AAA 2011 Ambrose O'Brien semi-finals: #1 Quad City Mallards vs. #4 Garnish Pride
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Rob Scuderi
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- Sep 3, 2009
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Congrats Tony on the close series with Reen. All of these O'Brien division teams came out really strong and this should be another good series.
Coach: Mike Buckna
Assistant Coach: Glen Sonmor
Johnny Sheppard(A) - Mike Walton - Wayne Connelly
Dutch Gainor - Viktor Yakushev(C) - Darcy Rota
Killer Kaleta - Larry Popein - Gerry Couture
Doug Smail - Andre Savard - David Backes
Paul Ranheim - Stanislav Petukhov
Al Dewsbury(A) - Don Sweeney
Harold Snepsts - Dmitri Mironov
Poul Popiel - Boris Mironov
Sean O'Donnell
Mike Palmateer
Andy Aitkenhead
Mallards Special teams:
PP1: Gainor-Walton-Connelly-Popiel-D. Mironov
PP2: Sheppard-Yakushev-Rota-Dewsbury-B. Mironov
PK1: Savard-Smail-Dewsbury-Sweeney
PK2: Popein-Backes-Snepsts-B. Mironov
Coach: Mike Buckna
Assistant Coach: Glen Sonmor
Johnny Sheppard(A) - Mike Walton - Wayne Connelly
Dutch Gainor - Viktor Yakushev(C) - Darcy Rota
Killer Kaleta - Larry Popein - Gerry Couture
Doug Smail - Andre Savard - David Backes
Paul Ranheim - Stanislav Petukhov
Al Dewsbury(A) - Don Sweeney
Harold Snepsts - Dmitri Mironov
Poul Popiel - Boris Mironov
Sean O'Donnell
Mike Palmateer
Andy Aitkenhead
Mallards Special teams:
PP1: Gainor-Walton-Connelly-Popiel-D. Mironov
PP2: Sheppard-Yakushev-Rota-Dewsbury-B. Mironov
PK1: Savard-Smail-Dewsbury-Sweeney
PK2: Popein-Backes-Snepsts-B. Mironov
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Rob Scuderi
Registered User
- Sep 3, 2009
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I'll offer a few thoughts about my team to start.
-1st line built around NHL/WHA scoring star Mike Walton. Walton had more goals than assists 3 times and is a threat whether he's passing or shooting. I teamed him up with speedy former teammate Wayne Connelly. Connelly and Walton both had their greatest success in the WHA as teammates in Minnesota and they bring immediate chemistry. The only concern here is whether 'Wee Johnny' Sheppard will be too limited by his 5''7' frame to contribute effectively as a physical presence for this line. Sheppard was tenacious leading the Wings in goals, assists, and PIMs and bringing that physical play. This line has three up-tempo players that should do well with one another.
-My second line has more of a two-way presence than the first. Led by my captain Yakushev, this line will be comfortable playing in any zone on the ice. Yakushev liked to work closely with linemates in workouts throughout the season and was known for his ability to mesh with any teammates. Rota was a gritty goal-scorer who could play at both ends of the ice and Gainor will have a lot offensive freedom playing with these two defensively conscience linemates and look at what Ching Johnson had to say about him in my bio if you doubt his offensive talent.
-My third line is probably my most balanced line. Kaleta was a speedy playmaker, Couture a big-body who could put the puck in the net, and Popein the 'scoreless pivot'. All of these players played primarily defensive roles in their career, but still had a few seasons of good offensive success when they weren't relegated to solely defensive roles. This line will match up against opposing scorers and has enough firepower to put up some points themselves in the process.
-My 4th line is another defensively responsible line that can counterattack. I mean how many other 4th lines have three 30 goal-scorers who still fit the 4th line role fine? Smail is a speedy PK ace with good defensive acumen, Savard was a fine two-way center behind Perrault in BUF and also made his name with defensive play, and then Backes who brings the same elements plus the physicality.
Overall my forward group is one that Buckna should be pleased to work with. He liked to play an offensive game with skill on display and constant forechecking. I think I did a decent job assembling a group that can live up to those ideals. They all have enough ability to make the plays Buckna wants and he should have no trouble leading these really talented forwards.
I'm just gonna keep editing this as I write up my thoughts by positions.
Overall my defensive group has a nice balance of puckmovers and stay-at-home guys with the biggest asset being grit coming from each player. Popiel played as a forward for Houston in the playoffs when they needed to get tougher up front and despite my initial thoughts was not a soft defender. The Mironovs are known for the physical play, albeit at time inconsistent. Coach Sonmor will have to make sure that the Mironovs, particularly his pet project Dmitri, are prepared to play a physical game each night much like had to do with his North Stars squads. Should he succeed my defensive corp will boast six tough defenders that will make live difficult for opposing forwards, particularly Snepsts and Dewsbury.
-Dewsbury is a two-way force that headlines my group. He was massive in his day and known for his nasty physical play, but he will have freedom to play an offensive game with partner Don Sweeney. Sweeney is used to logging top pairing minutes, often paired Ray Bourque in Boston, and is a smart simple defensive defender who knows how to compliment an offensive partner and log minutes on the PK.
-Snepsts made two-all star games despite being described as a poor skater and lacking offensive ability. He is a punishing defender who will make life miserable for Garnish's forwards. I felt he needed to be paired with a good skater who could move the puck, since Snepsts struggles with both, and Dmitri Mironov fits this bill perfectly. He'll help bail Snepsts out when he has the puck on his stick and help get the puck up the ice to my talented forwards. Mironov will also log top PP time, something he did effectively in his career. My only concern with this pairing is that both Mironov and Snepsts were a bit gaffe-prone at times.
