AAA 2013 preliminary round: Pittsburgh vs. Greendale

[seventieslord]

Pittsburgh Yellow Jackets

Coach: Terry Crisp
Assistant Coach: Mike Buckna

Alex Kaleta - Jozef Stumpel - Glen Murray
Morris Lukowich - Guy Chouinard - Ran McDonald
Jochen Hecht - Ron Schock - Lucien DeBlois
Dan Maloney - Travis Zajac - Ryan Callahan
Jim Conacher, Ric Seiling

Stew Evans - Gord Murphy
Eric Brewer - Tom Bladon
Bob Trapp - Randy Manery
Bryan Watson

Gerry McNeil
Cesare Maniago

PP1
Kaleta-Stumpel-Murray
Chouinard-Bladon

PP2
Lukowich-Schock-McDonald
Murphy-Manery

PK1
Schock-Hecht
Evans-Brewer

PK2
Zajac-Callahan
Trapp-Murphy

1916 or earlier : McDonald, Trapp
1917-1942 : Kaleta, Evans
1943-1965 : McNeil, Maniago, Conacher, Watson
1966-1979 : Lukowich, Chouinard, Schock, DeBlois, Bladon, Manery, Seiling
1980-1994 : Murray, Stumpel, Murphy
1995-2004 : Hecht, Brewer
in 2013: Callahan, Zajac

VS.

Greendale Human Beings

Head Coach: Ivan Hlinka

Neal - Nylander(A) - Routh
Sheppard - J.Carson - Carter(A)
Arvedson- Migay - Goldsworthy
Irvine -Findlay- Mallen

Samsonov-Semonov-Beaudro


Fogolin Sr (C)- D.Mironov
Malakhov - B.Mironov
Snepsts - Subban
Staios

Quick
Simmons


PP:
1 Neal - Nylander - Routh
Subban - B.Mironov

2 Sheppard - Carson - Carter
D.Mironov-Malakov

PK:
1 Migay-Goldsworthy
Fogolin-D.Mironov

2 Findlay-Arvedson
Snepsts-B.Mironov

1916 or earlier : Haviland Routh, Ken Mallen. Roxy Beaudro, Jack Findlay
1917-1942 : Johnny Sheppard, Leory Goldsworthy
1943-1965 : Lee Fogolin Sr., Rudy Migay, Ted Irvine, Don Simmons
1966-1979 : Harold Snepsts D
1980-1994 : Michael Nylander, Jimmy Carson, Vladimir Malakhov, Boris Mironov, Dmitri Mironov, Magnus Arvedson, Sergei Samsonov, Anatoli Semonov
1995-2004 : Anson Carter, Steve Staios
Current : Pk Subban, Jonathan Quick, James Neal​

Click to read more...

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Looking forward to the series ResilientBeast. We have a pair of goalies who upped their game in the playoffs.

 

[seventieslord]

Beast, you deserved a better matchup than this.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

I'm gonna start with second lines so I can get Routh's stats later.

Jimmy Carson
Point finishes: 8, 9, 24
Goal finishes: 3, 7

32 points in 55 playoff games played

Guy Chouinard
Point finishes: 6, 25
Goal finishes: 4
Assist finishes: 9, 10

37 points in 46 playoff games played

Carson gets the advantage here, I think he's Greendale's best center. He made my all-star voting for scoring centers. Chouinard doesn't stand out as an elite second liner, it's PP game that makes him special which should only be accounted for when looking at PP units.

Johnny Sheppard
Points: 15, 18
Assists: 7, 8

0 points in 10 NHL playoff games
1 point in 4 WCHL playoff games
0 points in 1 Stanley Cup game (while with WCHL team against NHL)

Morris Lukowich
WHA Points: 6 (1979)
WHA Goals: 2 (1979), 9 (1978)
1x WHA 2nd All-Star Team (1979)

NHL Points: 18 (1982)
NHL Goals: 17 (1982)

2 points in 11 NHL playoff games
28 points in 27 WHA playoff games
4th in 1979 WHA playoff scoring

The physical but undersized members of our lines. I had Wee Johnny in my first draft too and being a playmaker his overall scoring may be underrated by his era. He's a nice fit for Carson's goalscoring. Overall, I think Lukowich gets the advantage though. He had an excellent season in the WHA making the 2nd All-Star team behind Mark Howe. He made a pair of all-star games in the NHL and had a 40 goal season and three more 30 goal years. Sheppard wasn't notable in the WCHL and didn't much offensively outside of those two top 10 assist seasons.

