Accepting NHL´s offer could be a disaster for PA

[I.am.ca]

Look at Derek Jeter's salary in his first three seasons

1996 New York Yankees $130,000
1997 New York Yankees $550,000
1998 New York Yankees $750,000

http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jeterde01.shtml

Lower right hand corner

750,000 to 5,000,000 to 10,000,000 is a pretty hefty jump.

 

[rt]

about 3.5 mil which isnt alot of money when you consider that they're retiring at an age of 33-34 and have 40 or more years to live.

If you gave me 3.5 million dollars, I would retire right now, and I'm 19.

 

[Digger12]

It doesn't matter how much the pay is. They'll still be playing hockey, and still be getting paid, well the Gary Bettman and the NHL can work their PR image here in the States.

There will be no Salary Cap. And I'm with the players on this one.

If you think the players will be content to play in Europe for the rest of their finite careers, you'll be in for a surprise.

And do you think the young guys coming up year after year will simply follow them like lemmings into that purgatory?

 

[Johnnybegood13]

I support the owners side and I don't necessarily want them to "rake in the profits" - I just want all sides to be on solid financial ground so the league can remain viable and healthy. The players will still be getting the lion's share of the money at the end of the day.

They've been offered 54% of the revenues and Bettman said that they would be willing to negotiate this figure. For the 2002-03 season, revenues were $1.996 billion. Players got $1.494 billion in salaries and benefits (75% of the pie.) $775 million went to other operating costs (travel, arena leases, team staff, scouting, etc.) That's 39% of revenues. Assuming that percentage holds the same, the owners will get at most, 7% of the total pie in profit. And remember, the league has said they'll negotiate on the 54% figure so the owners may very well wind up with less.

This plan gives all sides incentives to improve the game and increase revenues. If league revenues increase, the $38.6 million cap per team increases.

Good post. consider this.

10 years ago the NFL came to an agreement on 53% going to the players which turned out to be a 34 million dollar cap for each team.
10 years later the NFL has flurished and that cap is now roughly 80 million and everyone seems happy with the agreement...including the union.

Why would the players not be happy with a system that had players salaries grow roughly 120% over 10 years? Bettman proposes an average salarie of 1.3 mill with a chance to grow every year.

I guess the players don't really beleive the NHL can grow in popularity like the NFL has

 

[txomisc]

If you gave me 3.5 million dollars, I would retire right now, and I'm 19.

yeah im 27 and id probably retire if given half that....and i live in california land of extreme real estate prices

 

[Ola]

Learn how to do simple math. $800,000/year x 30 years = $24,000,000!

The interest alone on 24 million would add millions to that figure. Can you elaborate on how 95% of the players would blow over $20 million?

Secondly, how is making $800,000 a "disaster"? I would kill to make that kind of coin. Thats over 20 times what I make a year. Please get in touch with reality!

Finally, you mentioned that many NHL'ers will get paid better in Russia? How do you figure? Russia is a very poor country in relation to any Western Democracy. The most they would offer the players would be in the neighborhood of $200,000. That's why the NHL has all the leverage over the NHLPA. The players have no alternative, unless they enjoy playing in some foreign country for 1/5 of their NHL salary!

I think the averege NHL carrer lasts 3 years or something.

Are you familiar with the baseball agreement?Baseball players in the first three seasons of their career have no leverage and the team decides how much to pay them and players can not do anything about it.After their third season,they can file for arbitration.The first three years is called paying dues and your time will come

The NHL players wouldn´t have any leverage for 12 years.

That's the rub though, isn't it? What ought they to earn?

Considering the overall lack of entertainment value and low TV contract, do the players deserve a 1.8 million average salary? I don't blame them for all the game's woes, but neither are they innocent bystanders. They're the ones doing the hooking and waterskiing through the neutral zone, and they're also the loudest complainers when the refs actually try to crack down on it and you get the resultant 20 power plays per night. They deserve some blame.

How is lowering that average to 1.3-1.5M more of a disaster than their current predicament of not playing at all or playing in leagues that pay much less than even that in average salary?

What ought they earn? In every other line of work, what the market is prepared to offer them. However in the NHL what the market is prepared to offer them will come back and hurt themselfs and their trade without a doubt. Adjustments have to be done.