-Popiel will play on top PP and my bottom pair with Boris Mironov. Popiel struggled getting playing time in the NHL before joining the WHA where he had a lot of success with some Houston teams boasting the Howe family. Popiel plays with grit and had a lot of offensive success in the WHA, finishing third career for points by a defenseman, and boasted some gaudy team-leading +/- numbers. Boris Mironov is similar to his brother just with more defensive emphasis, but he's still seeing second PP unit minutes. He and Popiel can both play a solid game in all three zones.
As I said I believe all six of my defenders play a physical game and I don't think my group really has a 'top-heavy' look so I plan to play my second and third pairings similarly depending on the situation. The Mallards shouldn't have a sparingly used defender in games we're competing. Snepsts may not get much time when we're trailing in the third but other than that this is a group my team should be able to rely on in all situations.
-1st line built around NHL/WHA scoring star Mike Walton. Walton had more goals than assists 3 times and is a threat whether he's passing or shooting. I teamed him up with speedy former teammate Wayne Connelly. Connelly and Walton both had their greatest success in the WHA as teammates in Minnesota and they bring immediate chemistry. The only concern here is whether 'Wee Johnny' Sheppard will be too limited by his 5''7' frame to contribute effectively as a physical presence for this line. Sheppard was tenacious leading the Wings in goals, assists, and PIMs and bringing that physical play. This line has three up-tempo players that should do well with one another.
-My second line has more of a two-way presence than the first. Led by my captain Yakushev, this line will be comfortable playing in any zone on the ice. Yakushev liked to work closely with linemates in workouts throughout the season and was known for his ability to mesh with any teammates. Rota was a gritty goal-scorer who could play at both ends of the ice and Gainor will have a lot offensive freedom playing with these two defensively conscience linemates and look at what Ching Johnson had to say about him in my bio if you doubt his offensive talent.
-My third line is probably my most balanced line. Kaleta was a speedy playmaker, Couture a big-body who could put the puck in the net, and Popein the 'scoreless pivot'. All of these players played primarily defensive roles in their career, but still had a few seasons of good offensive success when they weren't relegated to solely defensive roles. This line will match up against opposing scorers and has enough firepower to put up some points themselves in the process.
-My 4th line is another defensively responsible line that can counterattack. I mean how many other 4th lines have three 30 goal-scorers who still fit the 4th line role fine? Smail is a speedy PK ace with good defensive acumen, Savard was a fine two-way center behind Perrault in BUF and also made his name with defensive play, and then Backes who brings the same elements plus the physicality.
Overall my forward group is one that Buckna should be pleased to work with. He liked to play an offensive game with skill on display and constant forechecking. I think I did a decent job assembling a group that can live up to those ideals. They all have enough ability to make the plays Buckna wants and he should have no trouble leading these really talented forwards.
I'm just gonna keep editing this as I write up my thoughts by positions.
Overall my defensive group has a nice balance of puckmovers and stay-at-home guys with the biggest asset being grit coming from each player. Popiel played as a forward for Houston in the playoffs when they needed to get tougher up front and despite my initial thoughts was not a soft defender. The Mironovs are known for the physical play, albeit at time inconsistent. Coach Sonmor will have to make sure that the Mironovs, particularly his pet project Dmitri, are prepared to play a physical game each night much like had to do with his North Stars squads. Should he succeed my defensive corp will boast six tough defenders that will make live difficult for opposing forwards, particularly Snepsts and Dewsbury.
-Dewsbury is a two-way force that headlines my group. He was massive in his day and known for his nasty physical play, but he will have freedom to play an offensive game with partner Don Sweeney. Sweeney is used to logging top pairing minutes, often paired Ray Bourque in Boston, and is a smart simple defensive defender who knows how to compliment an offensive partner and log minutes on the PK.
-Snepsts made two-all star games despite being described as a poor skater and lacking offensive ability. He is a punishing defender who will make life miserable for Garnish's forwards. I felt he needed to be paired with a good skater who could move the puck, since Snepsts struggles with both, and Dmitri Mironov fits this bill perfectly. He'll help bail Snepsts out when he has the puck on his stick and help get the puck up the ice to my talented forwards. Mironov will also log top PP time, something he did effectively in his career. My only concern with this pairing is that both Mironov and Snepsts were a bit gaffe-prone at times.
-Popiel will play on top PP and my bottom pair with Boris Mironov. Popiel struggled getting playing time in the NHL before joining the WHA where he had a lot of success with some Houston teams boasting the Howe family. Popiel plays with grit and had a lot of offensive success in the WHA, finishing third career for points by a defenseman, and boasted some gaudy team-leading +/- numbers. Boris Mironov is similar to his brother just with more defensive emphasis, but he's still seeing second PP unit minutes. He and Popiel can both play a solid game in all three zones.
As I said I believe all six of my defenders play a physical game and I don't think my group really has a 'top-heavy' look so I plan to play my second and third pairings similarly depending on the situation. The Mallards shouldn't have a sparingly used defender in games we're competing. Snepsts may not get much time when we're trailing in the third but other than that this is a group my team should be able to rely on in all situations.
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tony d
Registered User
Congrats to Bring Back Scuderi as well, looking forward to a well debated series.
