News Article: Adam Gretz (NBC Sports) - Sabres' Rebuild Is Still Going Nowhere

[Chainshot]

I think the idea that reinforcements are coming between now and 20/21 is easier to sell (likely selling to the players too in their end of the year interviews) with the Amerks playing well this year. Wheel-spinning is one thing but there is an endgame to this. Whether or not it works is another question.

If that's the case, I think Jack needs to focus more on leading this team today, than worrying about who may or may not be on it two years from now. That's not his job. It wasn't ROR's job either.

Again, it ignores the deficit in Botterill's abilities to identify, acquire and insert quality, even passable NHLers into this lineup or his ability to be adroit enough to see the mistake of his coaching hire and make a change in the here and now. One can't say the nebulous reinforcements are 2 more seasons away and at the same time ignore the immediate. Players aren't going to sit around waiting for someday. That's foolish.

 

[Dreakon13]

Again, it ignores the deficit in Botterill's abilities to identify, acquire and insert quality, even passable NHLers into this lineup or his ability to be adroit enough to see the mistake of his coaching hire and make a change in the here and now. One can't say the nebulous reinforcements are 2 more seasons away and at the same time ignore the immediate. Players aren't going to sit around waiting for someday. That's foolish.

To be fair, I wouldn't say he "ignored the immediate". He didn't do a good job but he didn't do nothing. The longer term players in Skinner, Montour, Mittelstadt are or will be solid adds. The shorter term players (ie. the placeholders) in Sobotka, Pominville, Sheary, Hunwick, etc... were intended to be hit or miss anyways. Most short term acquisitions are short term for just that reason. Thompson isn't doing well but has potential at least.

If I'm Botteril, I'm selling people on 20/21 ... not "someday". And while it's unfortunate that group is more misses than hits (and fans are understandably skeptical because of it) that those misses are all very manageable in term.

 

[Chainshot]

To be fair, I wouldn't say he "ignored the immediate". He didn't do a good job but he didn't do nothing. The longer term players in Skinner, Montour, Mittelstadt are or will be solid adds. The shorter term players (ie. the placeholders) in Sobotka, Pominville, Sheary, Hunwick, etc... were intended to be hit or miss anyways. Most short term acquisitions are short term for just that reason. Thompson isn't doing well but has potential at least.

If I'm Botteril, I'm selling people on 20/21 ... not "someday". And while it's unfortunate that group is more misses than hits (and fans are understandably skeptical because of it) that those misses are all very manageable in term.

Curious why people should accept the idea that the intention of acquiring Pominville, Sheary, Hunwick, or Sobotka (or Nolan, Pouliot, Bad Beaulieu, Josefson, et. al) was to be "hit or miss"? He's trying to build a roster, this isn't dice. Plenty of teams make small roster moves to improve themselves without it being such a complete disaster time after time.

And since his track record of filling out a roster or placing a head coach are both checkered with failure, why should anyone believe that things are going to remarkably get better in '20-21? He's been bad at his job, as you point out, why should anyone give him the benefit of ever more time to be bad at it, especially the people who work for him?

 

[sabrebuild]

To be fair, I wouldn't say he "ignored the immediate". He didn't do a good job but he didn't do nothing. The longer term players in Skinner, Montour, Mittelstadt are or will be solid adds. The shorter term players (ie. the placeholders) in Sobotka, Pominville, Sheary, Hunwick, etc... were intended to be hit or miss anyways. Most short term acquisitions are short term for just that reason. Thompson isn't doing well but has potential at least.

If I'm Botteril, I'm selling people on 20/21 ... not "someday". And while it's unfortunate that group is more misses than hits (and fans are understandably skeptical because of it) that those misses are all very manageable in term.

Botts should be selling that if he wants to keep his job.

Chain’s point is that it would be pretty stupid to believe in him.