Anson Carter
two 60 point seasons
one 50 point season

13 points in 24 playoff games

Ran McDonald
PCHA Goals: 3rd (1913), 3rd (1915), 6th (1914) 8th (1912)
PCHA All-Star in 1912, 1913, 1914*, PCHA Second All-Star 1916
*listed in the retroactive award thread with the note it was from Total Hockey, but not Trail

2 goals in 4 playoff games

Carter's really kind of a tough sell for a top sixer here. He never cracked the top 30 in points. McDonald was briefly a star in the PCHA. Si Griffis said his rushing and shooting skills were the best in the league. His scoring dropped off eventually and he shifted around a lot playing every position but goalie. Carter would probably be best served as a spare and Ran seems a good piece for a second line after I found a bit more about him.

Overall I think Pittsburgh has the advantage on second lines. Carson's the best player here, but Carter drags the line down. Chouinard is a solid second liner compared to other centers, but I think Lukowich and McDonald look pretty good.

 

[seventieslord]

It's a shame about Anson Carter, because Greendale could have actually taken the 2nd line matchup with an above average RW.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Michael Nylander
Points: 21, 27
34 points in 47 playoff games

Jozef Stumpel
Points: 10, 27
Assists: 4, 5
30 points in 55 playoff games

Pretty clear advantage for Stumpel here. Nylander's two top 30 seasons came playing with Jagr. Stumpel led the Kings in scoring during his 10th place finish with 79 points. Glen Murray had 60 points for second on the team and Vladimir Tsyplakov was third with 52.

Haviland Routh
Scoring/Goal Finishes: 1, 1, 3
0 points in 1 AHAC playoff game
2 goals in 2 Stanley Cup playoff games

Breaking down his seasons
1893: He scored 12 goals in 7 games for 1st place ahead of Dolly Swift and R. Bradley who had 11 each in 8 games.

1894: He scored 8 goals in 8 games for 3rd place behind Herbert Russell and Dolly Swift who each had 10.
He scored 5 goals in a game against Quebec who were part of a fourth place tie for 1st place. Quebec eventually withdrew themselves from a playoff between the four 5-3 teams after a dispute over where the games should be played.
Montreal played the Victorias in a playoff to determine the team who would face Ottawa for the Stanley Cup. Routh was scoreless in Montreal's 3-2 win, but Trail mentions Routh and Billy Barlow were the stars of the game.
Montreal defeated Ottawa 3-1 to win the Stanley Cup and Routh was scoreless with no notes about the stars of the game in Trail.

1895: He scored 19 goals in 8 games for 1st place ahead of Norm Rankin who scored 11. Dolly Swift, Robert McDougall, and Herbert Russell each scored 10.
Montreal finished second in the league, but due to a scheduling issue competed against Queen's University for the Stanley Cup. Routh led his team in scoring with 2 goals in a 5-1 victory over Queen's University. The catch was that by winning they had to hand the trophy over to the Victorias who won the AHAC.

This was the end of Routh's career outside of a single scoreless game in 1897.

Glen Murray
Points: 7, 17
Goals: 2, 5
42 points in 94 playoff games


Routh made the bottom half of my top scoring wingers in all-star voting and I think he's a solid player. I think Murray has a case for the best winger in the draft though. It's tough comparing him to Routh with difference in leagues, but I think he has a clear advantage. Murray was an inconsistent physical player, but I don't know of any of Routh's intangibles.

James Neal
Points: 7
Goals: 4, 10
18 points in 25 playoff games

Alex Kaleta
Points: 9, 16
Assists: 4
7 points in 17 playoff games

Kaleta has more top 20 finishes than Neal. Neal's the better goal scorer and never dipped below 20 goals in his career. Kaleta was something of a checking player, and Neal brings a physical game. Some people seem to be skeptical of Neal's 40 goal season, but I think he's a good example of the complementary players who find a home in this level of the draft. Neal's the same player who scored 40 with Malkin and scored 1 in 20 games with Mark Letestu and a washed up Kovalev. Neal's not great at creating his own offense or 1-on-1, but he has an absolutely lethal shot with an incredibly quick release. The game against Boston a week ago is a great example of what you get with Neal. The Penguins were getting destroyed and unable to create anything, but Neal ripped two of those shots with the slightest bit of time and space and made the score look much closer than the game actually was led the charge for a comeback (before an OT loss). I think Kaleta may get an edge over Neal because of the different in point finishes, but with Nylander carrying the puck and dishing it off Neal will be a great complement to Greendale's line.

Overall, I think Pittsburgh's line is superior. Stumpel and Murray have advantages over their counterparts and Kaleta had better point finishes than Neal.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

I mentioned before that after reading what the scouting reports said about the Mironov's I'd prefer to give Boris the bigger even-strength role than Dmitri. Here's what I read.
Dmitri

Mironov reminds us of Kjell Samuelsson because he is tall, uses his arms and his reach and seems simply to collapse on top of a player like a giant octopus, rending him useless and frustrated. He isn't much of a hitter, but Mironov nullifies very well by getting a piece of his man with the stick or with a hug, or by leaning on his man.