Apperntly the players feels not playing at all is better then to accept this insane offer from Bettman.

Without a doubt there are other ways to do this then a hard cap with a 3 million window.

This proposal by Bettman is allmost as insane as if the players would give a proposal more generous then the one in 94´-04´.

 

[IceDragoon]

Dont be jealous because youre in a middle of the road job like 98% of the population and dont have the skillset or demand to see you work. The players generate probably 99% of the revenues. They are the product.

The players play the games, the fans follow the PLAYERS on their teams, the players are the face, they are the reason that people buy tickets.

The players are the product. They pretty much are the reason that 2.1 billion is generated...

The GAME is the product.
The vast majority of fans, cheer for their favourite TEAM, playing the GAME they love.
Any "hero worship" that fans may have for players, is only a by-product of their support for their TEAMs.

... They should be paid according to what the owners think they are worth...

I couldn't agree with you more.
They should be paid, according to what ALL owners think they're worth.
Under the now defunct CBA, they were paid according to what 5 or 6 owners (who have no bottom line; and, apparently, could give a rats *** that 24 to 25 owners have to adhere to a bottom line) felt like throwing around/away.
And, if the majority of owners were to work together and try to determine REAL worth, they would be guilty of collusion.
Players worth has been, artificially, inflated for years.
In order for the NHL to continue, as we know it; the players (and a few owners) need a dose of reality.
Time to come back down to earth and build, together, on a solid foundation.

... No reason for a sensible fan to want the owners to rake in the profits, when it is ensured that those profits could not be reinvested into the players (prpoduct)...

Consumers (fans) could care less about the breakdown of expenditures,
as long as, the product (team) delivers.

... How stupid are the masses anyway? Surpassing even my lowest expectations (in the wrong direction).

Although, you make think you are superior to the "masses" you decry, this statement shows that you lack wisdom.

btw - condescension is not proof of intelligence. it is only proof of arrogance.

 

[Ola]

Also the players that makes it to the NHL have to beat out roughly a 70.000-100.000 kids born the same age as them. They are the elite in their line of work. Would it have been mathematics or acting they would have been paid well to.

 

[Internet King]

And they would still be playing hockey if they accepted a cap. And, they'd be making 10 times the money to boot.

I'm sorry, but the players aren't going to hold out and make less money just to make a point. In the end, they will have to cut their losses and cave before even the NHL becomes unnattractive.

These guys would rather not play in Europe. They have wives and families that can't just relocate to another continent.

And I disagree with that. Cause the NHLPA will not fold with Bob heading the troops.

 

[Digger12]

Apperntly the players feels not playing at all is better then to accept this insane offer from Bettman.

I wonder if their agents feel the same way?

It's rather amusing that all of a sudden the players are developing this altruistic streak and now it's "not about the money" and all about taking a stand for what's right and sticking up for each other.

Where was this heart of gold when their association created the SCORE system to help pillage the owners in arbitration and holdout negotiations?

If they decide to let their emotions override their business sense, then they'll come to regret it. And I'm sure the future players won't be thanking this generation for the state they could be leaving behind.

 

[waffledave]

And I disagree with that. Cause the NHLPA will not fold with Bob heading the troops.

If Bob doesn't know when to back down, he'll be out of a job.

 

[I in the Eye]

And I disagree with that. Cause the NHLPA will not fold with Bob heading the troops.

I think we're going to get a chance to see how united the players (and owners) really are... Unfortunately, we are caught between a gang 'territorial' war, with really no method of defending ourselves - just hope for the best, with minimal damage being done (where the best means different things to different people)...

 

[membleypeg]

Also the players that makes it to the NHL have to beat out roughly a 70.000-100.000 kids born the same age as them. They are the elite in their line of work. Would it have been mathematics or acting they would have been paid well to.

I agree with you that the NHL hockey player has to have rare talent combined with a tremendous work ethic. I would also say that luck has factored into the equation of him making the NHL, as injuries unfortunately destroy many kids dreams.

I would like you to consider something however, and that is the instruction and support the player has received to get to this level. I can tell you that every one of these players has benefitted from countless free hours of training and instruction from numerous volunteer coaches. These players also receive multitudes of help from volunteer fund raising, training, cleaning the ice etc.