The Garnish Power Play:
PP 1: Yevgeny Mishakov, Christian Bordelau, Donald Audette, Pekka Marjamaki, Keith Brown
PP 2: Sylvain Turgeon, Greg Malone, JP Dumont, Jeff Norton, Rick Lapointe
The Garnish Penalty Killing Units:
PK 1: Dave Hunter, Yanic Perrault, Tom Reid, Keith Brown
Pk 2: Brent Gilchrist, Ron Wilson, Rick Lapointe, Randy Ladouceur
The Garnish Power Play:
PP 1: Yevgeny Mishakov, Christian Bordelau, Donald Audette, Pekka Marjamaki, Keith Brown
PP 2: Sylvain Turgeon, Greg Malone, JP Dumont, Jeff Norton, Rick Lapointe
The Garnish Penalty Killing Units:
PK 1: Dave Hunter, Yanic Perrault, Tom Reid, Keith Brown
Pk 2: Brent Gilchrist, Ron Wilson, Rick Lapointe, Randy Ladouceur
tony d
Registered User
My forward lines:
Line 1: In the preliminary round Mishakov's 1st line capabilities where questioned. I think he should be fine. He was a good goal scorer, always playing full out. The fact he played on a checking line should show that he is willing to get dirty which is always nice in all your players. Christian Bordelau's great playmaking abilities should serve him well here, I think him and Mishakov should be a great scoring pair. Glenn Brydson brings grit and had some decent goal scoring seasons back in the day. I like this line a lot.
Line 2: If you want to talk about grit you talk about Dave Hunter, in the past he was assigned the role of covering team's top offensive stars. I like for him to do that here. Greg Malone gives my team another good playmaking centre. Donald Audette of course is the goal scorer of the line, he scored 30 goals twice in his career.
Line 3: Perhaps my favourite of my 4 lines, Sylvan Turgeon adds great goal scoring ability to my bottom 6, twice scoring 40 goals. Yanic Perreault is known for winning faceoffs of course but he also scored 20 goals 7 times. JP Dumont was a good playmaking winger, I'll have this line out late in games to try to win a game.
Line 4: This line is all defensive, it doesn't have the offensive abilities of the Mallards' 4th line but it's a line I'd hate to have to play against, Gilchrist, Wilson, and Collins are all notable tremendous defensive forwards. It's a well constructed line.
Overall I like my forward group a lot, it mixes offense with defense, it's going to be a tough offense to play against.
Line 1: In the preliminary round Mishakov's 1st line capabilities where questioned. I think he should be fine. He was a good goal scorer, always playing full out. The fact he played on a checking line should show that he is willing to get dirty which is always nice in all your players. Christian Bordelau's great playmaking abilities should serve him well here, I think him and Mishakov should be a great scoring pair. Glenn Brydson brings grit and had some decent goal scoring seasons back in the day. I like this line a lot.
Line 2: If you want to talk about grit you talk about Dave Hunter, in the past he was assigned the role of covering team's top offensive stars. I like for him to do that here. Greg Malone gives my team another good playmaking centre. Donald Audette of course is the goal scorer of the line, he scored 30 goals twice in his career.
Line 3: Perhaps my favourite of my 4 lines, Sylvan Turgeon adds great goal scoring ability to my bottom 6, twice scoring 40 goals. Yanic Perreault is known for winning faceoffs of course but he also scored 20 goals 7 times. JP Dumont was a good playmaking winger, I'll have this line out late in games to try to win a game.
Line 4: This line is all defensive, it doesn't have the offensive abilities of the Mallards' 4th line but it's a line I'd hate to have to play against, Gilchrist, Wilson, and Collins are all notable tremendous defensive forwards. It's a well constructed line.
Overall I like my forward group a lot, it mixes offense with defense, it's going to be a tough offense to play against.
Rob Scuderi
Registered User
- Sep 3, 2009
- 3,378
- 2
The Top Lines
Mike Walton vs. Christian Bordeleau
Overlap between these two makes comparison pretty straightforward.
Bordeleau- 205 NHL GP 103 pts (.50 PPG)
412 WHA GP 504 pts (1.22 PPG)
Walton- 588 NHL GP 488 pts (.76 PPG)
211 WHA GP 281 pts (1.33PPG)
Bordeleau was considered too small for the NHL and only had one successful NHL season eclipsing 20 goals and 50 points. Walton did this three times throughout his NHL career, which doubles Bordeleau's, and there's a clear difference between their resumes.
Even if we ignore their NHL careers, despite Bordeleau's longer career with more points in the WHA, Walton's shorter WHA career was more distinguished. Walton is a member of the WHA HOF, Bordeleau is not; Walton has one 2nd AST appearance and one WHA scoring title, Bordeleau never made a WHA all-star team nor won any trophies. He did however win the Avco Cup once and SC one, Walton won the SC twice but never the WHA finals.
Walton has a clear advantage over Bordeleau from the same era and I believe my punishing defenders will make life particularly difficult for the diminutive pivot who leads the Pride's attack.
Let's look at our 'glue guys' next which are relatively close in overlapping.
Johnny Sheppard and Glenn Brydson
Brydson- 299 NHL GP 135 PTS (.45PPG)
Sheppard- 308 NHL GP 126 PTS (.41PPG)
Brydson is described as the better two-way forward and really effective in the corners. These two players are pretty even but without the same size challenges Sheppard faces Brydson will have an easier time in this role than Sheppard. Sheppard has two top 10 assist finishes however and I think he was probably the better scorer than Brydson.
Mishakov vs Connelly
I have a hard time knowing what to make of Mishakov. Pelletier chalks him up to a nice amount of goals throughout his Soviet international career but that's as much as I understand. He didn't make all-star teams for the Soviet league, he didn't make any directorate's choice ASTs during his international career either. His most notable contributions seem to be his grittiness and toughness, but I believe that's why you have Brydson. Connelly's scoring record is documented by a few excellent WHA seasons and one NHL season which saw him 4th in goals.
