After the Big 4, who would round out the top 5 as the best players in the league?

[Montreal Shadow]

Matthews is 2nd to only McDavid in hardware amongst the names mentioned in this thread and his status in the top 5 is called into question.

The goal posts would continue to move regardless of what Matthews does.

Kucherov has a Hart, an Art Ross, a Lindsay, and two cups. How is Matthews ahead of him lmao?

 

[TheBeard]

Sorry, who was out and injured last year? Can’t really find who didn’t play 6-7 games in that series that mattered. Nuke, I guess, but I wouldn’t think the team would lose to a garbage team over that.

Landeskog?

 

[The Podium]

Kucherov has a Hart, an Art Ross, a Lindsay, and two cups. How is Matthews ahead of him lmao?

Hart, Lindsay, 2 Rockets

4 major awards to 3 and as much as a I believe a SC enshrines your legacy, it is still very much a team accomplishment. I understand he was a crucial player in their cup wins but the fact that he has 2 cup wins and no Conn Smythes proves that he had the team around him to help him win it all.

As a fan I’d trade Matthews career for Kucherovs any day of the week, simply because I’d love to be a fan of a cup winner, but that doesn’t negate the fact that Matthews has more hardware.

Even if you want to include kucherov, my point still stands and there is no other player in the league with more.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Landeskog?

True, but he didn’t play a game at all last year and Colorado still won the division.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Hart, Lindsay, 2 Rockets

4 major awards to 3 and as much as a I believe a SC enshrines your legacy, it is still very much a team accomplishment. I understand he was a crucial player in their cup wins but the fact that he has 2 cup wins and no Conn Smythes proves that he had the team around him to help him win it all.

As a fan I’d trade Matthews career for Kucherovs any day of the week, simply because I’d love to be a fan of a cup winner, but that doesn’t negate the fact that Matthews has more hardware.

Even if you want to include kucherov, my point still stands and there is no other player in the league with more.

Probably another Hart and Art Ross and maybe even a Lindsay for Kuch this year as well and Matthews with another Rocket. In general the Hart and Lindsay are the most prestigious awards. Can’t ignore the Cups either. As you say he was an integral part of both Cup wins and has a much better playoff resume.

 

[KingsHockey24]

1. McRegularSeason
2. Kuuchie
3. SmallerMak
4. Pasta
5. Kyle Clifford

 

[The Podium]

Probably another Hart and Art Ross and maybe even a Lindsay for Kuch this year as well and Matthews with another Rocket. In general the Hart and Lindsay are the most prestigious awards. Can’t ignore the Cups either. As you say he was an integral part of both Cup wins and has a much better playoff resume.

Hypothetical awards don’t count. There is a good chance Kucherov wins 0 awards this year.

Regardless, the poster I quoted essentially said if Matthews had more hardware he’d get the benefit of the doubt. He literally has more than anyone discussed in this thread other than McDavid.

My post wasn’t my opinion of Matthews vs Kucherov

 

[Montreal Shadow]

Hart, Lindsay, 2 Rockets

4 major awards to 3 and as much as a I believe a SC enshrines your legacy, it is still very much a team accomplishment. I understand he was a crucial player in their cup wins but the fact that he has 2 cup wins and no Conn Smythes proves that he had the team around him to help him win it all.

As a fan I’d trade Matthews career for Kucherovs any day of the week, simply because I’d love to be a fan of a cup winner, but that doesn’t negate the fact that Matthews has more hardware.

Even if you want to include kucherov, my point still stands and there is no other player in the league with more.

Of course we include cups. Since when do we not? It’s the most important hardware by far, especially when Kucherov was the leading scorer in two of those runs. Kucherov’s two cups are hilariously more valuable than Matthews’ rockets.

That aside, there is no clear separation between Matthews and Draisaitl when it comes to accomplishments but there would be if Matthews was as decorated as Ovechkin so using him as an argument is fallacious because at the time, Ovechkin had way more personal hardware than Matthews does now.

It’s not some kind of gotcha moment or double standard at play. Matthews simply hasn’t done enough to be considered clearly better than Draisaitl.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Hypothetical awards don’t count. There is a good chance Kucherov wins 0 awards this year.

Regardless, the poster I quoted essentially said if Matthews had more hardware he’d get the benefit of the doubt. He literally has more than anyone discussed in this thread other than McDavid.

My post wasn’t my opinion of Matthews vs Kucherov

I’ll repost after the season ends and Kucherov has these so-called hypothetical awards.

