Speculation: Accumulating Asset Wealth vs. Traditional Team Building

Drew75

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Sep 5, 2005
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Times are changing in Leaf Nation, and Shanahan’s management team is leading the charge with a whole (sort of) new approach towards building a team. In reality, it appears that they are using a similar method that Yzerman employed upon his arrival in Tampa Bay, and one could argue that Detroit has been likely doing this for decades. The change in approach is subtle (which Dubas calls “The Programâ€), and requires a different way of looking at players.

Traditionally, NHL Teams tend to build in a backwards method – starting with a vision of what it considers a competitive team, then drafting and acquiring players in an attempt to fulfill that vision on the roster. Everyone has heard the standard mantras that a team should be built ‘from the net out’ and ‘up the middle’, and thus teams search out those elusive top pairing defensemen and first line centres. A team needs size on the wings? Start drafting big wingers to fill those holes on the roster. The only challenge with this approach is you could miss something – for example, like in a card game, you want an ace to make a hand so badly, and you miss the king that could have made a different – but equally effective hand.

This is where the Leafs current approach differs, and while some traditionalists may struggle with it, the approach itself is both creative and intriguing.

To start with, forget the final roster. Don’t worry about what it may look like, what it should look like, or who will be on it. That will become important, but it’s not at the moment, and the first big change is to stop allowing those ‘end goals’ or the vision of future roster impact current decisions.

The second, but related change, is to view players differently as well. The Leafs are no longer viewing players in terms of where they will fit into the future roster, but simply as assets in the same manner as stocks or investments. Just like stocks, when a team is drafting an 18 year old, they are gambling on the future value of that player.

What the Leafs have shown in their new approach, is that want to draft as often as possible, and they want to select the player they feel will have the highest possible future value. Like stocks, when a player is drafted his value is set by the round or number at which he is selected. The player drafted at number 65 and the player drafted at number 67 leave the draft floor with a virtually identical asset value, but not for long.

This is where the Leafs have realized that they have some control over the future value of a young player by providing that player every possible opportunity to reach their maximum potential. Enter the new Sports Science Department, the enhanced relationship with the Orlando Solar Bears, and a full analytics staff. This is also driving the decision around which player to select. The Leafs are drafting not only kids with high end skill, but kids with compete and determination who will be willing to do what it takes to reach their full potential.

So – a player taken in a later round, such as Dmytro Timashov has high end skill and a great work ethic. When drafted, he’s worth essentially a 5th round pick. The Leafs can now take some time and develop this kid with the hopes that reaches his potential of a top 6 dynamic winger. If successful, that 5th round pick just increased in value to a 1st round pick / good prospect in a position of need (the value of a top 6 dynamic winger).

The Leafs are currently working on building asset wealth within the organization – without worrying about which will be on the final roster. They are essentially trying to acquire as many of these assets as they possibly can and turn them into greater value assets in the future. If the team can have a stockpile of top 6 forwards or top 4 Defensemen, they can use that wealth to build whatever team they wish. If you have 3 or 4 Tyler Johnson type wingers – you can keep one and move the rest.

How much value does a young Tyler Johnson on an ELC have on the market? Don’t get me wrong, some of these drafted kids will end up wearing the blue and white and be part of the final solution, but many will be used as banked assets to acquire pieces that are needed elsewhere.

See, rather than focusing on something like “we need centersâ€, when entering the 3rd round of this past draft, and going for a player like Dergachyov – he’s nice and big, but his most likely development path is to that of a #3 checking centre (let’s be realistic – if he has any sort of chance to be a top 6 centre in the NHL, at 6’4 210lbs, he wouldn’t have been there in the 3rd round). Just ahead of him, the Leafs picked what they feel can turn into an offensive top 6 winger and an effective, mobile top 4 defender. From a pure asset wealth perspective – the top 6 winger has > value than the mobile top 4 D, which has > value than a 3rd line checking centre.

The Leafs build will be simple – they are first accumulating as many undervalued / affordable assets they can in any way they can. Once they have acquired significant asset wealth, they will both determine which assets they will keep, and which can be moved for more appropriate assets to build with.

This is also applied to the big club, with assets like Parenteau, Hunwick, and Spaling. These guys are brought at lower value due to various circumstances – provided better ice time, great coaching, and the best support money can buy. If even ¾ of them can turn thing around, they can become 2nd – 5th round draft picks – which can be used to select even more high-end skill guys, etc, etc. (Spaling becomes a 5th, the 5th becomes a Timashov, the Timashov becomes a top 6 winger, the top 6 winger becomes ? )

Now – before everyone starts screaming that you need to draft that #1center and #1defensemen – no one has said they won’t or even haven’t already. It’s a process, and it’s not done yet – but it’ll sure be interesting to watch. I think the key though is that we should stop worrying about where these kids pencil into our future lineup, and more about what value they will have in the future. It my strong belief that is how the Leafs Brass are doing it.
 

crkkh

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Aug 13, 2010
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Good read...good ideas...:handclap:

I they are following this path in whole, or in part, I think we will be in for a good rebuild...