Mishakov seems to have some nice goal-scoring totals, assuming Pelletier's 48gs in 91GP is accurate, but does this really hold up the same compared to a few top 10 WHA finishes and one in the NHL?
I think Walton is the best player in this series and he and Connelly are each a clear step above their counterparts in Bourdeleau and Mishakov. Brydson and Mishakov provide a more physical presence to Garnish's top line but I believe that is the only favorable difference between it and Quad City's.
Second Lines
Gainor-Yakushev-Rota
Hunter-Malone-Audette
My first thing I notice when looking at this is Dave Hunter's presence in Garnish's top six. With the reasoning of providing a defensive presence this line features a player who never reached 50 points. On my end, Darcy Rota is on my line to provide a gritty, two-way presence. He can fill the role Hunter does, but with much greater offensive ability scoring twenty goals nine times to Hunter's one.
Viktor Yakushev and Greg Malone are both solid two-way centers. It's difficult to compare their very different career paths so it's just worth noting they both contribute to their lines effectively. Malone posted some solid numbers over the course of his NHL career and Yakushev was quite distinguished for his day with numerous Soviet All-star selections and a WC all-star selection. Malone has the solid NHL body of work but lacks the personal accolades. Yakushev is the opposite, he has the accolades and success internationally and domestically, but he lacked the opportunity to consistently play against the world's best.
Dutch Gainor and Donald Audette are the two most offensive-minded players on our lines. Audette provides grit much like Rota and eclipsed 30 goals twice. Gainor had a higher peak finishing 9th in points one year but unfortunately his career was not as lengthy as Audette's, due in part to his drinking issues. Gainor was dynamic at his height but he lacks the longevity Audette brought throughout a low-scoring era. Peak vs. Longevity, but I think Audette's consistency holds up here.
Garnish's second line may be difficult to play against with its composition (recurring theme?) but I feel really lacks a scoring punch with Hunter's presence. With just Audette to finish I don't think this line compares offensively to my own. I really think this line reads more like a bottom six one, minus Audette's goal-scoring prowess, and I'm not sure what Hunter is going to do when his linemates are tightly checked by one of my bottom six lines and he will be expected to create offensively. My second line on the other hand contains three players who are all capable of creating offensively while on the ice, without sacrificing a two-way presence that isn't so strong in my top line.
Mike Walton vs. Christian Bordeleau
Overlap between these two makes comparison pretty straightforward.
Bordeleau- 205 NHL GP 103 pts (.50 PPG)
412 WHA GP 504 pts (1.22 PPG)
Walton- 588 NHL GP 488 pts (.76 PPG)
211 WHA GP 281 pts (1.33PPG)
Bordeleau was considered too small for the NHL and only had one successful NHL season eclipsing 20 goals and 50 points. Walton did this three times throughout his NHL career, which doubles Bordeleau's, and there's a clear difference between their resumes.
Even if we ignore their NHL careers, despite Bordeleau's longer career with more points in the WHA, Walton's shorter WHA career was more distinguished. Walton is a member of the WHA HOF, Bordeleau is not; Walton has one 2nd AST appearance and one WHA scoring title, Bordeleau never made a WHA all-star team nor won any trophies. He did however win the Avco Cup once and SC one, Walton won the SC twice but never the WHA finals.
Walton has a clear advantage over Bordeleau from the same era and I believe my punishing defenders will make life particularly difficult for the diminutive pivot who leads the Pride's attack.
Let's look at our 'glue guys' next which are relatively close in overlapping.
Johnny Sheppard and Glenn Brydson
Brydson- 299 NHL GP 135 PTS (.45PPG)
Sheppard- 308 NHL GP 126 PTS (.41PPG)
Brydson is described as the better two-way forward and really effective in the corners. These two players are pretty even but without the same size challenges Sheppard faces Brydson will have an easier time in this role than Sheppard. Sheppard has two top 10 assist finishes however and I think he was probably the better scorer than Brydson.
Mishakov vs Connelly
I have a hard time knowing what to make of Mishakov. Pelletier chalks him up to a nice amount of goals throughout his Soviet international career but that's as much as I understand. He didn't make all-star teams for the Soviet league, he didn't make any directorate's choice ASTs during his international career either. His most notable contributions seem to be his grittiness and toughness, but I believe that's why you have Brydson. Connelly's scoring record is documented by a few excellent WHA seasons and one NHL season which saw him 4th in goals.
Mishakov seems to have some nice goal-scoring totals, assuming Pelletier's 48gs in 91GP is accurate, but does this really hold up the same compared to a few top 10 WHA finishes and one in the NHL?
I think Walton is the best player in this series and he and Connelly are each a clear step above their counterparts in Bourdeleau and Mishakov. Brydson and Mishakov provide a more physical presence to Garnish's top line but I believe that is the only favorable difference between it and Quad City's.
Second Lines
Gainor-Yakushev-Rota
Hunter-Malone-Audette
My first thing I notice when looking at this is Dave Hunter's presence in Garnish's top six. With the reasoning of providing a defensive presence this line features a player who never reached 50 points. On my end, Darcy Rota is on my line to provide a gritty, two-way presence. He can fill the role Hunter does, but with much greater offensive ability scoring twenty goals nine times to Hunter's one.
Viktor Yakushev and Greg Malone are both solid two-way centers. It's difficult to compare their very different career paths so it's just worth noting they both contribute to their lines effectively. Malone posted some solid numbers over the course of his NHL career and Yakushev was quite distinguished for his day with numerous Soviet All-star selections and a WC all-star selection. Malone has the solid NHL body of work but lacks the personal accolades. Yakushev is the opposite, he has the accolades and success internationally and domestically, but he lacked the opportunity to consistently play against the world's best.