 

[kirby11]

To be fair, I wouldn't say he "ignored the immediate". He didn't do a good job but he didn't do nothing. The longer term players in Skinner, Montour, Mittelstadt are or will be solid adds. The shorter term players (ie. the placeholders) in Sobotka, Pominville, Sheary, Hunwick, etc... were intended to be hit or miss anyways. Most short term acquisitions are short term for just that reason. Thompson isn't doing well but has potential at least.

If I'm Botteril, I'm selling people on 20/21 ... not "someday". And while it's unfortunate that group is more misses than hits (and fans are understandably skeptical because of it) that those misses are all very manageable in term.

So in this timeline he's probably gonna punt again next year and we'll MAYBE try to compete for a playoff spot in year 6 of Eichel (with Botts burning at least 3, maybe 4 years off his career for nothing) and in the final year of Dahlin's ELC?

That plan would be a fireable offense, IMO.

 

[Icicle]

He may have even made moves that improved the win-loss record last season which mitigates RoR's exit commentary. Better coach, better roster moves, different outcome.

So absolutely no details other than higher the coach other than the one 90% of this message board wanted? Got it. Oh, did you all forget that ROR played last season when we were even worse?

 

[Icicle]

Still waiting to see these trades Botterill would've made during the off-season he was hired, or UFA signing he would've made, that would've resulted in a different outcome?

 

[joshjull]

Curious why people should accept the idea that the intention of acquiring Pominville, Sheary, Hunwick, or Sobotka (or Nolan, Pouliot, Bad Beaulieu, Josefson, et. al) was to be "hit or miss"? He's trying to build a roster, this isn't dice. Plenty of teams make small roster moves to improve themselves without it being such a complete disaster time after time.

And since his track record of filling out a roster or placing a head coach are both checkered with failure, why should anyone believe that things are going to remarkably get better in '20-21? He's been bad at his job, as you point out, why should anyone give him the benefit of ever more time to be bad at it, especially the people who work for him?

I get what you’re saying but I‘ve felt since last season he’s focus has been to slowly rebuild from within. Grow prospects as a group and have them come up to replace the vets as the leave they roster. I like what he’s doing on that front

That said I don’t like Housley and feel we could have gotten more out the group we currently have. That’s also on Botts. I really hope he sees the issues we do because I can’t take another year of him as head coach. He’s beaten out of me what chance there was of renewing my season tickets. Not sure even a new coach could get me to change my mind. I’ve paid a lot for several years to watch very crappy hockey live. I can still do it for cheaper with Stubhub. Assuming I want to attend

 

[Aladyyn]

Just because it's a transition year doesn't mean the team has to be so hopeless every night. Look at how 2015-16 Leafs did with a roster that lacked talent.

 

[Chainshot]

I get what you’re saying but I‘ve felt since last season he’s focus has been to slowly rebuild from within. Grow prospects as a group and have them come up to replace the vets as the leave they roster. I like what he’s doing on that front

That said I don’t like Housley and feel we could have gotten more out the group we currently have. That’s also on Botts. I really hope he sees the issues we do because I can’t take another year of him as head coach. He’s beaten out of me what chance there was of renewing my season tickets. Not sure even a new coach could get me to change my mind. I’ve paid a lot for several years to watch very crappy hockey live. I can still do it for cheaper with Stubhub. Assuming I want to attend

I will give him attention to detail for the minor league club as a plus. Seeing them have a quality team in Rochester is refreshing.

That said, the graduations aren't all going to be linear and so far we haven't seen the coach able to integrate anyone coming up into any sort of role which doesn't give confidence that growth from within is actually going to happen. Again, Phil has to go.

They've beaten my ability to watch out of me. I didn't think it was possible, but they're killing my love for watching hockey. I can't imagine having to pay for the on-ice sputum they keep putting out there. I'm impressed it's taken you this long to get to the breaking point.

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

So absolutely no details other than higher the coach other than the one 90% of this message board wanted? Got it. Oh, did you all forget that ROR played last season when we were even worse?

And? So did Jack Eichel. And a lot of other players. How many times does that need to be said before you forget again?

You should just give it up but instead you'll probably be the last one to die on the hill of "giving away ROR was addition by subtraction."