Thanks for the read...:)
 

BlueBaron

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May 29, 2006
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Best Player Available is one of the biggest draft cliche's for a reason. This isn't exactly a new idea.

Yeah sorry OP but I find everything you posted pretty obvious. I can't think of any team that does not try to improve it's players. The only defining characteristic I see about our new regime is skill is placed ahead of other factors like size and position.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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If you're not a tank/rebuild fan, these concepts might seem revolutionary and remarkable, but this is how most teams operate when they are rebuilding.

It just seems different because for 20 years the Leafs have been focused on singular needs, like "a second line center for Gilmour", "a prime winger for Mats", "a stud blueliner like Rob Blak," "an elite center to replace Mats."
 

ULF_55

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Feb 27, 2002
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BPA

Talked about all the time, with little regard for need (position).

Now if you're trying to say the Burke regime is over (big is better, Europeans are leftovers) certainly.

Might have been Devallano a decade ago talked about drafting skill/talent and then looking at other attributes.

Are any teams not doing analytics?

Maybe we're just seeing this as new in Toronto?
 

Bluelines

Python FTW!
Nov 17, 2013
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Yeah sorry OP but I find everything you posted pretty obvious. I can't think of any team that does not try to improve it's players. The only defining characteristic I see about our new regime is skill is placed ahead of other factors like size and position.

What is obvious for one is not so obvious for another. Seem to remember a number of posters losing their minds with some of the picks and people we passed up.

It was a good read.
 

Canada4Gold

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Dec 22, 2010
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If you're playing poker looking for an ace when a king gives you just as good of a hand and you don't realize this then you're not e very good poker player
 

BlueBaron

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What is obvious for one is not so obvious for another. Seem to remember a number of posters losing their minds with some of the picks and people we passed up.

It was a good read.

Fair enough, I suppose to the average Toronto fan a serious rebuild is a foreign idea.
 

Leafsman

I guess $11M doesn't buy you what it use to
May 22, 2008
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Best Player Available is one of the biggest draft cliche's for a reason. This isn't exactly a new idea.

Do you not think though that BPA is the main method of the 1st round and with each new round, the method is abandoned more and more. Teams use later rounds a little more biased towards currents needs.


What I could see the new regime doing is hunting for and stockpiling 2nds and 3rds and targeting what I like to call "The Fallen." The prospects that were highly touted at one point but slipped for some reason (ie: size, which is why we see alot of <6'ers).
 

Daisy Jane

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Jul 2, 2009
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Do you not think though that BPA is the main method of the 1st round and with each new round, the method is abandoned more and more. Teams use later rounds a little more biased towards currents needs.


What I could see the new regime doing is hunting for and stockpiling 2nds and 3rds and targeting what I like to call "The Fallen." The prospects that were highly touted at one point but slipped for some reason (ie: size, which is why we see alot of <6'ers).

I think so - it really looked like that was the plan this season, especially with that late 1st rounder. I can see them trying to get more "1st" and (for the forseeable future) trying to get more falling players or those sleepers, and then putting the new programme to the test (with the analytical department and the sports science department). like if someone drops because of skating - get him and really, really work on it etc.

this isn't to say other organizations don't do that - but more.. focus towards it, per-se

I also think what Drew is saying is that everyone is beating on this drum that we HAVE to get a 1st line centre or a #1 defenseman like right away, but if we have a bevy of assets, we can then make a package to get one? i may have that wrong
 

Quares27

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Apr 3, 2013
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Yeah sorry OP but I find everything you posted pretty obvious. I can't think of any team that does not try to improve it's players. The only defining characteristic I see about our new regime is skill is placed ahead of other factors like size and position.

huh? that's not what the point of the post was. The point is that rather than the traditional approach of drafting certain type of players to project the roster 3 years from now - i.e. we need to take Strome because we need a big #1C, or we need Hanifin because we need a 25 minute a night 1st pairing D - the Leafs are simply acquiring what the feel the most valuable assets are. And then in the future these assets will have more value than picking based on need, so the Leafs will be able to trade these assets, even if they're all too similar or not what the Leafs need, for what they need + more.

