AAA11 Semifinal Challenge: Halifax Eurekas! vs. Toledo Walleye
- Thread starter VanIslander
- Start date
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
VanIslander asked me to administrate the AAA draft in his absence. There is not much left to administrate (one team left is VI, who's absent, and the other is Dawson City) but let's see this one through to the end. I don't want to see another AAA final cancelled due to Infleunza.
So - on one hand this needs to get wrapped up at some point. On the other hand, there is no rush and there should be some modicum of discussion before these two series are put to a vote.
So, please discuss your series as best as you can. You probably don't have a debate partner, but who knows - VI might come in and surprise us with a few points of his own. I'll at least post my arguments in my own series at some point as well.
I'll let everyone know when voting is open.
So - on one hand this needs to get wrapped up at some point. On the other hand, there is no rush and there should be some modicum of discussion before these two series are put to a vote.
So, please discuss your series as best as you can. You probably don't have a debate partner, but who knows - VI might come in and surprise us with a few points of his own. I'll at least post my arguments in my own series at some point as well.
I'll let everyone know when voting is open.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
- Possibly the two best AAA goalies right here. Nicholson has been ignored long enough; it's time this guy was a MLD starter. Zinger is Russian, so you just know he's underrated and should be taken about 200 spots earlier.
- I'm concerned about Halifax's ability to put up any points from the second line. Sykora, Arnott, and Juneau have never been "top-10"-type players. Juneau did have the one big season but that was the exception and not the rule. Ran McDonald was one of the best PCHA scorers (11th-13th or something, which at this point ain't bad at all) and Ray Whitney has had seasons as a top-10 goalscorer and playmaker. Does Duguay ruin the unit, though? He's a far cry from Jason Arnott, IMO.
- Sundstrom and Poile make a good checking duo, and Hib Milks is one of the better offensive start of this draft, but I think I have to go with Hound Dog Kelly, Harris and Maki. I can see this line making it tougher on the opposition.
- I don't even know where to start comparing the defense. Murray is better than Tallon. Similar offense, better defense and longevity. Murdoch and Jarrett are probably a wash. Siltanen and Bladon as offensive 2nd pairing guys are a wash, and for that matter, so are Dewsbury and Armstrong as complementary guys. And how do you pick between stay at home guys Smith, Evans, Boesch, and Bouchard? Smith and Evans might appear better individually, but then Boesch and Bouchard contributed to huge amounts of team success. Again, a wash. Thanks to Murray being better than Tallon, I give Halifax a very minor edge.
This one is really tough to call. Hedberg, your thoughts?
- I'm concerned about Halifax's ability to put up any points from the second line. Sykora, Arnott, and Juneau have never been "top-10"-type players. Juneau did have the one big season but that was the exception and not the rule. Ran McDonald was one of the best PCHA scorers (11th-13th or something, which at this point ain't bad at all) and Ray Whitney has had seasons as a top-10 goalscorer and playmaker. Does Duguay ruin the unit, though? He's a far cry from Jason Arnott, IMO.
- Sundstrom and Poile make a good checking duo, and Hib Milks is one of the better offensive start of this draft, but I think I have to go with Hound Dog Kelly, Harris and Maki. I can see this line making it tougher on the opposition.
- I don't even know where to start comparing the defense. Murray is better than Tallon. Similar offense, better defense and longevity. Murdoch and Jarrett are probably a wash. Siltanen and Bladon as offensive 2nd pairing guys are a wash, and for that matter, so are Dewsbury and Armstrong as complementary guys. And how do you pick between stay at home guys Smith, Evans, Boesch, and Bouchard? Smith and Evans might appear better individually, but then Boesch and Bouchard contributed to huge amounts of team success. Again, a wash. Thanks to Murray being better than Tallon, I give Halifax a very minor edge.
This one is really tough to call. Hedberg, your thoughts?
I'd forgotten about this. As with pretty much all the AAA teams, the two sides are very similar. I'd agree the Halifax defence is slightly better and goaltending is nearly identical. At first glance I have a feeling my offensive potential is better, but I would have to check that.
What do you think of MacDougall? I know that nearly the only evidence of him that I have is statistical, but it seems he may be the best forward in the series (if there was a good bio of him somewhere, I bet he'd be in the MLD). Also I think when comparing lines if should be Toledo's 4th vs Halifax's 3rd and Halifax's 4th vs Toledo's 3rd in terms of roles. Kelly-Harris-Maki is a better checking line than Milks-Sundstrom-Poile, but is it better than Mishakov-Patey-Larochelle?
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Good point. you have a lot more defense and sandpaper on that 4th line, too.
As for McDougall, here's what I can find:
- His name appears to definitely be McDougall and not MacDougall.
- 52 goals in 33 league games, 4 in 6 Cup Games.
- 1895: tied for 4th in the AHA with 10 goals in 8 games. N.Rankin had 11 and Haviland Routh had 19. Rankin and 9-goal Drinkwater were the basis of the Victorias offense, along with mcDougall. They won the cup in one of those cases of "they won the league that last year's champion played in", meaning they didn't play a playoff game.
- 1896: Led the AHA in scoring with 10 goals. McKerrow, Victorias' Shirley Davidson, Dolly Swift, and Harry Westwick tied for 2nd with 8. During the season, the Vics lost the cup to winnipeg, 2-0, then won it back 6-5. MacDougall did not score in either game. Overall, it appears he was the marquee player on hockey's top team.