 

[The Podium]

Of course we incluse cups, since when do we not? It’s the most important hardware by far, especially when Kucherov was the leading scorer in two of those runs. Kucherov’s two cups are hilariously more valuable than Matthews’ rockets.

That aside, there is no clear separation between Matthews and Draisaitl when it comes to accomplishments but there would be if Matthews was as decorated as Ovechkin so using him as an argument is fallacious because at the time, Ovechkin had way more personal hardware than Matthews does now.

It’s not some kind of gotcha moment or double standard at play. Matthews simply hasn’t done enough to be considered clearly better than Draisaitl.

Cups count, I never said they didn’t. But not every player has the benefit of playing on a juggernaut.

Switch Kucherov on those teams with Matthews or Draisaitl or any of those upper echelon players and you likely still see 2 cups.

As much as Kucherov was crucial in those wins, he still had Vasilevski and Hedman which were every bit as crucial if not more.

I’ll repost after the season ends and Kucherov has these so-called hypothetical awards.

MacKinnon and McDavid are right there with him, and like it or not but 70 goals puts Matthews in the Hart conversation as well.

Not saying he won’t win either, but he obviously isn’t a shoe in at this point.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Cups count, I never said they didn’t. But not every player has the benefit of playing on a juggernaut.

Switch Kucherov on those teams with Matthews or Draisaitl or any of those upper echelon players and you likely still see 2 cups.

As much as Kucherov was crucial in those wins, he still had Vasilevski and Hedman which were every bit as crucial if not more.



MacKinnon and McDavid are right there with him, and like it or not but 70 goals puts Matthews in the Hart conversation as well.

Not saying he won’t win either, but he obviously isn’t a shoe in at this point.

It’s a three horse race for sure with Mack and McDavid and Kuch but after today’s game he’s a pretty big favourite. We will see.

 

[The Podium]

It’s a three horse race for sure with Mack and McDavid and Kuch but after today’s game he’s a pretty big favourite. We will see.

MacKinnon has 2 points with a period to play to Kucherovs 3 tonight, how does it change anything?

 

[Montreal Shadow]

Cups count, I never said they didn’t. But not every player has the benefit of playing on a juggernaut.

Switch Kucherov on those teams with Matthews or Draisaitl or any of those upper echelon players and you likely still see 2 cups.

No, you don't get two cups by replacing Kucherov with Matthews.

As much as Kucherov was crucial in those wins, he still had Vasilevski and Hedman which were every bit as crucial if not more.

Yes, and judging by Matthews' mediocre playoff performances, suggesting that he could replicate the insane things Kucherov did is comical.

Besides that, it's not like the years when no one won anything didn't happen. For instance, Draisaitl and Matthews won nothing last year but Draisaitl was clearly much better with his 128pts, so was MacK with his 111 and Kucherov with his 113. Matthews isn't a consensus top 4 player year-in and year-out which is what Kucherov, McDavid, and MacKinnon have been for 3 years. That's why he doesn't belong with the big 4. He's right there with Draisaitl and can be there one year or another but has only been top 4 once in the last two years and twice in the last 4 (and clearly 4th at best this year).

 

[WetcoastOrca]

MacKinnon has 2 points with a period to play to Kucherovs 3 tonight, how does it change anything?

It doesn’t.
He was the favourite before and with one less game to play he’s still the favourite.
I do agree that it’s not wrapped up yet though. Still a 3 horse race. I don’t think Matthews can win though even with his great year. Could be a finalist though.

 

[The Podium]

No, you don't get two cups by replacing Kucherov with Matthews.

Yes, and judging by Matthews' mediocre playoff performances, suggesting that he could replicate the insane things Kucherov did is comical.

Besides that, it's not like the years when no one won anything didn't happen. For instance, Draisaitl and Matthews won nothing last year but Draisaitl was clearly much better with his 128pts, so was MacK with his 111 and Kucherov with his 113. Matthews isn't a consensus top 4 player year-in and year-out which is what Kucherov, McDavid, and MacKinnon have been for 3 years. That's why he doesn't belong with the big 4. He's right there with Draisaitl and can be there one year or another but has only been top 4 once in the last two years and twice in the last 4 (and clearly 4th at best this year).

Dude, I’m not even comparing them right now.

I’m arguing your poor attempt at a chirp on Matthews career. “If Matthews had more hardware he’d be rated better”

He has more individual hardware than anyone not named McDavid

“Ya but that doesn’t count”

Also your most recent post says “he doesn’t belong with the top 4, that’s why he’s 4th best” …..actually you wrote “clearly 4th”

Which means you actually agree with me

It doesn’t.
He was the favourite before and with one less game to play he’s still the favourite.
I do agree that it’s not wrapped up yet though. Still a 3 horse race. I don’t think Matthews can win though even with his great year. Could be a finalist though.