So for a really basic example say the Leafs needed a 4th line tough guy for the future... normally a team might draft someone like David Broll in the 6th round to fill that quota. Instead the Leafs draft a skilled Russian, and then if he reaches his potential that skilled Russian will have a lot more value than a 4th line tough guy, and if they still wanted that 4th line tough guy they'd be able to bring in Broll ++. So instead of just having Broll they'd have Broll ++

This is all hypothetical and based on the idea that players actually turn out well, but it seems to be the strategy they're going with and why people shouldn't get so hung up on "oh we're only drafting small guys, we're going to be a team of midgets in 5 years"
 

TheProspector

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Oct 18, 2007
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Kyle Dubas clearly thinks that there was a lot of inefficiency left in the 60s..

Drafting is already such a low probability proposition that further hampering your odds by not selecting BPA is insane.

We can always turn a successful BPA that we don't have an immediate team fit for to get a player of similar value that we do need..

I do worry that expectations are going to be a little overstated for Dubas. Spreadsheets might help him draft an extra NHL player over the course of a draft. Even the astute fan will have a difficult time measuring the real value, or lack there of, especially over the short term. Over 4-5 seasons, it'll be more apparent if his approach leads to better NHL outcomes.
 

Leafsman

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May 22, 2008
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I also think what Drew is saying is that everyone is beating on this drum that we HAVE to get a 1st line centre or a #1 defenseman like right away, but if we have a bevy of assets, we can then make a package to get one? i may have that wrong

Here's an even bigger question that you just sparked:

With proper asset acquisition and management, can you create a system with less dependency on a clear #1C or #1D?

If more of your team is reaching its potential, then really you are filling positions with more capable players throughout your entire lineup.
 

Leafsman

I guess $11M doesn't buy you what it use to
May 22, 2008
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Kyle Dubas clearly thinks that there was a lot of inefficiency left in the 60s..

Drafting is already such a low probability proposition that further hampering your odds by not selecting BPA is insane.

We can always turn a successful BPA that we don't have an immediate team fit for to get a player of similar value that we do need..

I do worry that expectations are going to be a little overstated for Dubas. Spreadsheets might help him draft an extra NHL player over the course of a draft. Even the astute fan will have a difficult time measuring the real value, or lack there of, especially over the short term. Over 4-5 seasons, it'll be more apparent if his approach leads to better NHL outcomes.

I think despite everyone believing that teams have been selecting the BPA, there has still been some bias on size, foot speed and other workable characteristics.

With a purely analytical approach based on numbers, it may be time to select the pure BPA minus any bias whatsoever.
 

MJ65

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Jul 12, 2009
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Yeah sorry OP but I find everything you posted pretty obvious. I can't think of any team that does not try to improve it's players. The only defining characteristic I see about our new regime is skill is placed ahead of other factors like size and position.

Ya right - so why we are in a sorry state and half of the teams in this league are still borderline playoff teams. We should give some credit to this regime and wait for the results. I think we are in the right direction
 

Daisy Jane

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Jul 2, 2009
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Here's an even bigger question that you just sparked:

With proper asset acquisition and management, can you create a system with less dependency on a clear #1C or #1D?

If more of your team is reaching its potential, then really you are filling positions with more capable players throughout your entire lineup.

Maybe.

I do think you do need those steady minute munchers (and I think people will step up naturally). but I think the stress of needing one will be mitigated. Or - we'll have the assets to take advantage of the RFA market (which with the cap rising, there wll always be a Hamilton situation, or a Saad situation). we need to beat the cap.

But with Babcock here it lessens the demand. it will be interesting to see it all play out that's for sure.
 

Leafsman

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May 22, 2008
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Maybe.

I do think you do need those steady minute munchers (and I think people will step up naturally). but I think the stress of needing one will be mitigated. Or - we'll have the assets to take advantage of the RFA market (which with the cap rising, there wll always be a Hamilton situation, or a Saad situation). we need to beat the cap.

But with Babcock here it lessens the demand. it will be interesting to see it all play out that's for sure.

After another off-season like this one and you can definitely look into offer sheets. I'm not sure why these aren't used. Sure wouldn't mind Leafs mgmt being the first.
 

Drew75

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Sep 5, 2005
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Ok - I obviously failed to properly articulate my point.

I am not talking about BPA - what the Leafs are doing is subtly different and expands beyond drafting.

Traditionally - a rebuilding team would have entered this draft and focused on getting BPA centers and defense - build from the back end and up the middle. The vision of the final roster (and what is perceived as needed) would bias and drive the decision on who BPA is.

