AAA11 Playoff Challenge: Toledo Walleye vs. Ottawa HC
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
- I'm pretty sure I said these were my two favourite checking lines in the draft.
- I think I like both Toledo goalies better than Turco, though I am open to an argument for why Turco is better than Fleury. Nicholson has to be considered the best goalie here. He's got the cups, the longevity, and he led his league in GAA numerous times. After Paton, he may have been the next great goalie. He might have actually accomplished more than Paton, to be honest!
- Ottawa, are you sure you don't want to swap Axelsson, a pure defensive specialist, with Libett, who will make a better energy guy? I think this improves your already excellent 3rd line's defensive ability, as well as your 4th line's toughness/energy level.
- I think I like both Toledo goalies better than Turco, though I am open to an argument for why Turco is better than Fleury. Nicholson has to be considered the best goalie here. He's got the cups, the longevity, and he led his league in GAA numerous times. After Paton, he may have been the next great goalie. He might have actually accomplished more than Paton, to be honest!
- Ottawa, are you sure you don't want to swap Axelsson, a pure defensive specialist, with Libett, who will make a better energy guy? I think this improves your already excellent 3rd line's defensive ability, as well as your 4th line's toughness/energy level.
I apologize for not getting anything up yet. First week back at school is kind of chaotic, so I haven't had time to write up an analysis.
When is voting?
When is voting?
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
I think Toledo has the edge in net. Billy Nicholson will likely start, but both goalies are strong options at the AAA level.
Nicholson (who had the early 1900's equivalent of an illegal chest protector
) was a Stanley Cup champion who pioneered dropping to ones knees to stop the puck. Hockey Notes refers to him as "surprisingly athletic, though, despite the constraints of his plus-sized frame. His career, while not of Hockey Hall of Fame caliber, compares favorably to the goaltending standard of his era."
Fleury won a Stanley Cup in a Game 7 situation and has a career playoff SV% of .916 (12th all time among goalies with 40+ career playoff games).
On Ottawa, Marty Turco is the definition of a streaky netminder. He has good playoffs (.952 SV% in 07, .922% in 08) and horrid playoffs (.849 SV% in 04, .868 SV% in 06). He's had strong regular seasons (.932 SV% in 03 (1st in league)) and bad ones (twice posting .898 SV%s (29th in 06, 41st in 09 ).
Alfie Moore's one game in 1938 is a tremendous story, but his career on a whole is unimpressive at the NHL level- only 21 games, going 7-14 with a 3.76 GAA. His credentials at lower levels make him a low-end backup at the AAA level, but nothing more.
Nicholson (who had the early 1900's equivalent of an illegal chest protector
) was a Stanley Cup champion who pioneered dropping to ones knees to stop the puck. Hockey Notes refers to him as "surprisingly athletic, though, despite the constraints of his plus-sized frame. His career, while not of Hockey Hall of Fame caliber, compares favorably to the goaltending standard of his era."Fleury won a Stanley Cup in a Game 7 situation and has a career playoff SV% of .916 (12th all time among goalies with 40+ career playoff games).
On Ottawa, Marty Turco is the definition of a streaky netminder. He has good playoffs (.952 SV% in 07, .922% in 08) and horrid playoffs (.849 SV% in 04, .868 SV% in 06). He's had strong regular seasons (.932 SV% in 03 (1st in league)) and bad ones (twice posting .898 SV%s (29th in 06, 41st in 09 ).
Alfie Moore's one game in 1938 is a tremendous story, but his career on a whole is unimpressive at the NHL level- only 21 games, going 7-14 with a 3.76 GAA. His credentials at lower levels make him a low-end backup at the AAA level, but nothing more.
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chaosrevolver
Snubbed Again
Axelsson and Libett switched.
Gingras scared? Okay. My 4th line RW is scared...darn..obvious loss now.