Dutch Gainor and Donald Audette are the two most offensive-minded players on our lines. Audette provides grit much like Rota and eclipsed 30 goals twice. Gainor had a higher peak finishing 9th in points one year but unfortunately his career was not as lengthy as Audette's, due in part to his drinking issues. Gainor was dynamic at his height but he lacks the longevity Audette brought throughout a low-scoring era. Peak vs. Longevity, but I think Audette's consistency holds up here.
Garnish's second line may be difficult to play against with its composition (recurring theme?) but I feel really lacks a scoring punch with Hunter's presence. With just Audette to finish I don't think this line compares offensively to my own. I really think this line reads more like a bottom six one, minus Audette's goal-scoring prowess, and I'm not sure what Hunter is going to do when his linemates are tightly checked by one of my bottom six lines and he will be expected to create offensively. My second line on the other hand contains three players who are all capable of creating offensively while on the ice, without sacrificing a two-way presence that isn't so strong in my top line.
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Rob Scuderi
Registered User
- Sep 3, 2009
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tony d
Registered User
I thank Bring Back Scuderi for the comparisons, he raises a lot of solid points but I'm here to argue my side of the series:
Bourdelau may not have the career numbers than Walton has but he does have more 100 point seasons between the NHL and WHA (3 to 1), also his assist numbers per game where better than Walton's (0.62 Assists Per Game in the 2 leagues to Walton's 0.55).
You also talk about size issues, yes Bordelau is small but Walton is smaller (Bordelau is listed at 172 points on hockeyreference.com while Walton is listed at 170 points on the same site. I expect Mishakov and Brydson to provide grit so to help the smaller centre.
Mishakov certainly has turned out to be an interesting case on my team but I expect him to be my main goal scorer and add a bit of grit. I think Connelly will be your goal scorer but he's also small and I think his lack of size could hurt him against the grit that my 1st line provides.
Brydson was drafted by me for his ability to play in the corners, he also can provide some offense. As you said Brydson is better in that role than Sheppard would be and I agree with you.
In closing I prefer my 1st line to yours, it provides scoring and more grit than what yours does. A 1st line with grit should suit me well in this series and I think Bourdelau and Mishakov will put up similar, if not better offensive numbers than Walton and Connelly.
Now to the 2nd line:
The reason for Dave Hunter's drafting by me was to provide grit, I fully expect him to do that against your lineup. Yes his offensive numbers are lacking when you compare them to Rota's (Who me and Dave drafted last year, he was a really good pick for us then and you now) but I prefer his grit and think he should be fine.
You mentioned about Malone not having the personal accolades that Yakushev had, that maybe because Malone played his full career in the NHL while Yakushev played his in the Soviet League, so there may been a smaller pool of talent for Yakushev to play against.
Audette was drafted by me to be a goal scorer but I'm glad to see he also has a gritty game. I expect him and Dave Hunter to run rough shod over your 2nd line. Gainor looks like he'll be the offensive focus of your 2nd line but as you said longevity is not on his side like it was for Audette.
Again I prefer my 2nd line to yours, it seems to be built better all around than yours, yes Hunter's lack of offensive numbers may hurt him but other than that it's a solid 2nd line.
Thanks for a fair debate so far BBS, I look forward to future debates with you over my bottom 6 as well as our defense, goaltending and coaching.
Bourdelau may not have the career numbers than Walton has but he does have more 100 point seasons between the NHL and WHA (3 to 1), also his assist numbers per game where better than Walton's (0.62 Assists Per Game in the 2 leagues to Walton's 0.55).
You also talk about size issues, yes Bordelau is small but Walton is smaller (Bordelau is listed at 172 points on hockeyreference.com while Walton is listed at 170 points on the same site. I expect Mishakov and Brydson to provide grit so to help the smaller centre.
Mishakov certainly has turned out to be an interesting case on my team but I expect him to be my main goal scorer and add a bit of grit. I think Connelly will be your goal scorer but he's also small and I think his lack of size could hurt him against the grit that my 1st line provides.
Brydson was drafted by me for his ability to play in the corners, he also can provide some offense. As you said Brydson is better in that role than Sheppard would be and I agree with you.
In closing I prefer my 1st line to yours, it provides scoring and more grit than what yours does. A 1st line with grit should suit me well in this series and I think Bourdelau and Mishakov will put up similar, if not better offensive numbers than Walton and Connelly.
Now to the 2nd line:
The reason for Dave Hunter's drafting by me was to provide grit, I fully expect him to do that against your lineup. Yes his offensive numbers are lacking when you compare them to Rota's (Who me and Dave drafted last year, he was a really good pick for us then and you now) but I prefer his grit and think he should be fine.
You mentioned about Malone not having the personal accolades that Yakushev had, that maybe because Malone played his full career in the NHL while Yakushev played his in the Soviet League, so there may been a smaller pool of talent for Yakushev to play against.
Audette was drafted by me to be a goal scorer but I'm glad to see he also has a gritty game. I expect him and Dave Hunter to run rough shod over your 2nd line. Gainor looks like he'll be the offensive focus of your 2nd line but as you said longevity is not on his side like it was for Audette.
Again I prefer my 2nd line to yours, it seems to be built better all around than yours, yes Hunter's lack of offensive numbers may hurt him but other than that it's a solid 2nd line.
Thanks for a fair debate so far BBS, I look forward to future debates with you over my bottom 6 as well as our defense, goaltending and coaching.
Rob Scuderi
Registered User
- Sep 3, 2009
- 3,378
- 2
Thanks for the rebuttal Tony. I'll respond to a few of your points and hopefully take a look at our bottom six groups.
