to that bum, Nils Lundkvist, giving up a first rounder and a mid-round pick. Of course Lundkvist has been awful, scratched periodically (32 giveaways to 6 takeaways will do that), and he can't get on the ice for Dallas.

It really feels like Grier got fleeced on the Burns trade, retaining 33% and getting scraps in return. But teams always seem happy to do favors for Carolina. I don't get it, but I guess everyone loves Waddell and are willing to help out, like NFL teams constantly helping out Howie Roseman and the Eagles.

 

[Riseonfire]

Aho is a good player.

Bolduc was a f***ing dumpster fire.

 

[doublechili]

Aho is a good player.

Bolduc was a f***ing dumpster fire.

Maybe, but big defensemen take time, and Bolduc played almost as many games this past season as he played the prior 2 seasons combined. So he also has a bit of catching up to do.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Aho is a good player.

Bolduc was a f***ing dumpster fire.

On another note, would you consider yourself somewhat of a pyromaniac?

 

[JPIsles18]

Aho isn't nearly good enough offensively to make up for his poor defensive play. He needs to go.

I don't understand this. Aho had a great season especially considering where he was last season, his contract, and his role. He's not great offensively, and he's not great defensively. He's a very solid 3rd pair dman who played very well for the most part last season.

He had a 2.74 GF/60 5v5 last season. Amongst Dmen that played at least 1000 minutes, that ranks 63rd. His GA/60 is at a 2.29/60. That ranks 51st. That equates to about 54.4% GF/60. Good for 54th in the league out of 148 eligible dmen (1000 minutes 5v5).

He most definitely was not the problem. He's an effective 3rd pair dman making peanuts.

Our biggest issue was that Romanov didn't really take much strides on the offensive side while struggling defensively. And Dobson took a step back in his overall play, especially defensively. This is the perfect example of the eye test being deceiving. Romanov was bad for most of the year, but got better as the season went on.

 

[PK Cronin]

I don't understand this. Aho had a great season especially considering where he was last season, his contract, and his role. He's not great offensively, and he's not great defensively. He's a very solid 3rd pair dman who played very well for the most part last season.

He had a 2.74 GF/60 5v5 last season. Amongst Dmen that played at least 1000 minutes, that ranks 63rd. His GA/60 is at a 2.29/60. That ranks 51st. That equates to about 54.4% GF/60. Good for 54th in the league out of 148 eligible dmen (1000 minutes 5v5).

He most definitely was not the problem. He's an effective 3rd pair dman making peanuts.

Our biggest issue was that Romanov didn't really take much strides on the offensive side while struggling defensively. And Dobson took a step back in his overall play, especially defensively. This is the perfect example of the eye test being deceiving. Romanov was bad for most of the year, but got better as the season went on.

Per 60 stats are not nearly as useful as you're making them out to be.

He's supposed to be an offensive defenseman but he finished fourth on the back end with just 23 points in 71 games. The only two defenseman he finished above were Romanov and Pelech by 1 and 2 points (Pelech played ten less games too), neither of whom are known for their offensive prowess. He had 2 power play points all season, despite having the third most PP time out of the defenseman (46+ minutes). He doesn't PK, totaling just 38 minutes all season.

Aho needs to provide maximum effort all of the time in the defensive end just to be neutral. He has to grab, hold, and lean with all his might and guys like Staal just laugh him off. That's not good. He cannot elevate his game because you can't go above the maximum effort he's already using. It leads to extended shifts in his own end and goals against that don't need to happen but are happening simply because he's too small/weak to do anything about it. It's one thing to make a mistake, it's something entirely different to be in the proper position and still get beat because you're physically unable to prevent what's happening. That happens far too often with Aho at times.

The larger point I was making is that the Islanders need more offense from the blue line and Aho doesn't provide enough of it. They need more. He's 27 years old and isn't likely to get much better. He's not particularly fast, skilled, or creative with the puck. He's more mobile and has better offensive instincts than some guys on the team but it isn't enough. I'd easily take Gostisbehere over Aho and there are quire a few guys like him floating around that could bolster the offense and there wouldn't be a significant difference defensively and/or they could be sheltered.