Turco streaky? Hmmm...8 years....6 of them dominant. One wasn't great but he had a fantastic record and last year the whole team stunk. Two times he has led the league in GAA and SV% and is probably the best puck handling goalie of this era. Want more? Let's see how he has done compared to his peers...let's not forget some of these names. Brodeur, Hasek, Luongo, Kipprusoff, etc..
Top-10 Finishes
Wins: 2003 (10th), 2004 (2nd), 2006 (3rd), 2007 (6th), 2009 (9th)
GAA: 2001 (1st), 2002 (3rd), 2003 (1st), 2004 (3rd), 2006 (8th), 2007 (4th), 2008 (9th)
SV%: 2001 (1st), 2002 (3rd), 2003 (1st)
Our top line brings the playmaking and fearlessness of Gradin and fuses that with the goal scoring ability of Tony Tanti and Mark Napier. Gradin was a fearless forward with incredible talent who also loved to dish it out. Napier can play a two-way game that will help solidify this line as a non-liability in their own end.
The second line won't be fine. Carl Liscombe is a very accomplished scorer who stepped up his game big time in the playoffs. Tim Young is a perfect linemate for Carl. Incredible skater and playmaker who was known to be a "wizard with the puck." Best part about Tim? He was also very good defensively. Zimin compliments these two very well as he has explosive speed and excellent finishing ability. He was often compared to Yvan Cournoyer and Guy Lafleur for those two very compliments.
The third line is well..good luck..that's all I've really got to say. Well..not really. P.J. Axelsson has been one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL for a long time. Known as a tenacious and hard-checking player..Axelsson will be a perfect compliment to two other guys. Terry Crisp is one of them. Crisp was the guy who checked the opposition's best players on the Broad Street Bullies teams. He is probably one of the best pure checkers in this draft. He won't bring much offensively..but that's not why we drafted him. On the other side is the guy who checked Maurice Richard successfully. Yeah..have fun trying to create room with these three on the ice.
As for the 4th line..it's a hard-working, fast, forechecking line that has some offensive ability. Tony Gingras fits that mold exactly. He's lightning quick..wiry..and a great puckhandler that should be tough to knock off the puck when in the other teams end. With Gingras are two players that can bring an offensive and defensive side to their game. Orest Kindrachuk had a 75 point season and two others over 60 points. Described as one of the most underrated players of the 1970's...he was known as a tenacious checker that could kill penalties with the best of them and was equally strong at both ends of the ice. On the other side is Nick Libett. Nick reached the 20 goal mark six times and Greg Gilbert went on to say that he cringed when having to be marked by Libett. Why? "Every time I played against him, I cringed, because I knew I wouldn't have any room and I was going to have a tough time." This line brings it all but really..it mostly adds another line that can play against Toledo's top-6. Neither line will give you much room to work with.
Our defense is one of the strongest in this draft. Jyrki Lumme was a fantastic offensive defenseman that although made errors...wasn't a huge liability in his own end. A tremendous puckhandler, Lumme reached the 50 point mark twice and the 40 point mark five times. He also has a respectable 44 points in 105 playoff games. And who is there to cover any mistakes he makes? None other than Reg Hamilton. He was known as a stay-at-home defenseman that punished opponents with lethal checks. The thing is..he still recorded a very respectable 108 points and led Toronto's defenseman in scoring twice.
Our second pairing is definitely going to be tough. Doug Lidster was a great two-way defenseman for years with Vancouver. He reached the 60 point mark once and had multiple seasons with 12 goals. His partner is a guy Evil Speaker thinks could be a top-4 defenseman in the MLD...Hugh Bolton. Bolton was a MASSIVE defenseman who has placed in the top-5 in Norris Voting. A stay-at-home defenseman who placed 6th and 9th in scoring as well. Great defenseman to pair Lidster up with.
As for the final pairing..well they are back together again. Stoltz and Bjorn were a dynamic duo. Both have been named best defender at a WC and were the go-to-pairing the time the Swedes beat the Soviets. Both were massive defenseman. Bjorn was a two-time swedish all-star and Stoltz was a 5-time. "Defenseman Stoltz played the best years of his hockey career alongside Lars Bjorn, and this famous defense duo was regarded as one of the best in the history of Swedish and European hockey."