A traditional rebuilding team would have stayed at #24 and taken Konecny. The Leafs, on the other hand, turned Konecny into Dermott, Bracco, and Dzierkals. From a BPA perspective - Konecny would be likely choice hands down - but with the Leafs new "program" of trying to identify undervalued or overlooked players with high end potential - they turned the tables.

Konecny is BPA ... right now. He will likely develop into a top 6 dynamic winger at the NHL level - which is high value.
Bracco, however - will also likely develop as a top 6 dynamic winger at the NHL level - so while today Konecny has greater value than Bracco - the Leafs are gambling that with their new development resources behind him, Bracco will close that value gap, and possibly end up just as valuable as Konecny. On top of that - they will also add a potential Top 4 mobile D-man, and another potential Top 6 dynamic winger to boot! Even if only two develop fully - the asset value from the deal in 3 or 4 years will be far greater to the Leafs advantage.

See? Notice how never once was where these players will fit into the roster mentioned? Because that's NOT the approach. It's purely a 'moneypuck' type thing where the Leaf brass is trying to find undervalued / overlooked assets and to use their resources to develop those assets into greater value assets. They are trying to accumulate as many assets as possible, thus creating wealth.

Traditional teams will select guys like Adam Musil or Alex Dergachyov who have size and some skill - but in reality will project to a 3rd line checking center. They are hoping that the 10% chance the player hits a 2nd line upside comes true, but knows that it's a safe pick as at least the guy will likely be a player. The Leafs are looking at the future value of a 3rd line checking centre vs. a potential Top 4 D or Top 6 forward and going for guys like Timashov or Korostelev instead.

It also applies to guys like Parenteau, Hunwick, and Arcobello as well. With a whole new analytics team - do you not find it curious how quickly the Leafs identified such random guys who other teams wouldn't be pressing on? The intention is to sign them low, increase their value dramatically, and move them for more assets. I think the principle is not a surprise - but I get the sense that we will be surprised how dramatically their value will rise with this money-puck voodoo! :popcorn:

This is not your fathers rebuild guys. We're not doing traditional BPA at the draft, and we're not doing the traditional build by trying to stockpile by position to pencil guys into your roster.

This was started by Jimmy D in Detroit, taken a step further by Yzerman in Detroit - but I think we're watching the 'Money-Puck' evolution here.
 

Liminality

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Oct 22, 2008
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BPA is nothing new but having your priorities changed to reconsider what your new BPA criteria is a big change in philosophy. It looks like the Leafs are hitting that to the extreme this year and I agree Leafs are going for high asset value.

Obviously I'd like to think all teams go for their BPA but everyone's BPA is different and they rank variables differently. Leafs put a huge emphasis on high IQ, speed and skill in today's NHL and going for those home run picks.

If some of the picks the Leafs made pan out, they're going to be sought after top 6 or top 4 guys with skill and speed and valuable trade assets if we have an abundance. Leafs have a long road ahead of them anyways so they can take these risks early on to try and snatch up that value. Will the BPA slightly change after a couple years? maybe
 

Bluelines

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Nov 17, 2013
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Here's an even bigger question that you just sparked:

With proper asset acquisition and management, can you create a system with less dependency on a clear #1C or #1D?


If more of your team is reaching its potential, then really you are filling positions with more capable players throughout your entire lineup.

I think you can, that Buffalo team in the mid 2000's with Drury, Briere, Vanek had no real superstars but played an amazing team game, it was wave after wave of pressure. If your 3rd and 4th line are a threat to score and can play strong defence, that takes pressure off the 1st and 2nd lines and makes it a night mare for the opposing coach to match lines but the key is all 4 lines have to be strong defensivly and have to be threats to score, having a line like Kessel-JVR-Bozak wouldnt work in that type of system because they simply would be the weak link defensivly.
 

Marmoset

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Apr 4, 2015
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Ok - I obviously failed to properly articulate my point.

I am not talking about BPA - what the Leafs are doing is subtly different and expands beyond drafting.

Traditionally - a rebuilding team would have entered this draft and focused on getting BPA centers and defense - build from the back end and up the middle. The vision of the final roster (and what is perceived as needed) would bias and drive the decision on who BPA is.

A traditional rebuilding team would have stayed at #24 and taken Konecny. The Leafs, on the other hand, turned Konecny into Dermott, Bracco, and Dzierkals. From a BPA perspective - Konecny would be likely choice hands down - but with the Leafs new "program" of trying to identify undervalued or overlooked players with high end potential - they turned the tables.