Due to the help of many, these players have made the NHL. Because of the players outrageous salary demands, the price of a ticket is through the roof. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time understanding the players goughing of the market (demand what the market will bear attitude). Make no mistake that the North American fan is paying the way in the NHL. Most of the people that love hockey in this country can no longer afford the ticket prices. I applaud any way that the NHL can lower the players salaries to a level where we can possibly see a reduction in the price of a ticket to watch a game.

 

[PecaFan]

First of all, a young player have no leverge whats so ever when it comes to negotiating contracts.

As it should be. They're the equivalent of starting work in the mail room. They shouldn't have leverage until they've *earned* it with a few years in the league.

Second, with gauranteed contracts and a small window for teams in the cap between $38.6 million and $34.6 million will make the transfer market crazy. Players will be wheeled and dealt all over the place all the time.

We already have a crazy transfer market. Tons of guys move at the deadline, and during the off season.

If a important player goes down it will be impossible to replace them.

Only if a team is poorly managed. The teams that manage their finances well, have good depth and smart payrolls will not have any problems.

Which is just as it should be. The best run teams will have the most success.

As a result of the small cap window the majority of contracts will be really short. I wouldn´t be suprised if we started seeing 3 month and 6 month contracts out there for role players.

There's no such thing. All contracts are a year minimum.

 

[quat]

It doesn't matter how much the pay is. They'll still be playing hockey, and still be getting paid, well the Gary Bettman and the NHL can work their PR image here in the States.

There will be no Salary Cap. And I'm with the players on this one.

You're out of work and led by a negotiator who is clearly incapable to say nothing of innept? A good negotiator is supposed to have a good sense of how things will eventually work out. In 94 he had a large number of factors that have been brought up on these boards before, and his hardline stance was successful in winning huge benifits for his "union".

When the NHL approached Bob several years ago asking to renegotiate, that should have been a big clue that the landscape had changed. Unfortunately for hockey players and the fans, Bob was still basking in his past glory.

Goodenow is getting schooled big time, and although I lean towards the Owners in this dispute, I certainly don't like to see the players led by such a yutz... or even a putz.

 

[quat]

If you gave me 3.5 million dollars, I would retire right now, and I'm 19.

If you gave me 3.5 million dollars, I would put beer in an IV drip and attach it to the cat.



But that's me.

 

[Go Flames Go*]

Right now is the best deal that can be made, there is no negotiations to be held, the offer is on the table the framework is there take it or leave it. The other things can be negotiated. They need to accept the payroll ranges system now or otherwise its just gonna be a far worse deal. When Lonny Bohnos, Rocky Thompson, Mike Commodore are playing as replacement players and other mid range players break the rank, lets see how fast Bobn Goodenow crumbles. We will win this battle wether that peice of garbage Trevor Linden, Teddy Saskins(Mr. 1 Tooth is good enough for me), or that fool Goodenow. They are not though enough for the pain the owners will inflict on them. I hope everyone is in this for the long haul, because we will get the right system in the NHL, and these overpaid greedy loosers who said **** the fans will be crumbled.

Get em Bettman.

 

[Ola]

As it should be. They're the equivalent of starting work in the mail room. They shouldn't have leverage until they've *earned* it with a few years in the league.

Which is just as it should be. The best run teams will have the most success.

It wouldn´t be a few years. It would be 12 years.

I think that its safe to say that a amount of players will bolt to for example Russia if this offer from the NHL is accepted. GM´s are gooing to be really hard in negotiations and for example all russians who doesn´t get what they want will have a 1.0-3.0m alternative over there. This is gooing to take away some skill level from the game without a doubt. However the top end players will always stay in the NHL. With a lesser skill level overall these players will get more important. Teams who are able to attract 4-5 really good players are gooing to be really hard to stop. These players won´t make 10m anymore, probably around 5-7 m with the new hard cap.

You said the best run teams will have the best success. Thats my point. But the most important part of management won´t be drafting, making good trades ect. anymore. It will be hardballing young kids in negotiations. Either sign for 800K or go home. The most successful teams will be thoose who manage to keep 7-8 forwards and 4 defenders paid less then a million per year. Because in the end it will only be these teams who will be able to take on big contracts.

95% of the players would have the choice of making 800K a year or nothing at all, untill they reach 30 still playing. Which only what 3% of the players in the NHL ever does.