 

[joshjull]

I will give him attention to detail for the minor league club as a plus. Seeing them have a quality team in Rochester is refreshing.

That said, the graduations aren't all going to be linear and so far we haven't seen the coach able to integrate anyone coming up into any sort of role which doesn't give confidence that growth from within is actually going to happen. Again, Phil has to go.

They've beaten my ability to watch out of me. I didn't think it was possible, but they're killing my love for watching hockey. I can't imagine having to pay for the on-ice sputum they keep putting out there. I'm impressed it's taken you this long to get to the breaking point.

I kept clinging to the “next year will make the previous years worth it” mantra. That after witnessing the shitshow for years I can now enjoy the rise. I don’t even care about watching the rise (whenever that happens) at this point because I’m so beaten down.

About the only chance I keep them is the full court press from my family right now. Shockingly that includes my wife. Who you couldn’t pay to attend a game and has complained about the cost. But she knows the kids love going. The damn kids have the best advocate they could have hired.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Any GM that was going to come in and re-stock the prospect pool and Rochester, building up depth from within for the long-term health of the organization, would do so with a premium on futures, and acquiring current NHL depth as cheaply as possible. That means barely passable vets while keeping as many prime future assets to build up for the future as possible (as effectively as can be given the risk of draft picks). That obviously means not being very good in the immediate future, in the attempt of being consistently competitive afterward. The one recent move involving a prime future asset was to acquire a top four RHD...not a placeholder. So we already know Botterill is shifting toward long-term roster building.

All these arguments I see about wasting Eichel (he's only 22 FCS) or drafting Dahlin changed everything (like he's an instant all-star) are silly. It's going to be a whole extra year or so before (some) prospects fill out roster holes, and futures aren't so desperately needed to build back depth. Then Botterill can operate more normally and without such a heavy bias toward futures.

Like has been said, let's judge when his plan comes together. This continuous crank fest around here is really boring, a bunch of overly negative sarcasm about imagined trades that Botterill hasn't even been connected to outside of Twitter speculation. If Botterill fails to build the roster via well-timed call-ups or a Montour-style trade for a middle-six C, or sticks with Housley and clearly articulates that it's actually him supporting Housley and not an owner-based decision, then I will help light the torches. Before that time, it's just a lot of wasted negative energy.

 

[TehDoak]

Any GM that was going to come in and re-stock the prospect pool and Rochester, building up depth from within for the long-term health of the organization, would do so with a premium on futures and acquiring current NHL depth as cheaply as possible. That means barely passable vets while keeping as many prime future assets to build up for the future as possible (as effectively as can be given the risk of draft picks). That obviously means not being very good in the immediate future, in the attempt of being consistently competitive afterward. The one recent move involving a prime future asset was to acquire a top four RHD...not a placeholder. So we already know Botterill is shifting toward long-term roster building.

All these arguments I see about wasting Eichel (he's only 22 FCS) or drafting Dahlin changed everything (like he's an instant all-star) are silly. It's going to be a whole extra year or so before (some) prospects fill out roster holes, and futures aren't so desperately needed to build back depth. Then Botterill can operate more normally and without such a heavy bias toward futures.

Like has been said, let's judge when his plan comes together. This continuous crank fest around here is really boring, a bunch of overly negative sarcasm about imagined trades that Botterill hasn't even been connected to outside of Twitter speculation. If Botterill fails to build the roster via well-timed call-ups or a Montour-style trade for a middle-six C, or sticks with Housley and clearly articulates that it's actually him supporting Housley and not an owner-based decision, then I will help light the torches. Before that time, it's just a lot of wasted negative energy.

Two years in, I've got two strikes on J-Botts

#1. The RoR trade. J-Botts should have had teams lined up around the block for RoR, signing bonus or not. To have to take on TWO bad contracts in order to get a 1st, 2nd, and middling prospect back for a 60-70 point center in his prime signed reasonably with no NTC/NMC involved is laughable.
#2. Not addressing the center depth issue after Berglund went MIA. We were razor thin before Berglund left. After, we've been in crisis mode. I'm not talking about blowing a 1st on a rental, plenty of cheap options were out there. Brassard or Cogs were both moved for less than a premium price. Granlund would have been a great pickup, depending on the cost and helped bridge the gap.