 

[doublechili]

The "problem" with Aho (and Bolduc except for the size part) is that he's a 3rd pair defenseman and he's not really a PP quarterback and he's not a banger. The Isles don't have a great PP QB in their top 4 (unless Dobson makes tremendous strides very quickly). So to use up a spot on the 3rd pair for Aho means they need to go out and get a RHD PP QB. Fine, but that guy is probably not going to be big, or solid defensively, and then he's paired with Aho.

 

[PK Cronin]

The "problem" with Aho (and Bolduc except for the size part) is that he's a 3rd pair defenseman and he's not really a PP quarterback and he's not a banger. The Isles don't have a great PP QB in their top 4 (unless Dobson makes tremendous strides very quickly). So to use up a spot on the 3rd pair for Aho means they need to go out and get a RHD PP QB. Fine, but that guy is probably not going to be big, or solid defensively, and then he's paired with Aho.

He doesn't fit with what this team needs.

 

[MJF]

Per 60 stats are not nearly as useful as you're making them out to be.

He's supposed to be an offensive defenseman but he finished fourth on the back end with just 23 points in 71 games. The only two defenseman he finished above were Romanov and Pelech by 1 and 2 points (Pelech played ten less games too), neither of whom are known for their offensive prowess. He had 2 power play points all season, despite having the third most PP time out of the defenseman (46+ minutes). He doesn't PK, totaling just 38 minutes all season.

Aho needs to provide maximum effort all of the time in the defensive end just to be neutral. He has to grab, hold, and lean with all his might and guys like Staal just laugh him off. That's not good. He cannot elevate his game because you can't go above the maximum effort he's already using. It leads to extended shifts in his own end and goals against that don't need to happen but are happening simply because he's too small/weak to do anything about it. It's one thing to make a mistake, it's something entirely different to be in the proper position and still get beat because you're physically unable to prevent what's happening. That happens far too often with Aho at times.

The larger point I was making is that the Islanders need more offense from the blue line and Aho doesn't provide enough of it. They need more. He's 27 years old and isn't likely to get much better. He's not particularly fast, skilled, or creative with the puck. He's more mobile and has better offensive instincts than some guys on the team but it isn't enough. I'd easily take Gostisbehere over Aho and there are quire a few guys like him floating around that could bolster the offense and there wouldn't be a significant difference defensively and/or they could be sheltered.

Romanov wasn't brought here to provide offense.

 

[Riseonfire]

On another note, would you consider yourself somewhat of a pyromaniac?

View attachment 709670

Ask the Ant population of Long Island. I've personally torched entire civilizations with hairspray and a lighter in my youth.

 

[JPIsles18]

Per 60 stats are not nearly as useful as you're making them out to be.

He's supposed to be an offensive defenseman but he finished fourth on the back end with just 23 points in 71 games. The only two defenseman he finished above were Romanov and Pelech by 1 and 2 points (Pelech played ten less games too), neither of whom are known for their offensive prowess. He had 2 power play points all season, despite having the third most PP time out of the defenseman (46+ minutes). He doesn't PK, totaling just 38 minutes all season.

Aho needs to provide maximum effort all of the time in the defensive end just to be neutral. He has to grab, hold, and lean with all his might and guys like Staal just laugh him off. That's not good. He cannot elevate his game because you can't go above the maximum effort he's already using. It leads to extended shifts in his own end and goals against that don't need to happen but are happening simply because he's too small/weak to do anything about it. It's one thing to make a mistake, it's something entirely different to be in the proper position and still get beat because you're physically unable to prevent what's happening. That happens far too often with Aho at times.

The larger point I was making is that the Islanders need more offense from the blue line and Aho doesn't provide enough of it. They need more. He's 27 years old and isn't likely to get much better. He's not particularly fast, skilled, or creative with the puck. He's more mobile and has better offensive instincts than some guys on the team but it isn't enough. I'd easily take Gostisbehere over Aho and there are quire a few guys like him floating around that could bolster the offense and there wouldn't be a significant difference defensively and/or they could be sheltered.