Gingras scared? Okay. My 4th line RW is scared...darn..obvious loss now.
Turco streaky? Hmmm...8 years....6 of them dominant. One wasn't great but he had a fantastic record and last year the whole team stunk. Two times he has led the league in GAA and SV% and is probably the best puck handling goalie of this era. Want more? Let's see how he has done compared to his peers...let's not forget some of these names. Brodeur, Hasek, Luongo, Kipprusoff, etc..
Top-10 Finishes
Wins: 2003 (10th), 2004 (2nd), 2006 (3rd), 2007 (6th), 2009 (9th)
GAA: 2001 (1st), 2002 (3rd), 2003 (1st), 2004 (3rd), 2006 (8th), 2007 (4th), 2008 (9th)
SV%: 2001 (1st), 2002 (3rd), 2003 (1st)
Our top line brings the playmaking and fearlessness of Gradin and fuses that with the goal scoring ability of Tony Tanti and Mark Napier. Gradin was a fearless forward with incredible talent who also loved to dish it out. Napier can play a two-way game that will help solidify this line as a non-liability in their own end.
The second line won't be fine. Carl Liscombe is a very accomplished scorer who stepped up his game big time in the playoffs. Tim Young is a perfect linemate for Carl. Incredible skater and playmaker who was known to be a "wizard with the puck." Best part about Tim? He was also very good defensively. Zimin compliments these two very well as he has explosive speed and excellent finishing ability. He was often compared to Yvan Cournoyer and Guy Lafleur for those two very compliments.
The third line is well..good luck..that's all I've really got to say. Well..not really. P.J. Axelsson has been one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL for a long time. Known as a tenacious and hard-checking player..Axelsson will be a perfect compliment to two other guys. Terry Crisp is one of them. Crisp was the guy who checked the opposition's best players on the Broad Street Bullies teams. He is probably one of the best pure checkers in this draft. He won't bring much offensively..but that's not why we drafted him. On the other side is the guy who checked Maurice Richard successfully. Yeah..have fun trying to create room with these three on the ice.
As for the 4th line..it's a hard-working, fast, forechecking line that has some offensive ability. Tony Gingras fits that mold exactly. He's lightning quick..wiry..and a great puckhandler that should be tough to knock off the puck when in the other teams end. With Gingras are two players that can bring an offensive and defensive side to their game. Orest Kindrachuk had a 75 point season and two others over 60 points. Described as one of the most underrated players of the 1970's...he was known as a tenacious checker that could kill penalties with the best of them and was equally strong at both ends of the ice. On the other side is Nick Libett. Nick reached the 20 goal mark six times and Greg Gilbert went on to say that he cringed when having to be marked by Libett. Why? "Every time I played against him, I cringed, because I knew I wouldn't have any room and I was going to have a tough time." This line brings it all but really..it mostly adds another line that can play against Toledo's top-6. Neither line will give you much room to work with.
Our defense is one of the strongest in this draft. Jyrki Lumme was a fantastic offensive defenseman that although made errors...wasn't a huge liability in his own end. A tremendous puckhandler, Lumme reached the 50 point mark twice and the 40 point mark five times. He also has a respectable 44 points in 105 playoff games. And who is there to cover any mistakes he makes? None other than Reg Hamilton. He was known as a stay-at-home defenseman that punished opponents with lethal checks. The thing is..he still recorded a very respectable 108 points and led Toronto's defenseman in scoring twice.
Our second pairing is definitely going to be tough. Doug Lidster was a great two-way defenseman for years with Vancouver. He reached the 60 point mark once and had multiple seasons with 12 goals. His partner is a guy Evil Speaker thinks could be a top-4 defenseman in the MLD...Hugh Bolton. Bolton was a MASSIVE defenseman who has placed in the top-5 in Norris Voting. A stay-at-home defenseman who placed 6th and 9th in scoring as well. Great defenseman to pair Lidster up with.