 

[oldgoalie]

I will give him attention to detail for the minor league club as a plus. Seeing them have a quality team in Rochester is refreshing.

That said, the graduations aren't all going to be linear and so far we haven't seen the coach able to integrate anyone coming up into any sort of role which doesn't give confidence that growth from within is actually going to happen. Again, Phil has to go.

They've beaten my ability to watch out of me. I didn't think it was possible, but they're killing my love for watching hockey. I can't imagine having to pay for the on-ice sputum they keep putting out there. I'm impressed it's taken you this long to get to the breaking point.

Preach on. I've had it.

 

[Dreakon13]

So in this timeline he's probably gonna punt again next year and we'll MAYBE try to compete for a playoff spot in year 6 of Eichel (with Botts burning at least 3, maybe 4 years off his career for nothing) and in the final year of Dahlin's ELC?

That plan would be a fireable offense, IMO.

I don't see how firing him helps the situation you're laying out. All you're doing is resetting yet again and probably wasting more years for the new GM to enact his own plan.

Though if I'm right that Botts plan is some sort of mass exodus of placeholder vets and Amerk graduation over the next two years, and a new GM follows up on that, and it works... the new GM would get all the credit for doing it so quickly.

 

[OkimLom]

Again, it ignores the deficit in Botterill's abilities to identify, acquire and insert quality, even passable NHLers into this lineup or his ability to be adroit enough to see the mistake of his coaching hire and make a change in the here and now. One can't say the nebulous reinforcements are 2 more seasons away and at the same time ignore the immediate. Players aren't going to sit around waiting for someday. That's foolish.

For me, Bott's standing with me will all be about his next hire for head coach of the Sabres, or overall decision with what he does with Housley. Keeping Mittelstadt and Tage Thompson up through the year kind of spits in the face of the idea that he's really concerned about Rochester and development, IMO. Trading away a player in a position locked in long term, kind of takes away the idea that he's all about rotation of prospects replacing vets for the path of development. For the most part, his targets for filling depth roles have been underwhelming for me. I liked the Skinner trade, and the Montour Trade as they were good hockey trades. But there are too many questionable decisions within his own "plan" of developing players and impacting Rochester, for me to feel comfortable with him long term. The one good thing he has done is the hiring of Taylor. As we have seen Taylor has done a great job this year and was okay last year.

I really hope is vision works out. I just am wary of how good the vision is.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Two years in, I've got two strikes on J-Botts

#1. The RoR trade. J-Botts should have had teams lined up around the block for RoR, signing bonus or not. To have to take on TWO bad contracts in order to get a 1st, 2nd, and middling prospect back for a 60-70 point center in his prime signed reasonably with no NTC/NMC involved is laughable.
#2. Not addressing the center depth issue after Berglund went MIA. We were razor thin before Berglund left. After, we've been in crisis mode. I'm not talking about blowing a 1st on a rental, plenty of cheap options were out there. Brassard or Cogs were both moved for less than a premium price. Granlund would have been a great pickup, depending on the cost and helped bridge the gap.

I won't re-hash the ROR trade. Didn't like it from day 1, but 30 seconds later I realized there had to have been extenuating circumstances beyond Botterill's control.

Brassard cost a pick that Buffalo doesn't have, possibly not this draft, and definitely not next draft where the pick was slated for. Buffalo is missing three picks from rd 2-4 in the next two drafts, so I can't blame not trading another for a temporary fix. Cogliano has three years under contract, and that's too long for another placeholder. Yes, in general it would be nice to pick up a quality vet, but not the type of player we would want for the price it would take. I hope for a FA signing, or a bigger deal targeting a younger, longer term addition that would cost more, but be much more worth it.