Good call on Walton's weight. You're right, even though he was taller, he was pretty lean like Bordeleau. If you look at the basics (LoH, Wikipedia, etc.) you can find mentions of both players being undersized. The question is do either of us have a defensive group to take advantage of this flaw, seeing as both of these players were our first picks and the key to our attacks. Bordeleau's most appealing matchup, physicality-wise, would be against Boris Mironov and Poul Popiel-ouch. I haven't looked at your D extensively yet so you can catch me up or I can just wait until I get there.
Also while I cannot refute that Bordeleau had a higher assist per game in the WHA, I think we can shed some understanding on the disparity between their 100 point WHA seasons. Bordeleau hopped over to the WHA at 25 with 7 WHA seasons played total. Walton didn't leave the NHL until he was older at 29 and only played 3 seasons total so his WHA career should seemingly lack the depth of Bordeleau's who played in the league throughout his prime. If Walton managed to be regarded as a WHA HoFer in only half the time Bordeleau played in the league then you know he must have been doing things at a higher level. I think we can show this too even if we grant your claim Bordeleau has more 100 point seasons.
Bordeleau eclipsed 100 pts and each time he was 3rd on his team in points. His first 100 point year came playing with Bobby Hull and then his second and third came with Marc Tardif and Real Cloutier. Walton had only 3 WHA seasons total, where he led his team in scoring each year despite being 29, 30, and 31. His first saw him win the scoring title with 117 points and he even outscored his teammates by 20 points his first two WHA seasons. If you look at their post-season success too I think Walton further separates himself. Bordelau won the SC as a rookie and had one good NHL post-season with Chicago, but his effiorts in the WHA playoffs saw him score 50 points in 53 games. Walton a few successful NHL post-seasons and won two Stanley Cups but his performance in the WHA playoffs really show off his dominance. He scored a staggering 35 points in 23 games. His 20 goals in 23 games resemble Bordeleau's WHA post-season PPG pace itself. Walton had a much better NHL career, we didn't talk about that difference extensively, and accomplished more in the WHA than Bordeleau, in half the time as well, so I really don't think Bordeleau has much a case to outscore Walton.
You're spot on about the grit though, Mishakov and Brydson really do provide Bordeleau a gritty and two-way presence that's pretty intriguing when you're able to match them up against my top line.
Good call on Walton's weight. You're right, even though he was taller, he was pretty lean like Bordeleau. If you look at the basics (LoH, Wikipedia, etc.) you can find mentions of both players being undersized. The question is do either of us have a defensive group to take advantage of this flaw, seeing as both of these players were our first picks and the key to our attacks. Bordeleau's most appealing matchup, physicality-wise, would be against Boris Mironov and Poul Popiel-ouch. I haven't looked at your D extensively yet so you can catch me up or I can just wait until I get there.
Also while I cannot refute that Bordeleau had a higher assist per game in the WHA, I think we can shed some understanding on the disparity between their 100 point WHA seasons. Bordeleau hopped over to the WHA at 25 with 7 WHA seasons played total. Walton didn't leave the NHL until he was older at 29 and only played 3 seasons total so his WHA career should seemingly lack the depth of Bordeleau's who played in the league throughout his prime. If Walton managed to be regarded as a WHA HoFer in only half the time Bordeleau played in the league then you know he must have been doing things at a higher level. I think we can show this too even if we grant your claim Bordeleau has more 100 point seasons.
Bordeleau eclipsed 100 pts and each time he was 3rd on his team in points. His first 100 point year came playing with Bobby Hull and then his second and third came with Marc Tardif and Real Cloutier. Walton had only 3 WHA seasons total, where he led his team in scoring each year despite being 29, 30, and 31. His first saw him win the scoring title with 117 points and he even outscored his teammates by 20 points his first two WHA seasons. If you look at their post-season success too I think Walton further separates himself. Bordelau won the SC as a rookie and had one good NHL post-season with Chicago, but his effiorts in the WHA playoffs saw him score 50 points in 53 games. Walton a few successful NHL post-seasons and won two Stanley Cups but his performance in the WHA playoffs really show off his dominance. He scored a staggering 35 points in 23 games. His 20 goals in 23 games resemble Bordeleau's WHA post-season PPG pace itself. Walton had a much better NHL career, we didn't talk about that difference extensively, and accomplished more in the WHA than Bordeleau, in half the time as well, so I really don't think Bordeleau has much a case to outscore Walton.
You're spot on about the grit though, Mishakov and Brydson really do provide Bordeleau a gritty and two-way presence that's pretty intriguing when you're able to match them up against my top line.
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Rob Scuderi
Registered User
- Sep 3, 2009
- 3,378
- 2
The Third Lines
Sylvain Turgeon - Yanic Perreault - JP Dumont
Alex Kaleta- Larry Popein - Gerry Couture
An offensive minded third line that will be employed to win games versus a defensive-minded third line meant to match up against scoring lines. Different compositions so I'll just look at it positionally.
Kaleta vs. Turgeon
Alex Kaleta was a speedy playmaker with two-way ability. Sylvain Turgeon was a goal-scorer but I'm unsure of his defensive ability. LoH says he battled for position so he probably wasn't as soft as Killer Kaleta but can he play a defensive role the way the passive Kaleta can?
Also I think its quite possible Kaleta was the better scorer (and best on either third line). If we look at their best five percentage scoring years:
Kaleta: .75, .61, .50, .46, .42
Turgeon: .64, .60, .59, .40, .36
Dumont: .67, .58, .57, .56, .42
Popein vs. Perreault
There's no question on the offensive side between these two. Larry Popein never reached 20 goals, something Yanic Perreault did 7 times. Perreault also boasts immense faceoff ability but I believe Popein was the better defensive player. Popein was also a physical player, something I'm not sure Perreault was. Popein should be just as effective in a defensive capacity as Perreault is in the pursuit of a goal late in the game with his faceoff ability and solid scoring record.