I do not see what you are seeing. I know you're a "no stats are useful" kind of guy. But I watched all the games this season, and I just do not see what you are seeing.

These types of discussions are always had amongst teams that are built poorly. Bottom line is that the bottom of the lineup guys should be pretty cheap and more or less neutral. IMO, given contract and role, Aho was excellent. However, the issues come into play when the guys higher up in the lineup do not actually produce like top 4 dmen.

Pulock/Pelech are an excellent shutdown pair but cannot be counted on for offense. Neither is a true top dman. Romanov and Dobson are both flawed dmen miscast in their roles. Romanov isn't as great defensively as some make him out to be, and Dobson is a work in progress at both sides of the rink. Romanov got better as the season wore on, but he was the wrong player to bring in for the way the defense corps was constructed. They needed a guy with some offensive upside. They got a guy with no offensive upside. Romanov was best suited for 3rd pair role at this point in his career. Aho is too. Dobson would've probably benefited from a sheltered role as well.

Instead, you have 2 LHD that are 3rd pair guys (Romanov/Aho). Romanov and Pelech do not provide the type of offense we need on the left side, but since both are fan favorites, the whipping boy is Aho. The guy makes the minimum and was above average as a 3rd pair dman. He's not a PP QB. He's just a serviceable 3rd pair dman. If we had more Ahos, Faschings, etc in our lineup we wouldn't be straddled with so many expensive 3rd and 4th liners on the team.

Context is important when evaluating a team. Aho was not a problem.

 

[PK Cronin]

I do not see what you are seeing. I know you're a "no stats are useful" kind of guy. But I watched all the games this season, and I just do not see what you are seeing.

I just gave you stats that are useful so that's just not true, and I also watch all the games the Isles play.

These types of discussions are always had amongst teams that are built poorly. Bottom line is that the bottom of the lineup guys should be pretty cheap and more or less neutral. IMO, given contract and role, Aho was excellent. However, the issues come into play when the guys higher up in the lineup do not actually produce like top 4 dmen.

Pulock/Pelech are an excellent shutdown pair but cannot be counted on for offense. Neither is a true top dman. Romanov and Dobson are both flawed dmen miscast in their roles. Romanov isn't as great defensively as some make him out to be, and Dobson is a work in progress at both sides of the rink. Romanov got better as the season wore on, but he was the wrong player to bring in for the way the defense corps was constructed. They needed a guy with some offensive upside. They got a guy with no offensive upside. Romanov was best suited for 3rd pair role at this point in his career. Aho is too. Dobson would've probably benefited from a sheltered role as well.

Instead, you have 2 LHD that are 3rd pair guys (Romanov/Aho). Romanov and Pelech do not provide the type of offense we need on the left side, but since both are fan favorites, the whipping boy is Aho. The guy makes the minimum and was above average as a 3rd pair dman. He's not a PP QB. He's just a serviceable 3rd pair dman. If we had more Ahos, Faschings, etc in our lineup we wouldn't be straddled with so many expensive 3rd and 4th liners on the team.

Context is important when evaluating a team. Aho was not a problem.

I don't disagree about bottom pairing guys, the Islanders need was a puck moving offensive defenseman who can QB the PP. Aho isn't that, and that's what he was billed as. I don't trust him during crucial times and there are other defenseman who aren't 27 years old that I'd prefer to be on the bottom pair because they do something well instead of being mediocre across the board.

You're giving him a pass because he's just a third pairing guy so there are low expectations. You also described why the Islanders needed more than that third pairing guy. That need was there before Aho was given the job, so clearly the expectation was that he could fill that need and he hasn't.

It's akin to you saying that Brad Boyes was miscast so that's not his fault and he's a fine third ine guy when he's not producing, even though he was brought in to be a top line guy (this is a gross exaggeration on my part, I know, but he was the first useless winger to pop into my head ). It's partly true because the GM deserves some blame (maybe even most), but it also doesn't absolve him as being part of the problem. He wasn't brought in to be a ho hum average bottom pairing defenseman.