 

[sabrebuild]

I’m not sure who to feel worse for, those who have realized for a while this was bad, those who just realized how stupid this has been or those who still cling to the idea that this is a good plan and we just need to be patient.

When waiting for ahl callups to really turn things around, without a single blue chip prospect in the ahl....

How many years of mediocrity is acceptable to you people? How many times do you have to come up with reasons to excuse trash before you agree it’s trash.

Should be interesting this offseason.

Realistically, the Sabres don’t move up in the draft and get someone at 5-9 who is not ready for the nhl right away.

They resign Skinner, drop off Pominville and don’t really have the cap flexibility to sign a big fish.

Skinner Eichel Tage??
Sheary Mitts Reinhart
Oloffson Sobotka Erod
Girgs Larson Okposo

Dahlin Bogo
Pilut Risto
McCabe Montour

Is year 3 really going to be better? Either you keep Phil, oi vey, or it’s a new coach with a new system, blah blah blah.

I think you have to assume perfect health for most of that roster to have any hope of significant improvement, barring Dahlin going full Bobby Orr and winning the Norris.

But if any of your top 3 forwards go down you are immediately screwed, if Dahlin or Risto get hurt screwed, if Bogo gets hurt, headed towards screwed.

Maybe Botts has a super crafty trade up his sleeve. But his year 3 team options look a lot like more of the same.

And then in year 4 he has to spend a boatload of cap on Dahlin and Reinhart. Unless he trades them.

But realistically look at the above roster, think about the fixes you need, and realize because of the bridge deal, Reinhart and Dahlin are going to account for an extra 12 million in cap at that point.

So if this is Botts long scheme, he has zero room for error on these minor league reinforcements being good, becathevwont be able to afford any other help.

 

[TehDoak]

I won't re-hash the ROR trade. Didn't like it from day 1, but 30 seconds later I realized there had to have been extenuating circumstances beyond Botterill's control.

The only scenario that would alleviate GMJB from some blame is if the Pegulas changed their mind about paying the bonus until the last minute and GMJB had to due the best he could on short notice.

What appears to have happened is GMJB tried to wait out a marginally better offer post draft and got hosed.

Brassard cost a pick that Buffalo doesn't have, possibly not this draft, and definitely not next draft where the pick was slated for. Buffalo is missing three picks from rd 2-4 in the next two drafts, so I can't blame not trading another for a temporary fix. Cogliano has three years under contract, and that's too long for another placeholder. Yes, in general it would be nice to pick up a quality vet, but not the type of player we would want for the price it would take. I hope for a FA signing, or a bigger deal targeting a younger, longer term addition that would cost more, but be much more worth it.

Brassard was traded twice. If GMJB calls up Pittsburgh Dec 15th, he can probably get him cheap-ish, even if its not a pick. Cogs might end up being our 4th line center next year...but he'd be a huge upgrade on Sobotka for the short term. Neither would have cost much. This was the kind of "low cost short term bandaid" that might have at least kept us in the playoff hunt. I really view the current version of the team a kind of snowballing of confidence depletion and a coach being over matched. If GMJB had stepped up earlier and spent a small future to stop the bleeding earlier, we could very well be in the playoff race now. The team has gotten progressively worse this season as the losses have piled up. That's on the coach and the GM for not seeing it coming, even though nearly everyone else could see it coming.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

I’m not sure who to feel worse for, those who have realized for a while this was bad, those who just realized how stupid this has been or those who still cling to the idea that this is a good plan and we just need to be patient.

When waiting for ahl callups to really turn things around, without a single blue chip prospect in the ahl....

How many years of mediocrity is acceptable to you people? How many times do you have to come up with reasons to excuse trash before you agree it’s trash.

Should be interesting this offseason.

Realistically, the Sabres don’t move up in the draft and get someone at 5-9 who is not ready for the nhl right away.

They resign Skinner, drop off Pominville and don’t really have the cap flexibility to sign a big fish.