Couture vs. Dumont
Another case where J.P. Dumont is surely the better scoring player between these two. The playmaker fits well with two scorers but he's not much of a physical or defensive player, right? Gerry Couture was a decent goal-scorer for his day and played in a defensive role on some talented Detroit squads. He also brings some size to compliment his two linemates.
Ultimately I think the effectiveness of Garnish's third line will depend on who has the last change. I think it's weaker defensively than both of the Pride's top two lines and could pose a very favorable matchup when I have last change. My third line on the other hand is made to stand up against opposing scorers and I think they have decent enough offensive ability to take advantage of a poor defensive group.
I'm gonna move to defense for now.
Al Dewsbury vs Keith Brown
Al Dewsbury is my #1 and brings a lot to my group. Size, physicality, two-way play (4 times top 10 points by a defender), and he was an all-star in his day. Keith Brown was a solid two-way defender who scored over 40 points twice. Brown only received one all-star team vote as a 30-year old and I think Dewsbury is the stronger of the two.
Rick Lapointe vs Don Sweeney
Don Sweeney rounds out my top pair and is a stay-at-home defender who is especially effective on the PK. Rick Lapointe was described as more of a two-way player with a physical style and decent passing. Sweeney managed just one AST team vote in his career, whereas Lapointe received 8 in 1980-81, and a single Norris vote the same year. While Sweeney is physical himself, and not ineffective at moving the puck out of his zone, I think Lapointe is the more dynamic player. Sweeney did almost double Lapointe's career though so there is a lot to be said for his ability to last so long with a relatively simple style. I prefer the Mallard's first pair but Lapointe may be the better #2 here.
Dmitri Mironov vs Jeff Norton
The PMDs of our second pairs, who overlapped for the most part. Jeff Norton has a slightly higher PPG pace than Dmitri Mironov despite playing more games and he has the edge from an offensive perspective. Mironov did make an ASG however, something Norton did not. At his peak Mironov received a vote for the Norris and a handful of AST votes, again something Norton didn't accomplish. Norton gives Garnish the edge on the PP, but for ES I'll take Mironov's stronger two-way play over Norton.
Tom Reid vs Harold Snepsts
Both one-way players who focused on their own end. Tom Reid was a solid stay-at-home guy picked up 7 AST votes during his best year. Harold Snepsts is a more punishing defensive defender who made it into two ASGs due to his toughness. He only received 2 AST votes during his best season. Both of these players will bolster our PK units but I think with Mironov's two-way presence and Snepsts aggression that Quad City's pair comes out on top again.
Pekka Marjamaki vs Poul Popiel
Both of these players will see top PP time. Pekka Marjamaki has 1 WC AST selection and 1 WC Best Defenseman award. He scored 6 goals in that tournament but I have no idea about his defensive ability. Poul Popiel has two 2nd WHA AST selections. He was a consistent producer in that league and was not a one-way defender.
Randy Ladouceur vs Boris Mironov
Randy Ladouceur was a solid physical defensive defender who's career lasted 930 games. Boris Mironov was also a very physical defender, however he brought more of an offensive game. At his peak, he received 1 Norris vote, and 2 AST votes. Mironov is a far more dynamic player than Ladouceur who still provided a physical game, Ladouceur's biggest asset, and I believe this concludes a sweep of superior Mallard pairs.
Lapointe over Sweeney muddies who's top pair is superior but I believe the Mallards second and third pairs are better than the Pride's. Garnish may have the edge on PP point options but again I think my group holds up against them overall.
Sylvain Turgeon - Yanic Perreault - JP Dumont
Alex Kaleta- Larry Popein - Gerry Couture
An offensive minded third line that will be employed to win games versus a defensive-minded third line meant to match up against scoring lines. Different compositions so I'll just look at it positionally.
Kaleta vs. Turgeon
Alex Kaleta was a speedy playmaker with two-way ability. Sylvain Turgeon was a goal-scorer but I'm unsure of his defensive ability. LoH says he battled for position so he probably wasn't as soft as Killer Kaleta but can he play a defensive role the way the passive Kaleta can?
Also I think its quite possible Kaleta was the better scorer (and best on either third line). If we look at their best five percentage scoring years:
Kaleta: .75, .61, .50, .46, .42
Turgeon: .64, .60, .59, .40, .36
Dumont: .67, .58, .57, .56, .42
Popein vs. Perreault
There's no question on the offensive side between these two. Larry Popein never reached 20 goals, something Yanic Perreault did 7 times. Perreault also boasts immense faceoff ability but I believe Popein was the better defensive player. Popein was also a physical player, something I'm not sure Perreault was. Popein should be just as effective in a defensive capacity as Perreault is in the pursuit of a goal late in the game with his faceoff ability and solid scoring record.
Couture vs. Dumont
Another case where J.P. Dumont is surely the better scoring player between these two. The playmaker fits well with two scorers but he's not much of a physical or defensive player, right? Gerry Couture was a decent goal-scorer for his day and played in a defensive role on some talented Detroit squads. He also brings some size to compliment his two linemates.
Ultimately I think the effectiveness of Garnish's third line will depend on who has the last change. I think it's weaker defensively than both of the Pride's top two lines and could pose a very favorable matchup when I have last change. My third line on the other hand is made to stand up against opposing scorers and I think they have decent enough offensive ability to take advantage of a poor defensive group.
I'm gonna move to defense for now.