 

[MJF]

Pulock/Pelech are an excellent shutdown pair but cannot be counted on for offense. Neither is a true top dman. Romanov and Dobson are both flawed dmen miscast in their roles. Romanov isn't as great defensively as some make him out to be, and Dobson is a work in progress at both sides of the rink. Romanov got better as the season wore on, but he was the wrong player to bring in for the way the defense corps was constructed. They needed a guy with some offensive upside. They got a guy with no offensive upside. Romanov was best suited for 3rd pair role at this point in his career. Aho is too. Dobson would've probably benefited from a sheltered role as well.

Instead, you have 2 LHD that are 3rd pair guys (Romanov/Aho). Roma

If Aho is making peanuts and that's your reason for keeping him, then another issue is that Pulock is overpaid. He is being paid an offensive defenseman's salary and doesn't provide any real offense. This puts a drag on the salary structure of our defense and forces us to keep a subpar, yes subpar despite the analytics, Aho on the team.

 

[JPIsles18]

I don't disagree about bottom pairing guys, the Islanders need was a puck moving offensive defenseman who can QB the PP. Aho isn't that, and that's what he was billed as. I don't trust him during crucial times and there are other defenseman who aren't 27 years old that I'd prefer to be on the bottom pair because they do something well instead of being mediocre across the board.

You're giving him a pass because he's just a third pairing guy so there are low expectations. You also described why the Islanders needed more than that third pairing guy. That need was there before Aho was given the job, so clearly the expectation was that he could fill that need and he hasn't.

That role was given to Salo, no? Salo was terrible and was removed quite quickly. Aho took advantage, and IMO was above average as a 3rd pair dman. My expectations were low because of how bad he was the previous season. IMO, he was excellent as a 3rd pair guy.

It's akin to you saying that Brad Boyes was miscast so that's not his fault and he's a fine third ine guy when he's not producing, even though he was brought in to be a top line guy (this is a gross exaggeration on my part, I know but he was the first useless winger to pop into my head ). It's partly true because the GM deserves some blame (maybe even most), but it also doesn't absolve him as being part of the problem. He wasn't brought in to be a ho hum average bottom pairing defenseman.

My point is he's only a problem because of roster construction. We know what we're getting from Pelech and Romanov on the left side, and it isn't offense. So the unfair expectation is that Aho provides that. He scored 23 points in 71 GP. Romanov scored 22 pts in 76 GP. Points aren't great at evaluating Dmen. But it's crazy what a pass Romanov gets, a black hole for anything offense (and not very good defensively for how terrible he is offensively). I'd much rather sell on Romanov as a 2nd pair dman than Aho as a 3rd pair guy.

If Aho is making peanuts and that's your reason for keeping him, then another issue is that Pulock is overpaid. He is being paid an offensive defenseman's salary and doesn't provide any real offense. This puts a drag on the salary structure of our defense and forces us to keep a subpar, yes subpar despite the analytics, Aho on the team.

Correct, but Pulock ain't going anywhere. He's got a full NTC, and is on a forever deal. Also, Pulock was a brand new player in the playoffs. He was fantastic.

 

[PK Cronin]

That role was given to Salo, no? Salo was terrible and was removed quite quickly. Aho took advantage, and IMO was above average as a 3rd pair dman. My expectations were low because of how bad he was the previous season. IMO, he was excellent as a 3rd pair guy.

My point is he's only a problem because of roster construction. We know what we're getting from Pelech and Romanov on the left side, and it isn't offense. So the unfair expectation is that Aho provides that. He scored 23 points in 71 GP. Romanov scored 22 pts in 76 GP. Points aren't great at evaluating Dmen. But it's crazy what a pass Romanov gets, a black hole for anything offense (and not very good defensively for how terrible he is offensively). I'd much rather sell on Romanov as a 2nd pair dman than Aho as a 3rd pair guy.


Correct, but Pulock ain't going anywhere. He's got a full NTC, and is on a forever deal. Also, Pulock was a brand new player in the playoffs. He was fantastic.