I agrees with thoose who say, its still better then nothing. Its still allot of money. But this form of the NHL proposal is so much worse for the PA then several others systems that would work for the NHL. If anything I can understand why the players doesn´t want this. And Bettman also knows that getting the players to sign a proposal in the neigboorhood of what he is offering right now will take atleast 1.5 years. In the mean time there is a good chance that he will make unrepairable damage to the game. This is something he doesn´t seem to realize. Its the 15 of december and he still hasn´t started to negotiating. Nothing Bettman done so far has worked. He hasn´t taken advantage of a national ESPN contract whatso ever. He pulled of the expansion and it backfired tremendously.(lower skill level, worse product) The lowest reveneu teams in the league are teams he located,(not edmonton!!!) except Pittsburg but thats another story.

Its all prestige and making money for the owners for Bettman. I doubt most owners give a crap about yearly earnings and losses, all they care about is franchise resale value. With this labor agreement the owners will have something to put on the overhead when they are negotiating a sale of their franchise. Still this guy gets a standing ovation every where he goes in Canada...

 

[justicex]

Go play overseas where they make a percentage of what they would make even with a salary cap?

Oh, and to reply to this thing as well.. On one side, players will make small bucks overseas. And owners will make money filling out the stadiums with rock concerts and pop stars, while selling apparels of their teams.

Sure they will get lower revenues as well, but since they were making pretty much nothing already ( but Toronto ), their ratios spending/revenues is much better than players right now!

( Since someone will prolly try to attack last point... player ratio is negative or null since they only have banked money and shares & such revenues, while they still need to pay the 4 corvettes and the 2 million house, payments.. )

 

[PecaFan]

It wouldn´t be a few years. It would be 12 years.

No, you're wrong. A player would have leverage as soon as his entry deal expires. Which is three years, or four if the NHL gets its way. At that point, he can withhold his services, and refuse to sign any deal he doesn't feel is worthy of his obviously superior skills. If he's correct, he'll get his big raise.

I think that its safe to say that a amount of players will bolt to for example Russia if this offer from the NHL is accepted.

I think it's safe to say that only a handful of players can make more money elsewhere than in the NHL.

You said the best run teams will have the best success. Thats my point. But the most important part of management won´t be drafting, making good trades ect. anymore. It will be hardballing young kids in negotiations.

Good negotiating skills are already a vital skill of today's GM's. There's nothing new there. The best GM's do *all* of the above.

95% of the players would have the choice of making 800K a year or nothing at all, untill they reach 30 still playing. Which only what 3% of the players in the NHL ever does.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that GM's will be able to force players to sign contracts for the same pay as their previous deals. That's simply not the case.

 

[justicex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaredsensfan
Dont be jealous because youre in a middle of the road job like 98% of the population and dont have the skillset or demand to see you work. The players generate probably 99% of the revenues. They are the product.

The players play the games, the fans follow the PLAYERS on their teams, the players are the face, they are the reason that people buy tickets.

The players are the product. They pretty much are the reason that 2.1 billion is generated. They should be paid according to what the owners think they are worth.

No reason for a sensible fan to want the owners to rake in the profits, when it is ensured that those profits could not be reinvested into the players (prpoduct)

How stupid are the masses anyway? Surpassing even my lowest expectations (in the wrong direction).

dude, fans follow teams
they become fans of certain players because they are on the team they like. this is evidenced by the fact that when certain players leave teams they get the hell booed out of them. the players are alot easier to replace than the franchises

True, also the owners need to pay loans on some arena, the big staff they have, the management, the marketing, etc.

Players are at some points what bring the money, but the curve of the *average caliber of players in the league* vs *revenues* is not a straight line..

Switch all NHL players with players who normally play in Europe and vice versa and you will still have thousands of peps in arenas because they are wearing the official jerseys..

Hockey players are just like pop stars, hollywood actors and such. They are ultimate products of the marketing machine. Sure they have awesome skills, but those skills do NOT make them more special than another humain.. well.. yes since we are all marketing brainswashed.

 

[misterjaggers]

Accepting NHL´s offer could be a disaster for PA

Perhaps, but it'll be an even greater disaster for the players if this season is lost and the league down-sizes and the cap is forced onto them anyways etc., etc.