Konecny is BPA ... right now. He will likely develop into a top 6 dynamic winger at the NHL level - which is high value.
Bracco, however - will also likely develop as a top 6 dynamic winger at the NHL level - so while today Konecny has greater value than Bracco - the Leafs are gambling that with their new development resources behind him, Bracco will close that value gap, and possibly end up just as valuable as Konecny. On top of that - they will also add a potential Top 4 mobile D-man, and another potential Top 6 dynamic winger to boot! Even if only two develop fully - the asset value from the deal in 3 or 4 years will be far greater to the Leafs advantage.

See? Notice how never once was where these players will fit into the roster mentioned? Because that's NOT the approach. It's purely a 'moneypuck' type thing where the Leaf brass is trying to find undervalued / overlooked assets and to use their resources to develop those assets into greater value assets. They are trying to accumulate as many assets as possible, thus creating wealth.

Traditional teams will select guys like Adam Musil or Alex Dergachyov who have size and some skill - but in reality will project to a 3rd line checking center. They are hoping that the 10% chance the player hits a 2nd line upside comes true, but knows that it's a safe pick as at least the guy will likely be a player. The Leafs are looking at the future value of a 3rd line checking centre vs. a potential Top 4 D or Top 6 forward and going for guys like Timashov or Korostelev instead.

It also applies to guys like Parenteau, Hunwick, and Arcobello as well. With a whole new analytics team - do you not find it curious how quickly the Leafs identified such random guys who other teams wouldn't be pressing on? The intention is to sign them low, increase their value dramatically, and move them for more assets. I think the principle is not a surprise - but I get the sense that we will be surprised how dramatically their value will rise with this money-puck voodoo! :popcorn:

This is not your fathers rebuild guys. We're not doing traditional BPA at the draft, and we're not doing the traditional build by trying to stockpile by position to pencil guys into your roster.

This was started by Jimmy D in Detroit, taken a step further by Yzerman in Detroit - but I think we're watching the 'Money-Puck' evolution here.

You could be right, but you could also be overanalyzing the Leafs' actions.

Perhaps at #24 they simply felt that no player available was significantly better than what they could get at #29 (and then #34). If they had liked someone enough there, I'm sure they would have used the original pick. It is extremely unlikely they were going to trade #24 no matter what. Every year several teams usually trade down from a late first or early second round pick.

Regarding Parenteau, Hunwick, etc. - many teams bring guys like this in. It's not just the Leafs, everyone needs to fill out their roster. Teams in rebuilding situations like the Leafs have to do this to avoid doing what Buffalo did and rush guys to the NHL who aren't ready. Playoff teams brings these guys in too, for depth or to fill holes. I don't think the Leafs are doing anything special in this area.

Given the above, there may be something to your first point about the draft. Clearly the Leafs are not drafting for the seemingly obvious positions of need - there were no 'Gauthier' picks that I can see. Again though, I don't think this is revolutionary, it's just the Leafs operating in a smarter manner which some teams (not all) have already been doing for some time.
 

Drew75

Registered User
Sep 5, 2005
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0
You could be right, but you could also be overanalyzing the Leafs' actions.

Perhaps at #24 they simply felt that no player available was significantly better than what they could get at #29 (and then #34). If they had liked someone enough there, I'm sure they would have used the original pick. It is extremely unlikely they were going to trade #24 no matter what. Every year several teams usually trade down from a late first or early second round pick.

Regarding Parenteau, Hunwick, etc. - many teams bring guys like this in. It's not just the Leafs, everyone needs to fill out their roster. Teams in rebuilding situations like the Leafs have to do this to avoid doing what Buffalo did and rush guys to the NHL who aren't ready. Playoff teams brings these guys in too, for depth or to fill holes. I don't think the Leafs are doing anything special in this area.

Given the above, there may be something to your first point about the draft. Clearly the Leafs are not drafting for the seemingly obvious positions of need - there were no 'Gauthier' picks that I can see. Again though, I don't think this is revolutionary, it's just the Leafs operating in a smarter manner which some teams (not all) have already been doing for some time.

Maybe I'm over-analyzing - but everything I've read, seen, and heard tells me that this management group is being creative and finding a new 'money-puck' method of stockpiling assets to obtain a wealth of options.

This is a smart and creative group. During interviews they continually refer to "the Program", keep calling these kids "assets", and mentioning 'future value'. Shanny indicated at the draft that they has specifically targeted UFA players they saw value in, but would not be high on other teams radars. Shanny has more than once talked about doing it differently, and Hunter more than once referenced looking for kids who were 'overlooked' or 'undervalued'.

Time will tell - but with the resources they've brought in (Sports science, analytics, development staff), and the trend of targeting undervalued draftees and ufa's - I'm willing to bet we're watching the early stages a new trend developing here.
 

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