Salo being bad doesn't mean Aho was good. Both of them were brought in to try and do the same thing and Aho did better than Salo.

Again, the roster was already constructed when he was brought in and he was supposed to bring offense. He didn't. I strongly disagree about Romanov defensively too, he's considerably better than Aho. He can actually box someone out if he has to.

 

[doublechili]

If Aho is making peanuts and that's your reason for keeping him, then another issue is that Pulock is overpaid. He is being paid an offensive defenseman's salary and doesn't provide any real offense. This puts a drag on the salary structure of our defense and forces us to keep a subpar, yes subpar despite the analytics, Aho on the team.

IDK, if Pulock is overpaid it's not by much. If you look at the $7-9M guys then most of them are offensive D (Trouba and others excepted), but when you get down to the $5-6+ million range (Pulock is at $6.15M) there are a number of D who are similar to Pulock in production (McDonaugh, Parayko, Ekholm, Brodin, Dumba, Lindell, Slavin).

 

[MJF]

IDK, if Pulock is overpaid it's not by much. If you look at the $7-9M guys then most of them are offensive D (Trouba and others excepted), but when you get down to the $5-6+ million range (Pulock is at $6.15M) there are a number of D who are similar to Pulock in production (McDonaugh, Parayko, Ekholm, Brodin, Dumba, Lindell, Slavin).

That cap hit gets defensemen traded off of teams that are going nowhere.

 

[doublechili]

That cap hit gets defensemen traded off of teams that are going nowhere.

Sure, but is that the same point? Are they getting traded because they're overpaid (what you said about Pulock earlier), or because the team is going nowhere?

 

[MJF]

Sure, but is that the same point? Are they getting traded because they're overpaid (what you said about Pulock earlier), or because the team is going nowhere?

Delete.

 

[MJF]

Sure, but is that the same point? Are they getting traded because they're overpaid (what you said about Pulock earlier), or because the team is going nowhere?

Both. It usually goes hand in hand. Teams trade these players because they don’t have the luxury of carrying underperforming contracts. If the teams are going nowhere, its because guys like Ekholm and McDonagh aren’t getting it done. Which happens to be the case here with Ryan Pulock.

 

[doublechili]

Both. It usually goes hand in hand. Teams trade these players because they don’t have the luxury of carrying underperforming contracts. If the teams are going nowhere, its because guys like Ekholm and McDonagh aren’t getting it done. Which happens to be the case here with Ryan Pulock.

We'll just have to disagree. I thought Pulock was probably our best player against CAR, and if he was willing to be dealt I doubt there would be any problem finding a team to take his contract (NJ would gladly stick us with Dougie for Pulock, I'm sure!). And it seems like non-contending teams are more likely to carry an underperforming contract than a contending team that needs every bit of cap space to try to win (see EDM fans crying about Nurse after losing).

 

[MJF]

We'll just have to disagree. I thought Pulock was probably our best player against CAR, and if he was willing to be dealt I doubt there would be any problem finding a team to take his contract (NJ would gladly stick us with Dougie for Pulock, I'm sure!). And it seems like non-contending teams are more likely to carry an underperforming contract than a contending team that needs every bit of cap space to try to win (see EDM fans crying about Nurse after losing).

Do you want to bank on Pulock’s terrific playoff carrying over for another 82 games next year?

And non-contending teams are less likely to carry an underperforming contract as those are the teams looking to get way under the cap so they can make the roster adjustments they need to contend again and trim the dead money. Unless it’s a team trying to get to the cap floor.

The rest of your post is you going off on a tangent about things I never mentioned. I never said anything about whether we could find a taker for Pulock. And as for Nurse, there are bad contracts and then there are horrendous contracts. Nurse is the latter.

 

[MikeyMike01]

If Aho is making peanuts and that's your reason for keeping him, then another issue is that Pulock is overpaid. He is being paid an offensive defenseman's salary and doesn't provide any real offense. This puts a drag on the salary structure of our defense and forces us to keep a subpar, yes subpar despite the analytics, Aho on the team.

The top 4 only costs 18.4M

If you want to find the overpaid, look at the forwards