As for the final pairing..well they are back together again. Stoltz and Bjorn were a dynamic duo. Both have been named best defender at a WC and were the go-to-pairing the time the Swedes beat the Soviets. Both were massive defenseman. Bjorn was a two-time swedish all-star and Stoltz was a 5-time. "Defenseman Stoltz played the best years of his hockey career alongside Lars Bjorn, and this famous defense duo was regarded as one of the best in the history of Swedish and European hockey."
The 01 and 02 stats aren't overly relevant because he was a backup those years (26 gms in 01 and 31 gms in 02). You can't be "dominant" as a backup. So really, he led the league in SV% and GAA once, not twice (and it was in 03, an injury shortened year). So he's had 6 years as a starter; one very good one, two good ones, and two bad ones.
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Ottawa will need the checking forwards as Toledo's goal potential is higher than Ottawa's.
Robert MacDougall may be the best player in the draft as he has a retro Hart, had an edge to his game and was one of the best players of his era (statistically, the leading goalscorer at the dawn of the 20th century). Dutch Reibel was three times in the top-10 in scoring. Ray Sheppard was twice in the top 5 in goal scoring (compared to Ottawa's top goal scorer, Tanti who's highest finished were 11th and 12th).
Ran McDonald and Bud Poile both made post-season all-star teams. McDonald provides grit and scoring with Poile finished as high as 5th in scoring once.
Dependable scorers Ray Whitney, Hib Milks, and Ron Duguay also contribute to Toledo's attack.
Of Ottawa's forwards, I think only two ever cracked the top 10 in scoring (Tim Young- 5th in scoring 76-77 and Carl Liscombe, 4th in scoring in 43-44)
Patrik Sundstrom and Thomas Gradin actually have very similar careers. Sundstrom had 219 g, 369a for 588 pts in 679 games while Gradin had 209g, 384a for 593 pts in 677 games. Sundstrom peaked at 23 in scoring while Gradin at 22nd. Gradin was a better player, but he's Ottawa's first line centre while Sundstrom is my third line centre. Sundstrom was also a solid defensive player, once finishing top 10 in Selke voting.
I see this series as being close featuring a lot of really good defensive hockey (the two best shut-down lines in the draft meet here. I don't really think one is demonstrably better than the other). On top of the Walleye's excellent checking line, Dutch Reibel (a good penalty killer who has tough, but clean) and Sundstrom are among those you can help out with defence to counter Ottawa's other defensive forwards.
Robert MacDougall may be the best player in the draft as he has a retro Hart, had an edge to his game and was one of the best players of his era (statistically, the leading goalscorer at the dawn of the 20th century). Dutch Reibel was three times in the top-10 in scoring. Ray Sheppard was twice in the top 5 in goal scoring (compared to Ottawa's top goal scorer, Tanti who's highest finished were 11th and 12th).
Ran McDonald and Bud Poile both made post-season all-star teams. McDonald provides grit and scoring with Poile finished as high as 5th in scoring once.
Dependable scorers Ray Whitney, Hib Milks, and Ron Duguay also contribute to Toledo's attack.
Of Ottawa's forwards, I think only two ever cracked the top 10 in scoring (Tim Young- 5th in scoring 76-77 and Carl Liscombe, 4th in scoring in 43-44)
Patrik Sundstrom and Thomas Gradin actually have very similar careers. Sundstrom had 219 g, 369a for 588 pts in 679 games while Gradin had 209g, 384a for 593 pts in 677 games. Sundstrom peaked at 23 in scoring while Gradin at 22nd. Gradin was a better player, but he's Ottawa's first line centre while Sundstrom is my third line centre. Sundstrom was also a solid defensive player, once finishing top 10 in Selke voting.
I see this series as being close featuring a lot of really good defensive hockey (the two best shut-down lines in the draft meet here. I don't really think one is demonstrably better than the other). On top of the Walleye's excellent checking line, Dutch Reibel (a good penalty killer who has tough, but clean) and Sundstrom are among those you can help out with defence to counter Ottawa's other defensive forwards.