You literally said “but after tonight’s game” implying that tonight’s game changed something.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Dude, I’m not even comparing them right now.

I’m arguing your poor attempt at a chirp on Matthews career. “If Matthews had more hardware he’d be rated better”

He has more individual hardware than anyone not named McDavid

“Ya but that doesn’t count”

Also your most recent post says “he doesn’t belong with the top 4, that’s why he’s 4th best” actually you wrote “clearly 4th”



You literally said “but after tonight’s game” implying that tonight’s game changed something.

It did. One less game to go.
Mack had 7 games. Now he has 6.
That’s 14% less games to catch him and that’s assuming he doesn’t rest up a bit before the playoffs. He’s running out of run way.

 

[nbwingsfan]

He has the exact same amount of cups as those two do

So what exactly is the difference? Matthews isn’t getting it done?

Well, your argument shouldn’t be that pasta or drai are. Those cup droughts are lasting those guys entire career too

Who cares if you don’t win?



I said anything they’ve done. They haven’t won in the playoffs either

Quit this gaslighting bullshit like Boston and Edmonton have been a parade of cup wins. They’ve both been failures, zero cups. BIG FAT ZERO

Come back when those guys have won something Matthews hasn’t won

So in your opinion a guy who puts up say 1 assist in 6 playoff games was just as good as a guy who lets say put up 40pts in 21 playoff games but lost in the the SCF?


What a terrible argument

 

[The Podium]

It did. One less game to go.

That’s fair

 

[Montreal Shadow]

Dude, I’m not even comparing them right now.

I’m arguing your poor attempt at a chirp on Matthews career. “If Matthews had more hardware he’d be rated better”

No, that's not my argument. My argument is that if Matthews had Ovechkin-level of hardware, he'd clearly be rated higher.

He has more individual hardware than anyone not named McDavid

“Ya but that doesn’t count”

Oh, they do count. The problem is, the years where he didn't win any hardware still happened. Draisaitl and MacKinnon blew him out of the water last year. Are we supposed to pretend this didn't happen because none of them have the hardware to show for it? Because last year elevates their stocks but drops Matthews'.

Also your most recent post says “he doesn’t belong with the top 4, that’s why he’s 4th best” actually you wrote “clearly 4th”

Yes, this year he's clearly the 4th best but last year he wasn't even top 5. Draisaitl, however, was top 3. That's why there is no big 4 but a big 3 consisting of McDavid, Kucherov, and Mackinnon. Matthews and Draisaitl battle for 4th place. Matthews isn't clearly above him.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

That’s fair

To be fair I would never count out either McDavid or Mack. They could put up 5 points next game.
One of the most exciting races in a long time.
Edit: And just like that Mack scores for his 3rd point. Lol.

 

[nbwingsfan]

These threads never end well. Outside the top 3 its basically anyones team highest point player and everyone else sucks.

Leafs will always get the short end of the stick because they have so many rival teams who hate anything leafs.

Its very very very easily Mathews #4. There is literally no way it isnt. Makar is not ahead of him but is at #5.

If you cant say a guy with 63 goals and on pace for 70 isnt in the top 4. You have serious bias issues. Serious. Be a fan of of the game, not a hater.

Outside of his 63 goals, what puts him ahead of Pasta who’s out scoring him playing on a line with Heinen and Zacha, out scoring his own teammates by 40(!!)

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Outside of his 63 goals, what puts him ahead of Pasta who’s out scoring him playing on a line with Heinen and Zacha, out scoring his own teammates by 40(!!)

I mean what Matthews is doing in is pretty extraordinary. At this point it’s pretty hard to ignore him running away with another Rocket while being top 10 in points and playing in the more important position.
He’s up by 11 goals in the Rocket race and closing in on 70 goals. It’s been a while since a Rocket winner lapped the field like this.
He’s top 4 despite a down year lad year imo.

 

[JukofYork]

Outside of his 63 goals, what puts him ahead of Pasta who’s out scoring him playing on a line with Heinen and Zacha, out scoring his own teammates by 40(!!)

Um his 63 goals alone does and he is still scoring goals playing with Domi and Bertuzzi lol

 

[The Podium]

Outside of his 63 goals, what puts him ahead of Pasta who’s out scoring him playing on a line with Heinen and Zacha, out scoring his own teammates by 40(!!)

Take away the most impressive thing about him, then what?

 

[Spirits]

Glad you realized the pacific being a shit division

Everyone knows this. Now you do too.