Skinner Eichel Tage??
Sheary Mitts Reinhart
Oloffson Sobotka Erod
Girgs Larson Okposo

Dahlin Bogo
Pilut Risto
McCabe Montour

Is year 3 really going to be better? Either you keep Phil, oi vey, or it’s a new coach with a new system, blah blah blah.

I think you have to assume perfect health for most of that roster to have any hope of significant improvement, barring Dahlin going full Bobby Orr and winning the Norris.

But if any of your top 3 forwards go down you are immediately screwed, if Dahlin or Risto get hurt screwed, if Bogo gets hurt, headed towards screwed.

Maybe Botts has a super crafty trade up his sleeve. But his year 3 team options look a lot like more of the same.

And then in year 4 he has to spend a boatload of cap on Dahlin and Reinhart. Unless he trades them.

But realistically look at the above roster, think about the fixes you need, and realize because of the bridge deal, Reinhart and Dahlin are going to account for an extra 12 million in cap at that point.

So if this is Botts long scheme, he has zero room for error on these minor league reinforcements being good, becathevwont be able to afford any other help.

So if keeping the current bad coach, and getting a new coach are going to be equally bad what should the team do? Sell all their players and start over again?

If Plan B is Super Crafty Trade, it sounds unreliable.

 

[sabrebuild]

So if keeping the current bad coach, and getting a new coach are going to be equally bad what should the team do? Sell all their players and start over again?

If Plan B is Super Crafty Trade, it sounds unreliable.

Oh I’m all aBout firing Phil today if they could bring in a known quantity like Q.

My point regarding the new coach is just future arguments people will use to defend Botts plan when we such again next year.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Oh I’m all aBout firing Phil today if they could bring in a known quantity like Q.

My point regarding the new coach is just future arguments people will use to defend Botts plan when we such again next year.

So, that gets back to my question. If they hire a new coach and are bad, what should they do? Scrap the roster unless they get a super crafty trade?

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

The only scenario that would alleviate GMJB from some blame is if the Pegulas changed their mind about paying the bonus until the last minute and GMJB had to due the best he could on short notice.

What appears to have happened is GMJB tried to wait out a marginally better offer post draft and got hosed.



Brassard was traded twice. If GMJB calls up Pittsburgh Dec 15th, he can probably get him cheap-ish, even if its not a pick. Cogs might end up being our 4th line center next year...but he'd be a huge upgrade on Sobotka for the short term. Neither would have cost much. This was the kind of "low cost short term bandaid" that might have at least kept us in the playoff hunt. I really view the current version of the team a kind of snowballing of confidence depletion and a coach being over matched. If GMJB had stepped up earlier and spent a small future to stop the bleeding earlier, we could very well be in the playoff race now. The team has gotten progressively worse this season as the losses have piled up. That's on the coach and the GM for not seeing it coming, even though nearly everyone else could see it coming.

Well basically, I think what you're saying amounts to fussing over how to pay for marginal improvements when the real problem is HC.

 

[sabrebuild]

So, that gets back to my question. If they hire a new coach and are bad, what should they do? Scrap the roster unless they get a super crafty trade?

If your asking what I would do today if I’m Pegula, with an assumption that I have not been a strong decision maker in all of these choices, I would fire Botts and Housley.

And then I would take meetings with prospective gm’s. And I would throw a boatload of money at Q.

I would like to find out what I actually have with a competent coach.

But I think that is irrelevant because I’m pretty sure Pegula has had a strong hand in all of this.

The real point is that this is a results business. The results so far are abysmal. And we can wait another year or two and see if things improve.

But today Eichel is 22, he has about 6 years of athletic prime to go. Historically a guy like him is currently in his prime. He will not be as good at 28+.

We don’t have time to have another accepted failed season.

At this point Botts has only succeeded with failure so far, Dahlin.

If Murray got two years after the tank to be good and got fired, I have no earthly idea why Botts deserves more after starting with a better base and more developed young stars.

I’m not a believer in blind optimism. I don’t see what is to be optimistic about Botts ability to build an nhler team.