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Looking at the defence I have to say I like both team's defence groups (I actually like pretty much all of the team's defence groups in this draft, even Dawson City's).
Tallon/Lumme - two offensive defenders. Lumme had better longevity, but not as high of peak (best 14th in defence scoring). Tallon finished 3rd in 71, 9th in 72, and 5th in 76.
Hamilton/Jarret - Defensive presences to protect their offensive minded partners. Both were physical, although Hamilton was dirtier than Jarret, so probably more imposing (although he'll also take more penalties). Hamilton also had the better offensive game.
Lidster/Siltanen - Siltanen was the better goal-scorer of the two, but they were pretty similar offensively as a whole, with Lidster actually peaking higher in defence scoring (7th as opposed to 10th). However despite Siltanen being smaller, I think he was harder to play against:
Lidster on the other hand:
Dewsbury/Bolton - Two large defenders for their times who were aggressive. Dewsbury was slightly better offensively, finishing 4 times in the top 10 (peak at 6th) compared to Bolton's two top 10 (peak at 7th). Bolton has injury concerns:
Bottom Pairing:
Overall I don't think they are as good as Stoltz and Bjorn, but in terms of a shut-down unit, they may be. Garth Boesch has been selected in ATD9 and ATD10 before falling to the AAA draft this time. While he probably went too high in the ATDs, he's good value here. He's a bit of a "what-if" as he cut his career short to go take over his family farm, but was a key factor in 3 cups and teamed with Barilko to form "The Maginot Line Knee Drop." Bouchard gives the Walleye a combined 8 Cup wins on the bottom pairing.
Kronwall/Krupp - Kronwall led a Stanley Cup Champion in backend scoring, is a member of the Triple Gold Club and is perhaps the most feared hitter of his time. Krupp was dependable and a useful part on a Stanley Cup Champion as well, but not to the extent Kronwall was.
Tallon/Lumme - two offensive defenders. Lumme had better longevity, but not as high of peak (best 14th in defence scoring). Tallon finished 3rd in 71, 9th in 72, and 5th in 76.
Hamilton/Jarret - Defensive presences to protect their offensive minded partners. Both were physical, although Hamilton was dirtier than Jarret, so probably more imposing (although he'll also take more penalties). Hamilton also had the better offensive game.
Lidster/Siltanen - Siltanen was the better goal-scorer of the two, but they were pretty similar offensively as a whole, with Lidster actually peaking higher in defence scoring (7th as opposed to 10th). However despite Siltanen being smaller, I think he was harder to play against:
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=14319
Lidster on the other hand:
http://canuckslegends.blogspot.com/2007/06/doug-lidster.html
Dewsbury/Bolton - Two large defenders for their times who were aggressive. Dewsbury was slightly better offensively, finishing 4 times in the top 10 (peak at 6th) compared to Bolton's two top 10 (peak at 7th). Bolton has injury concerns:
- Legends of Hockey:
Bottom Pairing:
Overall I don't think they are as good as Stoltz and Bjorn, but in terms of a shut-down unit, they may be. Garth Boesch has been selected in ATD9 and ATD10 before falling to the AAA draft this time. While he probably went too high in the ATDs, he's good value here. He's a bit of a "what-if" as he cut his career short to go take over his family farm, but was a key factor in 3 cups and teamed with Barilko to form "The Maginot Line Knee Drop." Bouchard gives the Walleye a combined 8 Cup wins on the bottom pairing.
- Legends of Hockey
Kronwall/Krupp - Kronwall led a Stanley Cup Champion in backend scoring, is a member of the Triple Gold Club and is perhaps the most feared hitter of his time. Krupp was dependable and a useful part on a Stanley Cup Champion as well, but not to the extent Kronwall was.
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
chaosrevolver
Snubbed Again
Good series. I'm content with the result considering I missed the entire first two rounds and had to make up 8 picks at the end. I think both Hedberg and I knew it'd be close.
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