Al Dewsbury vs Keith Brown
Al Dewsbury is my #1 and brings a lot to my group. Size, physicality, two-way play (4 times top 10 points by a defender), and he was an all-star in his day. Keith Brown was a solid two-way defender who scored over 40 points twice. Brown only received one all-star team vote as a 30-year old and I think Dewsbury is the stronger of the two.
Rick Lapointe vs Don Sweeney
Don Sweeney rounds out my top pair and is a stay-at-home defender who is especially effective on the PK. Rick Lapointe was described as more of a two-way player with a physical style and decent passing. Sweeney managed just one AST team vote in his career, whereas Lapointe received 8 in 1980-81, and a single Norris vote the same year. While Sweeney is physical himself, and not ineffective at moving the puck out of his zone, I think Lapointe is the more dynamic player. Sweeney did almost double Lapointe's career though so there is a lot to be said for his ability to last so long with a relatively simple style. I prefer the Mallard's first pair but Lapointe may be the better #2 here.
Dmitri Mironov vs Jeff Norton
The PMDs of our second pairs, who overlapped for the most part. Jeff Norton has a slightly higher PPG pace than Dmitri Mironov despite playing more games and he has the edge from an offensive perspective. Mironov did make an ASG however, something Norton did not. At his peak Mironov received a vote for the Norris and a handful of AST votes, again something Norton didn't accomplish. Norton gives Garnish the edge on the PP, but for ES I'll take Mironov's stronger two-way play over Norton.
Tom Reid vs Harold Snepsts
Both one-way players who focused on their own end. Tom Reid was a solid stay-at-home guy picked up 7 AST votes during his best year. Harold Snepsts is a more punishing defensive defender who made it into two ASGs due to his toughness. He only received 2 AST votes during his best season. Both of these players will bolster our PK units but I think with Mironov's two-way presence and Snepsts aggression that Quad City's pair comes out on top again.
Pekka Marjamaki vs Poul Popiel
Both of these players will see top PP time. Pekka Marjamaki has 1 WC AST selection and 1 WC Best Defenseman award. He scored 6 goals in that tournament but I have no idea about his defensive ability. Poul Popiel has two 2nd WHA AST selections. He was a consistent producer in that league and was not a one-way defender.
Randy Ladouceur vs Boris Mironov
Randy Ladouceur was a solid physical defensive defender who's career lasted 930 games. Boris Mironov was also a very physical defender, however he brought more of an offensive game. At his peak, he received 1 Norris vote, and 2 AST votes. Mironov is a far more dynamic player than Ladouceur who still provided a physical game, Ladouceur's biggest asset, and I believe this concludes a sweep of superior Mallard pairs.
Lapointe over Sweeney muddies who's top pair is superior but I believe the Mallards second and third pairs are better than the Pride's. Garnish may have the edge on PP point options but again I think my group holds up against them overall.
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tony d
Registered User
Again a solid argument by Bring Back Scuderi, have enjoyed this debate thus far, it's been a fair one.
Kaleta vs. Turgeon:
From what I read Kaleta was a playmaking winger, those are always good to have. Don't know how effective that will be on this line as nor Popein or Couture read as very serious threats to score goals. Turgeon on the other hand is one of the better goal scorers on my team and is one of the best in this series.
Popein vs. Perreault:
Popein does have a decent defensive game which is good on a 3rd line but as you said his offensive numbers don't match up to Perreault's which is true. Perreault was drafted for his faceoff ability but to know he also scored 20 goals in a season 7 times to Popien's 0 makes me confident in this matchup.
Couture vs. Dumont:
Dumont will be the playmaker on this line. 3 seasons of 40 more assists will be a great asset on this line. Couture is more of a goal scorer but I'll take Dumont's assist numbers over Couture's goal numbers.
Overall: Yeah my checking line might not read as your customary checking line and more of a scoring line but I think Perreault's ability to win faceoffs and Turgeon's ability to play for posiiton will serve me quite well. A decided offensive advantage here should help me late in games where this line will be out.
Kaleta vs. Turgeon:
From what I read Kaleta was a playmaking winger, those are always good to have. Don't know how effective that will be on this line as nor Popein or Couture read as very serious threats to score goals. Turgeon on the other hand is one of the better goal scorers on my team and is one of the best in this series.
Popein vs. Perreault:
Popein does have a decent defensive game which is good on a 3rd line but as you said his offensive numbers don't match up to Perreault's which is true. Perreault was drafted for his faceoff ability but to know he also scored 20 goals in a season 7 times to Popien's 0 makes me confident in this matchup.
Couture vs. Dumont:
Dumont will be the playmaker on this line. 3 seasons of 40 more assists will be a great asset on this line. Couture is more of a goal scorer but I'll take Dumont's assist numbers over Couture's goal numbers.
Overall: Yeah my checking line might not read as your customary checking line and more of a scoring line but I think Perreault's ability to win faceoffs and Turgeon's ability to play for posiiton will serve me quite well. A decided offensive advantage here should help me late in games where this line will be out.
DaveG
Noted Jerk
Final:
Quad City tops Garnish in Game 6
Three stars:
1) Mike Walton
2) Christian Bordeleau
3) Wayne Connolly
Quad City tops Garnish in Game 6
Three stars:
1) Mike Walton
2) Christian Bordeleau
3) Wayne Connolly
tony d
Registered User
Many congrats to Bring Back Scuderi on his series win, best of luck to him for the rest of the playoffs.
Rob Scuderi
Registered User
- Sep 3, 2009
- 3,378
- 2
Well debated series and a tough loss for Garnish. This was a good series and I'd like to thank Tony for his hard-work.
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