Mironov has a long reach and is big, but he plays very soft and doesn't use either to his best advantage. He didn't have the numbers last season to compensate for his lack of involvement.

1995-96 repeats the 1993-94 report

Mironov is especially tentative in his own end. He has to play with a real rock of a defenseman as his partner, because he is high-risk and can be beaten one-one-one.

(repeats quote about not using reach and size). He gives up easily on plays in his own end. He likes to step up and challenge in the neutral zone, but doesn't take the body well and often lets the opponent get by him.

He is running out of options, since he doesn't produce well enough to be a strictly on-way defenseman. If Mironov scored 55 or 60 points, a team could live with his flaws.

The consistency that has been eluding Mironov was finally in evidence last season after his trade to Anaheim.

Mironov can be a bit of a risk factor in his own end. (repeats he can be beat one-on-one)

(repeats size and reach, giving up on plays in own end, stepping up at blueline and often missing)

In last year's HSR we said, "If Mironov scored 55 or 60 points, a team could live with his flaws." Mironov finally made the step up offensively, and needs to make a similar commitment defensively.

(repeats risk factor in own end, can be beaten one-on-one)He did not thrive after joining Red Wings, who have a system that requires its defenseman to play hard in every inch of the ice. In the latter stages of the playoffs, he was benched in favor of the youngster Anders Eriksson.

(repeats size and reach, giving up on plays in own end, stepping up at blueline and often missing)

Mironov's work ethic (or lack thereof) led to his quick departure from Detroit. Washington lost Phil Housley on waivers to make room for Mironov.

Mironov's offensive contributions don't always compensate for his defensive shortcomings. He could be well-spotted in Washington and his top side is 50 points.

(repeats risk factor, can be beaten one-on-one) He has to learn to play as hard in his own zone as he likes to do in the attacking zone.
(repeats size and reach, giving up on plays in own end, stepping up at blueline and often missing)
(repeats questionable work ethic, offensive contributions don't always compensate for defensive shortcomings)

Dmitri was compared to Kjell Samuelsson his first season, but after that they repeated the same criticisms of his defensive game.

Boris
1995-96
Mironov is basically a stay-at-home defenseman, but he has the talent to get involved offensively when he wants to...Mironov tends to give up on his checks, and he doesn't always read plays coming at him well, so he gets beaten wide by lesser skaters. He doesn't see much time on the penalty-killing unit because of some of his defensive deficiencies.

He isn't a thumper, but he's strong and he eliminates people. He has been compared to Viacheslav Fetisov, and although he will probably never be a checker who puts his victims into the mezzanine, we would like to see him play more to his size.
1996-97
repeats those same two paragraphs

1997-98
(repeats basically a stay-at-home defenseman)
Mironov has improved his defensive play to the stage where he was part of the top defensive pairing (along with Luke Richardson) against other teams' top lines. (repeats giving up on checkers and getting beaten wide)
(repeats quote about his hitting, eliminates people but could hit harder)

1998-99
Now that he feels more comfortable, his fine skills have added an offensive dimension to defensive game.
(repeats how he's improved defensive play to play on top pair against opposition's top line with Hamrlik this time)
He has made the game easier by allowing the play to come to him instead of trying to make too many things happen by himself.
He isn't a thumper, but he's strong and eliminates people. He can and does handle a lot of minutes (around 28 per night).
Mironov has a desire to improve and to earn recognition for his game. In the last two seasons, he has been playing with emotion and a sense of purpose.

2000
(repeats improved defensive play to be part of top pair against opposition's top lines)
(repeats Mironov made the game easier by letting the play come to him)
(repeats that he eliminates people and can handle 28 minutes a night)
Boris was criticized early in his career for similar things that were said about Dmitri's defensive game. The difference seems to be that Boris worked to correct some of these flaws and became a defenseman his coaches could trust to play against top line players.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

I don't want to seem like I'm missing the point of these offensive defenseman, but Dmitri's being asked to play on a top pair and Greendale's second pair has two offensive-minded guys. To be fair, here's what I read about the defensive game of my top two offensive guys.

Gord Murphy
Hockey Scouting Report 1990-1991
Despite his lean build - there's not a lot of muscle on his frame - Murphy is pretty tough in front of his own net...He is unafraid of the opposition and will go into the corners with anyone.

Hockey Scouting Report 1991-92
Beyond that, Murphy uses his stick, reach and instincts well. It may look as though an opponent has beaten him wide, but Murphy will angle the player to bad ice or dive effectively to poke the puck away.

For a 205-pound player, Murphy is not especially enthusiastic about making the most of his size. He gets in people's way, he's strong enough to get by, but he is not a force in the strength aspect.