I recall last draft, I was using the cup photos to try to get a good idea of Mike Grant's dimensons for the guy who drafted him (it might have been the draft before that) and it turns out, the dimensions of the 1896 Vics are given!
lewis 5'9, 156
Henderson 6'0, 150
Grant 5'10, 170
MacDougall 5'7, 158
Drinkwater 5'11, 164
Davidson 5'6, 150
McLea 5'10, 149
1897: McDougall is 3rd in AHA scoring with 11 goals, behind McKerrow and Alf Smith, who tied with 12 apiece. Next best on the vice is Ernie McLea, who had 8. The Vics were crowned champs by beating a challenger from Ottawa with no notable players on it. According to The Trail: "they trounced them so badly in the first game that the balance of the series was abandoned. The game received so little attention that no information was published as to the goal scorers." Score: 14-2.
1898: The Vics led the AHA with an 8-0 record. Their offense was led by Cam Davidson (14 G, 1st in league), McDougall (12 G, 3rd in league) and Drinkwater (10 G, 5th in league) - The Vics were never called upon to defend the cup and played no playoff games.
1899: McDougall played only 2 games but scored 7 goals. that was still good for 7th in the CAHL. he was on pace for 28, much better than Trihey's 19, but of course it is unlikely he could continue that torrid pace. In the playoffs, he scored a crucial tying goal against Winnipeg which set up Drinkwater's dramatic winner. In game 2, he hacked Gingras which drew a 2-minute penalty, but Winnipeg said he should be out for the game or they would quit. The referee then quit and was coaxed back 75 minutes later. He gave Winnipeg 15 minutes to return - they didn 't. The game was awarded to Victorias. McDougall was the star by virtue of his 2 goals in the 3-2 win, and of course the hack that led to the default win. The Vics lost the cup the same way they originally won it - by surrendering it to the regular season champions of the CAHL - Harry Trihey's Shamrocks.
Based on all this, I find it really hard to determine why Graham Drinkwater should be selected in the 500s and McDougall down in the 1200s. They both appeared to have made the same contribution to this early dynasty. Drinkwater, of course, is in the HHOF, which should hopefully tell us he was truly great, but how much better than McDougall was he?
As for McDougall, here's what I can find:
- His name appears to definitely be McDougall and not MacDougall.
- 52 goals in 33 league games, 4 in 6 Cup Games.
- 1895: tied for 4th in the AHA with 10 goals in 8 games. N.Rankin had 11 and Haviland Routh had 19. Rankin and 9-goal Drinkwater were the basis of the Victorias offense, along with mcDougall. They won the cup in one of those cases of "they won the league that last year's champion played in", meaning they didn't play a playoff game.
- 1896: Led the AHA in scoring with 10 goals. McKerrow, Victorias' Shirley Davidson, Dolly Swift, and Harry Westwick tied for 2nd with 8. During the season, the Vics lost the cup to winnipeg, 2-0, then won it back 6-5. MacDougall did not score in either game. Overall, it appears he was the marquee player on hockey's top team.
I recall last draft, I was using the cup photos to try to get a good idea of Mike Grant's dimensons for the guy who drafted him (it might have been the draft before that) and it turns out, the dimensions of the 1896 Vics are given!
lewis 5'9, 156
Henderson 6'0, 150
Grant 5'10, 170
MacDougall 5'7, 158
Drinkwater 5'11, 164
Davidson 5'6, 150
McLea 5'10, 149
1897: McDougall is 3rd in AHA scoring with 11 goals, behind McKerrow and Alf Smith, who tied with 12 apiece. Next best on the vice is Ernie McLea, who had 8. The Vics were crowned champs by beating a challenger from Ottawa with no notable players on it. According to The Trail: "they trounced them so badly in the first game that the balance of the series was abandoned. The game received so little attention that no information was published as to the goal scorers." Score: 14-2.
1898: The Vics led the AHA with an 8-0 record. Their offense was led by Cam Davidson (14 G, 1st in league), McDougall (12 G, 3rd in league) and Drinkwater (10 G, 5th in league) - The Vics were never called upon to defend the cup and played no playoff games.
1899: McDougall played only 2 games but scored 7 goals. that was still good for 7th in the CAHL. he was on pace for 28, much better than Trihey's 19, but of course it is unlikely he could continue that torrid pace. In the playoffs, he scored a crucial tying goal against Winnipeg which set up Drinkwater's dramatic winner. In game 2, he hacked Gingras which drew a 2-minute penalty, but Winnipeg said he should be out for the game or they would quit. The referee then quit and was coaxed back 75 minutes later. He gave Winnipeg 15 minutes to return - they didn 't. The game was awarded to Victorias. McDougall was the star by virtue of his 2 goals in the 3-2 win, and of course the hack that led to the default win. The Vics lost the cup the same way they originally won it - by surrendering it to the regular season champions of the CAHL - Harry Trihey's Shamrocks.
Based on all this, I find it really hard to determine why Graham Drinkwater should be selected in the 500s and McDougall down in the 1200s. They both appeared to have made the same contribution to this early dynasty. Drinkwater, of course, is in the HHOF, which should hopefully tell us he was truly great, but how much better than McDougall was he?
It's really hard to find info on Bob Mcdougall and I was suprised that the ultimate hockey book didn't have a bio on him. I've also read an article somewhere a while back that said he should be in the hall of fame.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Votes are Due. Please PM them to me. I'd like the series winner, number of games, and three stars.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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