Hockey Scouting Report 1993-94
Murphy does a lot of little things nicely, but never consistently or forcefully enough to be much of a presence as an NHL defenseman. He also carries the puck well, although he gets into trouble when he overhandles it in his own zone.

Murphy uses his finesse skills to defend. His long reach makes him an effective poke-checker, and he would rather wrap his arms around an attack than move him out of the crease with a solid hit. He's more of a pusher than hitter.

He was never a tough sort to begin with, and an ugly incident during the 1990-91 season took much of the heart out of him. Murphy was racing to touch down a puck for an icing, when he was hit from behind with a high check by Dale Hunter. Hunter received a four game suspension. Murphy was knocked unconscious and taken off the ice on a stretcher, and hasn't been the same player after.

Hockey Scouting Report 1995-96
The Physical Game
He is responsible defensively and is used to kill penalties. He logged a lot of ice time and held up well under the grind.

The Intangibles
Murphy is not, and will never be, a tough customer, but he has improved his positional play and can step up and provide some offensive spark. He is most effective with a physical, stay-at-home partner.

Hockey Scouting Report 1996-97
The development of rookie Robert Svehla took much of the offensive responsibility away from Murphy, who has concentrated on becoming a better defensive player. Murphy uses his finesse skills in a two-way role. Murphy plays a smart positional game and makes intelligent defensive reads.

He is best with a physical, stay-at-home partner, but he can also be paired with a mobile defenseman and stay back for the defensive work himself.

Hockey Scouting Report 1998-99
He is patient with the puck along the blueline, sliding laterally until he spots the open lane. Murphy plays a smart positional game and makes intelligent defensive reads. He doesn't get suckered into pulling out of his position. He makes a steady, reliable partner for a more offensive-minded or inexperienced player.

Murphy wasn't physical throughout his career, and seemed to take a step back early in his career after his success in Philly. But he was generally reliable defensively and near the end of his career could be used to play with an offensive guy.


I don't have scouting reports on Bladon, but we can see he wasn't very good defensively bouncing out of the league by age 28.

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - 2/3/1979
Defenseman Tom Bladon has not panned out the way everyone expected, either. Bladon's plus-minus figure has been woeful most of the season and his work on the power play has not been up to snuff. A better-than-average goal-scoring defenseman during his career, Bladon seems reluctant to shoot, even on the power play. He's capable of extraordinary play at times, but Coach John Wilson and General Manager Baz Bastien want more consistency.

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - 11/9/1979
Faubert has moved into a spot in the lineup formerly occupied by Tom Bladon, who was benched against the Canadiens. Bladon has duplicated his horrid start of a year ago.

The Pittsburgh Press - 11/29/1979
And there was Tom Bladon, who has had his problems this year. He entered the contest with a minus-6 defensive rating and just one assist in 16 games, having sat out three of them.

Observer-Reporter - 7/12/1980
But after two lackluster years in a Penguin uniform - and an especially poor year in 1979-80 - Bladon will join the Oilers, one of the four World Hockey Association teams that joined the NHL in last year's expansion.

Bladon, who is best remembered for setting an NHL record by scoring four goals and four assists for the Flyers in a game on December 11, 1977, was not the answer to the Penguins perennial defensive problems.

He only played with the Oilers for one game. He then played 9 games with Winnipeg before being released after refusing a demotion to the AHL. He then signed with Detroit, but only lasted 2 games in the NHL before being sent to the AHL where he accepted his demotion. I found an article saying he played well for the Wings in the playoffs and thought he had finally turned a corner after such a sharp drop since he left Philly...but it was the Adirondack Red Wings.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Pittsburgh defeats Greendale in 6 games

Three Stars:

1. Gerry McNeil
2. Morris Lukowich
3. Haviland Routh

 

[VanIslander]

Pittsburgh defeats Greendale in 6 games

Three Stars:

1. Gerry McNeil
2. Morris Lukowich
3. Haviland Routh

McNeil has a Stanley Cup and three other Finals series experience that has served his team well here.

Lukowich is a tough competitor who is hard to play against every shift, has played in two NHL all-star games and was instrumental in a WHA championship.

Routh has back-to-back Stanley Cup championship experience that apparently has led his team here.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Pittsburgh defeats Greendale in 6 games

Three Stars:

1. Gerry McNeil
2. Morris Lukowich
3. Haviland Routh

Did about as well as I thought I would.

 

[seventieslord]

Good work, ResilientBeast. I maintain that you deserved better. But no matter, a finals run was not in the cards and pretty much everyone takes their lumps the first couple of times.

Well, Rob Scuderi didn't....

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Yeah nice showing Beast, I hope you join up in the AA draft.